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Fitness |OT3| BroScience, Protein Dysentery, XXL Calf Implants, and Squat Rack Hogs

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So a little update, I spoke to a trainer at my gym a few days ago who was able to give me a fitness evaluation. I talked to him about taking on the OPs program and he generally agreed it was a good idea. Alot of the exercises though we modified a bit because I have some very weak stabalizers right now apparently, and he felt it would be a good idea to spend a little extra time on my back, shoulders, and core since mine are in relatively shitty shape.

For the most part I'm doing a lot of exercises on the ball. Squats, bench press, crunches, and push ups to name a few. I'm not going to pay for personal training but the session was a good lift off point. Beyond that my body fat is at 17.8 which isn't really bad at all but I'm going to be jogging everyday as well (been doing about 2.5 miles a day at about 10 min/mile).
 

params7

Banned
So I've been on SS for a month and a half now. DL is upto 200lbs today but I could barely do this. The thing is its not my legs but my hands/grip that gives up. Should I be training mah biceps? Yes I know about the mix grip and I had to do that to complete 5 reps (could only do 2 with double overhand). But i want to know if going into mixed grip is too early for me or should i still try to lift with double overhand. Too lazy to read the book.
 

rando14

Member
So I've been on SS for a month and a half now. DL is upto 200lbs today but I could barely do this. The thing is its not my legs but my hands/grip that gives up. Should I be training mah biceps? Yes I know about the mix grip and I had to do that to complete 5 reps (could only do 2 with double overhand). But i want to know if going into mixed grip is too early for me or should i still try to lift with double overhand. Too lazy to read the book.

Train your grip with dead hangs, pullups/chinups, farmers walks, more deadlifts.
 
So a little update, I spoke to a trainer at my gym a few days ago who was able to give me a fitness evaluation. I talked to him about taking on the OPs program and he generally agreed it was a good idea. Alot of the exercises though we modified a bit because I have some very weak stabalizers right now apparently, and he felt it would be a good idea to spend a little extra time on my back, shoulders, and core since mine are in relatively shitty shape.

For the most part I'm doing a lot of exercises on the ball. Squats, bench press, crunches, and push ups to name a few. I'm not going to pay for personal training but the session was a good lift off point. Beyond that my body fat is at 17.8 which isn't really bad at all but I'm going to be jogging everyday as well (been doing about 2.5 miles a day at about 10 min/mile).

On a ball? No. Do them properly at low weight.
 
Also, I think I'm finally getting comfortable going all the way down doing squats. I'm only doing 155 and my legs aren't getting a ton of work in the top 3/4 of the motion, but I need to develop more strength in that bottom portion first otherwise I'll be doing heavier weight half squats forever. Also, I feel like being really tall and having really long limbs sucks for squats way more than other exercises (other than that bodyweight/gymnastics stuff).

I can't speak for anyone else here and at 5'11'' the toughest section of motion in squats for me is after two inches of vertical movement after reaching the bottom of the squat. At that point in the rep is where your form going down matters most because if done properly you will be able to use your hips to drive back up.

This video has been posted a ton of times, but it's worth linking again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8
 
This. Don't listen to trainers trying to get you to do exercises on a ball. Plant your feet firmly on the floor and concentrate on having impeccable form.

cuevas said:
On a ball? No. Do them properly at low weight.
Mind if I ask why? Doesn't the ball simply help build stability and balance, and even my core and glutes in some instances. It's not making it any easier that's for sure... laying on a bench for presses is a whole lot easier than balancing on ball while doing so. Same with trying to keep the ball stable while doing push-ups on it
 

Mr.City

Member
So a little update, I spoke to a trainer at my gym a few days ago who was able to give me a fitness evaluation. I talked to him about taking on the OPs program and he generally agreed it was a good idea. Alot of the exercises though we modified a bit because I have some very weak stabalizers right now apparently, and he felt it would be a good idea to spend a little extra time on my back, shoulders, and core since mine are in relatively shitty shape.

For the most part I'm doing a lot of exercises on the ball. Squats, bench press, crunches, and push ups to name a few. I'm not going to pay for personal training but the session was a good lift off point. Beyond that my body fat is at 17.8 which isn't really bad at all but I'm going to be jogging everyday as well (been doing about 2.5 miles a day at about 10 min/mile).

This sounds like something we all joke about. Do everything on a swiss ball for the stabilizers? What the hell are stabilizers? And doing long slow cardio everyday is not the best for your muscular endeavors. A lot of "trainers" like to have people do lots of busy work because it's safe and you can't really mess it up.

Wait, did he have do weighted squats on a ball?

swissball_squats.jpg
 
This sounds like something we all joke about. Do everything on a swiss ball for the stabilizers? What the hell are stabilizers? And doing long slow cardio everyday is not the best for your muscular endeavors. A lot of "trainers" like to have people do lots of busy work because it's safe and you can't really mess it up.

Wait, did he have do weighted squats on a ball?
It's absolutely nothing like that image.

So for bench presses for example, instead of laying on a bench you put your shoulders on a ball with your feet planted and your hips up (core and glutes tightened), then do your regular presses. For push ups you either put your hands or feet on the ball and do them. For crunches, instead of sitting you have your back on a ball, again with your feet planted and hips held high.

As for jogging, I am trying to burn fat and keep my heart healthy. The trainer didn't even go into it with me except that running will possibly be high impact on my knees and that I shouldn't do it heavy when I'm focusing on lower body excercises
 

deadbeef

Member
You'll definitely be less stable on a ball. I guess that proves your stabilizer muscles are weak! ;)

It takes practice to be able to, for example, lower and raise the barbell during a bench press evenly so one arm isn't going down faster than the other and that you raise them together and in a straight line. You could say that if you couldn't do this that your "stabilizer muscles" weren't strong enough or you could just say that you haven't taught your muscles how to do the lift correctly. It takes time to learn a new movement.
 
You'll definitely be less stable on a ball. I guess that proves your stabilizer muscles are weak! ;)

It takes practice to be able to, for example, lower and raise the barbell during a bench press evenly so one arm isn't going down faster than the other and that you raise them together and in a straight line. You could say that if you couldn't do this that your "stabilizer muscles" weren't strong enough or you could just say that you haven't taught your muscles how to do the lift correctly. It takes time to learn a new movement.

That's a problem I have. I mean, with the barbell... I'm using dumbbells at this point. I will build to a barbell, I just really can't keep it balanced at this point
 

deadbeef

Member
That's a problem I have. I mean, with the barbell... I'm using dumbbells at this point. I will build to a barbell, I just really can't keep it balanced at this point

I find a barbell much more stable than lifting with dumbbells. It's just a matter of teaching your body the movement. Everyone had that problem with the barbell at the beginning. There are "regular" barbells and olympic barbells. The regular barbells are like 15 pounds I think, while the olympic barbell is 45 pounds just by itself. Perhaps you should start with the regular barbell?
 

Mr.City

Member
It's absolutely nothing like that image.

So for bench presses for example, instead of laying on a bench you put your shoulders on a ball with your feet planted and your hips up (core and glutes tightened), then do your regular presses. For push ups you either put your hands or feet on the ball and do them. For crunches, instead of sitting you have your back on a ball, again with your feet planted and hips held high.

As for jogging, I am trying to burn fat and keep my heart healthy. The trainer didn't even go into it with me except that running will possibly be high impact on my knees and that I shouldn't do it heavy when I'm focusing on lower body excercises

I'm curious as to why you're worried about working your ass and abs during a bench press. And what's this about not keeping the bar balanced? Which lift are you talking about?

And as for the cardio, I'm not a huge fan of a bunch of slow, pointless cardio. You want to make your hard healthier? Running at a slow pace for 20 minutes isn't doing it any great leaps. Conditioning workouts are generally capped at 10 minutes or so and involve brief periods of high intensity with some rest periods (HIIT, Tabata, etc.) However, these things are scary and hard to program, so Mr. Trainer will say to do a bunch and work the stabilizers.

As for why we're so against the ball, you can't really load a lift safely on a ball. As a result, you can't really progress linearly on a lifting program (i.e adding a little bit of weight to the bar each time), and that means you're not getting stronger. Given that no one can remain stable on an unstable surface, what exactly is getting stronger?
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Given that no one can remain stable on an unstable surface, what exactly is getting stronger?

You remain stable by tightening muscles that normally would go unused or wouldn't be used at much during a lift. Isn't this a similar argument for doing compound exercises vs isolation?
 
This sounds like something we all joke about. Do everything on a swiss ball for the stabilizers? What the hell are stabilizers? And doing long slow cardio everyday is not the best for your muscular endeavors. A lot of "trainers" like to have people do lots of busy work because it's safe and you can't really mess it up.

Wait, did he have do weighted squats on a ball?

swissball_squats.jpg

I'm never sure if the 'your doing it wrong' is intentionally spelled wrong or not.
 

Ashhong

Member
Haha for your backs sake you damn well better be doin them right.

I'm trying to follow the video I was given to the T, but it's a lot harder then I thought. Let's say I am doing it wrong, is there a certain tell-tale sign? Like maybe soreness in a certain area or something after a few weeks?
 
That's a problem I have. I mean, with the barbell... I'm using dumbbells at this point. I will build to a barbell, I just really can't keep it balanced at this point

Because you're on a ball...

Doing shit on a ball isn't really helping you build towards doing things right. If you want to lift heavy later, lift light now. Do it with the right equipment and form and you'll be fine.
 

gdt

Member
Man, I was planning on going to gym for a bit of cardio only, but I'm still really really sore in my back area. Did wayyyy too many deadlifts yesterday.

I hate missing a day dammit. Maybe I should just push through it.
 
Again, I'm not standing or even just sitting on a bouncy ball. That image is a joke.

Timedog said:
You remain stable by tightening muscles that normally would go unused or wouldn't be used at much during a lift. Isn't this a similar argument for doing compound exercises vs isolation?
This was exactly my line of thinking and the entire reason I thought the balance ball existed. People might want to make fun of me "tightening my ass" but my entire core is forced to be held in a tense position while balancing the ball on my back. The whole idea of using it was based on this thread's advice that I should focus on compound workouts.

Because you're on a ball...

Doing shit on a ball isn't really helping you build towards doing things right. If you want to lift heavy later, lift light now. Do it with the right equipment and form and you'll be fine.
I'm not lifting a barbell on a ball, I said I am using dumbbells.

Plus, the only actual weights I was using while on the ball was for the bench press and crunch. I'm doing modified low weight squats and lunges to build up my quads and glutes so I can eventually do a regular Full Squat. All the exercises I'm doing for my arms (biceps, triceps, forearms), shoulders, back, and whatever muscles groups a pull-up works out is done off the ball.

Just dump the trainer because he's giving you shitty advices.
I DON'T have a trainer! I never had a trainer and I'm never going to pay for a trainer. This was a fitness evaluation like I said... a series of exercises to measure my strength, balance, and endurance. Half the time was spent doing push ups, pull ups, stretching, lunges, etc... measured my weight, body fat percentage, range of motion, and generally figured out where I was at.

He never gave me a routine to follow. The entirety of his advice was, "we should probably focus a little more on your back and core because your posture isn't good and it looks like your shoulders are weak". If I actually wanted a routine and advice from him I would of had to pay for some follow up training sessions which I didn't. Not sure what's hard to understand here... it was an evaluation, not a training session.
 
Not sure what's hard to understand here... it was an evaluation, not a training session.

What people didn't get is, that this kind of evaluation isn't normally some standalone service. It sounded like getting it meant you'd already hired the trainer and the first session was an evaluation. So it was some "free w/ membership" deal?

And people are dubious of the ball because normal compound lifts will force you to tighten everything anyway if you do them properly. The ball adds an extra element of instability which will make things more dangerous while not bringing new muscles in. I guess lateral stability while bench pressing does work your glutes, but a proper routine will have squats/ deads so that's redundant.
 
Again, I'm not standing or even just sitting on a bouncy ball. That image is a joke.


This was exactly my line of thinking and the entire reason I thought the balance ball existed. People might want to make fun of me "tightening my ass" but my entire core is forced to be held in a tense position while balancing the ball on my back. The whole idea of using it was based on this thread's advice that I should focus on compound workouts.


I'm not lifting a barbell on a ball, I said I am using dumbbells.

Plus, the only actual weights I was using while on the ball was for the bench press and crunch. I'm doing modified low weight squats and lunges to build up my quads and glutes so I can eventually do a regular Full Squat. All the exercises I'm doing for my arms (biceps, triceps, forearms), shoulders, back, and whatever muscles groups a pull-up works out is done off the ball.


I DON'T have a trainer! I never had a trainer and I'm never going to pay for a trainer. This was a fitness evaluation like I said... a series of exercises to measure my strength, balance, and endurance. Half the time was spent doing push ups, pull ups, stretching, lunges, etc... measured my weight, body fat percentage, range of motion, and generally figured out where I was at.

He never gave me a routine to follow. The entirety of his advice was, "we should probably focus a little more on your back and core because your posture isn't good and it looks like your shoulders are weak". If I actually wanted a routine and advice from him I would of had to pay for some follow up training sessions which I didn't. Not sure what's hard to understand here... it was an evaluation, not a training session.


Could you not squat with just the bar? Are the ball workouts your idea?
 
Again, I'm not standing or even just sitting on a bouncy ball. That image is a joke.


This was exactly my line of thinking and the entire reason I thought the balance ball existed. People might want to make fun of me "tightening my ass" but my entire core is forced to be held in a tense position while balancing the ball on my back. The whole idea of using it was based on this thread's advice that I should focus on compound workouts.


I'm not lifting a barbell on a ball, I said I am using dumbbells.

Plus, the only actual weights I was using while on the ball was for the bench press and crunch. I'm doing modified low weight squats and lunges to build up my quads and glutes so I can eventually do a regular Full Squat. All the exercises I'm doing for my arms (biceps, triceps, forearms), shoulders, back, and whatever muscles groups a pull-up works out is done off the ball.


I DON'T have a trainer! I never had a trainer and I'm never going to pay for a trainer. This was a fitness evaluation like I said... a series of exercises to measure my strength, balance, and endurance. Half the time was spent doing push ups, pull ups, stretching, lunges, etc... measured my weight, body fat percentage, range of motion, and generally figured out where I was at.

He never gave me a routine to follow. The entirety of his advice was, "we should probably focus a little more on your back and core because your posture isn't good and it looks like your shoulders are weak". If I actually wanted a routine and advice from him I would of had to pay for some follow up training sessions which I didn't. Not sure what's hard to understand here... it was an evaluation, not a training session.

My thoughts: Balance balls can be useful as a specialized tool to supplement your training with, not base your core movements around. Let's break it down: if you want to start squatting and benching, you hesitate because your core muscles may not be up to snuff. The best way to get these muscles built/strengthened is by doing the movement itself--nothing else will prepare your body for it, the way that the basic movement will.

Take squats. There is a reason that you should not squat in running or basketball shoes: it is akin to squatting on a squishing surface, which not only equates to power loss during the movement, but could also be dangerous in some situations. Your feet are your anchor to the ground--a firm plant is REQUIRED for a safe, strong squat. When doing squats on a ball, not only are you doing a movement that won't really be replicated once you start doing real squats, but the mechanics change, by their nature, because you add unnecessary instability.

The same goes for the bench. I can't REALLY use the "feet as anchor" argument in the same way, but consider this: in the bench, your upper back and feet play a considerable role in maintaining a tight movement. Your upper back is your "base"--you want it to be as tight and solid as possible, firmly planted against the bench. Many lifters will put chalk on their shoulders so they "grip" the bench with their shoulders/scapulae. Having an instable surface to bench against is pretty much a cardinal sin. The same goes with your feet--a good bencher will ALWAYS firmly plant their feet against the ground and PUSH, digging their body further into the bench to maintain a strong arch in their lower back, and a strong base overall. There is literally NO way to replicate this on a ball.

To recap: in most movements, other than the muscles that are being directly worked, you want as little extraneous movement and instability as possible. Excess movement/instability leads DIRECTLY to fatigue and power loss and does NOTHING to strengthen your muscles. If anything, it increases the risk of injury.

My advice? Start squatting. Start benching. I understand your concerns/where you're coming from 100%, but you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. By trying to train your stabilizers with these movements on a ball, you're robbing your body of actual knowledge of the lift itself, and its mechanics. Use the ball for accessory movements and strengthen your stabilizers directly, rather than trying to work them indirectly when practicing a squat/bench movement. A lot of beginners get caught up in "preparing" for the actual movement. But benching or squatting with a 45 lb bar is A)light enough to allow you to work on your form/build up any necessary stabilizers and B)allows you to practice the ACTUAL movement you will be doing once you add weight.

And I will agree with others here on barbell vs. dumbbell--I think it is easier to pinpoint and work on a muscle imbalance with a barbell, because you are literally holding a level that lets you (or a friend) tell if you are evenly distributing your force.
 

MjFrancis

Member
You remain stable by tightening muscles that normally would go unused or wouldn't be used at much during a lift. Isn't this a similar argument for doing compound exercises vs isolation?
Houston3000 should be tensing all those muscles anyways. By introducing the wild card of the balance ball into the equation, he's hampering his ability to add more weight each session by expending energy on a task that may not even teach him how to bench press with proper form.

The risk/reward ratio of using a balance ball doesn't make much sense either when you consider the needless complexity it adds to the movement. It may even be like learning to run before you've learned to walk. Especially since he said he can't properly balance a barbell at this point. Balancing a dumbbell in either hand on an unstable surface is making this a lot harder than it needs to be for him. Linear progression will be at a slug's pace, and improving his strength to add more weight to the bar will be more difficult than ever.

If Houston3000 can read up on bench press form from Starting Strength, that would be most optimal at this point. He can get a good spotter to help him build the strength to keep the bar balanced and even. A smaller point that might help him is the dust the bar with chalk (if available) and wear a black shirt. Try to get the bar the touch the same place on his chest with every rep. But having the knowledge from the book, maybe watching a few good Youtube videos on form help for a beginner (anyone else want to link some good ones?) and having a supportive training partner for a bit will go way farther towards improving his bench press than starting with dumbbells on a balance ball.

---

Also, Anton Sugar's advice. Take heed, Houston3000.
 
What people didn't get is, that this kind of evaluation isn't normally some standalone service. It sounded like getting it meant you'd already hired the trainer and the first session was an evaluation. So it was some "free w/ membership" deal?
Yes, exactly... free with membership. The gym obviously wants me to pay the insane amount of money for a personal trainer so they give everyone an evaluation for free when they start. The trainer can then build a routine for you so when you start paying they'll have something to go on.

MjFrancis said:
Awesome Advice
Anton Sugar said:
Awesome Advice
Thank you guys, this is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. I'm not sure I can find a spotter for real proper lifting but I'll see what I can do and keep this stuff in mind next time I work out. I also should probably get different shoes - any recommendations on shoes that won't break the bank (>$80)?
 
Thank you guys, this is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. I'm not sure I can find a spotter for real proper lifting but I'll see what I can do and keep this stuff in mind next time I work out. I also should probably get different shoes - any recommendations on shoes that won't break the bank (>$80)?

No problem. Having a spotter can really help, but you can also take video of your form and we'd be happy to critique.

For shoes, I used Chuck Taylors for 2 years before upgrading to some Rogue/Pendlay shoes.

Chuck's work because they have zero cushioning and are flat. Very good for deadlifting and squatting. Weightlifting shoes (like Rogue/Pendlay) have a heel in them, but also have straps for additional support--you literally feel GLUED to the ground. I squat in mine but don't like deadlifting in them (some people do).

I'd recommend just using Chuck's for now. Good weightlifting shoes are $90+ dollars and Chucks will do you right for a while. If you have a good pair of boots without a squishy sole, they have just a little bit of heel that makes squatting a bit more natural, but otherwise, go with Chucks.
 

MjFrancis

Member
Some Vans have thinner soles than Chuck's, too. I'm insistent on minimalist footwear or going barefoot whenever possible, but for weightlifting purposes you just need to avoid anything with a cushion like Anton mentioned. The flat soles will help maintain balance on your part (that's how much we emphasize having a balanced surface to lift from - imagine our chagrin when you told us you were benching from a balance ball!).

I have a nice pair of Vans that I like to wear that I can roll/fold it over like a piece of lunch meat. Those have been my favorites for quite some time, I'll be disappointed when the soles wear out (my only complaint pertaining to thin-soled shoes).

I'll also add that the spotter is only necessary if he's good, i.e. that he won't touch the bar unless you're in actual trouble and is knowledgeable enough to help with any form issues. Everyone's advice will be slightly different but that's okay, ask questions if you need to reconcile a contradiction.
 
Thank you guys, this is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. I'm not sure I can find a spotter for real proper lifting but I'll see what I can do and keep this stuff in mind next time I work out. I also should probably get different shoes - any recommendations on shoes that won't break the bank (>$80)?

yeah pretty much what youre looking for would be chucks/vans/toms for sub $80.

i personally lift in these:
new balance minimus mt10
NB-minimus-red-300.jpg

vibram sole, great for squatting and deadlifting, and i can use them for plyometrics/box jumps/sprints
 
In my experience/opinion, in the beginning you don't need a spotter, because you are going lighter than you could do, in order to perfect the form. Then the increase is gradual. Once you are at the weight where it is a struggle to do your workset, you should have a feel for when you might not be able to finish the set. I will ask for a spot in the last set.

But even then sometimes you will fail unexpectedly, especially when increasing, so it's good to know this.
 
Some Vans have thinner soles than Chuck's, too. I'm insistent on minimalist footwear or going barefoot whenever possible, but for weightlifting purposes you just need to avoid anything with a cushion like Anton mentioned. The flat soles will help maintain balance on your part (that's how much we emphasize having a balanced surface to lift from - imagine our chagrin when you told us you were benching from a balance ball!).

I have a nice pair of Vans that I like to wear that I can roll/fold it over like a piece of lunch meat. Those have been my favorites for quite some time, I'll be disappointed when the soles wear out (my only complaint pertaining to thin-soled shoes).

I'll also add that the spotter is only necessary if he's good, i.e. that he won't touch the bar unless you're in actual trouble and is knowledgeable enough to help with any form issues. Everyone's advice will be slightly different but that's okay, ask questions if you need to reconcile a contradiction.

You'd love all the fake trainers in Beijing, you can roll them right up as they're thin as fag paper.
 
I'm a big fan of wrestling shoes. Flat, minimalist sole, zero heel drop, good traction, inexpensive. Great for basketball, too (just leave the ankle section unlaced to promote ankle mobility).
 

MjFrancis

Member
You'd love all the fake trainers in Beijing, you can roll them right up as they're thin as fag paper.
Feiyue's? If that's what you're talking about I'm ambivalent on them so far. I've run through two pair and I don't recall how long it took them to wear out but it was ridiculously quick. For a shoe that I can buy for $15-$17 USD it doesn't bother me as much, though. I could probably hang onto them longer if I didn't wear them outside the gym.

21DySwPJQvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


I'm a big fan of wrestling shoes. Flat, minimalist sole, zero heel drop, good traction, inexpensive. Great for basketball, too (just leave the ankle section unlaced to promote ankle mobility).
I considered this about a month ago when I spotted some wresting shoes at the Sports Authority. I never wrestled in high school, nor followed the sport but I could see how these things could work well for weightlifting.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
TBH if I wasn't using my vibrams I would just get a 35 dollar pair of chucks. No reason to spend more on a shoe just for lifting. (Unless you plan to run in them too)
 
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