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Game of Thrones is bad. Like, really bad. Here's why. (Spoilers)

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Faddy

Banned
A) Travel is very much not only shown when there are barriers or obstacles to be overcome by it, case and point Samwell Tarly, unless ofc we count him puking on a boat as a barrier or obstacle, or maybe it was all an elaborate fat joke from the show creators, and they are proposing that he is so fat that him being fat is a barrier or obstacle.

B) My point wasn't that they had to show people travel, merely that traveling takes time, so to have people travel journeys that would take them months to possibly years and put that on the same episodes (let alone same seasons) of people doing things that would just take a few hours, is at the very least a severe editing issue.

As for a specific example I give you little finger and the teleporting vale army, which just moved itself instantly as needed with no real issues, I mean its not as if they have to basically travel through a bunch of Bolton controlled north to get to Winterfell.

Another example that springs to mind is the teleporting Sand Snakes, which were seen looking at the boat leaving for kings landing and then next time we see them they are inside the boat.

I mean maybe I'm just picky, but that is the sort of leap in time and space that I think deserves some acknowledgement and an explanation, now granted I can definitely see it all being explained by just time passing, given enough time it is potentially possible to invent time travel, go back in time and give them teleporting technology to overcome these issues, but you know sounds a bit far fetched even if we believe the theory that the show is actually sci-fi.

A. Sam is travelling in turmoil and not just from being seasick, he needs to tell Gilly he is ditching her and he has to confront his father. Thematically it makes sense to have this reveal happen when he is at a weak point.

B. No journey takes years. The world just isn't that big.

The Vale army marched to the North, what is your problem? Maybe they even took a few ships across the Bite. It doesn't matter, their journey was without incident.

The Sand Snakes scenes were just shown out of order. After Jaime/Bronn/Myrcella leave on the ship two Sand Snakes follow and Ellaria + other Snake go and kill Doran. The stupidity and complications of their plan doesn't make it a timeline travel problem. It is more of a storyboard/editing problem.

Calling it "leaps in time and space" like soldiers need a TARDIS to walk from place to place exaggerates the issue and makes the whole thing sound dumb. If you want to frame as the show taking too many liberties with editing and improperly linking scenes together go ahead but shouting JETPACKS!!! is going get you hit with arguments that people walking places is boring (see AFFC) and unneeded.
 

riotous

Banned
Also a complete thematic mangling of the original series and trying to be edgier than the books.

Show Hound- Same dude in the end.

This opinion is just ridiculous to me; I've never read the books. The show clearly portrayed an evolution of his character over the years.

He then also more recently enacted a bloody revenge when his more peaceful life was shattered by violence.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Sorry your head cannon doesn't match reality.

In many ways the show was overly kind in its portrayal, especially to Stannis.

I'm not sure how. Like Book Stannis' middle child syndrome was erased from Show Stannis, sure, but Book Stannis still actually has a soul and a backbone.

I mean GRRM has been clear that his Stannis does things because he's a man of duty rather than ambition.

Book Stannis has to be convinced to burn his bastard nephew with the death of three kings and he hasn't committed to doing it by the time Davos saves his nephew even after those three kings die.

Show Stannis was all in on killing Gendry from the start until Davos convinces to make Melisandre prove herself first with the death of one king.

Book Stannis was happy when he found out Davos was alive. Show Stannis is pretty matter of fact of it.

I'm not sure Book Stannis even realizes that Melisandre used a piece of him to kill Renly considering how confused he is when Davos accuses Melisandre of it while Show Stannis was all in on it

Then there's how they portray Show Renly as the sympathetic, good king in comparison to Show Stannis as the bad king.

In the books, you have Renly threatening to kill Robb same as Stannis to Cat and Renly being pretty happy with killing of Stannis. I mean at least Book Stannis is extremely sad about Renly's death. Like Book Renly is a ruthless son of a bitch. It's no coincidence that he and Littlefinger are friends while Show Renly hates Littlefinger.

But I digress.

A big party of this has to do with the fact that Benioff and Weiss have only intermittently understood Stannis as a character. If you watch the various Inside the Episode, character introduction, and other videos that Benioff and Weiss have done from Season 2 onwards, it doesn’t seem like Benioff and Weiss have really understood Stannis as a character – for example, their comments that Stannis is driven primarily from ambition (as opposed to duty), or that his statements about justice are entirely self-justifying, since justice would require him to be king.

Moreover, throughout the series, Benioff and Weiss have shown a lack of interest in themes versus results, especially when it comes to “what matters.” There’s a strong emphasis on outcomes above all else – Tyrion has to kill Shae and Tywin, but it doesn’t matter why; Jon Snow has to be assassinated by the Night’s Watch but it doesn’t matter why it happens; Myrcella has to die, but it doesn’t matter how or why this happens, nor does the AFFC Dorne storyline’s ruminations on the futility of vengeance. So I think what they concluded is that Stannis’ failure to summon a dragon, the fact that he’s not really Azor Ahai, means that nothing that happens along the way really matters. Stannis can die a defeated and broken man, ignoring the basic story structure of tragedy, and the defeat of the Boltons can be handed off to some weird combination of Northmen and possibly Littlefinger. That approach loses is the richness of George R.R Martin’s world, the depth and complexity of character he insists on giving not just to the main protagonists like Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, but also secondary characters like Stannis and Melisandr
 
I have mixed feelings about the show but essentially everything in this strikes me as wrong

1. Characterisation

Remember in the books, when Tyrion almost raped Sansa (who is twelve) on their wedding night before changing his mind? Or when he raped that sex slave in Volantis? How he repeatedly thinks about how much he wants to rape Cersei? Or when he threatens to rape and murder Tommen just to get at Cersei? Well, show Tyrion would never do that. He is Such A Good Guy. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. He's also quite clearly D&D's favourite character. The difference being that in the latter case, every other character on the show has to warp to accommodate him. Daenerys literally gets kicked out of her ADWD plotline so Tyrion can take over and show off how Awesome he is and how much better he is at ruling. Sansa kneels at her wedding, destroying one of her strongest acts of resistance in the books all for the sake of Tyrion not looking bad. He's such a good guy, why WOULDN'T Sansa kneel for him? God, what a bitch. And, lest we forget, Tyrion is the Abe Lincoln of his time. He's also the most famous dwarf in the world, and he is The Gift.

You seem very upset that the books aren't the TV show.

Plot and writing

Even people who still like the show admit the writing is pretty awful. And it really is. Nothing makes sense. Ellaria decides to avenge Oberyn by... murdering his entire family. And no one seems to have any problems with a bastard woman taking over Dorne?

Because the writing is so bad we actually have a very good understanding of why she did this. She announces to the king that she is murdering him because he sat idly by as Oberyn's sister was raped and murdered, and as Dorne's stock in the world declines.

Arya is a hot fucking mess. She kills the Waif, who hates her for no apparent reason, and this makes her no one?

The Waif hates her because she feels, probably correctly, that Arya is not worthy of the invitation to train. Jaqen explains what happens after that: the Many-Faced God (i.e. Death) had a kill stolen from him, and the kill must be repaid, it seems unimportant to their philosophy who the kill is. Again, this mostly seems a projection that you like their philosophy in the book better than in the show. And it's not really clear that Arya is in any """"official"""" capacity "No One", rather that she mastered the skills required to quit and go on her own. If someone drops out of school 3 years in, they don't get a degree, but that doesn't mean it's surprising that they have enough knowledge to go do a job. If you're asking why Jaqen doesn't try to kill her for leaving, that seems to be a loose end, but not one you expressed in your rant.

Stannis getting annihilated by Ser Twenty of House Goodmen, then deciding to burn his daughter because they've been without food for like a day, even though he's the man who survived the siege of Storm's End by eating book leather and rats for A YEAR?

I have no idea what any of this is about but the show pretty clearly motivates Stannis (and his wife's) actions by their religious fervor and delusions of grandeur. It's also pretty clearly articulated that Stannis in some regards rejects his daughter because of the greyscale. He is a bad father and a bad man. It's not exactly confusing what goes on here, and even during the burning his wife realizes what a grave transgression it was and how they've lost sight of what's important

Robb deciding to say fuck it to his marriage vows and marrying Talisa because YOLO (as opposed to doing it for honour, which creates a parallel with Ned, hmm, it's almost like this is a THEME or something) which leads directly to the deaths of him, his wife, his unborn child and his mother. Nice one, Robb. I could go on.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but the show pretty straightforwardly motivates him as doing whatever it takes for love, which is a motif that is recurrent in the show: Brienne; Jaime; and Jon. Making a character have less connection to Ned and more to other characters thematically isn't a right or wrong decision, it's just you're mad that the show isn't the books.

Every character has a jetpack and Westeros exists in a warp that distorts time. This is the only explanation I can think of for the timeline. Yara goes from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort in less than a season, even though this would require sailing around the entire continent, but Gilly's baby is still a baby and Myrcella has been in Dorne for years! Littlefinger is a most industrious teleporter, zipping from the Eyrie to Moat Cailin to Mole's Town in a matter of days, apparently. Sansa and Jon's walking tour of the North takes months, presumably, but Cersei's trial is "in a few days". And Jaime got all the way from Dorne to King's Landing, but Doran has only just received news of Myrcella's death? This attempt at a coherent timeline makes for fun reading.

Almost all of this seems based on maps in the books. The world is smaller in the show. There are occasional instances where continuity gets whacky, particularly with respect to Littlefinger and Varys, but you seem very upset that the TV show doesn't go into as much geographic detail as the books.

"Themes are for eighth grade book reports," an actual quote by David Benioff

ASOIAF is a very thematically cohesive body of work. Themes of identity ("Theon, my name is Theon, you have to know your name"), themes of family and love, the intersection of the personal and political, so on. Game of Thrones dislikes themes, because according to the showrunners, who have Masters degrees in Creative Writing, themes are for eighth grade book reports. No, I will not stop quoting that, because it will never stop being stupid. It's almost like Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs are direct parallels to each other or something? And that Sandor as the gravedigger is finally at peace? That Cersei is a foil to basically every major female character, like Sansa, Dany, Arianne, Catelyn, Arya, and Brienne? Brienne and Jaime's arcs in AFFC also parallel each other, as both struggle with questions of what it means to be a knight, and what the true meaning of honour is, and with their place in the world - Brienne as a woman who does not conform to gender expectations, and Jaime as a disabled person. In the show Jaime's disability is mostly forgotten (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had to point out to D&D that Jaime might have trouble fighting now that, you know, his sword hand is chopped off) and Brienne is just a murdering brute who doesn't seem to question herself at all. The show's themes consist of "revenge is good!". Sansa sics dogs on Ramsay, Arya brutally murders people, Brienne abandons Sansa to kill Stannis yet faces no repercussions for this decision, and all of these are portrayed as good things. Even though they're actually kind of disturbing.

There is a lot here, but lots of themes exist in Game of Thrones. From the outset, Ned Stark executes a traitor--one that we sympathize--for honor. This sets up Ned as an honorable person, and the value and costs of honor are a theme that the show engages with repeatedly. Consider the execution of the traitors against Jon Snow. A perverse karma: that cruelty happens to good and bad alike is also a feature of the show. We see bad people be punished and cheer, but we equally see unfair and despicable acts of cruelty. Brienne repeatedly engages with her gender, both in totally over the top exposition dialogue sequences and in how she carries herself. How many times does she have to correct people about not being a knight? This season featured an entire bottle episode about the Hound whose primary theme was an examination of whether it is possible to escape the trauma inflicted on one by one's upbringing (the show answers a pessimistic no). The show's politics repeatedly have a hoist-by-ones-petard quality: Cersei takes action against Margaery, and the same action has her swept up by the sept. Ditto the Red Wedding. Ditto basically every story, including the origin story of the White Walkers: in their efforts to control men by creating White Walkers, the Children of the Forest are destroyed by their creations. The shift from a Machievellian realpolitik where all political actions are motivated solely by power to the nuance of making the world a better place expressed by both Dany and Tyrion mirrors the shift from pre-modern Divine Rule of Kings to the prescriptions of modernity and liberal thought. Dany's takeover of the Khal mirrors Muhammed's takeover of Bedouin Arabia. Just because you miss this stuff doesn't mean it's not there. Sorry.

No, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Brienne and Ellaria brutally and remorselessly murdering people is not "empowering". Violence isn't empowering. Violence is just violent.

Every serious examination of violence, including rape, motivates and grounds it in the expression of power; and every serious examination of power, including political power, motivates and grounds it in the expression of violence. You would be laughed out of a room of anyone with ten brain cells if you claimed that violence and power were not connected. That the show is also pornographic in its depiction of violence and much of it is thematically unearned is a problem, but you badly miss.

Then there's the Dothraki, who are admittedly problematic in the book as well, but this is taken up to eleven in the show. Dany burns down their most sacred temple with all their khals inside and instead of killing her they bow to her, because those savage brown people know their place.

This is so explicitly a metaphor for Muhammed's taming of the Bedouin Arab world it isn't funny. The rules and guidelines of Islam are all clearly and cleanly read as a historical response to divisions in the Bedouin world: Why is Islam so hung up on the sanctity of Allah and his name? Because of idolatry and multitheism in the Bedouin world. Why does Islam have such specific rules about marriage? Because even though they seem premodern, they replaced sexual conquest and slavery from the pre-Islamic Arab world. And like Danaerys, Muhammed subdued the Bedouin world through conquest and violence, not merely preaching and conversion. Modernization processes (or development processes if you rather) is sometimes organic, and it is sometimes through violent conquest. Your desire to see this through a racial lens misses and obvious and nonracial historical metaphor. Even the horses are a 1:1 metaphor.

And Tyrion whitesplaining to Missandei and Grey Worm in Meereen, fucking kill me. When Missandei told Tyrion he didn't understand what it was to be a slave I fucking cheered. You go girl. Tell that condescending asshole.

You seem to view this as racist, but you correctly observe that Tyrion's privilege is addressed and problematized in the show. A show engaging with imperialism is not the same as a show being imperialist.

And then in season 6, the gay man gets tortured and scarified with religious iconography before getting blown up.

Yes, because the church's hypocritical and abusive moral code causes a pogrom across the city, one that ultimately ends in violence to all parties.

Oberyn and Ellaria, both bisexual, live in a fucking brothel. In the book, Oberyn makes an offhand comment about them "sharing a beautiful blonde", but they also have four young children together and are doting parents. But no, those crazy brown bisexuals amirite.

However the books write these two, the show writes them as libertines and hedonists. This is both a historical thing and something present in the modern world. The show doesn't slut shame them and they are given ample opportunity to explain their philosophical views on love, sex, possession, jealousy, and pleasure. That they happen to be what appears to be southern Italian or north African seems wholly unimportant to their portrayal. I guessed that Dorne was supposed to be Majorca or maybe Crete geographically and the people were somewhere between Sicilian and Moroccan. I'm not an architect but visually the setting made me think of Islamic Spain. Is there a racial stereotype about people from that part of our world and unchained sex? To me libertinism and hedonism seem more to be an indictment of historical cultures like late Rome or post-revolutionary France. Do you have a different read of history?

Ableism. Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. He stops a sword with his golden hand! How wacky.

This is totally bizarre. Modern dis/ability studies and standpoint theory typically reconceive "disability" as diversity: that each person has something to contribute, and while we require respect and awareness of disability, we also need to allow the disabled to forge their own paths, and recognize that to the extent that disability shapes someone, it also gives them a valuable and different perspective. This is true for everything from studies of autism to studies of intellectual or physical impairment. Certainly it would be eye-rolling and ableist if this was a Captain Planet 1980s Liberal Superpower thing, but that's not at all how the show portrays it. In that particular fight, Jaime tries to catch the sword out of reflex, as we see several characters (including the Hound) throughout the show do. It's a risky gambit that comes with great chance of injury, but can provide the character the opportunity to counter and go for the kill. At the moment Jaime grabs it, there's a Wile E. Coyote moment where he's off the cliff but hasn't realized he's going to fall yet. Jaime and his aggressor alike are not expecting what happens. Jaime quickly capitalizes on the opening, showing his tactical skill in spite of the fact that he's a weaker swordfighter than he once was. Moreover, above you complain that Jaime's disability is insufficiently relevant to the show--but when would it be relevant if not combat, and how would it be relevant if not a scene that primarily demonstrates Jaime's diminished capacity as a swordsman?

And Hodor, because disability can't just be, it has to have a reason behind it. I know this is taken from the books

This is a thematic statement about a recurring thing in the books where the elite, the nobles, and the strong use and discard the weak and ordinary. Hodor is a peasant kid growing up in the circle of nobility. He is loyal and wants to help. And in the end, due to time loop shenanigans, a little noble just now understanding the burden of leading makes a choice to sacrifice Hodor's entire life. It also recasts Hodor as a tragic figure: the person we once thought was simple but happy in fact suffered from being locked in his entire life, knowing the fate that would one day befall him. Poignant.


This is an extremely bad blog rant and I have no idea why the thread was left open because there is essentially no argument made here, it's just an enormous info dump about book canon combined with some recycled Vox thinkpiece rants about social issues in Game of Thrones.

The show is not an amazing show for so many reasons (pacing, plotting, overly literal interpretations of the book, boring combat setpieces, stale writing, sexposition, too many characters, too much moving the pieces around the board, inconsistent characterization being passed off poorly as nuance) but almost none of them have anything you raise here.
Pretty much sums up my thought better than I could have written
 

jtb

Banned
The Game of Thrones books are harmless, juvenile fun.

The show is an incoherent mess that would be more forgivable if its sexual politics weren't fucking appalling. Oh well.
 

Black_Sun

Member
This opinion is just ridiculous to me; I've never read the books. The show clearly portrayed an evolution of his character over the years.

He then also more recently enacted a bloody revenge when his more peaceful life was shattered by violence.

But that's the problem. He's the same vengeance-obsessed dude he was in season 1.

If he had taken out some development from his time in the village to permanently affect his character, I could see it but he just regresses back to who he was.

He's still trigger-happy to kill those outlaws. If he had instead reflected on the Septon's words to instead give up vengeance-killing in the end when he catches them then we might have something here.
 

duckroll

Member
*visual representation of what stump did to the OP*

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8wIyNXI.gif
 

Nameless

Member
The book/show comparisons get incredibly tiring, especially since the people who insist on making do so from a place of blatant bias while refusing to take the core differences of the mediums into account.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Let's be clear, book Hound is clearly coming back and it will be thematically important for his character.

Love your last comment though, Martin is clearly a romantic and whenever people talk about how depressing/overly negative the world is I get confused, like it's not anymore negative than our actual world, and I don't really see how someone could read say Theon's arc and not believe it's one of the most beautiful/hopeful/human/optimistic pieces of work ever put down to page.

The Hound's probably not coming back in the books. The show producers made this clear when they said they don't know if GRRM is ever going to use him again when they brought back Show Hound. And they've been pretty happy to let us know when things come from the books other-wise.
 

mantidor

Member
In the books his sexuality is never really expanded on at all, nor is he much of a character at all.

I'll take a somewhat stereotypical representation and gratuitous gay sex scenes over having the only gay representation be some nonexplicit remarks about minor side characters.

Renly was not a minor character he was one of the five kings!

Loras is no minor character either.

Is his part that small in the books? I can't believe it.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Lulz at ASoIaF being consistent. The books have been downhill since the middle of book 3 and are only getting worse.

The tv show isn't great but it's the only thing we have now.

Bruh. The last half of Book 3 is widely considered the best part of the series. I'm sorry the Red Wedding hurt you but this has been widely accepted as gospel among the fandom whether they're casual or not.
 
This is an extremely bad blog rant and I have no idea why the thread was left open because there is essentially no argument made here, it's just an enormous info dump about book canon combined with some recycled Vox thinkpiece rants about social issues in Game of Thrones.
Thank. You. I've been sitting at work all day, reading this thread. I was readying to write a thorough rebuttal when I arrived home. However, my biggest confusion throughout today was HOW this garnered so many replies. It read like a rant from Dennis Miller, without the substance. And many of the descriptions of characters came off like OP was upset they weren't likable, instead of thinking about how they exist within the world the TV show has set up.

So once again, thank you for blowing it to pieces.
 

Astral Dog

Member
i love Game of Thrones except maybe Season 5. Its a bit crude at times but very entertaining with awesome score and twists
 

Black_Sun

Member
In the books his sexuality is never really expanded on at all, nor is he much of a character at all.

I'll take a somewhat stereotypical representation and gratuitous gay sex scenes over having the only gay representation be some nonexplicit remarks about minor side characters.

We have a lot more main gay characters in the book series than the show.

Like Daenerys, Cersei, Euron Greyjoy and Jon Connington

Daenerys and Cersei even have a sex scene with another lady.

And a lot of explicitly gay side characters Daxos, Irri and Taena Meeryweather.

And Oberyn is explicitly mentioned to be bisexual by Jaime Lannister and Arianne Martell.
 
I have my issues with the show, and some are due to the decisions they made in the adaptation, but some of the changes I think were good as well. Some of the major beats they've hit pretty well

My main issues with it are the changes to Sansa's character (her being given to Ramsay makes no sense from any character's perspective except Ramsay's... Littlefinger would have never made that move). Also Jaime's.

Also, the line mentioned by Missandei that Tyrion "doesn't know what it's like to be a slave" is pretty messed up because in the book he actually does. They decided to skip all the pig-riding, humiliated Tyrion stuff which I think really diminishes his character arc a lot.

I also don't think they've done enough to show how badly Dany is getting played.

And let's not even get started with Dorne and the Sand Snakes. If they were going to go that route I almost wish they had cut Dorne altogether.

I think they've done decently well with Bran and Arya so far, as well as Sam. Did great with Tywin. Gotta love Bronn's character.

Not everything has been done great but considering the difficulty of it all it hasn't been a disaster, which is saying something.
 
Damn, Stumpo. That was great.

I typically tread carefully around intersectionality complaints against entertainment unless there's something I can provide insight into as a neuro-atypical, or mixed-race-family-having dude. I figure it's good to let people speak up about those issues, even if, like the OP, they're pretty off and citing bad examples, just because awareness requires vigilance and the discussion is usually illuminating when trying to figure out the internal line you are or aren't willing to cross to accommodate that criticism.

Still, there was a lot wrong with the OP, IMO -- I frowned at many of the examples -- and someone needed to give it a proper breakdown.
 

Astral Dog

Member
We have a lot more main gay characters in the book series than the show.

Like Daenerys, Cersei, Euron Greyjoy and Jon Connington

Daenerys and Cersei even have a sex scene with another lady.

And a lot of explicitly gay side characters Daxos, Irri and Taena Meeryweather.

And Oberyn is explicitly mentioned to be bisexual by Jaime Lannister and Arianne Martell.
Oberyn is also Bi on the show.
Anyways,i get him you could show lots of Gay characters but they simply decided to expand on Loras.,Renly and a few others,just like they have to cut lots of scenes and characters (somewhat clumsingly at times)
 

Ratrat

Member
Oberyn is also Bi on the show.
Anyways,i get him you could show lots of Gay characters but they simply decided to expand on Loras.,Renly and a few others,just like they have to cut lots of scenes and characters (somewhat clumsingly at times)
Expand? They reduced him to a joke to fit a plot that makes no sense.
 
The book/show comparisons get incredibly tiring, especially since the people who insist on making do so from a place of blatant bias while refusing to take the core differences of the mediums into account.

Basically, otherwise they wouldn't complain about the travelling, who wants to wait for people to travel? They should show them pooping while we're a it.

The reality is that a lot of details are going to get left out because of the differences in the mediums, it'll always be like that.
 

Astral Dog

Member
Expand? They reduced him to a joke to fit a plot that makes no sense.
You mean the church thing? I thought it was interesting how everybody left him alone despite homosexuality being considered a grave sin and aberration because he was a good warrior until these overzealous fanatics were used by Cersei to get her revenge.
Nobody really cared he was gay
 
Damn, Stumpo. That was great.

I typically tread carefully around intersectionality complaints against entertainment unless there's something I can provide insight into as a neuro-atypical, or mixed-race-family-having dude. I figure it's good to let people speak up about those issues, even if, like the OP, they're pretty off and citing bad examples, just because awareness requires vigilance and the discussion is usually illuminating when trying to figure out the internal line you are or aren't willing to cross to accommodate that criticism.

Still, there was a lot wrong with the OP, IMO -- I frowned at many of the examples -- and someone needed to give it a proper breakdown.

Already done here:

TUN: Blame of Thrones

And, with even further nitty gritty details, here:

 
Bruh. The last half of Book 3 is widely considered the best part of the series. I'm sorry the Red Wedding hurt you but this has been widely accepted as gospel among the fandom whether they're casual or not.

The Red Wedding didn't hurt me because it was telegraphed halfway through the book when Robb Stark says "I'm not dead yet mother."

If you can't see how the decline in quality starts in book 3 then I dunno what to tell you. It's not out and out bad like book 4a but it is where he lost the plot. Which isn't surprising as his original concept barely went past the Red Wedding so he was out of material by then.
 
no-Will-Ferrell-nope-no-way-GIF.gif


Good films or TV shows will never be as good as reading a book. Mainly due to your own mind creating what you think you see, so it's more to your taste. That doesn't make a show/film bad though.

what a load of shit. People should be able to prefer the visual medium over books without being told they're wrong.

If you understand the collaborative artwork that goes into movies/tv you have a very different appreciation for it
 

Ratrat

Member
You mean the church thing? I thought it was interesting how everybody left him alone despite homosexuality being considered a grave sin and aberration because he was a good warrior until these overzealous fanatics were used by Cersei to get her revenge.
Nobody really cared he was gay
Notice how Littlefingers gay patrons were murdered on the spot. And yet they let Littlefinger walk free...
Arresting the heir to Highgarden because a whore(how the hell was he able to squire) saw a birthmark...deminishes the mysogyny of the whole affair which is what Martin was trying to highlight.
 

Faddy

Banned
We have a lot more main gay characters in the book series than the show.

Like Daenerys, Cersei, Euron Greyjoy and Jon Connington

Daenerys and Cersei even have a sex scene with another lady.

And a lot of explicitly gay side characters Daxos, Irri and Taena Meeryweather.

And Oberyn is explicitly mentioned to be bisexual by Jaime Lannister and Arianne Martell.

Being horny does not make a character gay. The fact that GRRM wrote titillating lesbian scenes for his (almost) adult female leads has nothing to do with characterisation and much more with him being indulgent. Most of the time Cersei and Dany spend their days yearning for men.

I don't think Euron counts either PREVIEW CHAPTER SPOILERS
In the Forsaken chapter it is made clear Euron sexually abuses his brother Aeron
 
The Hound's probably not coming back in the books. The show producers made this clear when they said they don't know if GRRM is ever going to use him again when they brought back Show Hound. And they've been pretty happy to let us know when things come from the books other-wise.
He's coming back, I'd bet my left toe on it.
 

KahooTs

Member
He's coming back, I'd bet my left toe on it.
Sometimes it feels like ASOIAF is the first fictional story people have ever read. How could anyone who has presumably spent atleast 14 years in the world have any doubt Sandor Clegane is coming back to do epic heroic true knightly shit?
 

Ratrat

Member
Being horny does not make a character gay. The fact that GRRM wrote titillating lesbian scenes for his (almost) adult female leads has nothing to do with characterisation and much more with him being indulgent. Most of the time Cersei and Dany spend their days yearning for men.

I don't think Euron counts either PREVIEW CHAPTER SPOILERS
In the Forsaken chapter it is made clear Euron sexually abuses his brother Aeron
With Cercei it actually reveals things about her character. She takes a role of a sadistic male, exuding power.
Its the exact opposite of Asha who comes off as more confident in her position and take a more submissive role.
 

Micael

Member
A. Sam is travelling in turmoil and not just from being seasick, he needs to tell Gilly he is ditching her and he has to confront his father. Thematically it makes sense to have this reveal happen when he is at a weak point.

B. No journey takes years. The world just isn't that big.

The Vale army marched to the North, what is your problem? Maybe they even took a few ships across the Bite. It doesn't matter, their journey was without incident.

The Sand Snakes scenes were just shown out of order. After Jaime/Bronn/Myrcella leave on the ship two Sand Snakes follow and Ellaria + other Snake go and kill Doran. The stupidity and complications of their plan doesn't make it a timeline travel problem. It is more of a storyboard/editing problem.

Calling it "leaps in time and space" like soldiers need a TARDIS to walk from place to place exaggerates the issue and makes the whole thing sound dumb. If you want to frame as the show taking too many liberties with editing and improperly linking scenes together go ahead but shouting JETPACKS!!! is going get you hit with arguments that people walking places is boring (see AFFC) and unneeded.

A) So what about the rest of his journey, and other characters journeys that presented a ton of scenes without obstacles of barriers?
The show has pure and simply done a ton of characterization during travel on this show, right from episode 1 even, when ned stark and robert sit down and have a talk about jon snow, to say travel is only shown under those circumstances is demonstrably false.

B) Sure lets focus on the years bit, which granted unless you are doing a significant journey isn't happening, although it has taken years for the white walkers to arrive, so I would argue even in the show we have an example of a journey taking years.

So the journey of the Vale army through enemy occupied territory to lay an ambush was without incident?
If we are going for implausible stuff like that, and you don't think there is nothing wrong there then yeah everything is fine.

By the previous logic of without incident, then the sand snakes also actually watched the boat first, and then got inside it, after all they could have just grabbed a boat, sailed towards the other boat, borded it without incident (hence not being shown), and killed him. However personally I found that to be a whole lot of bullshit.

Also I really cannot stress how much of an understatement "like soldiers need a TARDIS to walk from place to place" is, it isn't just them traveling next door, is thousands of men, traveling around a thousand miles through enemy occupied territory, an enemy which is dispersed no less, doing it in the winter (well not winter winter, but lots of snow and cold), and doing it all without incident.

They would likely easily spend a couple of months just to do that journey, and how would they feed themselves keep themselves warm, take care of the horses (which are pretty fragile), lets remember its the north and the winter is basically here, armies of the time needed to forage, feeding an army in the winter in the north on foraging is basically impossible.
So here are your choices:
A) Get supply lines through enemy territory, which is at the very least tricky, especially since you would be passing through Moat Cailin the ancestral home of the boltons
B) Take a ton of food with you, which would slow you down a lot meaning you would spend a lot more time in enemy territory
C) Use the enemy infrastructure, which would raise some alarms I would say.
D) Rush your army through it Hannibal style, but that only diminishes the possibility of being detected (it would still be borderline impossible), and it would mean losing men and horses along the way, not something that I would call incident free.
E) Get some boats, put your army in those boats, I don't think there is a nearby port in the Vale, so you would likely go either through lannister of bolton territory, get your men on those boats, you will be spotted, people will talk about it, move to another port in enemy controlled territory, get out, as before you will be spotted, move your army through enemy territory, considering the position of winterfell still a long journey, so yeah good luck with that.

I'm not saying you necessarily need a Tardis, but you do need a whole lot of Invisibility cloaks.

You asked for 1 specific example, where travel isn't simply explained as the passing of time, I gave you 2 that are most definitely not just explained as "time passed", all within the last season.

And honestly in the end if you have to explain something as basic as travel with things being out of order, different time frames between stories, different time frames within the same story, different time frames within the same story and same episode, and having potentially scenes missing, then I would argue that you do in fact have a travel issue.
 
Oh no, I mean a proper breakdown of why the OP was bad

Well, OP tends to miss the forest for the trees chalking up the show being bad to the fact that Tyrion doesn't "rape" more, even though he doesn't rape anyone in the books, and focuses too much on the nitty-gritty differences from the books. When what OP should be focused on is the poor characterization in the show, the nonsensical plot, and the "spirit" of the books being lost. OP does start to get to some of that near the end but his argument is muddled with too much "it's different from the books," without exactly explaining why being different is so bad.
 

Micael

Member
Well, OP tends to miss the forest for the trees chalking up the show being bad to the fact that Tyrion doesn't "rape" more, even though he doesn't rape anyone in the books, and focuses too much on the nitty-gritty differences from the books. When what OP should be focused on is the poor characterization in the show, the nonsensical plot, and the "spirit" of the books being lost. OP does start to get to some of that near the end but his argument is muddled with too much "it's different from the books," without exactly explaining why being different is so bad.

Yaps there is so much contrivance in the show, that there is really no need to bring the books into the mix, most plot points right now have come from characters doing stuff that makes no sense, I mean Ramsay seems to have been developed just so they could go "we want this to happen, how can we do it, oh I know Ramsay wild card" and when that isn't enough they pull a sir twenty good-men lol.
 
Well, OP tends to miss the forest for the trees chalking up the show being bad to the fact that Tyrion doesn't "rape" more, even though he doesn't rape anyone in the books, and focuses too much on the nitty-gritty differences from the books. When what OP should be focused on is the poor characterization in the show, the nonsensical plot, and the "spirit" of the books being lost. OP does start to get to some of that near the end but his argument is muddled with too much "it's different from the books," without exactly explaining why being different is so bad.
Yup that would've been a much better discussion.
 

Budi

Member
I enjoy how you ignored the other parts of my post concerning S6 and feminism. Regardless of whether the show keeps to the books or not articles claiming S6 is some triumph of feminism are just plain nonsense or fail to understand what feminism is besides "women in power." S6 is full of women using violence as a means to gain ultimate power, just like everyone else in this world. That is now feminism. It's not feminism when Cercei blows up the most religious site in Westeros to destroy all her political enemies and then use her Zombie monster to rape her former Nun captor until her mind breaks. It's not feminism when Ellaria and the Sand Snakes murder their kind hearted uncle and cousin to seize Dorne in a selfish lust for revenge. It's not feminism when Aria cuts up the family members of Walder Frey and then feeds said members to him in a human stuffed pie.

Do I need to go on? All of that is just the same dumb theme that the show believes the books mainly convey, that violence is the ultimate form of power which all other derive. It's not though and just because women are currently benefiting from this concept doesn't make it feminism.

I might be mistaken, but I thought you were trying to refute that article which was linked?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/...ros-6-reasons-game-of-thrones-is-a-triumph-f/ This is why I said the books have no bearing on this. But the article gives examples on how the show can be viewed as feminist in other ways than just through power by violence. You should check it out, if you didn't. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
 

pashmilla

Banned
I might be mistaken, but I thought you were trying to refute that article which was linked?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/...ros-6-reasons-game-of-thrones-is-a-triumph-f/ This is why I said the books have no bearing on this. But the article gives examples on how the show can be viewed as feminist in other ways than just through power by violence. You should check it out.

I mean, more than a few women, including me, have issues with GoT's portrayal and treatment of female characters, and not just because of the violence=empowerment fallacy. There's definitely a problem there.
 

Speevy

Banned
My favorite recent Game of Thrones moment is how they killed Margaery, Loras, and Mace Tyrell.

The whole scene of their death is one of the best in the show's history in terms of how well it's directed and acted, but the reason why it happens is hilarious.

Margaery meets with her grandmother, the queen of thorns and basically makes it clear to her that these people are holding her captive. She fears for her grandmother's safety.

So Olenna Tyrell just...leaves. So Margaery is stuck in her situation but she lets her father stick around because fuck him, right?

Then the sept explodes killing everyone so Olenna is for whatever reason the commander of all the Tyrell forces, despite the fact that Tommen would have more than likely demanded their fealty ahead of the sept explosion and women hold no power in Westeros, something which also calls into question whether Cersei would be queen at all.

Then Olenna asks for the Dornish help, even though they're a bunch of psycho murderers who poison innocent children and Olenna has been shown to care about the plight of the truly innocent.

And to top this all off, Dany accept the help of the combo of Tyrell and Dorne, despite her own professions of wanting to break the wheel and end the cycle of Westerosi politics once and for all.

The books will likely kill the Tyrells too, but in the show's situation, wouldn't just sneaking Loras, Margaery, and Mace out in the night have made more sense?

I mean...to hear the show tell it, Varys cares more about Tyrion than Olenna did about her own blood.
 

pashmilla

Banned
My favorite recent Game of Thrones moment is how they killed Margaery, Loras, and Mace Tyrell.

The whole scene of their death is one of the best in the show's history in terms of how well it's directed and acted, but the reason why it happens is hilarious.

Margaery meets with her grandmother, the queen of thorns and basically makes it clear to her that these people are holding her captive. She fears for her grandmother's safety.

So Olenna Tyrell just...leaves. So Margaery is stuck in her situation but she lets her father stick around because fuck him, right?

Then the sept explodes killing everyone so Olenna is for whatever reason the commander of all the Tyrell forces, despite the fact that Tommen would have more than likely demanded their fealty ahead of the sept explosion and women hold no power in Westeros, something which also calls into question whether Cersei would be queen at all.

Then Olenna asks for the Dornish help, even though they're a bunch of psycho murderers who poison innocent children and Olenna has been shown to care about the plight of the truly innocent.

And to top this all off, Dany accept the help of the combo of Tyrell and Dorne, despite her own professions of wanting to break the wheel and end the cycle of Westerosi politics once and for all.

The books will likely kill the Tyrells too, but in the show's situation, wouldn't just sneaking Loras, Margaery, and Mace out in the night have made more sense?

I mean...to hear the show tell it, Varys cares more about Tyrion than Olenna did about her own blood.

Can I add that we never see Varys and Dany discussing, oh, I don't know, the fact that he tried to poison her and her unborn child in season 1? Do D&D even remember that happened?
 

Mortemis

Banned
OP, I see some arguments that I agree with (Sanaa's character for one, or the depiction of rape in some situations), but there's other arguments that I feel like you take issue with even though the way the show depicts it is it calling out the issue itself. Never mind the other issues that look like you really hate because it's different from the books.

I still enjoy the show quite a bit, but it's kinda gotten sidetracked from its clean path it had in the earlier seasons. Character plot lines don't really make sense anymore, and while I really enjoyed season six it really just felt like a fan-pandering fest. Which I've said, I enjoy (along with the increased production values), but it doesn't give me the same enjoyment as the earlier seasons.

I've got to get back to the books (even though GRRM has me in no rush to do it, lol), so I can't really talk about what's changed for the worse. Stopped at the second book a long time ago, so I may just restart.
 
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