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[Luffytubby]

Good post.

If you rewatch that battle and look at Greyworm, you can see it on his face. He's lost everything, and he's fine killing these people. It looks believable. And really with Dany it isn't that different. These people are paying for her 8 years of struggle and death. That building represents everything they fought to get to for 8 years, and they aren't going to just let that be it. It fell too quick to be worth all that 8 years, all the deaths, her dragons, her family, her friends. It's not a rational position so much as an emotional one. Again, just rewatch it and look at Greyworm and tell me it doesn't make sense what is happening with his character.

Don't forget that Cerseis plan was to let them all die against the White Walker. Half the unsullied army was decimated in that nightmarish battle. Just because they surrendered it doesn't mean the need for revenge goes away.

When the soviet soldiers entered nazi germany, something like 500,000-1,000,000 women and children were killed and raped. To the world, they were liberators, but there was very much a personal vendetta- a payback courtesy for the nazis had done in the east. And even to this day, nobody really have any tears for all these civilians whose only crime was that they lived under a tyrannical rule.

Daenerys brings up the same logic, pointing to the fact that the people of kings landing are co-accomplices to the crimes of Lannister rule. They benefit from the spoils, from the destruction of other lands and kingdoms. The people of meereen rebelled against their slave masters. If they can, then why cant the people of kings landing? Their savior has come and obviously they should sacrifice themselves. Tyrion tries to reason with her and points out that people are afraid, which does not phase her.
This sort of harsh logic is quite similar to someone like Stalin who famously talked about one death makes a murderer, a million, a statistic.

If you look at ancient rulers who had a long a prosperous and peaceful reign, more often than not you will find that it came after decimating their enemies. You kill every chance of rebellion. You leave your enemies so dismembered and broken that they will never forget the consequences of being against their queen.
And, the logic is here too- Kill 10,000s of people, to save millions down the line. That has been the logical fallout of so many dynasties and world powers. From the unification of china, to the sovereign might of the United States. One powerful dog keeps everyone else in line. We some people in the short term which is unfortunate, but in the long run there will be an age of stability.
Mercy can lead to more war. No, unification is the answer. Empire is the answer. And who is just the right person to do that despite nobody seeing it? Daenerys, thats who. And when you have dragons as your main form of diplomacy everything becomes charred barbecue.

I don't think Daenerys is the way she is because of inherited insanity. She is just entitled and empowered, and she is just making moves like everyone else. And like other cult of personality figures, she inspires loyalty and delusion. Don't we see this shit all the time even today? How many people love to ape castro despite all the shit he did? Its almost to perfect how quick people wanted to defend daenerys previous actions like she was not always a bloody tyrant. When the fuck did she do something that went against her own interest for the greater good?
When the fuck did she stop and think to herself that maybe being on the throne is not good? And when the perfect opportunity came for another rightful heir to be there, she wanted to keep it a secret, because it was never about anything but her own power.

 

[bigedole]

Worth reposting:

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

And again, just so you don't have an excuse for missing my point, my issue is not at all that she has become the Mad Queen, it's that the show did not remotely make this heel turn believable. As I said, it's the kind of writing you'd get from the people who think up the plot lines of WWE.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

And again, just so you don't have an excuse for missing my point, my issue is not at all that she has become the Mad Queen, it's that the show did not remotely make this heel turn believable. As I said, it's the kind of writing you'd get from the people who think up the plot lines of WWE.

Do you think it was believable for Grey Worm?

 

[Rentahamster]

so do we know what dany whispered to jorah before she burned him?

that's a bran worg moment if i ever saw it

Hail Hydra

 

[bigedole]

Do you think it was believable for Grey Worm?

I think he was just following his Queen's lead. If Dany calls for them to stand down when the bells are rung, he stands down.

 

[Punished Miku]

I think he was just following his Queen's lead. If Dany calls for them to stand down when the bells are rung, he stands down.

True. But that was more than just following orders. He made a decision that he wanted more death, and then they emphasize it pretty clearly with multiple close ups on him.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

The annoying thing is, the major issues with the plot could have been fixed so easily, in the surprise boat attack if they'd made it more of a hard fought battle, if the iron fleet had lost a load of ships and missed the dragons with most shots then finally get one lucky shot that kills the dragon. This would have made Danys attack on KL a bit more believable as the iron fleet would be reduced numbers and it wouldn't be such a huge nerf to the ballistas from the last battle. then at the point of surrender as Danny was considering letting them surrender if cersi had ordered a shot fired at the dragon , then that pushes her over the edge into a maniacal revenge rage as it clips her dragon. Also I really thought Jamie was going to kill Cersi as he knew he was the only one who could get close to her and that if he killed her it could save the people of KL.

Thats how I fell

I don't have a problem with where the story has ended, but how.

You can still get to the end of the long night and Arya killing the Night King without making the Army of the Living look completely stupid. In that room you had a bunch of smart military people.

You can still have her lose a dragon (simple fan edit fixed most of the issues smh)

You can have Jamie go back to Kings Landing. But only 2 lines of dialogue explaining his motivations felt incredibly rushed.

And you can also have Dany go dragon Rage. But the pacing of why felt rushed and incomplete.

 

[PrCat88]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

And again, just so you don't have an excuse for missing my point, my issue is not at all that she has become the Mad Queen, it's that the show did not remotely make this heel turn believable. As I said, it's the kind of writing you'd get from the people who think up the plot lines of WWE.

Those are examples of a lack of mercy, cruelty and ruthlessness even in cases where she went above that which she was advised otherwise.... which is more than you get from actual mass murderers in real life before they commit their crimes. Why does she need an example of a innocent life being taken? Are school shooters known for taking one or two innocent lives prior to their kill spree?

 

[Luffytubby]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

And again, just so you don't have an excuse for missing my point, my issue is not at all that she has become the Mad Queen, it's that the show did not remotely make this heel turn believable. As I said, it's the kind of writing you'd get from the people who think up the plot lines of WWE.

But she spells it out. The people of Meereen rebelled against their masters. Why should she show mercy to the people of kings landing? You honestly didnt see that this logic had been her main talking point throughout.

When she said "I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood" that is what she is saying. In her mind, Cersei killed the people of kings landing by using them as shields. Cersei even says as much, and so does Daenerys. They both know that the people are logically and naturally cannon fodder. If you cannot comprehend that these statements said in many eariler seasons means that she is determined to take what is hers, no matter the cost, then that is your problem.



The odds are evened a lot more of Danny doesnt use her dragons. And when she did and everyone surrendored pathetically and easily, it didnt really make the cruel loss of her dragon and best friend dying go away.

Martin told the writers the major plot points, and you can have a problem with the pacing if you want, but this is still Martins idea. this fall was always going to happen. The liberator turned tyrant is a classic tale that Martin took from thousands of real world examples throughout history.


It was always there. It was always going to be like that when you are dealing with someone who was so over confident her her dragons thinking she could just Walsh in and take it.

 

[BlueAlpaca]

Don't forget that Cerseis plan was to let them all die against the White Walker. Half the unsullied army was decimated in that nightmarish battle. Just because they surrendered it doesn't mean the need for revenge goes away.

When the soviet soldiers entered nazi germany, something like 500,000-1,000,000 women and children were killed and raped. To the world, they were liberators, but there was very much a personal vendetta- a payback courtesy for the nazis had done in the east. And even to this day, nobody really have any tears for all these civilians whose only crime was that they lived under a tyrannical rule.

Daenerys brings up the same logic, pointing to the fact that the people of kings landing are co-accomplices to the crimes of Lannister rule. They benefit from the spoils, from the destruction of other lands and kingdoms. The people of meereen rebelled against their slave masters. If they can, then why cant the people of kings landing? Their savior has come and obviously they should sacrifice themselves. Tyrion tries to reason with her and points out that people are afraid, which does not phase her.
This sort of harsh logic is quite similar to someone like Stalin who famously talked about one death makes a murderer, a million, a statistic.

If you look at ancient rulers who had a long a prosperous and peaceful reign, more often than not you will find that it came after decimating their enemies. You kill every chance of rebellion. You leave your enemies so dismembered and broken that they will never forget the consequences of being against their queen.
And, the logic is here too- Kill 10,000s of people, to save millions down the line. That has been the logical fallout of so many dynasties and world powers. From the unification of china, to the sovereign might of the United States. One powerful dog keeps everyone else in line. We some people in the short term which is unfortunate, but in the long run there will be an age of stability.
Mercy can lead to more war. No, unification is the answer. Empire is the answer. And who is just the right person to do that despite nobody seeing it? Daenerys, thats who. And when you have dragons as your main form of diplomacy everything becomes charred barbecue.

I don't think Daenerys is the way she is because of inherited insanity. She is just entitled and empowered, and she is just making moves like everyone else. And like other cult of personality figures, she inspires loyalty and delusion. Don't we see this shit all the time even today? How many people love to ape castro despite all the shit he did? Its almost to perfect how quick people wanted to defend daenerys previous actions like she was not always a bloody tyrant. When the fuck did she do something that went against her own interest for the greater good?
When the fuck did she stop and think to herself that maybe being on the throne is not good? And when the perfect opportunity came for another rightful heir to be there, she wanted to keep it a secret, because it was never about anything but her own power.

- Danny wanted revenge for her failed soldiers and blames the Lannisters... That's a good point, too bad the writers kinda forgot about it. That would have helped her transition to the mad queen.

- Danny never points out that the people of kind's landing are accomplices to the Lannisters. She seemed offended that they never rebelled for her like the slaves, and like the first point the writers could have used this for her madness, this entitled narcissist blaming afraid and weak people for not submitting, but the writers didn't. Perhaps they could have showed the king'd landing people rallying to Cersei and seeing Danny as a foreign tyrant. That also would have helped but you know the writers just forgot about it.

- Brutal rulers can bring peace, that's a good theme and excuse for Danny's madness but again the writers screwed this up. Westeros would mostly be at peace if it wasn't for Danny.

- I don't see many people defending Danny's previous actions as if she was not a tyrant but rather a different type of tyrant, a brutal and narcissistic and delusional one but not a genocidal one. That difference is crucial, if the writers wanted to turn her into the mad queen they should have put in the work and did some proper fucking writing.

 

[bigedole]

True. But that was more than just following orders. He made a decision that he wanted more death, and then they emphasize it pretty clearly with multiple close ups on him.

And for what it's worth, I don't have an issue with him being bloodthirsty. His relationship with Missandei was well developed, you can't scissors with just one blade after all.

They needed to give Dany's descent into madness time to breathe. I totally buy it as a larger plot point, and I think it's a good one. It just needed more time to develop than a single episode.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

Daenerys: I will burn cities to the ground!

GoT fans: YASSSSSSQUEEEEEEEEN SLAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY

Daenerys: *Burns King's Landing*

GoT fans:

 

[Kadayi]

Ozzyman review

Team Dany won't like it

 

[bigedole]

Daenerys: I will burn cities to the ground!

GoT fans: YASSSSSSQUEEEEEEEEN SLAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY

Daenerys: *Burns King's Landing*

GoT fans:

Yes, season 2 episode 4, after being on the verge of death during her first time acting as a leader for some group of people and being rejected at the gates of a city, she threatens them with fire and brimstone and all that jazz. Is this really the evidence you want to use to say "See! Mad Queen was in her the whole time." We have the entire run of the show to see all the times she showed compassion and empathy for the downtrodden and the weak. The show never really undermined this view of her, and that's why people are so pissed off. She didn't show mercy to her enemies, ok, but I think more is needed to make the leap from liberating cities to slaughtering untold numbers of innocents.

I'm not going to keep arguing this, clearly we all have our opinions. If you watch this season and you feel like this was good writing and a well executed story, then I guess I'm glad you enjoyed it. This has not been the Game of Thrones that I fell in love with and I will likely be forever waiting to find out how this was really all meant to go down.

 

[Punished Miku]

And for what it's worth, I don't have an issue with him being bloodthirsty. His relationship with Missandei was well developed, you can't scissors with just one blade after all.

They needed to give Dany's descent into madness time to breathe. I totally buy it as a larger plot point, and I think it's a good one. It just needed more time to develop than a single episode.

She starts looking a bit demented after saving the north from the white walkers, and when no one gives a shit about her.

Grey Worm and Missande also have some subtle scenes where they find themselves hated by the common people of the north, or when they say they hate westeros and don't want to stay because they're more or less disgusted by it. I think there are at least a few subtle nods to it.

I would have loved more time, more episodes. But I think rewatching it will actually slightly help. Episode 5 retroactively makes Episode 4 better in that you get to see Cersei defiantly turn down their offer for peace, and you get to see that look on her face when she executes Missande.

And all the scenes with Jon are pretty important too, because she literally saw him as her one chance to build a kingdom off of love instead of fear.

 

[Rentahamster]

Relevant

This Reddit post is a good insight on why shoehorning the current show characters into a predetermind story outcome fucks everything up. The show story and characters have become a round peg, and the story beats that D&D have decided the show must hit are a square hole. The books and the show are two separate things, and trying to fit the show into a book ending as how GRRM envisions it is wonky at best because of how they've diverged over the years, and because of how little time they have left to resolve the story.

D&D would have been better off taking the characters in the show as they are, and then hiring some talented people to write a new conclusion that fits those characters.

Also relevant:

George R.R. Martin determined to finish new 'Thrones' book by 2016

Author teases twist that fans—and HBO's 'Game of Thrones'—will never see coming

ew.com

In one intriguing new wrinkle, Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist.

It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking.

But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved… it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already—on this particular character—made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.”

 

[JimiNutz]

And all the scenes with Jon are pretty important too, because she literally saw him as her one chance to build a kingdom off of love instead of fear.

Yep.
Another stupid move by Jon. If he'd just embraced his inner Targ and carried on fucking his hot Auntie then all would be fine. After he rejects her in her moment of need she says 'fear it is then', so basically Jon is entirely to blame

 

[Punished Miku]

Yep.
Another stupid move by Jon. If he'd just embraced his inner Targ and carried on fucking his hot Auntie then all would be fine. After he rejects her in her moment of need she says 'fear it is then', so basically Jon is entirely to blame

Yeah. It's much more like her brother than the mad king. Part of it is premeditated. She knows she is about to lose her claim to the throne. She is losing the love of the people. She is losing her army. She is motivated by bloodlust and revenge, but also she is making a choice to rule through fear.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yes, season 2 episode 4, after being on the verge of death during her first time acting as a leader for some group of people and being rejected at the gates of a city, she threatens them with fire and brimstone and all that jazz. Is this really the evidence you want to use to say "See! Mad Queen was in her the whole time." We have the entire run of the show to see all the times she showed compassion and empathy for the downtrodden and the weak. The show never really undermined this view of her, and that's why people are so pissed off. She didn't show mercy to her enemies, ok, but I think more is needed to make the leap from liberating cities to slaughtering untold numbers of innocents.

I'm not going to keep arguing this, clearly we all have our opinions. If you watch this season and you feel like this was good writing and a well executed story, then I guess I'm glad you enjoyed it. This has not been the Game of Thrones that I fell in love with and I will likely be forever waiting to find out how this was really all meant to go down.

She has showed clear signs of being a tyrannical absolutist driven by her God complex and her ambition of power the entire runtime of the show. The fact that she also had a compassionate side when she wasn't mad, doesn't change that. I mean, that's the point of her character, she tried to be good but she wasn't good at all when things weren't going her way, and in those times is when she showed her true colors. When she awakened the dragon.

And yes, I think this is good writing. D&D don't know how to write, but this is the GRRM plan, he planted all of this since the beginning and this is the final conclusion. And as I said before, Dany becoming the villain of the show is one of the most epic moments in the history of television.

 

[oagboghi2]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

And again, just so you don't have an excuse for missing my point, my issue is not at all that she has become the Mad Queen, it's that the show did not remotely make this heel turn believable. As I said, it's the kind of writing you'd get from the people who think up the plot lines of WWE.

Uhh... I don't know, how about the fact that she is the head of an invading army?

This idea that she "didn't hurt innocent people" is moronic. Her entire plan involved hurting innocent people. War always hurts innocent people. That's a major theme of the show. Vary's points that out multiple times. The small people are crushed by the machinations and scheming of those in power. The most noble thing you could do is to not want power, to turn away from the Iron throne. Not try to seize it at any cost

Why wouldn't she hurt innocent people? Because she is a "good guy"? Did Dany kill the right people while Cersei killed the wrong people, so Dany is good?

In the end it was all in pursuit of the same thing.

 

[Punished Miku]

Also I think back to S2 when Stannis was attacking King's Landing. They explicitly said that if they get in, everyone is getting raped and pillaged basically. Cersei goes into detail and explains it to Sansa, and Cersei almost kills herself. Just a thought. That's kind of been the case for every fight in the show except retaking Winterfell.

 

[Javthusiast]

Burned the Landing is the new jumped the shark.

 

[EviLore]

get rekt

Really well edited and showcases all the foreshadowing.

 

[PrCat88]

Burned the Landing is the new jumped the shark.

Doesn't roll off the tongue. Just go with "woke the dragon".

 

[Punished Miku]

Really well edited and showcases all the foreshadowing.

Almost all the foreshadowing. There's also the visions of a destroyed King's Landing and Red Keep. Almost makes me want to check and see if it could be ash instead of snow falling in those scenes. And Bran also has a flash of a vision in like S5 with a dragon shadow looming over King's Landing looking like something right out of episode 5.

Dany was even explicitly given visions showing that her path forward leads to King's Landing in ruins.

 

[Rentahamster]

Almost makes me want to check and see if it could be ash instead of snow falling in those scenes.

I checked. It's not ash, it's snow.

It could have been something literal like the aftermath of a White Walker attack, or more metaphorical like the aftermath of a Jon Snow attack. Now it's just...something.

 

[Rentahamster]

 

[AV]

I think Dany going off as a villain is one of the most epic moments in the history of television.

It was foreshadowed, but just not so much as to make it too obvious, so everybody and her dog can watch the show and love her character; I would name my baby Khalessi or Daenerys! The mother of dragons! She was a beloved and such an iconic character, she was even presented by some as the embodiment of feminism and a good representation of women in power, lots of little girls loved her and had her as their hero/role model, and that's why this twist is so fucking delicious.

Did you saw the Burlington Bar video? Look at their faces in despair, they have their jaws dropped for literally minutes and minutes, they are in shock, they feel a mix of denial, anger and sorrow; no other show has accomplished a reaction like this in it's audience ever. We are literally watching something magical and I'm enjoying every fucking minute of it.

Okay. I think it's one of the dullest. It's not that it was or wasn't obvious, everybody knew there was a chance it was going to happen. It was just one of the most boring ways they could've ended this show, same with the Night King, same with Cersei, same with so much of it - there's nothing clever going on at all. It just kind of... fizzles out.

Yes, I always see those bar videos thrown around everywhere, nuke the site from orbit. It's a TV show. One that was significantly better in seasons 1-4. Sorry, this season's been a limp towards the finish line for me and a hell of a lot of people who've seen far better TV. Glad you're enjoying it though.

 

[Jon Neu]

It was just one of the most boring ways they could've ended this show

I will not describe this as boring, not at all. But hey, everybody feels how they feel.

And yes, the series was far better seasons ago, when it followed the GRRM plot.

And that's why this is so awesome, because it's the endgame of the GRRM plot.

 

[888]

A mother who called her daughter 'Khaleesi' says she's 'in shock' after the 'Game of Thrones' character's big turning point

and here we go.

 

[Kadayi]

Yep, she definitely had it out for her enemies. Show me the time earlier in the show she did something that alluded to her willingness to slaughter countless rando women and children. Don't worry, I'll wait.

How about you read the last dozen or so pages instead? This shit has been done to death over about a dozen times already, yet here you are wandering in johnny come lately as if nothings been said.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

A mother who called her daughter 'Khaleesi' says she's 'in shock' after the 'Game of Thrones' character's big turning point

and here we go.

I am gonna name my kid Damage Inc

 

[Jon Neu]

A mother who called her daughter 'Khaleesi' says she's 'in shock' after the 'Game of Thrones' character's big turning point

and here we go.

Some moms are standing by their queen, though.

"I'm still behind her," Katherine Acosta, whose Khaleesi is one year old, told The Cut.

"Even after last night's episode, I'm still rooting for her. I don't think she did anything wrong. I think she did what she had to do.

"[...] After the episode, a lot of people kept tagging me on memes and being like, 'How do you feel that Khaleesi has that name now that Daenerys did all of that?' I'm like, I don't feel anything different. It's not like she did it just 'cause. If you watch the show, she had every right."

 

[Kadayi]

A mother who called her daughter 'Khaleesi' says she's 'in shock' after the 'Game of Thrones' character's big turning point

and here we go.

• While one said the name now felt "bittersweet," another backed her queen to the hilt: "I'm still rooting for her. I don't think she did anything wrong."

There's a lesson there for #Teamdany right there. Don't get mad, double the fuck down and own that 'slay queen!!!'

 

[Rentahamster]

I checked. It's not ash, it's snow.

It could have been something literal like the aftermath of a White Walker attack, or more metaphorical like the aftermath of a Jon Snow attack. Now it's just...something.

Also:




Talking Thrones also did a video on how the punished throneroom scene has motifs of the White Walker theme in the music. So much for that foreshadowing.

 

[888]

I am gonna name my kid Damage Inc

You should, its a good name. You should also Tattoo my Avatar on the kid too.

Some moms are standing by their queen, though.

"I'm still behind her," Katherine Acosta, whose Khaleesi is one year old, told The Cut.

"Even after last night's episode, I'm still rooting for her. I don't think she did anything wrong. I think she did what she had to do.

"[...] After the episode, a lot of people kept tagging me on memes and being like, 'How do you feel that Khaleesi has that name now that Daenerys did all of that?' I'm like, I don't feel anything different. It's not like she did it just 'cause. If you watch the show, she had every right."

I laughed reading that. Totally every right to toast all the kids in Kings Landing.

 

[Jon Neu]

Also:




Talking Thrones also did a video on how the punished throneroom scene has motifs of the White Walker theme in the music. So much for that foreshadowing.

The visions she had on the house of the undying were clearly symbolic in nature.

 

[Rentahamster]

The visions she had on the house of the undying were clearly symbolic in nature.

Clearly symbolically icy.

 

[Javthusiast]

 

[EviLore]

Btw, this thread has been A+ to read and participate in across all 50 pages so far, with a great blend of thoughtful posts, debate, and memes. Cheers, everyone.

 

[Rentahamster]

 

[ruvikx]

Don't forget that Cerseis plan was to let them all die against the White Walker. Half the unsullied army was decimated in that nightmarish battle. Just because they surrendered it doesn't mean the need for revenge goes away.

When the soviet soldiers entered nazi germany, something like 500,000-1,000,000 women and children were killed and raped. To the world, they were liberators, but there was very much a personal vendetta- a payback courtesy for the nazis had done in the east. And even to this day, nobody really have any tears for all these civilians whose only crime was that they lived under a tyrannical rule.

This is way off-topic, but the Wehrmacht & SS actually had strict anti-rape laws in the German army. Anyone caught raping a civilian was executed. That's a fact. The Soviets meanwhile (especially the 1st Belorussian Front) behaved like total savages & actually gave credence to German state news reports about red terror. It was sick stuff. General Patton wrote about some of these somewhat untold aspects in his diary the immediate weeks after the war.

If we're going with WW2 parallels, what Daenerys did in GoT was actually worse than any of the belligerents involved in the military campaigns of the second world war (whether firebombing or nukes), i.e. Kings Landing had already surrendered. They waved the white flag yet she massacred a large section of the city anyway, i.e. aiming for women & children in the streets. This was also Tyrion's & Jon Snow's combined failure. I enjoyed this article by David French in the national review, i.e. a matter-of-fact analysis of Daenerys' intentions & behaviour without any of the political & ideologically charged bias which pollutes most mainstream sites these days: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/game-of-thrones-no-justice-only-genocide/

And what about Jon? At a fateful moment, the hero was a pawn. He was completely helpless as Drogon burned innocent people to ash. He was helpless to stop the bloodlust of his own men. He had empowered Daenerys, and she became a monster. Jon may have another heroic stand before the series ends, but the ruins of King’s Landing stand as a monument to his failure. The best man in Westeros could not stop his queen’s genocide.​

In the final episode, someone (whether Arya or Jon) needs to end this mad tyranny of Iron Throne dictators, or else Westeros will be plunged into darkness, basically. What happened on Sunday was the failure of all the characters on screen to recognize Daenerys was a serious threat from minute one because of her unilateral power & the fact she was a ticking time bomb waiting to explode.

 

[Jon Neu]

 

[Rentahamster]

As interesting as it was to see The Mountain disobey orders and smush Qyburn's head, I thought it would have been cool if we had instead had a scene where the royal court is huddling in a protected area with the Kingsguard, akin to the crypt scene in episode 3. They think they're safe, but then the NK casts resurrect and slowly zombie Gregor's eyes turn blue in the dark, and he then starts killing everyone.

 

[prag16]

I see a lot of thick people not realizing what Danny was going to become. Wether you guys like it or not this is what GRRM has in mind for his story. I reckon he will write it a lot better than D&D though

That's the key. RR will do it better (if he ever gets around to it). It won't be the rushed bs we got on the show.

 

[Rentahamster]

I see a lot of thick people not realizing what Danny was going to become. Wether you guys like it or not this is what GRRM has in mind for his story. I reckon he will write it a lot better than D&D though

The point isn't that her actions are impossible. There are hints laid out in both the books and the show that can be interpreted as such. The problem is that show Dany's character is not properly developed to the point of breaking, so her turn to destruction is forced and much too hasty.

It is the difference between writing as the characters would act to advance the plot, or forcing your characters to do stuff because you've already determined that's where the story will go.

When GRRM writes Danny's heel turn, it'll be much more believable and not as insulting to the reader's intelligence.

 

[Geki-D]

As interesting as it was to see The Mountain disobey orders and smush Qyburn's head, I thought it would have been cool if we had instead had a scene where the royal court is huddling in a protected area with the Kingsguard, akin to the crypt scene in episode 3. They think they're safe, but then the NK casts resurrect and slowly zombie Gregor's eyes turn blue in the dark, and he then starts killing everyone.

It's pretty sad to see that The Mountain is actually a way more superior undead than anything the NK could muster and he's even more impressive than even the White Walkers themselves. He would have let Arya stab him 20 times in the chest then crushed her air pipe. It's baffling Qyburn didn't make any more of these uber soldiers and even more so that Cersei didn't ask for an army of them seeing how effective The Mountain was. I know I'd have asked for an army.

 

[farmerboy]

Thats how I fell

I don't have a problem with where the story has ended, but how.

You can still get to the end of the long night and Arya killing the Night King without making the Army of the Living look completely stupid. In that room you had a bunch of smart military people.

You can still have her lose a dragon (simple fan edit fixed most of the issues smh)

You can have Jamie go back to Kings Landing. But only 2 lines of dialogue explaining his motivations felt incredibly rushed.

And you can also have Dany go dragon Rage. But the pacing of why felt rushed and incomplete.

Basically this. Now it seems that this season may have benefited from another ep or 2 or maybe some better editing or longer episodes.

Some aspects have definitely felt rushed.

No problem with Dany though. She just snapped. Happens all the time in the real world, not sure why its such a stretch to believe this.

My biggest gripe is how the white walkers were handled. To see them come and go in one episode seemed like such a waste.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Just saw this as the top comment on the TYT's episode review:

Jamie is now a "Fumbled Character", it's true, But the 'Dunce Crown' in this show of 'Characters' goes by default to Danny 'The Dick' Targaryen: She ALWAYS did what she did, no matter how questionable, for the PEOPLE, the Downtrodden, the Vulnerable: the Men, Woman & Children caught beneath the ever-spinning 'Wheel' being Crushed by it's proverbial Oppression.

That was her character arch for 7+ seasons.

Now, because she has lost some people who were close (MeSundae, Jorah, Vyserion etc.) ~&~ been "Betrayed" (if you can call it that) by Jon / Sansa, Varyes & her little Kitchen Wench, she suddenly has a moment of "Clarity" and embraces the very thing that she has fought, struggled & suffered to bring about an end to: TYRANNY.

But WHY? She's lost people close to her before (Kal Drogo, her Dothraki Handmaiden etc.) and she hasn't strayed from the path of ultimately being Righteous & Moral. She's been betrayed before, i.e. Jorah, Varyes, King Robert, The Witch (who turned Drogo into a Cabbage) and she has NOT ONCE been shown entertaining thoughts of turning on a dime & slaughtering innocents to get what she wants (The Iron Throne)

But now that the battle is Won: The Golden Co. is BBQ, the Scorpions are tinder & the entire remaining force of Lanister soldiers have, to a man, thrown down their arms: instead of JUST burning the 'Red Keep' or letting her Thousands of remaining soldiers storm the Keep & bring out Cerci as her prisoner(so she can end her tyrannic rule in grand spectacle w/ the whole city watching, that would be smart).......she proceeds to instead start NAPALMING the city streets & CITIZENS, as if she was "Cutting The Grass" (a Favorite colloquial saying of the IDF**)

Regardless of whether this was George R. R. Martin's intention for this character all along, there has been virtually No Indications given throughout the Seasons that Daneryes would casually burn thousands of innocents alive, for seemingly little to no advantage whatsoever (i.e. The Battle Was Already Won!) So from a Story telling perspective, this makes Absolutely NO SENSE. Thus, it is an intellectual Dumpster Fire of an episode, regardless of Spectacle, CGI or Cinematography. All these things fall Flat if you don't have a STRONG STORY LINE AT THE CORE. And Season 8, and thus the entire endeavor of 'Game Of Thrones' by association, is now but a ROTTEN APPLE.
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I don't necessarily agree with everything here but I do think this raises some fair points

 

[Grinchy]

lol even the actors can't pretend they're happy with this season



lol @ 35s in