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[Scrawnton]

I maybe was under the wrong impression then, because MS doing Gamepass looked exactly like they're thinking long term.
Eventually, two decades from now maybe, Cloud gaming will become the norm and Gamepass is effectively allowed to bleed money till that time when it will be the best cloud infrastructure with the greatest library.

Phil himself said their greatest failure was capitalizing on Xbox One when digital library was being made. Now they pivot into correcting that problem so hard because that's the only long term plan to success they see. They cannot compete traditionally with Sony/Nintendo.

Not sure what the fuck you're smoking but Xbox is not thinking long term at all when yearly they're canceling games, laying off people, and shit canning entire studios.

I was all about Xbox off and on with the OG and 360 but then I went all in with Xbox One and XSX. At this point I'm fairly confident that Xbox is simply a toy for Phil Spencer and co to fiddle with quarterly/yearly to maximize their own corporate bonuses at the cost of the brand and developers they gobble up.

 

[Gaol]

This guy isn't saying anything controversial. Ask music artists what they think of the rewards from streaming. They can at least make cash from live shows.

Gamepass - with new releases - has always been a flawed model. Gaming is eclectic and has a very high cost of delivery. Some people will want to pay £70 for a new final fantasy, others for a new CoD - and a high proportion aren't interested in the other. Therefore, putting various high budget new releases into a sub model has limited attraction for any particular consumer. And you can't just pump out dozens of these games, your sub revenue is never big enough.

Fair to say Gamepass has been one major factor in Xbox's hardware demise.

 

[Bernardougf]

I can imagine Sony are hysterical after their little GAAS implosion and with COD on Gamepass.

Sure sounds that way.

Maybe they're in deeper shit than people realize.

If Gamepass goes, Xbox goes, Windows goes as SteamOS will become the main OS for gaming, Microsoft wouldn't allow this to happen. So who's driving this narrative? Valve? No way.

Sony seems to be having an extreme honesty crisis internally, maybe this is all just a coordinated projection of that internal corruption.

 

[DragonNCM]

At this day and age, anyone who still believes this business model is healthly... is a public idiot

what you talking about man ???
This business model is healthy for ME !!!

 

[zedinen]

If Jimbo and Phil switched teams, PlayStation would be dead and buried and Sony Group on brink of collapse.


"Game Pass model would not make financial sense. PlayStation about big blockbuster games that cost a lot to make (Sep 17, 2020)"

"Sony's games 'could suffer' by adding them to PlayStation Plus on day one (Mar 29, 2022)"

"Game subscriptions won't hit Spotify or Netflix levels. The medium of gaming is so very different to music and to linear entertainment, that I don't think we'll see it go to the levels that we see with Spotify and Netflix (Mar 29, 2022)"

"We've sold more PS5's in two years than they have gathered subscribers and they've been doing that for 6-7 years (Dec 26, 2022)"

"Publishers Don't Like Xbox Game Pass (Jun 27, 2023)"

 

[A.Romero]

Yes.
They are paid, sure, but a pittance compared to what normal purchases would be - IF the game would be at least somewhat successful.

Which is why some games exist only due to the subscription model.
Eg Josh Sawyer said Pentiment would never have been made if it was not for game pass.

While this might sound positive, the truth is:
If a game cannot sustain itself on purchases, it shouldn't have been made in the first place (or out of someone's pocket who doesn't need return on investment), there was no target audience, clearly.

You can see how harmful subscription model has been to musicians:
They make practically zero from Spotify, etc. (unless they are Katy Perry-sized in listener amount)
Instead of making money with their music, they need to make money with live shows, merch, etc. All kinds of stuff that isn't really primarily what many musicians care about. (bonus: Why do you think ticket prices have skyrocketed?)

I don't want that kind of economy for video games.
I want game devs to be able to focus on making good video games, not having to do extra stuff just to finance development.
And I don't care that Little Timmy cannot afford to buy ten games per month and wants subscription.... only to then play much less than ten anyway. Get ahold of your finances, Timmy, you are messing shit up for the rest of us.

I don't know man. If this is what they are trying to say then rewarding devs is not the word that I would have used.

Do they have to sell to gamepass? It seems to me that that when they opt in is because they think it's the right move. They are not obligated.

If anything gamepass is only an extra venue for selling.

 

[Topher]

She didn't say anything. Same vague crap as Hines. What does "value developers" mean? Does it mean pay them? They get paid. Does it mean never get fired ever? No distribution model promises that; just ask Concord devs who might have been saved with a sub release.

Developers don't have any say in the financials of a large publisher. They set the price, the distribution model, the marketing, sales and discounts. I still don't know what they're even talking about, which tells me its vague on purpose. They're trying to shit on GP but can't say whats wrong with it. Pretty odd. A publisher setting pricing has nothing to do with valuing a developer. Hell MS just tried releasing Outer Worlds 2 for $80 and you saw how that went.

The more I see these developer whining sessions, the more I respect MS for trying something new for consumers and not caving to these people. Consumers really need to stop falling for this. Prices and monetization have skyrocketed and they still want to throw GP under the bus for barely trying to give consumers a good deal.

I imagine they have NDAs in place that prevent them from going into detail. I don't know what they are talking about either. I thought T TomasSala 's takes on Game Pass were more interesting. I'm just finding all this recent commentary from ex-Sony/Microsoft executives a bit fascinating.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Do they have to sell to gamepass? It seems to me that that when they opt in is because they think it's the right move. They are not obligated.

If anything gamepass is only an extra venue for selling.

You mean the same way music subscriptions started?
Which is now the de-facto way as it is more convenient for users and if you do not put your music on Spotify, it might as well not exist?
Which would be fine, really, if Spotify paid its artists well - it doesn't.
Subscription services are not profitable enough to pay a large body of content providers while simultaneously being cheap for subscribers. Why do you think Netflix, etc. axes everything if it doesn't immediately rock their viewing charts?
GP right now is supposedly profitable, but only by being very selective about games on there.

And thankfully, due to gamers largely not using it, or at least not exclusively, I don't think it will ever become a standard the same way Spotify, etc. did - after all, you can already get games VERY easily and often VERY cheap. Gamepass-style subscriptions are not more convenient, just cheaper for users.

Right now, gamepass can indeed be seen as an extra venue.
I just hope that never changes - as long as people are willing to actually pay developers for their work, and devs aren't de-facto forced to put their games there, things should be fine.

 

[Punished Miku]

I imagine they have NDAs in place that prevent them from going into detail. I don't know what they are talking about either. I thought T TomasSala 's takes on Game Pass were more interesting. I'm just finding all this recent commentary from ex-Sony/Microsoft executives a bit fascinating.

Yeah, that's true. Its just such odd language. Value developers doesn't mean anything. Are we talking profit? Jobs? I just don't get it.

 

[clappedcheeks]

I don't know man. If this is what they are trying to say then rewarding devs is not the word that I would have used.

Do they have to sell to gamepass? It seems to me that that when they opt in is because they think it's the right move. They are not obligated.

If anything gamepass is only an extra venue for selling.

Any developer or publisher owned by Microsoft has to be on gamepass as that's the promise MS made, all content is day 1 on their subscription service. I'm sure these developers love seeing their profit potential being pissed away. Yes I know it's good for the consumer so no need to point out the obvious but this thread is about what developers think of the effect of gamepass on potential revenue.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Ex employee is bitter?

getting rid of him was the dumbest mistake Xbox made. His track record wasn't perfect, but he would have done a FAR FAR FAR better job overseeing Xbox firt party than Phil, Booty or Sarah.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Eh. Xbox is 3rd party now, and their games will eventually be landing day 1 on PS5 and (when feasible) Switch 2. No Gamepass there.
PC gamers have also mostly stuck to retail purchases via Steam.

There's really no excuse

But I think he's also speaking in context of studios like Tango where HiFi Rush sales took a hit from GamePass, and then likely the retail revenue was used as a justification for the studio closure. Poor decision making from MS for that.

Did someone hack your account?

 

[simpatico]

Anybody have a version of this article for Electrical Engineers? I blame the Schneider Electric ubiquity. But we don't have an activist press to agitate the industry that feeds us. :/

 

[kevboard]

I'm sorry... but isn't this the entire game industry? remember when Vicarious Visions reinvigorated the Tony Hawk franchise and made maybe the best game in the series with THPS 1+2, only to get reduced to a support studio for Blizzard?
gamepass had nothing to do with that.

or how Ubisoft's only good game of 2024, PoP Lost Crown, got its sequel cancelled and dev team disbanded after selling a million copies... 1 million sold of a small budget 2D metroidvania wasn't good enough for Ubisoft... so a well received game was rewarded by the publisher with the cancellation of the sequel and the disbandment of the team behind it.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I'm sorry... but isn't this the entire game industry? remember when Vicarious Visions reinvigorated the Tony Hawk franchise and made maybe the best game in the series with THPS 1+2, only to get reduced to a support studio for Blizzard?
gamepass had nothing to do with that.

or how Ubisoft's only good game of 2024, PoP Lost Crown, got its sequel cancelled and dev team disbanded after selling a million copies... 1 million sold of a small budget 2D metroidvania wasn't good enough for Ubisoft... so a well received game was rewarded by the publisher with the cancellation of the sequel and the disbandment of the team behind it.

Nobody said it was, but when the largest 3rd party publisher in the world is putting all their games on Gamepass a service that isn't growing it's a problem.

Doom the Dark Ages and Indiana Jones are legit great games that...by all accounts...haven't sold well. Is that Gamepass fault? Hard to say, but it certainly hasn't helped.

 

[kevboard]

Nobody said it was, but when the largest 3rd party publisher in the world is putting all their games on Gamepass a service that isn't growing it's a problem.

Doom the Dark Ages and Indiana Jones are legit great games that...by all accounts...haven't sold well. Is that Gamepass fault? Hard to say, but it certainly hasn't helped.

sure, but my point is that the industry at large doesn't value developers and developers are rarely rewarded for doing a good job.
you can make the best game ever, but the moment the sales aren't reaching the often unrealistic expectations of the publisher, you're gone.

and that's without even mentioning how most of the work on these games is done by contract workers, because that saves the publisher money, so a lot of the people responsible for a good game will be gone from the studio before the game even ships.

 

[A.Romero]

You mean the same way music subscriptions started?
Which is now the de-facto way as it is more convenient for users and if you do not put your music on Spotify, it might as well not exist?
Which would be fine, really, if Spotify paid its artists well - it doesn't.
Subscription services are not profitable enough to pay a large body of content providers while simultaneously being cheap for subscribers. Why do you think Netflix, etc. axes everything if it doesn't immediately rock their viewing charts?
GP right now is supposedly profitable, but only by being very selective about games on there.

And thankfully, due to gamers largely not using it, or at least not exclusively, I don't think it will ever become a standard the same way Spotify, etc. did - after all, you can already get games VERY easily and often VERY cheap. Gamepass-style subscriptions are not more convenient, just cheaper for users.

Right now, gamepass can indeed be seen as an extra venue.
I just hope that never changes - as long as people are willing to actually pay developers for their work, and devs aren't de-facto forced to put their games there, things should be fine.

But music is still being produced and more people can access it than ever.

The only thing that really got wrecked are the companies that used to be gatekeepers for artists.

 

[reinking]

So I will do this once and see if it goes well. I see my name pop up here regularly. I am tomas sala , the developer of the Falconeer and Bulwark. Ask me what you want about gamepass and I will try to answer.

up front:

Gamepass from the total revenue of the Falconeer was likely a quarter or so, substantial but not "existential".
Bulwark my game from 2024 has close to 1200 user reviews on steam (83%) and has never been on Gamepass and is surviving fine just on sales.

So that perhaps lets off some steam out of the "poor indie can't survive with out GP money".. cuz that hasn't ever been the case nor will it ever be. And it belies a rather naive perspective on how games make money in this industry, be it 5 years ago or last year.
The game got roughly three quarter of a million installs on gamepass, and yes that is a big number. But the total amount of keys and installs sold/ streamed or whatnot is several millions, so again it's a super , no doubts about it and it can make a good boost. But if it's the entire pie then you are in trouble as a dev or pub.

I will always be grateful for the support (Xbox also funded some of the development and gave me my first break as a solo). Gamepass is a nice different monetization within a very hit/sales driven market that is filled with a few giant monopolies (steam or even mobile). Within those giant platforms/storefronts GP is the smallest one and to be honest much to small to take credit for "devaluaing" games and way to young. Diversity of platforms/deals is great for developers big and small, cuz it means you aren't dependent on a single precarious relationship.

The "race to the bottom" argument that gets thrown around, I mean lets be honest the Appstore and Playstore already pissed over game quality and genuine passion for great experiences. Then the general supply of games went bigger and bigger, and older games remained viable too, and then fortnite and roblox happened, this caused steam and others to focus on sales and discounts as a way to get eyeballs on games. Which every dev and pub dove and is still diving into. That is the cause for the "race to the bottom" where games are no longer making enough to warrant big budget investments. A victim of its own success, gamepass is such a tiny ingredient in that soup as are other subscription services.

Now hines mention that it was magical for a time and yeh I agree much of my perspective on GP must be seen through those goggles as well. It is much harder to get onto Gamepass during this current industry contraction, perhaps its economics , perhaps its competition with the giant library of inhouse xbox studios titles. And that same competition is also expanding to sales on xbox for games, I mean even for bigger games , you are now competing against many other games, many of which are 1st party and then you are competing against gamepass. I haven't bought an xbox game in years and neither have a lot of you. But I am paying microsoft for GP and enjoying the service.

So I think it might be around for a while. Is Xbox a desirable platform for devs? I mean sure if they make a deal with you.. why not? As a store its kinda weird right now, I mean why buy a game when you can get one from Gamepass.

But all round, subscriptions aren't saving the industry,neither is cloud gaming it's just another outlet and all these massive companies are gonna shrink and contract and do what they do.
I'm just an indie solodev trying to keep my head above water and apparently some news outlets enjoy quoting me, (often out of context), so hey..
Well ask away and I will try to answer..

cheerio,
Tomas Sala

Thank you for posting your inside look. It helped me adjust my perspective a bit on the impact of Game Pass and the subscription model overall. I have never thought streaming or subs would replace sales because we have had game rentals around forever. However, I did believe it had a bigger impact on sales and on indie devs.

 

[adamsapple]

I still feel it's a great idea(Game Pass) but everyone/industry is against MS right now.

 

[hemo memo]

Then don't put your games there. Game Pass is great for me as a player though.

 

[violence]

They are not going to put World of Warcraft on gamepass for a reason.

 

[Ozriel]

Did someone hack your account?

…because I posted something I've said multiple times before?

Doom the Dark Ages and Indiana Jones are legit great games that...by all accounts...haven't sold well. Is that Gamepass fault? Hard to say, but it certainly hasn't helped.

Yes, it's GamePass fault these two games didn't sell very well on PS5 and Steam

 

[Ozriel]

They are not going to put World of Warcraft on gamepass for a reason.

No shit, Sherlock. They don't put DLC in GP. There's no scenario where they'd have WoW monthly subs rolled in the service without making a higher priced tier