LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Reading the FA report the proposals aren't as violently horrific as you might think. The devil is (or is not as the case here may be) in the detail.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Football Thread 2013/14 |OT20| I don't really give a shit what any title is
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
- Status
FortuneFaded
Member
How would Lallana have been able to get to where he is now if Southampton had brought in a bunch of loan players from the EPL to play instead of him when they were in League 1?
The_Hitcher89
Member
Altidore receives the sufficient criticism. In fact, he's not even worth criticism. He's a joke. And Dempsey played for Fulham, and got plenty of plaudits.
The split is English/not-English. America/race has nothing to do with it.
The split is English/not-English. America/race has nothing to do with it.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
The loan system existed then. You also needlessly bring in to question Southampton's coaches ability to asses their own youth players' talent/potential.
PL teams can opt in to it and can choose to go into a League 3 or the Conference. They can only be promoted as high as League 1 and they cannot be involved in the cup competitions.
They do not state what would happen if the Bteams topped league 1, nor do they approach what happens to B teams tied to teams that are relegated from the PL
Baconsaurus Rex
Member
They do in Geography class yes.
He has a huge ego. He won't settle for third choice. Will go to Italy imo.
I mean what's the end goal of these proposals.
Seriously, the rich get richer, allowing them to basically stockpile players making other clubs academies pointless because you can play league football at like 4 big clubs reserve team. The pull those 4 clubs have would be astronomical.
Nobody wants to watch a competitive fixture against some B team who can't even get promoted. So it's a training ground is it...that's what lower league football is. A playground for the big clubs.
This threatens so many little clubs future as a professional outfit.
The gap between the big and small gets to Scotland/Spain levels. Lower Leagues become meaningless. Superleague here we come.
Southampton would have become I dunno Arsenal's "loan agreement partner" or some shit and he would have been stuck behind Carlos Vela
Seriously, the rich get richer, allowing them to basically stockpile players making other clubs academies pointless because you can play league football at like 4 big clubs reserve team. The pull those 4 clubs have would be astronomical.
Nobody wants to watch a competitive fixture against some B team who can't even get promoted. So it's a training ground is it...that's what lower league football is. A playground for the big clubs.
This threatens so many little clubs future as a professional outfit.
The gap between the big and small gets to Scotland/Spain levels. Lower Leagues become meaningless. Superleague here we come.
Southampton would have become I dunno Arsenal's "loan agreement partner" or some shit and he would have been stuck behind Carlos Vela
The_Hitcher89
Member
He wouldn't be 'third choice' here anyway, if we consider him capable of playing as one of the wider forwards.
It's tough to explain where the players stand in the pecking order in this system, but there'd be a lot more games available for him to play in than you'd expect for a normal third-choice striker I think
The plans are horrendous and stupid.
The lower league structure in England is entirely unique, and amongst all the pomp and money that drives the Premier League is actually the foundation on which the game in this country is allowed to stand so successfully.
I am against anything which sacrifices that in favour of benefitting those already at the top table.
The lower league structure in England is entirely unique, and amongst all the pomp and money that drives the Premier League is actually the foundation on which the game in this country is allowed to stand so successfully.
I am against anything which sacrifices that in favour of benefitting those already at the top table.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Why's that dipshit Danny Mills even involved in this?
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Apologies for being blithe but I don't know what this means. It sounds very rhetorical to me.
If I were being a cunt (and I promise I'm not trying to be) I would say you're over-inflating the actual value of lower league football.
I remember when he was on commentary for a Manchester derby.
Was like someone taking a long, steaming piss in my ear.
Sad but true. As much as Germany are all for multi-nationality, their football team is quite critical when a non-native doesn't play as good as he should.
Don't agree. Dempsey's season was significantly better than say Lallana's this year but you'd never know it. Hell, Dempsey scored 12 the year before that. He won Fulham's POTY but that was his only significant praise. I think you're naive if you don't think his nationality affected his recognition.
The depth and quality of the lower leagues is what this country's football structure so special
More people go to watch League 2 football every week than the top tier of Portugese football
We have European Cup Winners in the second tier of English football. Droves and droves of people love it, it is incredibly healthy for the game. It produces and will continue to produce national team players
No other country has this. Countries twice, three times as big as ours cannot even dream of matching this.
Is it perfect? Obviously not and there are several glaring things which need to be fixed
But to "copy" other nations entirely misses the point about what is so good about the lower leagues
Putting B teams in serves whom? Your Manu U's, your Liverpool's your Arsenals. It dilutes competition and makes the lower leagues into training grounds, not competitive leagues where players are blooded and grow.
The circulation of money is horrendous and this will only make the gap between the big and the small even bigger.
What Bumhead correctly states is that the strength and the popularity of English football (the PL) rests upon the passion, strength and competition of the lower leagues. It does.
This proposal essentially creates a big boys club which Spain etc have. Even more than we have now
(sorry for the speech. Do get worked up bout these things...obviously because I watch it plenty often enough and therefore care about it)
More people go to watch League 2 football every week than the top tier of Portugese football
We have European Cup Winners in the second tier of English football. Droves and droves of people love it, it is incredibly healthy for the game. It produces and will continue to produce national team players
No other country has this. Countries twice, three times as big as ours cannot even dream of matching this.
Is it perfect? Obviously not and there are several glaring things which need to be fixed
But to "copy" other nations entirely misses the point about what is so good about the lower leagues
Putting B teams in serves whom? Your Manu U's, your Liverpool's your Arsenals. It dilutes competition and makes the lower leagues into training grounds, not competitive leagues where players are blooded and grow.
The circulation of money is horrendous and this will only make the gap between the big and the small even bigger.
What Bumhead correctly states is that the strength and the popularity of English football (the PL) rests upon the passion, strength and competition of the lower leagues. It does.
This proposal essentially creates a big boys club which Spain etc have. Even more than we have now
(sorry for the speech. Do get worked up bout these things...obviously because I watch it plenty often enough and therefore care about it)
I love that image of Altidore's goal scoring record, with like 4 goals in his entire career except when playing in the Eredivisie.
I know that league is very hit and miss, but it's depressing, Holland was the source of a lot of our generations best strikers.
van Nistelrooy, Henrik Larsson, Ronaldo, Kluivert and more. Time's past. I guess there was Suarez, though.
I know that league is very hit and miss, but it's depressing, Holland was the source of a lot of our generations best strikers.
van Nistelrooy, Henrik Larsson, Ronaldo, Kluivert and more. Time's past. I guess there was Suarez, though.
The Atticus
Member
I think Dempsey received the amount of praise I'd expect a 27+ year old foreign, goalscoring, attacking midfielder to receive. To be honest, I thought Bobby Zamora wasn't getting enough praise around that period when Fulham got to the final of the Europa League, and he was English!
Vivalaraza
Member
Any kind of B teams in our lower leagues idea should be binned.
No.
No.
Such stupid proposals. All it will do is benefit the rich clubs. I don't see much wrong with the current league structure. It's done a fine job for decades. It's not like the FA cannot sell the premier league abroad either. It's the most watch league in the world.
The whole idea of clubs being feeder clubs for the bigger ones is utter shit and devalues the smaller clubs. The FA seem to think fans don't give a fuck about history etc. Sorry but they do. I don't want swansea to become some training ground for Liverpool or Man united.
The whole idea of clubs being feeder clubs for the bigger ones is utter shit and devalues the smaller clubs. The FA seem to think fans don't give a fuck about history etc. Sorry but they do. I don't want swansea to become some training ground for Liverpool or Man united.
2016/17 season
The_Hitcher89
Member
Because he's not English, and Lallana is. And he played as a striker when he started scoring more iirc, I'd say he was about as good that year as Lallana has been this.
Bony's had a good season, nobody cares.
Giroud's had a good season, nobody cares
Berbatov had a good season last year, nobody cared
Grant fucking Holt had a good season 2 years ago, nobody cared, and he's English
America has nothing to do with it.
I would be fine with the B team proposal if several changes were made:
1. No League Three, but a League B which is adjacent to the Conference in the Pyramid, with B teams relegated from League Two sent to League B instead.
2. For every B team in the automatic promotion and relegation zone, a new promotion/relegation slot is added, so the promotion of normal teams up and down the divisions is not affected.
1. No League Three, but a League B which is adjacent to the Conference in the Pyramid, with B teams relegated from League Two sent to League B instead.
2. For every B team in the automatic promotion and relegation zone, a new promotion/relegation slot is added, so the promotion of normal teams up and down the divisions is not affected.
No other country has a lower league structure that matches the depth and individuality of the English league system.
You can go down right through the 72 league clubs and find domestic champions, domestic cup winners, European cup winners. Big clubs with genuine heritage and prestige. And well supported, too. More people watch the Championship than Serie A. But it's not just about success or former success. Every single club in the English lower league structure has it's own history. It's own right to be there. It's own story, it's own sense of place, it's own heritage and it's own place in the football pyramid.
It's also one that routinely benefits both the Premier League and England. A significant portion of players expected to be going to Brazil in the summer either graduated from or spent time on loan at Championship level.
Why should Shrewsbury Town, or Bury, or Mansfield Town, or Notts County - whoever - have their place in the league and their existence threatened by Manchester United B or Liverpool B? If you want to talk about delusional self importance, THAT is the example. The idea that we should change the landscape and core foundation of our game at the expense of the clubs within it, so we can continue to benefit and serve a handful of "powers" at the top table.
Manchester United B will never, ever be as relevant or important to the landscape of the English game as Accrington Stanley are. Reserve teams should absolutely not feature within the existing league pyramid, at ANY level.
Not aimed at anyone in particular, but national bias is going to be expected wherever you go.
Complaining about English players getting more praise than others, especially in a World Cup year, feels a little redundant.
Thanks.
I agree with Bumhead. Its about the passion and the heritage that sets apart the lower tier of English football and a B team would devalue that sets of reputation by just being a feeder club.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
Danke.
The B team idea has always seemed odd to me. On a very selfish level I wouldn't mind seeing our youngsters compete with lower league teams, I do think it would improve the quality of those players and it's not inconceivable that those leagues could benefit from increased competition too. But it would ultimately perverse the shape and constitution of those leagues.
I wonder then what to do about the quality of English players as a whole. My preferred solution is to massively increase the number and quality of coaches in England. Seems to be a huge disparity between the nations on this.
I'm also not sure the ban on non-EU players outside of the Prem is legally serviceable.
Peterborough chairman Darragh MacAnthony: "My thoughts on this B team scenario - It's all about ME, ME & ME from the FA/Prem & to hell with the rest of you. Can't be allowed to happen!
"In this instance, it's finally time for the 72 Football League chairmen and most importantly our chairman Greg Clarke to be strong to ensure this doesn't happen.
"I'd wager next thing to happen is threat over next solidarity negotiation unless we all agree to this. Sounds familiar indeed."
"In this instance, it's finally time for the 72 Football League chairmen and most importantly our chairman Greg Clarke to be strong to ensure this doesn't happen.
"I'd wager next thing to happen is threat over next solidarity negotiation unless we all agree to this. Sounds familiar indeed."
Dempsey was as good or better than Lallana's 13-14 in both 10-11 and in 11-12. You're agreeing with me that nationalism plays into it, but you're disagreeing that the fact Dempsey is American specifically did not affect his perception. We'll have to agree to disagree on that part.
I agree with you, heck, I support a mid-table League Two team. If the proposal means that there are suddenly 20 new B teams flooding into the league system (which I'm concerned it does) then there's a problem. But if it's just say the big five teams (Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Utd, 'Pool) putting out B teams, then I think it's an overreaction to say that it's going to spoil the heritage or opportunities of any of the 72 clubs currently in the Football League.
If anything it could help enhance the Football League if these B teams play in their parent club's stadium, imagine being an Exeter City or something and you get a day out at Old Trafford or Anfield, with a bigger crowd than you could ever expect to see at a normal League Two match. You might also be able to get to see PL stars playing against your club from time to time as well, if it's allowed. That normally only happens if you make it to the 3rd round of the Cup!
FlutterPuffs
Member
Sorry guys,
All I could think of about the B team scenario is how much it would help my Manchester United youths to develop in FM2014. So I'm in.
All I could think of about the B team scenario is how much it would help my Manchester United youths to develop in FM2014. So I'm in.
... no.
These are the people who picked Casillas when he didn't play all year. Race has nothing to do with it. Favourites and laziness does. If Yaya doesn't get into the team it's because they'll be picking Xavi and Iniesta like every year. Modric is equally as deserving as Yaya for a place in that hypothetical side. Neither will get in, but only one will cry racism.
Vivalaraza
Member
I really don't think there is an anti-any nationality sentiment when it comes to players.
Anti American ownership or American model or Americanised commercialisation - sure. Honestly don't think anybody cares where anyone comes from in a negative light. But certainly some nations have a positive slant attached to them and England is at the very top of that.
In the case of Yaya I don't know if it's a race issue. I feel like it might be but is positive discrimination = racism. Not quite. Dunno - do agree with the idea that if he was Brazilian or God forbid English then he would be a much bigger deal.
Anti American ownership or American model or Americanised commercialisation - sure. Honestly don't think anybody cares where anyone comes from in a negative light. But certainly some nations have a positive slant attached to them and England is at the very top of that.
In the case of Yaya I don't know if it's a race issue. I feel like it might be but is positive discrimination = racism. Not quite. Dunno - do agree with the idea that if he was Brazilian or God forbid English then he would be a much bigger deal.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Yep.
If race is always an issue with this kind of things then this guy would have never gotten popular.
Yaya Toure isn't critically acclaimed as he thinks he is.
Are we English not always knocking our own players? Saying we're shit, saying we lack the technical ability of other countries?
It's a two way street. Lallana will get special praise because he's English and performed well. Cleverley will be singled out for blame because he's English and performed poorly. Nationalistic stuff is one-eyed nonsense.
It's a two way street. Lallana will get special praise because he's English and performed well. Cleverley will be singled out for blame because he's English and performed poorly. Nationalistic stuff is one-eyed nonsense.
Kauft euch Müller, um ein wenig deutsche Spielkultur in England zu etablieren. Podolski hats vorgemacht. Leider wird er von Wenger nicht akzeptiert :/ Und Özil lasse ich einfach mal außen vor, weil er meistens eh nicht zu sehen ist. Aber Müller könnte euch ein bisschen Esprit geben.
I don't think it's a race thing though; if he was Brazilian like you say, but still black, the hype would be even greater.
It might be an African thing, but he could be white and Croatian like Modric and he wouldn't get the same acclaim. If you're Spanish, English, Brazilian, Argentinian, you'll get more praise than you would if you're from Gabon or Liechenstein. It's wrong, but it's not racism in the classical sense that I think Yaya might have been implying.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked