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First baby born without a gender in Canada

No. Example: I'm talking to you without knowing your sex.

Kids normally do though. Been to primary school?


Children give a lot of shit about each other, but most importantly, how their peers perceive them, by the age of 7.

Let's assume the child is targeted for bullying, let's assume this actually causes problems for the child, let's assume for some reason the child turns out to be trans after all of this.

Do you think by the time this magical 7 years old rolls around the child will have an idea of their gender?
Do you think seven years from now there will be more tolerance and understanding?
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Yes? They're free to update the med card when the gender becomes apparent.
Their med card should have said their well-known biological sex to boot, and how do you know they'll have decided their gender by that time? Clearly not from their mother.

Also it's not jedi mind tricks, that's a really shitty analogy, and as far as I can tell the only people being irrational are people like you who are openly arguing with the trans people in this thread because you refuse to budge from your own biased, bigoted view point.
Biased, bigoted point of view.. Posting on whatever-ranks-high-on-your-shitlist sites.. You're the bully.. How inventive of you. And no trace in you mind that this parent might be causing their child harm? None at all?

Let's assume the child is targeted for bullying, let's assume this actually causes problems for the child, let's assume for some reason the child turns out to be trans after all of this.

Do you think by the time this magical 7 years old rolls around the child will have an idea of their gender?
Do you think seven years from now there will be more tolerance and understanding?
I sincerely hope. That does not make me accept what this parent has done to their child. Just as another parent.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Their med card should have said their well-known biological sex to boot, and how do you know they'll have decided their gender by that time? Clearly not from their mother.


Biased, bigoted point of view.. Posting on whatever-ranks-high-on-your-shitlist sites.. You're the bully.. How inventive of you. And no trace in you mind that this parent might be causing their child harm? None at all?
I mean you're the one in here referring to human beings as "it" and making assumptions that this "U" is somehow harmful.

If the kid is cis, cool, they will be acknowledged as such by everyone. If they turn out to be trans, then this is super helpful, as has been stated by the multiple trans people in this thread who have said something like this would have been a huge help and removed a lot of anxiety from identifying themselves.

Edit: and holy shit at "clearly not from their mother.". People can be non-binary. That's fine. And if this kid ends up non-binary, they're life will be harder because of a letter on their health card? Good lord, I'd think the discrimination faced by a non-binary individual would be way worse than any imaginary discrimination based on a letter on someone's health card.
 

keuja

Member
UoT gives no fucks

3010780.jpg

Sexual diversity studies? What the hell do you study in those classes? I'm always surprised at the diversity of subjects taught in NA universities.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Sexual diversity studies? What the hell do you study in those classes? I'm always surprised at the diversity of subjects taught in NA universities.
You study things like the very topic of this thread?

I specialized in disability history in college, and there's probably a fuck ton of people in this thread who will argue that "able-bodied" isn't a shitty problematic term. Studying sexual diversity goes back to studying the whole broad topic of this thread using historical examples and precedents.

Edit: for clarification, there are hundreds, if not thousands of academic journals/articles concerning sexual diversity dating back centuries.
 

Gnome

Member
The only real effect this will have is making the kids doctor ask "So what's down stairs?", and then only when it's necessary and I doubt a doctor would care about having to ask. Otherwise, the only other thing I can think of is possible awkward social interactions from people who are either ignorant or have an adverse reaction to the idea of not labeling sex. Anything more is just people making assumptions about the mother or the child that have no basis, because we don't know either of them.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Oh geez... This thread is a mess.

First off, the parent is not forcing the child's gender or sex. Their sex on government paper work is basically retracted and undisclosed, the U is not an actual sex. This was a decision made because the parent does not what their child to be raised within gendered norms. It does not harm to the child; and further more, for anyone who's concern about "well how will medics know their sex", they likely know. At least, they will know because I'm pretty sure a doctor will at some point look at the child's genitals or ask the parent what the child's sex organ is. So stop with the concern trolling.

Second, the child will know their gender around 3 to 5 years old. a lot of psychologists agree that it is around those ages when a child will set their gender. Any concern you might have about them being confused about their gender and possible psychological damage is, one, unwarranted, and two, completely ridiculous because they will likely know what their gender is before they even step foot in preschool. Once they know what gender they are, they can easily change those records to reflect it. Trust me, it's really frustrating and almost near impossible for a trans person to change their sex marker on government records. Having it "undetermined" makes it easier for them to change it.

Seriously, some of the reactions I'm seeing here for something extremely benign is stupid and hyperbolic. When a good amount of trans people in this forum are telling you that this is basically a whole lot of meh, it's a whole lot of meh. They are far more equip to understand these matter than what a lot of you think you understand. So maybe actually listen to them.

The only real effect this will have is making the kids doctor ask "So what's down stairs?", and then only when it's necessary and I doubt a doctor would care about having to ask. Otherwise, the only other thing I can think of is possible awkward social interactions from people who are either ignorant or have an adverse reaction to the idea of not labeling sex. Anything more is just people making assumptions about the mother or the child that have no basis, because we don't know either of them.

And that's basically the most that will come out of this child having a U on their sex label.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Oh geez... This thread is a mess.

First off, the parent is not forcing the child's gender or sex. Their sex on government paper work is basically retracted and undisclosed, the U is not an actual sex. This was a decision made because the parent does not what their child to be raised within gendered norms. It does not harm to the child; and further more, for anyone who's concern about "well how will medics know their sex", they likely know. At least, they will know because I'm pretty sure a doctor will at some point look at the child's genitals or ask the parent what the child's sex organ is. So stop with the concern trolling.

Second, the child will know their gender around 3 to 5 years old. a lot of psychologists agree that it is around those ages when a child will set their gender. Any concern you might have about them being confused about their gender and possible psychological damage is, one, unwarranted, and two, completely ridiculous because they will likely know what their gender is before they even step foot in preschool. Once they know what gender they are, they can easily change those records to reflect it. Trust me, it's really frustrating and almost near impossible for a trans person to change their sex marker on government records. Having it "undetermined" makes it easier for them to change it.

Seriously, the reactions I'm seeing here for something extremely benign is stupid and hyperbolic. When a good amount of trans people in this forum are telling you that this is basically a whole lot of meh, it's a whole lot of meh. They are far more equip to understand these matter than what a lot of you think you understand. So maybe actually listen to them.



And that's basically the most that will come out of this child having a U on their sex label.
A+++ post. You nailed it.

But I'm sure now that such an accurate post has been made, even more concern trolls and shitty "that poor kid" driveby posts are a certainty.
 

Laiza

Member
A+++ post. You nailed it.

But I'm sure now that such an accurate post has been made, even more concern trolls and shitty "that poor kid" driveby posts are a certainty.
Please, please don't jinx it.

Aw, hell, it's probably too late for that.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I mean you're the one in here referring to human beings as "it" and making assumptions that this "U" is somehow harmful.
I'm referring to a infant and in my mothertongue 'it' would be just as polite as 'they' in this case, so I do that mistake, occasionally, mea culpa. Either that, or I've grown as cynical as to think of humans as inanimate objects. /shrug

If the kid is cis, cool, they will be acknowledged as such by everyone. If they turn out to be trans, then this is super helpful, as has been stated by the multiple trans people in this thread who have said something like this would have been a huge help and removed a lot of anxiety from identifying themselves.
Wait, I'm not saying the parent should force the kid into a gender, I'm saying the parent has acted irresponsibly (highly so) forcing the child from day 0 into a (social status) of being genderless, nay, sex-less. The kid will decide their gender - we people get to decide our genders, sooner or later, and I do recognize it's much more difficult for trans people to achieve that, for a bunch of psyche as well as social reasons. The responsible parenting, IMO, would be to raise the kid ambi-gender-ous, and if the kid shows one day that they are trans - then the parents can be of support. Anything else can be detrimental to a kid's psyche (yes, that includes fathers trying to raise their sons as 'machos' or mothers trying to 'princess' their daughters).
 

MazeHaze

Banned
I'm referring to a infant and in my mothertongue 'it' would be just as polite as 'they' in this case, so I do that mistake, occasionally, mea culpa. Either that, or I've grown as cynical as to think of humans as inanimate objects. /shrug


Wait, I'm not saying the parent should force the kid into a gender, I'm saying the parent has acted irresponsibly (highly so) forcing the child from day 0 into a (social status) of being genderless, nay, sex-less. The kid will decide their gender - we people get to decide our genders, sooner or later, and I do recognize it's much more difficult for trans people to achieve that, for a bunch of psyche as well as social reasons. The responsible parenting, IMO, would be to raise the kid ambi-gender-ous, and if the kid shows one day that they are trans - then the parents can be of support. Anything else can ultra destructive to a kid's psyche (yes, that includes fathers trying to raise their sons as 'machos' or mothers trying to 'princess' their daughters).
Why do you assume that you know what's best for this child more than the non-binary person who birthed them though? They aren't forcing the child to be genderless, they're refusing to assign them a gender. The child will have a gender, most likely before school-age even. What is the problem here?
 
This may be a better question to ask in the old Trans 101 thread someone made a few months ago, but I guess I'll ask it here since it sort of relates. How would naming work? I assume you should default to a genderless or made up name? That way, if the child later in life is determined to be one gender or another, or neither, it is easier?

Also, thanks to all of you who are trying to explain this subject to those that don't know much about it.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
This may be a better question to ask in the old Trans 101 thread someone made a few months ago, but I guess I'll ask it here since it sort of relates. How would naming work? I assume you should default to a genderless or made up name? That way, if the child later in life is determined to be one gender or another, or neither, it is easier?

Also, thanks to all of you who are trying to explain this subject to those that don't know much about it.
In this case, the name is not gender specific. And thank you for being willing to ask questions and educate yourself. It's really awesome, and encouraged :)
 
This may be a better question to ask in the old Trans 101 thread someone made a few months ago, but I guess I'll ask it here since it sort of relates. How would naming work? I assume you should default to a genderless or made up name? That way, if the child later in life is determined to be one gender or another, or neither, it is easier?

Also, thanks to all of you who are trying to explain this subject to those that don't know much about it.


No name probably. Child can determine that later lol. It is very hard to find gender neutral names.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
This may be a better question to ask in the old Trans 101 thread someone made a few months ago, but I guess I'll ask it here since it sort of relates. How would naming work? I assume you should default to a genderless or made up name? That way, if the child later in life is determined to be one gender or another, or neither, it is easier?

Also, thanks to all of you who are trying to explain this subject to those that don't know much about it.

You would assume correctly if the parent is aware about the reality their child might be trans. There's thousands of names that are used for both genders, like Alex, Casey, Gale, Max, and so on.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
No name probably. Child can determine that later lol. It is very hard to find gender neutral names.
Nice cute hot take there. Sure, why not make a joke out of something that many people take very seriously even in the face of extreme adversity, even on generally progressive places like GAF.

Fuck it though, right? It's for the lulz, and anyone who disagrees is a snowflake

/S

Edit: just saw your edit. Tracy, Lee, Joe, Stef, Layne, etc, these are just off the top of my head. It's not hard, and there are dozens.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Why do you assume that you know what's best for this child more than the non-binary person who birthed them though?
Because (1) I doubt that that parent actually grew up as a 'sex U' individual in their records - they most likely established their administrative gender identity at a much later age, and (2) I have two kids in primary school and have to take action on a bunch of intra-peer-groups turmoils on a monthly, if not weekly, basis, to even being to imagine what would happen if my kids' med records were of a 'sex U' kind, and/or my family had been in the newspapres for that just a few years ago.

They aren't forcing the child to be genderless, they're refusing to assign them a gender. The child will have a gender, most likely before school-age even. What is the problem here?
If they do that - great. Perhaps I'm more of a pessimist than I'd like to admit to myself. Either way, I wish that kid the best of luck in life, and I hope their parent started leading their own battles (at least until the kid turned of a fighting age).
 

Audioboxer

Member
I though sex was determined at birth, but you could choose your gender. Guess I have more to learn after all.

No, that is indeed the tldr version of it. Sex is biological and therefore observable/testable. Gender is what you associate with and may require longer to become clear as brain development needs to progress. When your sex isn't what gender you associate with that leads to gender dysphoria which is a medical diagnosis and can be treated. There are other medical conditions which can occur around sex too.

Wiki as you'd expect sums it up decently well

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] non-binary, or gender-nonconforming. In some cases, an individual may have biological sex characteristics that complicate sex assignment, and the person may be intersex.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

The parents and lawyer believe all legal documentation should have sex removed from it, which is causing debate. From the BBC website, to this topic to even the activists own website there is a lot of conflating sex and gender. Rather than what I think is productive which is being clear gender can be constructed from sex, and it's then about how that is handled rather than interchanging the two at will to act as if they are the same. When people do that that's how we get to people saying "they just want to remove gender from things until the child develops", when it's sex they are asking to be removed. For reasons that should be clear the few legal documents that exist to identify a person do NOT include gender in them. It's completely reasonable to say a babies gender is not known at birth regardless of the statistical odds of sex aligning with gender. You cannot just make assumptions because that is precisely how you can get to situations where you're not helping someone who doesn't align. Which is why many parents try to keep an open mind and nurture appropriately for the small % chance their kid doesn't align with their biological sex.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Because (1) I doubt that that parent actually grew up as a 'sex U' individual in their records - they most likely established their administrative gender identity at a much later age, and (2) I have two kids in primary school and have to take action on a bunch of intra-peer-groups turmoils on a monthly, if not weekly, basis, to even being to imagine what would happen if my kids' med records were of a 'sex U' kind, and/or my family had been in the newspapres for that just a few years ago.


If they do that - great. Perhaps I'm more of a pessimist than I'd like to admit to myself. Either way, I wish that kid the best of luck in life, and I hope their parent started leading their own battles (at least until the kid turned a fighting age).
The parent didn't grow up as a "U" thats the whole reason they are doing this. And they didn't establish a gender, they are non-binary. Maybe read the fucking article before interjecting your ignorant assumptions and hot takes. Also, they openly stated that they will "do that". Maybe you should read the 3 paragraphs about the subject you're criticizing before you spew a bunch of bullshit and claim you care about it so much.
 
you guys have diginal records?

Quebec is still so behind

Yeah we have digital records in Ontario. It's called E-Health. Though to be fair, the entire program has been riddled with scandals and incompetencies since its very inception in 2008. But that's thats normal of any new government program.

As of 2017 though it works and is up and running across the entire province. Though the E-Health Agency fell a little behind on digitizing records since they were suppose to have full coverage as of 2015, but as of today only sit at somewhere over 2/3rd coverage
 
Because (1) I doubt that that parent actually grew up as a 'sex U' individual in their records - they most likely established their administrative gender identity at a much later age, and (2) I have two kids in primary school and have to take action on a bunch of intra-peer-groups turmoils on a monthly, if not weekly, basis, to even being to imagine what would happen if my kids' med records were of a 'sex U' kind, and/or my family had been in the newspapres for that just a few years ago.


If they do that - great. Perhaps I'm more of a pessimist than I'd like to admit to myself. Either way, I wish that kid the best of luck in life, and I hope their parent started leading their own battles (at least until the kid turned of a fighting age).

No, you're right. If the kid decides on a gender the parent will punish them, that's how it will work.
 
Public awareness seems to increase the rate of gender dysphoria.

"The number of children referred to the NHS with gender identity issues has increased more than tenfold over the past six years."
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-increase-tenfold-in-six-years-a6868306.html

"While gender dysphoria appears to be rare, the number of people being diagnosed with the condition is increasing, due to growing public awareness."
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Like a social experiment with your kids gone wrong.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
The parent didn't grow up as a "U" thats the whole reason they are doing this.
And they know it's good because? Apparently being the first 'sex U' in the world gets you (read: the parent) the media attention and then what?

And they didn't establish a gender, they are non-binary.
I said an 'administrative gender' as in how the person presented themselves for all administrative purposes - what their social records say.

Maybe read the fucking article before interjecting your ignorant assumptions and hot takes.
I have.

Also, they openly stated that they will "do that".
Yes, they have. Ironically, the parent was complaining about the troubles of having to change their docs but now Searyl will have to change docs *for sure*, unless 'sex U' was ok for the rest of their life (and the chances for that are?)

Maybe you should read the 3 paragraphs about the subject you're criticizing before you spew a bunch of bullshit and claim you care about it so much.
Perhaps I do?
 

Ketkat

Member
Public awareness seems to increase the rate of gender dysphoria. .

You mean there's a greater amount of diagnoses of it. The same amount of people have gender dysphoria, parents just know what to look for now and help their kids get treatment/socially transition.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
And they know it's good because? Apparently being the first 'sex U' in the world gets you (read: the parent) the media attention and then what?


I said an 'administrative gender' as in how the person presented themselves for all administrative purposes - what their social records say.


I have.


Yes, they have. Ironically, the parent was complaining about the troubles of having to change their docs but now Searyl will have to change docs *for sure*, unless 'sex U' was ok for the rest of their life (and the chances for that are?)


Perhaps I do?

The parent is making this decision based off of their own life experience. You know, like how everyone makes decisions.

Also, I think it's much easier to change from unassigned than from male to female or vice versa, as has been pointed out by multiple people, including those who have identified as trans in this thread and confirmed this. Again, the whole reason they are doing this.
 

Alienfan

Member
Public awareness seems to increase the rate of gender dysphoria.


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-increase-tenfold-in-six-years-a6868306.html


http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Like a social experiment with your kids gone wrong.

It's not more, just more people report it as society becomes more accepting. Kind of like how statistics on gay people increased after same sex marriage passed, that doesn't mean there's more gay people, just fewer people are scared / ashamed of coming out when they see society at large is more accepting.
 

Snakeyes

Member
The health card says "Sex", not "Gender". Sex is a defined physical trait (unless you're a hermaphrodite), so the document should reflect whatever sex the child was born with. If they end up being trans, they can go through the necessary procedures to get it changed to match the gender they identify with. As of right now, however, the child's sex is not undefined.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Public awareness seems to increase the rate of gender dysphoria.


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-increase-tenfold-in-six-years-a6868306.html


http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Like a social experiment with your kids gone wrong.

Michael-Scott-Failing-to-Hold-In-Laughter.gif


Bloody hell, mate. It's because people are becoming more accepting and understanding, and trans people becoming more empowered to talk about themselves.

We know more about trans people now than what we knew 10 years ago. Medically speaking, we can diagnose gender dysphoria better now than we could in the past because of more studies, research, and having trans people open up.
 
You mean there's a greater amount of diagnoses of it. The same amount of people have gender dysphoria, parents just know what to look for now and help their kids get treatment/socially transition.

Yea sure.
See this is why we have to be clear on what causes this condition. High correlation with teaching this to infants and gender dysphoria then pulling some conclusion out the ass is like playing games with kids to me.
 

MazeHaze

Banned
Yea sure.
See this is why we have to be clear on what causes this condition. High correlation with teaching this to infants and gender dysphoria then pulling some conclusion out the ass is like playing games with kids to me.
What? Are you saying being transgender is a choice that's being pushed on people? Because if so, you're an ignorant monster.
 

Laiza

Member
Yea sure.
See this is why we have to be clear on what causes this condition. High correlation with teaching this to infants and gender dysphoria then pulling some conclusion out the ass is like playing games with kids to me.
'Kay.

This another alt account?

Hard not to be suspicious in this thread.
 
this shit is all an unhelpful distraction, and this isn't being done in the interest of the kid. the kid is being used to send a message, that's all.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Yea sure.
See this is why we have to be clear on what causes this condition. High correlation with teaching this to infants and gender dysphoria then pulling some conclusion out the ass is like playing games with kids to me.

Gee, if only there was someone who can tell if someone truly has gender dysphoria...

Some kind of professional who spent years, maybe even a decade or more, of learning, researching and studying to learn how to diagnose it...

Hmmm..

1.png
 

Keri

Member
I think myself and others are looking at this from a clearly cis perspective. For most people, gender is not a complicated subject and it's not something that is thought about very significantly, at a young age. For most of us, our parents identified us as little boys or little girls and we skipped along our merry ways. While this process of self-discovery is helpful for a trans child, for a cis-person it's significantly more complicated than what we're use to and it seems like it could lead to a child who otherwise wouldn't have had a problem regarding gender, being bullied or treated as an outsider.

For the vast majority of children, the easiest and simplest thing to do is to raise them as the gender that matches their biological sex (but to teach them they do not have to follow stereotypes). It's only a small percentage for which this additional process of gender neutrality will be beneficial.

Having thought about it more, I just think the parents need to take steps, to reduce the likelihood that others will treat their child differently, for being gender neutral. If the child chooses their gender prior to preschool, it will probably be OK. And, as long as the parents are open with the child about their biological sex and the way others view gender, I think the child will be prepared to deal with other kids, so they're not blindsided when other children ask if they're a boy or girl. Once you reduce the risk of being bullied or treated differently by other children, then the benefit to the small population of trans children clearly outweighs the lengthier process for cis-children.
 
What? Are you saying being transgender is a choice that's being pushed on people? Because if so, you're an ignorant monster.

Condition>>>magic>>>Choice
High Correlation>>>magic>>> Pushed on

Ok that will be my last contribution to this thread to sleepy for these attacks anyway.
 
Oh geez... This thread is a mess.

First off, the parent is not forcing the child's gender or sex. Their sex on government paper work is basically retracted and undisclosed, the U is not an actual sex. This was a decision made because the parent does not what their child to be raised within gendered norms. It does not harm to the child; and further more, for anyone who's concern about "well how will medics know their sex", they likely know. At least, they will know because I'm pretty sure a doctor will at some point look at the child's genitals or ask the parent what the child's sex organ is. So stop with the concern trolling.

Second, the child will know their gender around 3 to 5 years old. a lot of psychologists agree that it is around those ages when a child will set their gender. Any concern you might have about them being confused about their gender and possible psychological damage is, one, unwarranted, and two, completely ridiculous because they will likely know what their gender is before they even step foot in preschool. Once they know what gender they are, they can easily change those records to reflect it. Trust me, it's really frustrating and almost near impossible for a trans person to change their sex marker on government records. Having it "undetermined" makes it easier for them to change it.

Seriously, some of the reactions I'm seeing here for something extremely benign is stupid and hyperbolic. When a good amount of trans people in this forum are telling you that this is basically a whole lot of meh, it's a whole lot of meh. They are far more equip to understand these matter than what a lot of you think you understand. So maybe actually listen to them.

Yeah but what about the lowercase name?
 
I love that someone argued that gender dysphoria is rising because people are being taught to be trans. Did you know that diabetes is rising too? Must be people being taught to be diabetic :v
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Raising kids is crazy. My worst fear is somehow psychologically damaging my kids and making their life miserable. Then you have people critizing and/or mocking every decision you make.

I have no doubt the mother is trying to do what's best for the kid based on their own life. Will it ultimately hurt or help or not make any difference who the hell knows!
 

hoserx

Member
I love that someone argued that gender dysphoria is rising because people are being taught to be trans. Did you know that diabetes is rising too? Must be people being taught to be diabetic :v

Have you watched television, or browsed the internet and noticed what sort of foods and drinks are marketed to people?
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Except they're not, these folks aren't denying sex exists they're just acknowledging that in current society not enough people give a shit enough about gender issues so they'll just see the F or M and go girl/boy and treat the child accordingly.

Thus this is a quick an easy way to take that away.

By the way, how do you treat children accordingly when it comes to their gender? The only difference I would be aware of is based on biological differences (separate by sex for sports, for instance, or explaining issues about sexuality / body functions, which also differ by sex, not by gender).
 

Audioboxer

Member
By the way, how do you treat children accordingly when it comes to their gender? The only difference I would be aware of is based on biological differences (separate by sex for sports, for instance, or explaining issues about sexuality / body functions, which also differ by sex, not by gender).

Largely speaking, give the child the tools, let them experiment and do as they please. It's more about being open minded and letting them try things rather than being close minded and trying to choose for them. If you're talking activities you can give them options of what they could do as hobbies and see what they pick. The majority of kids will end up doing something their friends do, or something they've found themselves (through reading/school or what not). As in you do not need to be a total case of paranoia and angst that you give your child every single choice imaginable from knitting to pottery to paintballing and baseball. Varied choice within whatever financial/social and other constraints you face is just fine. There is merit in instilling in a kid early on life isn't always fair (other people often end up doing things you might not be able to at that moment), and the value of money/finding happiness in what you do have/can do. Outside of the confines of this topic, there are very few things more problematic than parents that bring up a genuinely spoiled, aggressive and dysfunctional 'brat'. Mostly because said child will develop into an adult that has great difficulty navigating adulthood and other social interactions. Every parent understandably wants to tell their child(ren) they are special, can achieve anything and to be as confident as possible. There is merit in straddling the lines of reality though, and productively helping your child understand you do not always get what you want in life and how to productively handle that. Sometimes it may mean understanding why, trying again or doing something else. It often does not mean kicking, screaming, shouting, name-calling and going into moods. Children that do not get helped realise that either through fair and responsible discipline or educational and genuine explanation/reasoning often turn into adults with serious baggage. A complete offshoot of this overall discussion, but it's something you routinely see that ends up producing some of the most bratty and dysfunctional teenagers (half the trolls out there no doubt!) or adults that do not know how to life as adult life is the biggest example of "you do not always get what you want when you want it".

As is the case with most gender norms, a part of it can tie back to male brains being a bit different, on average, than female brains. A lot of psychological observation and testing goes on with children and toys. At young ages, it can be shown that gender preferences exist https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715114739.htm / https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...4/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys It's not about trying to obsessively deconstruct such findings as myths or problematic (which again is partly why I do not like a focus on trying to eradicate 'sex'. Truth, honesty, facts and evidence matter more to me, and it's how people deal with them). It's about allowing your individual child to experiment and play how they want, and not suppressing them if you have a child that is an outlier or a child that shows they are rejecting gender norms of their biological sex. Before anyone jumps the gun, no, that does not mean you have a trans kid in the making. That's part of the variations of being human. Said variations are NOT diagnosed as medical conditions, but healthy variation. Gender dysphoria IS a medical condition. Many kids will have varying levels of masculinity and femininity regardless of their sex. Hence why productive and nurturing parenting means to accept that at an early age.

By all means, if anyone wants to talk about actual babies, often it's part of the "fun" parents choose blue for boys and pink for girls (as well as matching accessories/clothing). That's not instantly sinister and oppressive. What's important is as the child develops and starts moving on from being an actual baby (walking/talking/picking things up/experimenting) that you give them a wide free range and ability to experiment. Then when they're at an even older age and are asking for their own toys, what they want to do, who they want to play with and so on that you let them do so to the best of your abilities. In other words, yes, it's your choice if you want to completely nuke all gender conforming colours/toys and baby products, and there's no evidence to show that will be harmful (that I know of). Equally though, if a set of parents have a baby girl and want to get all magical/pretty and so on, at such a young age it's not exactly harmful either. As I just said above it's more about the actual parenting and nurturing as the baby starts to develop. If your girl/boy does choose stereotypical gender conforming toys and experiences, I would say, irrespective of your views as an adult, it COULD be harmful if you spend more time trying to demand they see that as "learned oppression" rather than what can be the simplest explanation at times ~ You have a boy that likes boys toys/often male orientated activities, or a girl that likes girls toys and likes often female orientated activities. In saying everything I said above it works both ways (to allow them to play as they want means to play as they want), your children shouldn't be used as pawns for your own social/ideological views, even if you think you're on the side of righteous activism.
 

IISANDERII

Member
A general preference to getting special treatment and being a special unique snowflake, sure.

The only thing Barbara Findlay is achieving with this is giving groups like the alt-right more ammunition to use in their anti having-basic-empathy-and-a-brain agenda. Look at this crazy liberal oppressed by grammar, etc.
Who? I think you're in the wrong thread
 
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