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GAF Indie Game Development Thread 2: High Res Work for Low Res Pay
- Thread starter Jacksinthe
- Start date
- Status
liliththepale
Banned
GameMaker does automatic texture packing of most resources. You don't have to micromanage it if you don't want to.
Sounds like a shitty vehicle for that kind of commentary. Jim Sterling's YouTube channel does that much better.
TheHollowNight
Member
He's been doing Graphic/UI Design (along with general art direction duties) for pretty much the last 10 years, including all the projects we've worked on together. I'm insanely jealous of his talent, because he totally nails the aesthetic without us really ever asking him to tweak much haha
Sexy. And I'm a sucker for a beautiful UI so I'm with you
Thanks!
Yeah, we want analog, minimal and clean, and hopefully as pretty as possible! I'm glad it's coming together well!So, right now this is one single sequence, but we're likely to make a few variations. It's going to be driven through HTML5 (read below!)
We use Coherent UI as a plugin for Unity, so everything is based in HTML5. We make everything appear on a seperate UI camera canvas through what is being triggered in the code. Meaning we can also add post-fx to the UI in Unity that are seperate from the main camera. Quoting our programmer on this:
In regards to the actual animations, I'll have to clarify that this specific clip is an After Effects sequence as of now, but its possible to get it functioning through Coherent. There are some AE>HTML5 scripts, but they look a bit dodgy, so we may just make our own. There's also this:
http://coherent-labs.com/blog/create-animated-game-hud-with-adobe-edge-animate-and-coherent-ui/
Which Edge functions fairly similar to AE (albeit more simplified), so I'd maybe check that out!
Otherwise, the main glitch effect at the start will be a video overlay if we can't got it sorted. Everything else we have in the game, UI/HUD/Menus including their animations are all driven through the CoherentUI plugin. It's pretty rad!
Sounds like a shitty vehicle for that kind of commentary. Jim Sterling's YouTube channel does that much better.
i don't like jim sterling one bit lol
i actually wanted to make a game called ad blaster for the phone where you just go around shooting ads. real ads which give you revenue ads.
Jacksinthe
Banned
GAF, what do?
So I'm breaking down feedback from places that covered us on the web the past week after our announcement. The majority is in favor of but breaking it down into communities shows a different story.
Feedback:
General gaming sites have been extremely positive.
PC centric sites have been extremely positive.
PlayStation sites have been extremely positive.
Xbox sites have been overwhelmingly negative.
Pretty much 90% of anything negative about the game comes from Xbox related comment sections. Of that, not scientific, around 75% of the negative comments are dismissive to a fault.
I've talked with devs before about the PS4 and XBone divide for smaller Indies and what I've heard is holding true for the most part. If that continues then sales will reflect that divide between the plarforms and overall feeling of the game from each demographic.
I'm not surprised in the slightest.
I will probably not sell much on Xbone and the little I probably would wouldn't be much of a dent, if at all.
Should I ditch XO now and save dev time, QA process, PR, etc for that version and really focus on PC and PS4?
If people aren't receptive to it on a specific platform then I don't want to waste my time. I know other devs who already made that call but I'm asking here for everyone's input.
Its greatly appreciated.
So I'm breaking down feedback from places that covered us on the web the past week after our announcement. The majority is in favor of but breaking it down into communities shows a different story.
Feedback:
General gaming sites have been extremely positive.
PC centric sites have been extremely positive.
PlayStation sites have been extremely positive.
Xbox sites have been overwhelmingly negative.
Pretty much 90% of anything negative about the game comes from Xbox related comment sections. Of that, not scientific, around 75% of the negative comments are dismissive to a fault.
I've talked with devs before about the PS4 and XBone divide for smaller Indies and what I've heard is holding true for the most part. If that continues then sales will reflect that divide between the plarforms and overall feeling of the game from each demographic.
I'm not surprised in the slightest.
I will probably not sell much on Xbone and the little I probably would wouldn't be much of a dent, if at all.
Should I ditch XO now and save dev time, QA process, PR, etc for that version and really focus on PC and PS4?
If people aren't receptive to it on a specific platform then I don't want to waste my time. I know other devs who already made that call but I'm asking here for everyone's input.
Its greatly appreciated.
dark_inferno
Member
Ditch the Xbone version. You will have more time to polish your game. And thats the most important thing.
What are they being negative about? Sure its great to get loads of positive feedback but do the negative ones have a certain merit also? You could drop the Xbox One version just to make time easier on yourself but that could mean actually ignoring some critical part than people have negative opinions about. Unless its bad feedback just for the sake of bad feedback of course.
I'm curious, what is your game made in? If it's not Unreal 4, you might want to consider Wii U. Indies do very well on the Nintendo system. But that would be giving you more pressure/work to do of course.
Honestly? I'd go with what people are saying about the game rather than platform specific sites. If people dig your game, they'll be happy to know that it's available on the system they invested in. The more surface area we cover, the better I think. True it may take a while longer, but you'll have more bases covered when finished.
This is awesome thank you! Time to break out the After effects skills
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I have no experience with this, but some comments on a few websites don't say much about the game being a sucess or not. When I have reported about the game, it was in the Xbox section of our site there were no complaints and the news was read as often as the Fallout news posted around the same time. If you are using an engine that makes the porting easy like Unity, I would not cancel the Xbox One version due to some negative comments that may very well not be indicative at all.
EDIT: Also, if it may help you: I'm an Xbox One owner and do not have a PS4, I think this game looks great.
EDIT 2: Since someone brought up Wii U: I'm more of a Wii U player than an Xbox One player though, Xbox One is my secondary console, so if there is anything with your game that might be going against the interest of the core Xbox One user base then this would probably not apply to me.
If you can garner overwhelmingly negative reactions to your game from Xbox One's user base, I am curious what I get to read when I announce my main game - provided Microsoft allows me to bring my game to Xbox One.
I also have a small question to you all: I'm making a small Sudoku-game for Wii U right now, to get some experience with the whole publishing stuff and to learn about possible mistakes in order to avoid them later when releasing the "big" SRPG project. However, since many core gamers seem to react really harshly towards more casual oriented games (and SRPGs are as core-oriented as it gets), is it problematic to release that game under the same brand / company name as the SRPG? Or can I just assume potential players will evaluate the game independent of what came before?
EDIT: Also, if it may help you: I'm an Xbox One owner and do not have a PS4, I think this game looks great.
EDIT 2: Since someone brought up Wii U: I'm more of a Wii U player than an Xbox One player though, Xbox One is my secondary console, so if there is anything with your game that might be going against the interest of the core Xbox One user base then this would probably not apply to me.
If you can garner overwhelmingly negative reactions to your game from Xbox One's user base, I am curious what I get to read when I announce my main game - provided Microsoft allows me to bring my game to Xbox One
.I also have a small question to you all: I'm making a small Sudoku-game for Wii U right now, to get some experience with the whole publishing stuff and to learn about possible mistakes in order to avoid them later when releasing the "big" SRPG project. However, since many core gamers seem to react really harshly towards more casual oriented games (and SRPGs are as core-oriented as it gets), is it problematic to release that game under the same brand / company name as the SRPG? Or can I just assume potential players will evaluate the game independent of what came before?
Jacksinthe
Banned
Dismissive of being:
An indie game "tired" of Indies
Pixel art "not again"
Complaints of gameplay that do not exist (shocker, reading and looking is hard)
There were very few criticisms that had merit. I found one that actually referenced the style and made sense. Others are just baseless, barely a glance, criticisms.
Unity. And no WiiU.
The problem is that what they say is dismissive and not based on merits of issues they have. A few comments snowballed about gameplay that doesn't even exist which could have been avoided if visiting the site, the article was written better or just watching a simple GIF.
I don't count ignorance and dismissiveness as actual criticism.
The problem is I expected this going in. There's a reason most small Indies have a sales gap larger than the hardware gap between platforms, it exceeds the margin of error things being where they are
I'm not purely making decisions based on sales but I'm not going to care much to port my game to a product where the install base doesn't care for it.
I'd definitely lose sales but in keeping my sanity and shipping a better game? I might ditch XO and go for the sure thing. I can put more effort into 2 platforms over 3.
Ahh fair enough. Most of them just sound like some jaded gamers moaning. If you can make the Xbox One version, you should continue with it and haters be damned. If it would make it a bit easier on time etc, then you could drop it. If your game is overwhelmingly positive on all other formats, then it should also be received well on Xbox One.
I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking. Any reason to not consider Wii U?
Anyways, your game looks fun. I look forward to it.
I don't know much about your game, but considering the overall feedback you're getting, I'd suspect that the negative feedback you're getting from Xbox One gamers is probably just a vocal minority of that community. I would take their criticism seriously (if it's not just trolling) but not let it dissuade you from releasing to Xbox One gamers who appreciate indie games.
Ori and Cuphead have shown that there is definitely some enthusiasm for non-AAA gaming on that platform.
Ori and Cuphead have shown that there is definitely some enthusiasm for non-AAA gaming on that platform.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Should be but meh. I am feeling pressured a bit to work on three versions. Looking at the breakdown by demographic is just making the move to ditch one of the platforms that much easier.
Thank you
We made the choice early on based on a number of reasons from small time stuff like not digging the touchscreen to more technical reasons like WiiU not working with the versions of Unity we use for XO and PS4. I'm sure that's changed, but at the time WiiU was lagging badly. We would need to revert our project to an older version of Unity. Again, probably different now but we made the choice a long time ago.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Xbone had a late start with indies and quite an image problem in the beginning, but with rising sales of the console and growing indie support I'm sure the situation will improve. From a journalists perspective, Microsoft is also doing a great job giving out dl codes to publications and promoting their indie games, moreso than Nintendo and Sony. By the time you are done with the game this might also help you gain additional sales.
Why do you fear to lose your sanity over this?
JeffG
Member
Just because you drop the XBox one version at release, doesn't mean you couldn't go back to it later.
But ask yourself, what the extra effort to add the other platform (in this case XBox)?? Coding?? (maybe a little)...Testing??? (medium effort) and how large do you need the sales to be to make it worth your while.
Another issue...Do you need the headache?? Life is short. Maybe breaking your release into smaller pieces will make your stress level be at a manageable level.
I was thinking for myself (if I ever get to the point of releasing something) of only doing one platform at a time. Just because I wouldn't want the stress of trying to support multiple platforms in release window.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Oh I won't even entertain the idea that I'm anywhere near the same level as Ori or Cuphead. That's just absurd.
Because I think 3 platforms is difficult for 1 guy to work in at the same time. Plus I work 50-60 at the day job and have a host of other things slowing me down.
Well, if I can go back I would maybe. There's other bonuses to console exclusivity.
Michael Armbrust
Member
How much work have you invested into the XBOX port, and how much work is left on the game? Is it just QA you have left or is it tons of console specific development to do?
It's more work but I'd probably say don't ditch the port. There are lots of people on XBOX that love indies yet there are far fewer indies releasing on the system. Market to that crowd and you could get some nice interest.
Do you have any online features that would suffer from a low install base?
electroflame
Member
Personally, if PS4 is on the table I'd focus on that. If Sony's offering perks for console exclusivity on top of being able to publish on the console with the largest current-gen playerbase, I'd say it's a no-brainer.
In my opinion, PC/Steam would be my priority, with PS4 being my secondary target. Xbox One would be more of a "eh, maybe later down the line" type of thing, unless they offer you some perks to offset the extra development stress. If they really do exclude you for the launch parity stuff (which seems to be happening less and less) then I'd say it's their loss. No reason to worry about it or stress yourself out, especially as Xbox One has the more vocal "ugh, indies again?" crowd.
Elitist1945
Member
So whats a good/easy way of doing concept art? I'm not particularly the best at drawing. Although I am getting a Surface Pro soon, so perhaps that'll assist me.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
But you still have to make a working and enjoyable game. A video game is interactive, and you don't want to make a product that actively trolls the user for even attempting to play it. You can make commentary about the state of games in general, sure, but at the end of the day, you need to realize that you are a game making fun of games. You're not a book.
Browse DeviantArt for an specific topic(Cyberpunk, Fantasy, etc.). Go to a city, take a picture and try to replicate the picture in your drawing and theme you want to paint/draw.
That's what I do.
I don't think there's any easy way of doing art. Not good art, anyway.
but why is that so wrong? games don't really need to be fun to play if the intent for them is not to be fun.
i'm not saying you have to charge money for a game like this - that is not the point.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
There's a difference between The Line and a purposefully broken game. You can still play The Line. You always need to give the player a way out.
For instance, I have a conversation in my game where, if you have a higher enough Intelligence, you can get a new dialogue option that still doesn't get you out of a boss battle. Yes, it trolls the player for thinking they could get better shit with a newly unlocked dialogue bit, but the game still continues.
Just linking this recent article about cross platform indie development, maybe it'll help:
http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/28/c...prising-facts-about-the-state-of-indie-games/
Ultimately, I'd say go for it, but maybe stagger your releases, if possible? Focus on the 2 that are working for you now, but maybe put off dev on XO.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah, definitely put off dev on XO if you do not have the manpower (or even if you do, think about resource management).
i guess then it goes into whether you are trying to make a game or interactive art
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's a gray area for sure, but games are games first and foremost.
And just by merit of being a medium in which you indirectly interact with thousands of others.... that's art.
My feeling is that if you told people you were going to do it, then you should honor that. Not everyone is going to appreciate your work and at the end of the day let it speak for itself. Canceling because some dudes just don't seem overly excited is kinda wrong and not the right message to send out. Hell, if that was the case, I would have scrapped my game long time ago. Can't let that stuff get you to you, man. Do your thing and move on with your life. They can appreciate it or not, but be proud of your own work and let the haters hate.
Jacksinthe
Banned
They are all equal at the moment in terms of investment. I still have a lot of platform specific to work on and as it stands we are shooting for early 2017 to release. No online functionality outside of a leaderboard for different game modes.
This is where I am leaning, at the moment.
Nobody bought anything, paid money to a kickstarter or pre-ordered. I don't owe anyone anything.
There's a lot more going on than just the breakdown of sales or bullshit website comments. I work 50-60 hours per week at the day job, have a bunch of ties outside of work that need to get done, battle as hard as I can to stay healthy, etc. My time is extremely limited. I'd love to just fucking start and finish playing a damn game, let alone build mine. Still haven't even beaten Batman AK yet and I've had it since launch.
This was merely the nudge to tip me over to dropping a version and if I do it is the Xbox version. I've been toying with the idea for a long time now - this was merely the straw, so to speak.
So I'm not looking at this from "MY GOD, CRITICISM!" since some of you have spoken to me privately and given me everything from praise to almost telling me to scrap the fucking thing without saying it - some of you have even opened up on me here in this thread and the previous thread. I appreciate criticism and enjoy it for what it can do to help me make a better game but some idiots in a comment section being straight up dismissive was one of those "Welp, if they don't like it, they don't have to play it" moments. I can understand if they were valid criticisms but straight up making shit up and running with it is not criticism - so how can it be taken seriously?
I'm tired, run down, stressed - I wish I could dedicate more time to developing the game because i love doing it but there's a lot going on and something has to give. This was just the thing that is pushing me to make a decision.
I understand exactly what you're talking about...more than you probably know. But at the end of the day we have to do what we have to do. Ultimately it's really that simple. However, I'm a firm believer in doing what I told people I was going to do. The moment we announce things we're inviting people to join us on that journey and telling them there's a payoff for them at the end for following us. Some appreciate it, some don't. Just as much as we put effort in what we do, people put effort in following and being part of what we're working on. If you gotta drop a version, then it should be for the reasons you stated and be very clear about that, because it can easily go wrong and be construed the wrong way. We're just small guys trying to do what we love to do and you surely don't need (or want) undue criticism.
I don't know, just my way of thinking. If that came across the wrong way, then I apologize. I've already had this discussion with myself, so I know how it goes. I work and put an incredible amount of hours into my game and at one point I thought about getting out myself. You're right, something has to give. So I simply reordered my life so I could do something I enjoy doing.
Really, your decision has to be the one that will help you sleep better and if dropping the Xbox version will do that, then by all means. But my personal opinion is that you should look at ways for all versions you've announced to eventually be released even if one has to come later.
Michael Armbrust
Member
If you're still over a year away, then I fully agree with dropping a system. It'll save you a ton of work with zero negative impact on Mainframe's quality.
You can also change your mind at any time in the future. If things change and an XBOX port makes sense again, you can do it as a late port like tons of successful indies do. No problem there.
However if you decide to keep the XBOX port for now, then you're stuck with that decision. 6 months from now it'd be too late to drop. Outside of work invested, you'd have marketing promises and XBOX fans eagerly awaiting your game.
Dropping the platform because of reactions is pretty silly, but dropping it because you lack time is a smart thing to do.
dark_inferno
Member
Xbox Indies had/and still have a hard time to get people to buy their games since the beginning. Microsoft never really pushed them. Only those that were exclusives like Ori or Shadow Complex (Cuphead will probably never come to PS4). Other titles with temporary exclusivity had problems with Microsoft (look at the Indie Game Movie where Microsoft made the Dashboard ad like 24 hours after the release of Super Meat Boy).
So if your game isnt an Artsy game,based on a well known franchise or a dudebro shooter, i can almost guarantee you that it wont sell as good as on PC,WiiU or PS4/Vita (Vita should be considered too because Vita owners are happy buyers).
But consider the price when you release on Sony products. Because of PS+, people tend to wait for it being "free". The lower the price the more people buy it even through it could be "free" later.
Or make it "free" from the beginning to get people talk about it and then you can cross out PS+ because they wont make your game "free" again. Look at Rocket League. This would be your dream example with first PS+ and then huge success. But its MP so, yeah, I dont know if there was a SP game that got a huge success because of PS+ (Maybe Armello if it had won).
I dont know how good the sales are on WiiU but i thing they will be the same with Vita. More people buy it but low User base. These are considered the best one. Where its almost a guarantee that you will sell your game. On PS4 it can go under if you sell it in a bad month where like 3 AAA titles are released. On Steam it could go under when another 100 ultra bad indie games getting released right after your game. This wont happen on Vita and WiiU.
And last but not least 3DS. You should consider it too. If you do PS4, do Vita too. Shouldnt be too hard to port them with the help of Sony or Alone. If you do WiiU, do 3DS too.
Consider your choices. Consider how much work you will put into and how much time you have. Consider the market. Consider when you will be done and what games will be out by then. Start small. Go big.
You will find the best way for your game.
Good luck.
Theanine3D
Member
I've been planning on launching the Greenlight for my game within the next month or so, but it just occurred to me that launching during a major holiday season might not be a good idea? Thanksgiving is next month in the U.S. and a lot of people will be flying out weeks ahead in advance, leaving behind their PCs, so I worry the Greenlight might not get much exposure as a result. Would it be a good idea to postpone, or am I worrying about nothing?
The game likely won't be done in 2015 as I had originally planned anyway (due to illness impacting my ability to work many times these past several months), so if I have to postpone as far as January, it won't really affect the release date in a negative way. I do want to have the game out by spring 2016 though.
The game likely won't be done in 2015 as I had originally planned anyway (due to illness impacting my ability to work many times these past several months), so if I have to postpone as far as January, it won't really affect the release date in a negative way. I do want to have the game out by spring 2016 though.
But maybe other developers are thinking the same and won't start their campaign then, which would result in your game being longer on the first pages and getting more votes.
Games are greenlit every week and when less people vote it would effect all games, not just yours. So I'd say, just go for it. Just try to make your game stand out from the Greenlight crowd with an intriguing cover image + trailer and you should be fine.direct_quote
Member
edit wrong thread
Deckbuilder action for Screenshot Saturday:
Had to work a bit on the weekend since we had to catch up from being away for the conference, which was really great though. Had a ton of players play the game and a lot of the were excited to actually buy the game, which was great, as was ending up in karaoke with some of the veterans there...(my voice still hasn't recovered properly from Thursday)
Had to work a bit on the weekend since we had to catch up from being away for the conference, which was really great though. Had a ton of players play the game and a lot of the were excited to actually buy the game, which was great, as was ending up in karaoke with some of the veterans there...(my voice still hasn't recovered properly from Thursday)
SeanNoonan
Member
Menu work...
It's certainly not an easy situation to be in. I know the market is still considerable enough to be worth it most of the time (unfortunately at least right now my mind only comes up with similar responses as Nathan Vella had, where it's been worth it, but not the key factor of success), unless the game contains plenty of potential TRC issues (networking, custom engine etc.), but at the same time the added pressure can certainly affect the end quality and for a larger audience too. Compromising a good launch window can still lead to less sales than going with an extra platform, but building an audience for the future is still important for the business as a whole, etc.
So really, all the advice I have is to really reflect and analyze whether it compromises the most important thing. You. You are making the game and especially with such a small team the end product will reflect you and its success can affect you deeply. If you really feel that you're compromising yourself, don't be afraid to do it, but make sure you have at least really reflected upon the matter and know that you thought you have made the right decision.
I'm reminded of Super Mario Land 3, Wario Land, nice map style!Menu work...
I don't care for the buttons expanding very much though. Especially where it looks like there are 2+ levels of waiting on buttons to expand. Just a thought.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Deckbuilder action for Screenshot Saturday:
Menu work...
Both those are Mega Bananas. I love them. I want to squeeze them.
Menu work...
it's so animated!!!
Jacksinthe
Banned
Thanks for the thoughts and insight, everyone. It's a tough call but I feel I will be able to perform better with 2 versions instead of 3. At least for the time being. I can always push another port after the fact or, hell, if we decide to use Kickstarter and go over funding or have XO as a stretch I can hire a hand to help with the conversion.
If you guys haven't noticed it's taking a long time to make this game, in general, there's a lot that keeps me from putting in adequate time so I need to make sure I can focus as best I can with the little time I do have to work on the project to hopefully hit our own internal deadline. I spent the last few weeks not working on the game, but creating editor functionality and other tricks I'm going to be using moving forward in an effort to save time during development.
I shouldn't have reached so far initially and I thought I would be able to take the workload on, and did for a while, but there are other factors that pop up in my life which are slowing me down a bit.
Like I said - i'm pretty fucking run down at the moment, not with gamedev, but in general. Gamedev is just another layer of complexity that I should take more care in weaving it into my life. A refactoring of my current station is in order. I do think it will be for the best.
If you guys haven't noticed it's taking a long time to make this game, in general, there's a lot that keeps me from putting in adequate time so I need to make sure I can focus as best I can with the little time I do have to work on the project to hopefully hit our own internal deadline. I spent the last few weeks not working on the game, but creating editor functionality and other tricks I'm going to be using moving forward in an effort to save time during development.
I shouldn't have reached so far initially and I thought I would be able to take the workload on, and did for a while, but there are other factors that pop up in my life which are slowing me down a bit.
Like I said - i'm pretty fucking run down at the moment, not with gamedev, but in general. Gamedev is just another layer of complexity that I should take more care in weaving it into my life. A refactoring of my current station is in order. I do think it will be for the best.
electroflame
Member
Best of luck to you, after the roadbumps that you've posted here (which probably pale in comparison to the ones you haven't posted here!) you really do deserve it.
Personally, I believe you've made the correct decision, at least for your personal wellbeing/stress level management. But I also know that, especially in the heat of the moment, it's really hard to tell what the "right" decision is.
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