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[excelsiorlef]

Denying evolution is a claim made against our biological understandings of life/humanity. That can be somewhat close to anyone who wants to deny the basis of sex. I ask what people think of the animal kingdom precisely to see what they will answer about it whether it's claiming we aren't related or it's okay for those persons and animals to be discussed with sex, but not humans. I know the majority of people well versed in gender/sex will probably believe in evolution and accept our place in the animal kingdom. It's more to try and prod their brains into why they might see the answer to social constructs to go and attack biology. As I said above I do not think that is the productive way to tackle the issues we face with gender/LGBTQ.

I have zero idea why you brought up pedophiles. Toys are more align with gender constructs as well, something I've been clear to state do exist.

Because that comparison was made by someone else in this thread and you comparing this parent to evolution deniers/flat earthers is right up there in bad analogies.

Jesus this person nor that group is denying the existence of sex.... They're just saying that in current society sex markers on ID cards lead people to then also assume the gender of the person. That's all.

 

[LionPride]

Interesting how this makes people pop a gasket when it really shouldn't

 

[A Link to the Past]

Interesting how this makes people pop a gasket when it really shouldn't

A lot of Chicken Littles in this thread lol

 

[Montresor]

Fixed

LOL

 

[blu]

...


You said they will be forcing the child to be trans, there's no indication of that erg yes you are the one making assumptions

The parent has already tried forcing the child to be of sex U, administratively, whereas the child has one of the established sexes - M/F (yes, this is my bold assumption).

 

[Audioboxer]

Sorry if our Humanity and request for equal rights is inconveniencing you

That's really not fair of you at all Slayven.

Because that comparison was made by someone else in this thread and you comparing this parent to evolution deniers/flat earthers is right up there in bad analogies.

Jesus this person nor that group is denying the existence of sex.... They're just saying that in current society sex markers on ID cards lead people to then also assume the gender of the person. That's all.

I agree with that. The activists website says they want sex removed from all forms of identification though. My argument is that is not the way to go about educating on gender assumptions/lack of compassion/misunderstandings.

 

[Pancake Mix]

...Not feeling it.

It's a health card, and it's a baby. Just go by what the sex is.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The parent has already tried forcing the child to be of sex U, administratively, whereas the child has one of the established sexes - M/F (yes, this is my bold assumption).

U is not a gender or sex, it is the lack of a gender or sex classification. You're literally responding to a story about a parent not using gender labels with their child by saying "how dare she label her child." Like, come on lmao

 

[Basketball]

Looks at title of thread

sees page count

I missed some good shit didn't I

 

[excelsiorlef]

The parent has already tried forcing the child to be of sex U, administratively, whereas the child has one of the established sexes - M/F (yes, this is my bold assumption).

That's not forcing the child to be trans.

 

[MazeHaze]

I didn't call it abusive but I think this whole situation will lead to severe bullying and will have a major impact on the child's psyche.
For fuck sake their Mum has a beard and is refusing to identify its sex.

Um, what? So you're saying that gender-fluid people can't have children because society is mean? What the fuck. And "its" sex? Come the fuck on, the article says that the parent uses "they" pronouns. People calling non-binary people "it" is transphobic as fuck, YOU are part of the bullying.

YOU'RE the reason for the whole "bullying" argument. Want to stop bullying? Don't use transphobic language, and hurl insults at non-binary people like they don't have the right to reproduce. Jesus christ man.

 

[Pancake Mix]

That's not forcing the child to be trans.

They are forcing the child to not just use their biological sex on their health card from birth like every other Canadian that has ever lived since those cards have been a thing. So yes, they are in a sense.

There was no pressing reason to do this.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I didn't even notice that Yeoman tried to shame the mom for having facial hair.

They are forcing the child to not just use their biological sex on their health card from birth like every other Canadian that has ever lived since those cards have been a thing. So yes, they are in a sense.

There was no pressing reason to do this.

The word "essentially" is used a lot by people when the actual, proper phrase is "essentially not." If you have to add essentially, you're more than likely trying to synthesize a connection.

The bare minimum a parent has to do in order to be forcing a person to be trans involves an active effort to push the child away from being cis. I have no idea why you'd leap to assuming that the child was being forced into being trans where the parent being trans doesn't factor into this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's really not fair of you at all Slayven.



I agree with that. The activists website says they want sex removed from all forms of identification though. My argument is that is not the way to go about educating on gender assumptions/lack of compassion/misunderstandings.

Right but removing the marker is easier to achieve then completely retooling how the population at large perceives gender and sex. Changing documents vs changing all of society.

And they're not likely to succeed at getting Sex removed entirely so the U designation is a great compromise.

 

[MazeHaze]

They are forcing the child to not just use their biological sex on their health card from birth like every other Canadian that has ever lived since those cards have been a thing. So yes, they are in a sense.

But they said once the child can express itself, they are free to be who they are. I think a lot of you that are so adamantly against this because of "bullying" don't realize that children identify with a gender as early as 2 or 3 years old. Just the same way cis gender people know that they are boys and have male parts, trans gender people know that they have male parts, but wait, I don't feel like a boy? I think if you asked any trans person, they would tell you that not identifying with their biological sex as their gender goes as far back as they can physically remember. It's not like this kid is going to be waiting until they're fucking 10 or something. The kid will be who they are, and then they will be a girl or a boy. That won't lead to bullying.

Beyond that, I think it's also extremely likely that the parent in this case will be home schooling for early childhood education, given their views on forced gendering.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

They're right.

Think of all the extra trauma that trans and questioning kids would have bypassed if doctors and families didn't ignorantly and prematurely assign the wrong gender onto them at birth.

 

[Audioboxer]

Right but removing the marker is easier to achieve then completely retooling how the population at large perceives gender and sex. Changing documents vs changing all of society.

Can you accept on legal documentation like a birth certificate your designated sex can lead to aiding in some things such as government benefits and insurance being different between male/female? For a practical argument. Your sex doesn't serve no purpose in society, the argument is it's used against people in places where it shouldn't serve a purpose (bathroom bills and other nonsense). They state they want sex removed from all documents/ID. It's not as if it's even a case of ID you have to carry can remain hidden (such as a card). It's everything. As much as we do a lot of conversing via voice/on the phone/in person, there's always a registered database/paper trail to identify a person living in a country. In other words there will be times when identifying someone it is done by records. Statistical collecting and evaluation is done by records as well, but it's obviously harder to make a compassionate case for saying sex should remain so the government can use stats.

If I can ask do you want to see all records of sex removed from everything? Or are you just saying you can see why they are asking for it/empathise with what they're saying? As that is two different things. I think most with a heart can empathise with why they're feeling how they are and saying what they are, but the crux of the debate comes to a head where there is a difference in opinion between what is realistic and practical.

They're right.

Think of all the extra trauma that trans and questioning kids would have bypassed if doctors and families didn't ignorantly and prematurely assign the wrong gender onto them at birth.

This is about sex though, not gender. Parents, friends and societies ultimately shouldn't push a gender onto a child, but if a child has male or female sex organs and internals and that isn't how they align then they'll end up being diagnosed with gender dysphoria on the basis that their sex doesn't line up with their gender. Which comes around to the debate of why try and suppress honesty about sex because ultimately it can be what leads to one of the most debilitating diagnosis around today.

 

[eizarus]

Looks at title of thread

sees page count

I missed some good shit didn't I

The first few pages were the best. US-GAF was asleep and the rest of us were slowly paving the way for the floodgates to spill.

 

[Aske]

They're right.

Think of all the extra trauma that trans and questioning kids would have bypassed if doctors and families didn't ignorantly and prematurely assign the wrong gender onto them at birth.

Nailed it. This is all that's happening. No one is pushing anything on the kid. The mother is just making sure the kid tells everyone else what their sex and gender identities are, rather than impose them upon the child at birth. It's not only fine, it's better for the kid; who will still be exposed to the gender identities of others like every other child.

 

[MazeHaze]

They're right.

Think of all the extra trauma that trans and questioning kids would have bypassed if doctors and families didn't ignorantly and prematurely assign the wrong gender onto them at birth.

B-b-but what if some people get confused! This kid will get so much shit in highschool for being forced to be a trans weirdo!

/S

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can you accept on legal documentation like a birth certificate your designated sex can lead to aiding in some things such as government benefits and insurance being different between male/female? For a practical argument. Your sex doesn't serve no purpose in society, the argument is it's used against people in places where it shouldn't serve a purpose. They state they want sex removed from all documents/ID. It's not as if it's even a case of ID you have to carry can remain hidden (such as a card). It's everything. As much as we do a lot of conversing via voice/on the phone/in person, there's always a registered database/paper trail to identify a person living in a country. In other words there will be times when identifying someone it is done by records. Statistical collecting and evaluation is done by records as well, but it's obviously harder to make a compassionate case for saying sex should remain so the government can use stats.

If I can ask do you want to see all records of sex removed from everything? Or are you just saying you can see why they are asking for it/empathise with what they're saying? As that is two different things. I think most with a heart can empathise with why they're feeling how they are and saying what they are, but the crux of the debate comes to a head where there is a difference in opinion between what is realistic and practical.

To be fair there really isn't a debate anymore, they got what they asked for.

Like I said I have no fear of this dreaded removal of all sex designation because there's no momentum for that, there's no indication it's going to happen, not did it even happen here. This is a story about U instead of an M/F.

 

[Pancake Mix]

The word "essentially" is used a lot by people when the actual, proper phrase is "essentially not." If you have to add essentially, you're more than likely trying to synthesize a connection.

The bare minimum a parent has to do in order to be forcing a person to be trans involves an active effort to push the child away from being cis. I have no idea why you'd leap to assuming that the child was being forced into being trans where the parent being trans doesn't factor into this.

Your health card at birth will just display your biological sex...except in this case. A 1 or a 0. The mother here has arbitrarily decided that that's not good enough.

There was no real reason not to put down the child's biological sex.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Your health card at birth will just display your biological sex...except in this case. A 1 or a 0. The mother here has arbitrarily decided that that's not good enough.

I's not exactly arbitrary, because she is personally someone who experienced how sucky it can be to have the wrong gender assigned to you.

There only exists an issue if the parent either insists on the child continuing to be a certain gender (or even continue to be unassigned) despite what the gender identity of the child turns out to be, and there's no evidence of this.

 

[blu]

...U is not a gender. What are you talking about?

The sex, by the very believes of the parent, is the gender of the child, otherwise we wouldn't be having this thread. The child has a current biological sex, even though it is too early of a stage for any gender self-identification, so the mother claiming the child is not of the actual biological sex is what exactly? Yes, it's a trans-genderification, only this one is not voluntary by the individual themselves, but by their parent.

And a good idea would be t o complain about people making assumptions in threads where you assume that a child is going to be forced to be trans due to the parent being trans.

The child is being forced, as of the date of the news, to not have its actual sex acknowledged. This is not for the mother to decide - the child will decide what their gender is when they feel like it, but their biological sex is a simple fact.

 

[Laiza]

Can I just point out how shitty it is to paint their decision as "arbitrary" when it is obviously something that they put a lot of thought into given their uniquely trans experience?

Like their trans experience doesn't matter, and that any decision they make that is colored by that experience is automatically "arbitrary"? That's kind of a shit thing to say, man.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The sex, by the very believes of the parent, is the gender of the child, otherwise we wouldn't be having this thread. The child has a current biological sex, even though it is too early of a stage for any gender self-identification, so the mother claiming the child is not of the actual biological sex is what exactly? Yes, it's a trans-genderification, only this one is not voluntary by the individual themselves, but by their parent.


The child is being forced, as of the date of the news, to not have its actual sex acknowledged. This is not for the mother to decide - the child will decide what their gender is when they feel like it, but their biological sex is a simple fact.

The child has a biological sex the parent just isn't telling you.

 

[blu]

The child has a biological sex the parent just isn't telling you.

Me? I don't need to know the kid's sex, it's the people around the kid who will need to be told what its sex is - for the kid's own sake.

 

[MazeHaze]

"this is ridiculous, there's no reason for it"- all of the people who refuse to empathize with a non-binary parent and making they're own shitty assumptions of that person's parenting skills.


Seriously, shit in this thread like "a penis is a man, period. I call em like I see em.". "dude with breasts and a dick" and "the mum has a beard for christ sake" make me so fucking mad. 50 years from now, you will be the equivalent of the old racist grandpa that is excused away with "he's old, he doesn't know any better."

 

[excelsiorlef]

Me? I don't need to know the kid's sex, it's the people around the kid who will need to be told what its sex is - for the kid's own sake.

Why?

 

[Audioboxer]

To be fair there really isn't a debate anymore, they got what they asked for.

Like I said I have no fear of this dreaded removal of all sex designation because there's no momentum for that, there's no indication it's going to happen, not did it even happen here. This is a story about U instead of an M/F.

I don't disagree, but it is true both in the original BBC article and from reading the activists goals on their website they do want sex removed from everything (including the birth certificate). Hence a debate on it. I understand it's a very emotional and loaded debate but it should be easy enough to cipher through what are genuine shit posts and what are people honestly trying to engage.

Like yourself I do not actually think it's something that will happen because it's just not legally practical. Instead, I think you'll see more education going on in schools and via Governments when they have a chance to speak or comment on discussing inclusiveness and compassion. Not to mention discussing gender and sex as separate entities. As while it's true sex often leads to gender constructs and pressure, it's not the fact sex is stated which causes that, it's the ways in which both society and parents bring up a child/react to sex. Many parents will do just fine at not forcing gender constructs on their children and allowing their children to express themselves freely and without judgement, whilst still accepting as a species we adhere to legitimate biological constructs.

 

[Caayn]

Are we going to deny biological sex now...

 

[MazeHaze]

Me? I don't need to know the kid's sex, it's the people around the kid who will need to be told what its sex is - for the kid's own sake.

Who says they won't be? As far as we know this is just about keeping it off of public record. Also, the pronoun to use is definitely not "its" that shit is offensive. The article states that the parent uses "they" pronouns.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are we going to deny biological sex now...

No

 

[blu]

Why?

So they don't cast it out? How's life on Mars?

 

[Impeccable]

Me? I don't need to know the kid's sex, it's the people around the kid who will need to be told what its sex is - for the kid's own sake.

Who, who needs to know? I don't understand how so many people think children give a shit about each other. They are all kids and they see each other as that until they are WAY older than I think people here even understand.

The kids in my daughter's kindergarten class know she is different because she can't speak like they can. Know what damage it does? Nothing, she is a member of her class and they include her because she is fun to play with. She is included and plays like normal despite her quite heavy delays.

By the time this is a magical "issue" everyone involved will know what the child is because the child will.

 

[excelsiorlef]

So they don't cast it out? How's life on Mars?

Cast them out where?

So you neex to know someone's sex to accept them?

 

[Laiza]

So they don't cast it out? How's life on Mars?

Stop using the word "it" to describe a human being.

It's in the fucking article for crying out loud!

 

[MazeHaze]

Cast them out where?

So you neex to know someone's sex to accept them?

Excellent post. It's almost like blu keeps using "it" intentionally.

 

[blu]

Cast them out where?

So you neex to know someone's sex to accept them?

No. Example: I'm talking to you without knowing your sex.

Kids normally do though. Been to primary school?

Who, who needs to know? I don't understand how so many people think children give a shit about each other. They are all kids and they see each other as that until they are WAY older than I think people here even understand.

The kids in my daughter's kindergarten class know she is different because she can't speak like they can. Know what damage it does? Nothing, she is a member of her class and they include her because she is fun to play with. She is included and plays like normal despite her quite heavy delays.

By the time this is a magical "issue" everyone involved will know what the child is because the child will.

Children give a lot of shit about each other, but most importantly, how their peers perceive them, by the age of 7.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No. Example: I'm talking to you without knowing your sex.

Kids normally do though. Been to primary school?

Kids are pretty open minded at that age

 

[A Link to the Past]

Honestly, I wish blu would just go ahead and accidentally screencap something and reveal that he browses Stormfront and get it over with :v

 

[MazeHaze]

No. Example: I'm talking to you without knowing your sex.

Kids normally do though. Been to primary school?

You're just ignorantly concern trolling though. There's a fairly good chance that this child will identify as a gender well before that point. And even if they don't you don't get to decide they need to be forced into one to avoid bullying. If that's your mindset, YOU are the bully.

 

[RangerX]

I'm completely baffled by the discussion in here. The child has a biological sex when it's born. Male or Female. It's just scientific fact. I'm as a big a supporter of Trans rights as anyone. It's wrong to lumber a kid with incredibly complex sociological issues. Your playing a political football when you do that.

 

[Straight Edge]

I'm completely baffled by the discussion in here. The child has a biological sex when it's born. Male or Female. It's just scientific fact. I'm as a big a supporter of Trans rights as anyone. It's wrong to lumber a kid with incredibly complex sociological issues. Your playing a political football when you do that.

If you want a child's sex listed on the birth certificate you probably post on Stormfront.

 

[Izuna]

If you want a child's sex listed on the birth certificate you probably post on Stormfront.

That's reductive

 

[MazeHaze]

I'm completely baffled by the discussion in here. The child has a biological sex when it's born. Male or Female. It's just scientific fact. I'm as a big a supporter of Trans rights as anyone. It's wrong to lumber a kid with incredibly complex sociological issues. Your playing a political football when you do that.

It's funny because if you're "as big a supporter of trans rights as anyone" you probably wouldn't be associating gender identification as "political football" or arguing with people who have stated they are transgender that your opinion is more relevant.

 

[blu]

You're just ignorantly concern trolling though. There's a fairly good chance that this child will identify as a gender well before that point.

And also fix their 'sex U' medical records retroactively?

And even if they don't you don't get to decide they need to be forced into one to avoid bullying. If that's your mindset, YOU are the bully.

Sorry, jedi mindtricks don't work on me. I get it that you're not getting my point, but let's try to be rational, as adults.

 

[MazeHaze]

And also fix their 'sex U' medical records retroactively?


Sorry, jedi mindtricks don't work on me. I get it that you're not getting my point, but let's try to be rational, as adults.

Yes? They're free to update the med card when the gender becomes apparent.


Also it's not jedi mind tricks, that's a really shitty analogy, and as far as I can tell the only people being irrational are people like you who are openly arguing with the trans people in this thread because you refuse to budge from your own biased, bigoted view point.

Edit: and as adults? Are you implying everyone calling you out is being childish? Don't be condescending to people just because they call out your concern trolling bullshit.

 

[A Link to the Past]

If you want a child's sex listed on the birth certificate you probably post on Stormfront.

No, just if you behave in a transphobic fashion and assume that a trans parent will force their child to be trans. :v

 

[Audioboxer]

No. Example: I'm talking to you without knowing your sex.

Kids normally do though. Been to primary school?


Children give a lot of shit about each other, but most importantly, how their peers perceive them, by the age of 7.

Kids navigate life largely based around audiovisual experiences, rather than reading documents or asking complex questions. As long as you let them play and experiment they will largely do as they want and get along just fine. It's why you see many cute pictures or posts of children who are incredibly diverse all getting along, and it being a reminder to adults who are all political, twisted and ideologically driven what most of us were once like! I mean for sure they are sponges and it's incredibly important to start educating early, I'm talking more about their ability to play with and interact with others who can be vastly different (backgrounds/race/sex/disabilites/etc). The knowledge and teachings go in early but often the brain needs more time to develop and begin thinking critically before the kids will start truly processing what they've been told.

I do therefore think some of the bullying posts are a bit misguided, because we'll be talking earlyish ages. If we're talking high school, then yeah, who wasn't bullied... Teenagers are assholes. Kids will largely be kids and if allowed to play/experiment freely, with discipline when needed, most will prosper. Adults with baggage tend to come from parenting gone wrong and while I disagree with some of the end goals of the child's parents (not around gender constructs but the debates around sex), it's far too early and unfair to say the parents have done a poor job of nurturing and bringing up the child. They haven't even began let alone have a 5 year old out playing with other children.