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[Brolic Gaoler]

Yep, exactly. I've always found barefoot enthusiasts (consider myself one) to be extremely conservative with their recommendations. The idea that folks are just telling people to ditch the shoes and resume their normal activities is a strawman.

For curiosity's sake, did you experience an adjustment period when switching to VFF?

A little, but not much. Now when I do my conditioning (sprints) I don't feel it at all.

I think the first week or so my endurance was effected because of the change in movement (feet up to ass and forefoot striking at/just in front of pelvis), and the muscles in my feet felt a little different too, but it didn't last too long.

Like I said though, I don't run long distances anymore. I just do sprints when I can, until I get closer to my PT test, but the longest I'll run then is only 1.5 miles.

TBH I got the vibrams more for my lifting. But I wanted a shoe I could do both in so I didn't have to swap out my shoes. Vibrams fill that role, but you already know that.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

It always boggles my mind that people bring up the argument, "well the Kenyans run barefoot and they have no problems at all!" Yes, they've been running barefoot all their lives.

But even if you wear vibrams, not everyone will be able to transition from landing on your heel first to landing on your forefoot.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

I forgot why I unsubscribed to shoguns blog this thread.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

It always boggles my mind that people bring up the argument, "well the Kenyans run barefoot and they have no problems at all!" Yes, they've been running barefoot all their lives.

But even if you wear vibrams, not everyone will be able to transition from landing on your heel first to landing on your forefoot.

You mean you don't know how to do something the first time you do it? No shit, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIT7t2jtdP0

 

[Price Dalton]

It always boggles my mind that people bring up the argument, "well the Kenyans run barefoot and they have no problems at all!" Yes, they've been running barefoot all their lives.

But even if you wear vibrams, not everyone will be able to transition from landing on your heel first to landing on your forefoot.

I agree, but so do most people recommending barefoot running. That's why a long (if necessary) transitionary period is required.

Are you of the opinion that everyone who grew up wearing shoes will never be able to fully transition?

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

He doesn't understand that our body, not just our brain, adapts to run/walk in a certain way...

 

[blackflag]

Just bought some cheap arse Creatine, BCAA powder and Glutamine.

I can't afford to keep buying all this stuff monthly, so got 2-3 months work for a good price. Not a well known company, but lots of people seem to abide by them

Just FYI man. Glutamine doesn't really do shit unless you are just trying to help your immune system. Nothing for lifting.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

For curiosity's sake, did you experience an adjustment period when switching to VFF?

I didn't have any issues jumping right into weightlifting. I don't do long-distance running either (when I run it's normally ~2-3 miles at a 7:30 per mile pace), but I started off with 1 mile runs for the first couple of weeks to break them in and get my feet used to them. Definitely had some soreness in random little muscles all over my foot at first, but that was to be expected.

It always boggles my mind that people bring up the argument, "well the Kenyans run barefoot and they have no problems at all!" Yes, they've been running barefoot all their lives.

In general, I'd say evolution trumps (relatively) short-term adaptations. We've only had the modern, padded/cushioned sneaker (like Nikes) since the 1970s. We were barefoot or wore very thin-soled sandal-like footwear for tens of thousands of years.

However, with that said, to be honest I find the whole kenyans/evolution/etc argument to be a bit hyperbolic. That wasn't really the leading reason why I bought the Vibrams, it's just a nice bonus to know it has health benefits down the road.

But even if you wear vibrams, not everyone will be able to transition from landing on your heel first to landing on your forefoot.

I agree with this. Not everyone will be able to make that transition.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I agree, but so do most people recommending barefoot running. That's why a long (if necessary) transitionary period is required.

Are you of the opinion that everyone who grew up wearing shoes will never be able to fully transition?

No, which is why I said not everyone will be able to transition from heel strike to forefoot strike when wearing vibrams or minimus shoes. Biomechanically, vibrams may not be for you. Then again, so are other cushioned/motion control shoes.

I supinate, so the NB 993's are the only shoes that doesn't cause pain on the side of my left foot. In all honesty, they're the most comfortable shoes I've ever worn.

I haven't ran in them, but I'm hoping I should have no problems with the 993s. I haven't ran in two years, and soon I have to prepare for the fitness test for the deputy U.S. Marshals position.

Last time I hadn't ran in 2 years and decided to start back up again, I was able to run 5 miles in 40 minutes.

 

[muntersaur]

I've got the Merrell trainers with the vibram soles and had no transitioning period whatsoever in them.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Just FYI man. Glutamine doesn't really do shit unless you are just trying to help your immune system. Nothing for lifting.

Oh really? Not to sound rude, but according to...?

 

[JB1981]

I forgot why I unsubscribed to shoguns blog this thread.

Fucking this man. Dude shits up every thread he touches

 

[Mr.City]

Don't understand the Shogun hate. Seems like a gentle giant. The shoe debate is ..interesting. I would never wear a foot glove because I have long, thin, flat feet, easy for breakin'. I tried going down the minimalist route with walking around in chucks to build up the foot muscles. I ended up with a stress fracture. I could have transitioned into it better, but my feet will have to settle for inserts for now.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Don't understand the Shogun hate. Seems like a gentle giant. The shoe debate is ..interesting. I would never wear a foot glove because I have long, thin, flat feet, easy for breakin'. I tried going down the minimalist route with walking around in chucks to build up the foot muscles. I ended up with a stress fracture. I could have transitioned into it better, but my feet will have to settle for inserts for now.

Their hate comes from another thread, the same reason they are both on ignore for me, and it doesn't belong in this thread. I do post a lot in here, but it's mostly conversation with the regulars and help for people who seem to need it or ask.

Well, that and posting numbers, but I like when we all post numbers, it lets us motivate eachother and make more conversation.

I do admit, I should probably take less "bait" when it comes to arguing though. And I know I can come off as overly abrasive at times, but that's "me" now and I'm not so sure it's going to change. I am a nice guy though, you just have to get to know me.

 

[blackflag]

Oh really? Not to sound rude, but according to...?

Here's an explanation. I didn't write this.


With the exception of supplemental glutamine's beneficial role in gastrointestinal disorders (and general gut health), sepsis, and for the recovery from trauma and or surgery.... there's not much sense in administering a product that is very much limited in it's availability for physiological uptake, due to the fact that it's endogenous levels (prior to supplementation) are double the concentration of any other amino acid within the human body (1). Besides.... it's already synthesised within the body in large amounts, found in food, and found in significant amounts within a protein shake.

Endogenous glutamine plays a detrimental role in physiological homeostasis. It plays an equally important role in immune system functions, and most of the glutamine that is utilized for this purpose is naturally synthesized in vivo, and is supplied by the plasma glutamine. In healthy adults, the standard reference ranges for plasma glutamine are around 500-1000 mol/L (2), and do not require supplementation to maintain those figures.

Supplemental glutamine would only benefit us if our intracellular muscle glutamine concentrations were depleted. There are numerous studies that indicate no intracellular muscle glutamine depletion whatsoever following extensive exercise, but even if we do experience some glutamine attenuation.... we are still producing it within us, and getting it through our diet.

In healthy adults, dietary consumption of glutamine has been estimated to be around 5 grams per day (3). Foods such as meat, fish, dairy products, eggs, beans, cabbage, spinach, parsley, beets, ect. are all common sources. A single 3-oz serving of meat contains around 3-4 grams of glutamine. (4)

Now let's add on top of all that, the fact that an average 50 gram protein shake, there's about 4.5+ grams of glutamine. So for a 150 lb individual at only 2 protein shakes a day, that's around 9-10 grams of supplemental glutamine.

So for those of you that feel that glutamine is worth supplementing, we're looking at a minimum of around 15+ grams of glutamine intake per day, in addition to what is being produced endogenously.... Do you really think we need more?


(1)http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/3/813

(2)http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/132/9/2580.pdf

(3) http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/45/1/6

(4) http://www.answers.com/topic/glutamine

 

[MrToughPants]

Are you serious?

The less between you and the floor the better, especially for squat and deadlift.

That's not true...

Deadlifting and squatting with real weightlifting shoes is perfectly fine. An elevated heel is actually better for squats because your torso will remain vertical during the squat and also allow you to achieve proper depth and ankle flexion among other things.

Proper depth anatomically being a full squat.

Don't understand the Shogun hate.

Not hate but some people need to read more, get more experience and stop posting shit off as fact.

There's not only the Rippetoe or whatever-the-fuck-it-is way of doing shit.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

That's not true...

Deadlifting and squatting with real weightlifting shoes is perfectly fine. An elevated heel is actually better for squats because your torso will remain vertical during the squat and also allow you to achieve proper depth and ankle flexion among other things.

Proper depth anatomically being a full squat.

You think so? Why would you need the heel to "remain verticle" though? How much give is in the shoes you use? The videos and articles I've read are adamant about the "least" between you and the floor to keep the "squishyness" out of the equation, which could result in an injury. (I couldn't remember which videos or articles those are at the moment to be honest though.)

Personally when I squatted/deadlifted in shoes with heels I didn't feel nearly as stable or strong as I do with the vibrams, and that's simply because my feet aren't sinking into anything but the floor. Also, I do near ATG when I squat. Is flexion that much of a problem in other lifters? Obviously I'm speaking from personal experience, so I don't know other people's conditions.

I can't think of any power lifters I've seen using anything but thin soled shoes to be honest. I think you said you've been doing this off and on for 13 years, so I'd be interested in hearing more. Especially since I've only been doing this for about a year and a half.

Edit: the "are you serious" was meant as a separate comment by the way, it was more in regard to the "trashbags as lifting shoes" line.

Not hate but some people need to read more, get more experience and stop posting shit off as fact.

There's not only the Rippetoe or whatever-the-fuck-it-is way of doing shit.

That's true enough, there's not really any "facts" or 100% truths when it comes to lifting, I should probably have worded my posts better.

I just "know" that a huge population prefer minimalist shoes for lifting, and I'm one of them.

 

[Hieberrr]

If anybody is willing to help:

Age: 20
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 145-150lbs
Goal: 160-165lbs
Current Training Schedule: None. I worked out during the summer for a bit, but due to getting sick, going on vacation, and working, I gradually stopped.
Current Training Equipment Available: Powerblocks (50lbs max per hand)
Comments: I'm 20 and due to just being overwhelmed by school, I find that I barely have enough time to fit a workout in. Having said that, I do want to try and fit workouts into my schedule, so that's why I'm asking for help.

What I mainly want to concentrate on is getting a bigger upper body. I do plan on running daily for cardio purposes.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

 

[MrToughPants]

You think so? Why would you need the heel to "remain verticle" though? How much give is in the shoes you use? The videos and articles I've read are adamant about the "least" between you and the floor to keep the "squishyness" out of the equation, which could result in an injury. (I couldn't remember which videos or articles those are at the moment to be honest though.)

Personally when I squatted/deadlifted in shoes with heels I didn't feel nearly as stable or strong as I do with the vibrams, and that's simply because my feet aren't sinking into anything but the floor. Also, I do near ATG when I squat. Is flexion that much of a problem in other lifters? Obviously I'm speaking from personal experience, so I don't know other people's conditions.

I can't think of any power lifters I've seen using anything but thin soled shoes to be honest. I think you said you've been doing this off and on for 13 years, so I'd be interested in hearing more. Especially since I've only been doing this for about a year and a half.


That's true enough, there's not really any "facts" or 100% truths when it comes to lifting, I should probably have worded my posts better.

I just "know" that a huge population prefer minimalist shoes for lifting, and I'm one of them.

Weightlifting shoes don't have a squishy heel. There's either wood or a hard carbon rubber in the heel to prevent instability.

I wasn't singling you out it's just sometimes posters try to say there's only this one way when indeed there are many different ways to do things.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Weightlifting shoes don't have a squishy heel. There's either wood or a hard carbon rubber in the heel to prevent instability.

I wasn't singling you out it's just sometimes posters try to say there's only this one way when indeed there are many different ways to do things.

Singling me out or not, you're right, and sometimes I need to be reminded I don't know shit.

Should have guessed that with traditional lifting shoes, I may have to give that a try some time, but I think I'm really happy where I am now with minimal soled shoes, unless I find out that lifting shoes would actually give me an advantage.

I tend to try to emulate what I see the big power lifters using (within reason). Although I didn't go with chucks (but again, that was mostly for the dual use).

If anybody is willing to help:

Age: 20
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 145-150lbs
Goal: 160-165lbs
Current Training Schedule: None. I worked out during the summer for a bit, but due to getting sick, going on vacation, and working, I gradually stopped.
Current Training Equipment Available: Powerblocks (50lbs max per hand)
Comments: I'm 20 and due to just being overwhelmed by school, I find that I barely have enough time to fit a workout in. Having said that, I do want to try and fit workouts into my schedule, so that's why I'm asking for help.

What I mainly want to concentrate on is getting a bigger upper body. I do plan on running daily for cardio purposes.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Any way you could get a gym membership? How's the gym in your school?

Why just upper body? Did you read the OP?

If you just have power blocks and no other resource I would say you're kind of screwed. IMO you shouldn't focus on just the front of your body, you need to do an equal amount of back work.

If you have a gym in your school use that. I would also recommend looking at some pre made routines, there's some good ones in the OP. You can use them or alter them how you like.

 

[MrToughPants]

Singling me out or not, you're right, and sometimes I need to be reminded I don't know shit.

Should have guessed that with traditional lifting shoes, I may have to give that a try some time, but I think I'm really happy where I am now with minimal soled shoes, unless I find out that lifting shoes would actually give me an advantage.

I tend to try to emulate what I see the big power lifters using (within reason). Although I didn't go with chucks (but again, what was mostly for the dual use).

You already know much more than most beginners would in weightlifting which allows you to progress faster and give some advice etc.

It would be good to try them out if you see someone who can let you. Rogues are less expensive and I've only read good reviews on them.

There are many strength athletes (PL, Oly, Strongmen) who compete or just move extremely heavy weights with elevated heel shoes.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Don't understand the Shogun hate. Seems like a gentle giant. The shoe debate is ..interesting. I would never wear a foot glove because I have long, thin, flat feet, easy for breakin'. I tried going down the minimalist route with walking around in chucks to build up the foot muscles. I ended up with a stress fracture. I could have transitioned into it better, but my feet will have to settle for inserts for now.

A lot of people who wear minimalist shoes end up having metatarsal stress fractures. Be careful if you ever transition over to VFF or any kind of minimalist shoes again. Especially if you're flat feet.

 

[HarryHengst]

If anybody is willing to help:

Age: 20
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 145-150lbs
Goal: 160-165lbs
Current Training Schedule: None. I worked out during the summer for a bit, but due to getting sick, going on vacation, and working, I gradually stopped.
Current Training Equipment Available: Powerblocks (50lbs max per hand)
Comments: I'm 20 and due to just being overwhelmed by school, I find that I barely have enough time to fit a workout in. Having said that, I do want to try and fit workouts into my schedule, so that's why I'm asking for help.

What I mainly want to concentrate on is getting a bigger upper body. I do plan on running daily for cardio purposes.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

No, you dont want a bigger upper body. You want a bigger body. Unless you think chicken legs are what drives the ladies wild, i guess.

But yeah, without a gym you are pretty limited. I guess you can look into bodyweight exercises, and a pullup bar might be useful for you.

 

[Price Dalton]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22248495/

Interesting study found that aerobic training in the fasted state lowered body weight and body fat, while fed aerobic training lowered only bodyweight.

 

[IceCold]

No, you dont want a bigger upper body. You want a bigger body. Unless you think chicken legs are what drives the ladies wild, i guess.

But yeah, without a gym you are pretty limited. I guess you can look into bodyweight exercises, and a pullup bar might be useful for you.

Seriously. Guys with muscular upper bodies and puny legs look ridiculous.

 

[parrotbeak]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22248495/

Interesting study found that aerobic training in the fasted state lowered body weight and body fat, while fed aerobic training lowered only bodyweight.

Very cool, thanks! I've been trying to not eat before cardio on cardio-only days, but man it sucks. This gives me some inspiration to keep trying though.

 

[Timedog]

No, you dont want a bigger upper body. You want a bigger body. Unless you think chicken legs are what drives the ladies wild, i guess.

But yeah, without a gym you are pretty limited. I guess you can look into bodyweight exercises, and a pullup bar might be useful for you.

I've had women tell me that they like how my legs are smaller than my upper half because big bulky legs aren't attractive. Going around telling other people what they want isn't cool.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I've had women tell me that they like how my legs are smaller than my upper half because big bulky legs aren't attractive. Going around telling other people what they want isn't cool.

Eh, it's just like women who go ga-ga over men with abs.

Personally, the above pic isn't THAT bad. Looking at his entire body, he's proportioned. He doesn't look like a blow pop.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22248495/

Interesting study found that aerobic training in the fasted state lowered body weight and body fat, while fed aerobic training lowered only bodyweight.

I'm confused, is this basically saying that running with food is going to cause you to break down muscle while running fasted burns fat?

 

[Domino Theory]

A lot of people who wear minimalist shoes end up having metatarsal stress fractures. Be careful if you ever transition over to VFF or any kind of minimalist shoes again. Especially if you're flat feet.

Heh, I grew up flat footed, but it's almost completely gone and I've only been using VFF about 4 times a week maximum for one hour at a time since September of last year.

It's weird to actually see an arch on both feet.

I'm confused, is this basically saying that running with food is going to cause you to break down muscle while running fasted burns fat?

Basically. Your body's naturally using fat as fuel during the fasted state/while you sleep so if you add some aerboic exercises during the fasted state you're amplifying your rate of fat metabolism.

 

[parrotbeak]

I'm confused, is this basically saying that running with food is going to cause you to break down muscle while running fasted burns fat?

I thought it was because your body uses the food for fuel if you eat, but if there's no food it is forced to use fat.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I thought it was because your body uses the food for fuel if you eat, but if there's no food it is forced to use fat.

Yeah, but then why is it lowering body weight? If it's not burning fat, where is the body weight loss coming from? My only other thought would be that if you're not burning fat, you're burning muscle.

I ask, because this may change how I condition. I don't want my conditioning to be a detriment to my lifting, so I may have to switch to conditioning in the morning.

 

[Mr.City]

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fasted-cardio-and-fat-loss-qa.html

To add to the fasted cardio debate.

 

[Enco]

Seriously. Guys with muscular upper bodies and puny legs look ridiculous.

Eh?

Looks good to me.

People with huge legs look ridiculous.

 

[Price Dalton]

Yeah, but then why is it lowering body weight? If it's not burning fat, where is the body weight loss coming from? My only other thought would be that if you're not burning fat, you're burning muscle.

I ask, because this may change how I condition. I don't want my conditioning to be a detriment to my lifting, so I may have to switch to conditioning in the morning.

As near as I can see, it's coming from lean mass, which could be bone, muscle, glycogen. Worth a shot. I swear by a nice long walk in the morning before I eat.

 

[IceCold]

Eh?

Looks good to me.

People with huge legs look ridiculous.

With that upper body his legs should be more defined/ripped, imo. I'm not talking about absolute size, but size relative to the rest of your body.

 

[Kwhit10]

Here is a recent article on ways wheat makes you fat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/dr-mark-hyman/wheat-gluten_b_1274872.html

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

As near as I can see, it's coming from lean mass, which could be bone, muscle, glycogen. Worth a shot. I swear by a nice long walk in the morning before I eat.

Yeah, that's what I was understanding, well fuck, looks like I'm doing my conditioning in the mornings before lifting.

 

[parrotbeak]

Yeah, but then why is it lowering body weight? If it's not burning fat, where is the body weight loss coming from? My only other thought would be that if you're not burning fat, you're burning muscle.

I ask, because this may change how I condition. I don't want my conditioning to be a detriment to my lifting, so I may have to switch to conditioning in the morning.

Oh ya, that makes sense. Shit, I do HIIT after lifting. I suppose I could run stairs before work.

 

[Ultimatum]

what do you guys think about training guides like this: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/nfl-combine-trainer.html

I've been training for American Football (in the UK) since October (coming from a sprinting background), and I was wondering what you guys think would be the best way to go about upping my game. I play receiver right now, but may switch RB if I get some more size on me.

With that upper body his legs should be more defined/ripped, imo. I'm not talking about absolute size, but size relative to the rest of your body.

yeah he clearly doesn't work his legs as much, but in terms of size, they look to be in decent proportion

 

[Slayer-33]

Seriously. Guys with muscular upper bodies and puny legs look ridiculous.

Round knees do not want.

Spoiler

Seriously his legs need definition relative to his upper body, that's just a ridiculous look.. As if working the legs is hard. Looks weird as fuck.

 

[kylej]

Seriously. Guys with muscular upper bodies and puny legs look ridiculous.

If that look is ridiculous I want to be ridiculous because I'll have to carry a stick with me at all times to keep women off my body.

 

[GoodMorning]

Anybody taken BSN Cell Mass before? I re-upped on protein and it was like $5.00 for a 10 day sample of the stuff so I bit. I've read some good things.

 

[rando14]

If that look is ridiculous I want to be ridiculous because I'll have to carry a stick with me at all times to keep women off my body.

lolwut

 

[MrToughPants]

If that look is ridiculous I want to be ridiculous because I'll have to carry a stick with me at all times to keep women off my body.

You'll need that stick to help you walk because your legs will be too weak to support you.

TerryCrews.jpg

 

[CliqWriter]

Round knees do not want.

Spoiler

Seriously his legs need definition relative to his upper body, that's just a ridiculous look.. As if working the legs is hard. Looks weird as fuck.

I do agree that his legs do need more definition, BUT not everyone can have bigger legs.
I want bigger legs and have went through several great workouts and spent dedicated time
on them but some people just can not develop them.

 

[Cooter]

What the hell has happened to our thread. Stop it now!

 

[Bit-Bit]

Whenever you guys post pics of someone in great shape, I feel even more motivated.

 

[braves01]

Age: 20ish
Height: 6'5"
Weight: 255-265 lbs
Goal: 225-235 lbs

Current Training Schedule: Monday - chest press, incline dumbbell press and flys, bicep and tricep iso machines, lat pulldowns. Wednesday - shoulder/military press machines, alternating dumbbell raises, shrugs, reverse flys (i forget what this one is actually called), lower back machine, ab machine, row. Friday - leg press, hamstring curl, calf raises, light jogging. TThS - jog/run a 5k depending on how my knee feels, down to 27:30 which is okay for my size/condition I think.

Current Training Equipment Available: Membership to an older ymca, so facilities are lacking some equipment but the basics are covered. I'm opening to spending about $50 on equipment for home if need be.

Comments: I had ACL surgery over the summer, put on 30 lbs., and now I want to lose it while hopefully getting stronger. Doc says it's okay at this point to resume normal activity with a brace, but I can tell the leg I had surgery on isn't as strong as the other side so I'm wary about any heavy free weight lifting. Diet's probably my biggest problem right now, but any suggestions?

 

[IceCold]

I do agree that his legs do need more definition, BUT not everyone can have bigger legs.
I want bigger legs and have went through several great workouts and spent dedicated time
on them but some people just can not develop them.

Are you saying that there are people out there who due to some genetic anomaly cannot develop their leg muscles?