-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
game developers: what exactly is cel-shading? (56k no)
- Thread starter U5230
- Start date
StrikerObi
Member
With Cel-Shading the image is drawn and then the cel-shade effect is layed on top of the standard image (sort of like applying a filter in Photoshop). Regardless of how similar something looks to cel-shading, it's not cel-shading unless they are using this technique. If they are simply drawing cartoony looking characters, it's not cel-shading.
The effect doesn't have to be applied to the whole environment. It can be limited to just characters or anything specific.
Tell this guy that if he wants to talk cel-shading he should at least know the differnece between a cell and a cel.
The effect doesn't have to be applied to the whole environment. It can be limited to just characters or anything specific.
Tell this guy that if he wants to talk cel-shading he should at least know the differnece between a cell and a cel.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Matlock said:
We should just use "toon-shading", no fuss no muss.
It is rendering characters with an outline plus using a 2 or 3 tone lighting model. Basically, imagine a normally lit character and make the resulting light for each pixel map to only 2 or 3 different values. So any parts being below a given light intensity would have the same dark shade while everything else gets the same light shade. With 3 tone shading you have an additonal bright tone for light intensities larger than a given value (think specular highlights).
It can of course be combinations. Dragon quest only has the outline while link has the toon shading going but not the outline.
It can of course be combinations. Dragon quest only has the outline while link has the toon shading going but not the outline.
anotheriori
Member
means to remove gradient shading, so that there are fewer hard shades. it also seems like DC2 and DQVIII use some kind of texture or not realistic shadow/shading also.
Let me try to sort it out for you. That first game appears to use cell shading but it is a little hard to see because it has detail in the textures. It doesn't use an outline. Fear effect and zelda use cell shading. Dragon quest uses just an outline with a cell shaded like look drawn into the textures.
That's just a guess though because I only actually have played Zelda out of those games.
God that game looks beautiful, I have to get that.
That's just a guess though because I only actually have played Zelda out of those games.
God that game looks beautiful, I have to get that.
emomoonbase
I'm free 2night after my LARPing guild meets.
I think the ones with the dark outlines look better IMO. It has nice contrast and makes them visually pop more.
toon shading usually refers to the lighting model (usually light the model, and use the luminance to index into a linear texture that only has 2-3 colors, thus yielding the hard transition between light and dark that's characteristic of, say, zelda:TWW)
the outlining process is a screen-space post processing effect (doing this well is a whole other can of worms). on GCN one technique used involves marking every primitive with a number that says "this belongs to a certain surface", then doing another pass on the entire image and saying "we just transitioned from surface A to surface B, so let's draw a black dot here". you can imagine that getting prettier lines like in okami or viewtiful joe or naruto requires fancier techniques.
the outlining process is a screen-space post processing effect (doing this well is a whole other can of worms). on GCN one technique used involves marking every primitive with a number that says "this belongs to a certain surface", then doing another pass on the entire image and saying "we just transitioned from surface A to surface B, so let's draw a black dot here". you can imagine that getting prettier lines like in okami or viewtiful joe or naruto requires fancier techniques.
SolidSnakex
Member
I want this quality next gen
<stating the obvious>
Cel Shading or Toon Shading are just types of Non-Photorealistic Rendering. Using a combination of post-process linework and abstract lighting methods in conjunction with stylized models, texures, and animations. All of these things work together to create a stylized method of rendering a scene.
</stating the obvious>
But really, all of the images from all the games shown above are just different non-photorealistic rendering styles using all of the visual tools we developers have always had available for a while. Different marketing catch phrases have been used to try and sell different games on their unique art styles. That's it.
The worst was that period when reviewers and forum memes called cel shading 'the new lens flare'...or any new techinique for that method.
-Gary
Cel Shading or Toon Shading are just types of Non-Photorealistic Rendering. Using a combination of post-process linework and abstract lighting methods in conjunction with stylized models, texures, and animations. All of these things work together to create a stylized method of rendering a scene.
</stating the obvious>
But really, all of the images from all the games shown above are just different non-photorealistic rendering styles using all of the visual tools we developers have always had available for a while. Different marketing catch phrases have been used to try and sell different games on their unique art styles. That's it.
The worst was that period when reviewers and forum memes called cel shading 'the new lens flare'...or any new techinique for that method.
-Gary
yup it's a very old-school RPG, emphasis on levels, armor, explorings and dungeons things like that.elostyle said:I have not actually played one yet. I read everywhere that it is a very classical RPG. Have trouble believing that because it looks so cinematic though
Random encounters?
Cinematic and DQ don't really go together.
This topic again?
It's all NPR - cel-shaing, toon-shading(that's how Nintendo refers to Celda the last time I checked, anyway), whatever you wanna call it. I'll just say that DQ8 looks much more like a living cartoon than Wind Waker, it's really quite amazing. Some of the monsters truly look like 2D sprites come to life. Level 5's games don't just apply an outline to regular graphics, the shading they use on the characters isn't precisely "normal". It's not "baked on textures" either, like somebody said. If you want a true example of that go play Mega Man Legends I and II.
It's all NPR - cel-shaing, toon-shading(that's how Nintendo refers to Celda the last time I checked, anyway), whatever you wanna call it. I'll just say that DQ8 looks much more like a living cartoon than Wind Waker, it's really quite amazing. Some of the monsters truly look like 2D sprites come to life. Level 5's games don't just apply an outline to regular graphics, the shading they use on the characters isn't precisely "normal". It's not "baked on textures" either, like somebody said. If you want a true example of that go play Mega Man Legends I and II.
Oni Link 666
Member
It's kind of hard to tell sometimes what is really using cell shading. Sometimes games just use it on a few things and not many people notice. For example, I didn't know Super Mario Sunshine used it until someone pointed it out to me. Look at the Pianta guy (and Mario's skin?).
Here's a pretty good page about cel shading:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1438.asp
If you don't actually understand what the page talks about, don't bother using the term in the future, because chances are you'll be misusing it. It's particularly excruciating when people write cell instead of cel. It's called cel shading because of the cels artists used for creating animations.
Super Mario Sunshine most definitely does not use cel shading. DDS looks like it does, but the shading on those breasts slightly breaks the mould. Killer 7 is a great example of cel shading too, though that uses some extra effects from time to time, like DDS.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1438.asp
If you don't actually understand what the page talks about, don't bother using the term in the future, because chances are you'll be misusing it. It's particularly excruciating when people write cell instead of cel. It's called cel shading because of the cels artists used for creating animations.
Super Mario Sunshine most definitely does not use cel shading. DDS looks like it does, but the shading on those breasts slightly breaks the mould. Killer 7 is a great example of cel shading too, though that uses some extra effects from time to time, like DDS.
Date of Lies
Banned
Rogues Galaxy? That game has entered my radar now. Level-5's on it? Looks like the next skies of arcadia or something.SolidSnakex said:I want this quality next gen
if you really want to know what cel-shading is read this tutorial
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/celshading/
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/celshading/
DQVIII is cell shaded. there is hard-lined cellshading (Zelda) and soft-toned cellshading (DQVIII) but the process is applied identically.
The difference between cell-shading (hard or soft) and traiditonal shading is that traditional shading applies shadows across the entire face of the object in an additive proces to the etxtures already there. cellshading provides a solid single tone shadow across only a portion of the face and is not additive but masked. the difference between styles here is how the shadow blends with the unshaded face (either hard or gradually).
edit - I see someone mentioned something similar already. Just as there is more than one way to draw a cartoon, there is more than one way to do cell shading. Cell shading isn't determined by how something looks, it is the process of reducing the number of shades of a shadow to change the face of an object. In that manner, DQVIII is cellshaded.
The difference between cell-shading (hard or soft) and traiditonal shading is that traditional shading applies shadows across the entire face of the object in an additive proces to the etxtures already there. cellshading provides a solid single tone shadow across only a portion of the face and is not additive but masked. the difference between styles here is how the shadow blends with the unshaded face (either hard or gradually).
edit - I see someone mentioned something similar already. Just as there is more than one way to draw a cartoon, there is more than one way to do cell shading. Cell shading isn't determined by how something looks, it is the process of reducing the number of shades of a shadow to change the face of an object. In that manner, DQVIII is cellshaded.
olimario said:
most of what you see in DQVIII IS NOT shaded. most of what you see is in fact drawn on to the texture. this is exemplified that in many scenes in the game each character is lit differently, or the fact that shadows don't fall on the character matching their actual form.
however when the characters ARE ACTUALLY shaded, it is a reduce shade shadow that is drawn across them. regardless of what you actually think it looks like, the process is cellshaded. the shading you are referring to is actually faked with textures.
slidewinder
Banned
Cymbal Head
Banned
IMHO, still the best-looking cel-shaded game EVAR.
Apharmd Battler
Member
Cymbal Head said:
IMHO, still the best-looking cel-shaded game EVAR.
Nice avatar!! <thumbs up>