#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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The best situation would be for the moderates to not just leave Gamergate, since that might be a repeat of the TheQuinnspiracy -> Gamergate thing, but to split up into multiple groups depending on their distinct interests. That also makes it a bit harder for Gamergate's proponents to turn the labels.

There is a certain irony in telling the people who joined #GG in protest, when others had redefined the word "gamer" to mean something offensive, that the hashtag they're using to protest against that... is now considered offensive?

If you want to get those people to leave '#gamergate', then maybe a start would be to give them back the 'gamer' term?
 
They don't? Robin Arnott isn't female. The RPS guy who covered Zoe's game isn't female.

If you mean 'controversies not involving women' I brought up the Phil Fish shitstorm and DmC and those didn't involve any specific women. If you want I can rant about my issues with indie game coverage in general.

Ok, so you're not a Gamergates, but all the ethical issues you have are the exact ones they have and nothing else like Youtuber ethics or paid AAA promotion on IGN and Game Informer?
 
I think it's pretty easy to work out why the same talking points keep coming up over and over.
Because its literally the only dirt they have on a few vocal feminists they want driven out of video games and so, in between looking for more innocuous tweets or articles written years ago, they'll bring it up over and over again in order to try and force a relevance onto it that it only ever had until it was addressed by the people involved? And the people involved have to address the same thing over and over again ad nauseum until they either ignore those bringing it up (thus causing cries of censorship) or they get angry and call the person bringing it up names (thus causing cries of harassment). Then those same people who were constantly bringing it up use the tweets that they forced out of the people involved out of context as more sticks to beat other people with?


Is that why?
 
The articles (there are at least two that I remember, fairly lengthy pieces) were on the front page, so I'm guessing people who read Kotaku regularly all read it. I almost bought the fucking games until I researched them a little more, saw that the writing Hernandez had praised didn't seem particularly good (and even noticed several grammatical errors), and ended up deciding against it. But I almost pulled the trigger and bought the fucking things, which is one of the reasons I'm outraged about it.

Obviously I have no clue what goes on behind the scenes at editorial in Kotaku, but I think something like that is a firable offense (full disclosure: I have a bachelor's degree in journalism, though I did my master's in another field).

If you're using "I almost bought a disappointing thing" as your measure of harm, reviews that gave Battlefield 4 high scores without playing it under the same conditions as normal consumers are about a hundred times more harmful than a $10 indie VN. (Don't get me wrong, I think that Hernandez should have disclosed everything.)
 
I'm still not sure why RPS is in the crosshairs. Every single gamergate boycott image I have seen calls out RPS specifically, including all the ones boycotting other sites.

They have a clear mission statement which says they will be talking about things like women in games. What's the problem here?
 
First and foremost I am going to be honest and say I am very amoral on my outlook when dealing with people and politics; I generally look for a positive net-gain over a certain length of time and disregard human emotion since it doesn't enter the equation for me.

You can't remove emotions from this.

Second, the potential backlash that USU might receive for bending the rules for one speaker would be quite huge and doesn't pay off in the long run.

You may disagree with the law but the people in Utah do not. Again this is in entirely different argument not really meant for this thread.

They already bend it. Politicians can show up and nobody gets to bring a gun near public officials.

You're also forgetting that under this law, a female developer targeted by the #gamergate hate group living on campus wouldn't be able to stop someone from waltzing right up to her and killing her in broad daylight on the USU campus due to this stupid law. Going "well, shit, the law is on the books" and being unwilling to discuss that you know, the law is possibly broken is ignoring the fact that actual human beings and not political points are at stake here.
 
How familiar are you with the professional world? Do you know stuff like networking? Are you aware of how important dissemination and raising awareness by socializing with other people is?

Because networking and going to events and socializing with other people is really, really, really important for the success of your indie game, especially when you can't afford high-profile marketing.

To make this more succulent: just try to imagine business without communication.
 
If you're using "I almost bought a disappointing thing" as your measure of harm, reviews that gave Battlefield 4 high scores without playing it under the same conditions as normal consumers are about a hundred times more harmful than a $10 indie VN.

Were those just shoddy reviews (which is another issue altogether), or were the reviewers dating the developers? Because if they were, then yeah, it's a total breach of ethics. If they weren't, you're just conflating two separate issues and trying to obfuscate what I'm saying.
 
That is exactly why I argue against this kind of favoritism. Yes I do network, I am a professional software developer by trade and have been doing it for years. I'm not stranger to the "real world" where people who know each other trade favors. This is exactly the kind of crap I *don't* want to see in the game development field. I am an indie, but I am also a consumer of video games.

How would your ideal gaming journalism world work? Is every single game covered by all websites? Otherwise, what decides which games get coverage and which ones don't? It can't be "the best ones", because a game's quality is highly subjective; that's the "favoritism" you're decrying.
 
That's...wow. You have no understanding of ethics in journalism at all, huh?

Pimping your girlfriend's game to unsuspecting readers is absolutely harmful to the gamers who read the articles.

I have a bachelor's in journalism, actually. So yeah, I do understand. Lime either doesn't...or more likely, doesn't care.

Or I think using the word "harmful" and doubting why a person still is employed because she wrote an article on a game whose creator she knew is pretty disproportionate.

Yes, it should have been disclosed and it was corrected. Calling it harmful and wishing her to lose a job over it is a tad too much.
 
That's the thing though. How big of a deal it is depends entirely on whether you think it's ok for the media to dictate what content succeeds and what content doesn't.

As an indie myself, I am absolutely terrified of the idea that because I'm not best friends with X or Y media person like some of the other indies, my work will be overlooked or perhaps even deliberately hidden away in favor of someone else's.

The Hernandez thing is exactly the kind of situation I mean. Regardless of whether the game is free or not, people talking about you, knowing your name, your games, etc, is EXTREMELY valuable to an indie. Those mentions can often translate into sales, connections, and indeed, very tangible benefits down the line.

So is it a big deal? Like I said, it depends. Do you want to hear about the games you may enjoy, or about the games the developers the media is friends with wants to shove down your throat?


In the case of small indie projects/teams discoverability and exposure it's their life or death you're right. And I tacitly agree to accept an implicit bias when I follow a writer opinion on a specific title or team. I don't have the time to make the filtering process of what merits my attention or not considering the amount of titles releasing every day on every gaming platform. It's impossible for me. There will always be bias in this process. The writter knows the developer, knows and loved their previous works, they're friends, ex-lovers, former work colleagues. When there is an important point of conflict (family ties, significant personal relationships) there should be a disclosure. And Patricia Hernandez and Kotaku failed in this case. They didn't shove it down out throats though. Making Patricia Hernandez and Christina Love relationship and Kotaku covering her games as the epitome of video games corruption distracts from the true corruption. It's negligible. Not ethically negligible, but relatively negligible if you don't acknowledge bigger players with bigger power and financial stakes that really constitute important, critical corruption.
 
There is a certain irony in telling the people who joined #GG in protest, when others had redefined the word "gamer" to mean something offensive, that the hashtag they're using to protest against that... is now considered offensive?

If you want to get those people to leave '#gamergate', then maybe a start would be to give them back the 'gamer' term?

The gamer term was never taken away, to be honest, but it's one of the issues Gamergate people (e.g. Boogie) have complained about. There's nothing to give back.

It's actually kind of ridiculous in a way. You have Gamergate people simultaneously saying "It doesn't matter that the most visible part of Gamergate is harrassment and hate, judge it by the content of the group!" Then when you get an article with a title they don't like, it's "It doesn't matter that the content of the article isn't upsetting at all, judge it from the title!"
 
What should RPS have disclosed?

Most outfits would just have someone who isn't friends with the developer do the piece methinks.

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I worked at the school paper I know we had a separate blurb in each issue / a page online where we posted the assumed aspects of a review. IE, for movie reviews, we would acknowledge that the tickets were given to us free by the studio or for a band we would advise that the tickets were given to us for free by the band. Just used to be a standard issue blurb. Do sites not have that?

Also, isn't the FCC finally doing something about YT's impending payola issues (thank freaking lord)?
 
Or I think using the word "harmful" and doubting why a person still is employed because she wrote an article on a game whose creator she knew is pretty disproportionate.

Yes, it should have been disclosed and it was corrected. Calling it harmful and wishing her to lose a job over it is a tad too much.

Whose creator she DATED. She blatantly asked people to buy the game, while not disclosing that the person who made it had been her girlfriend (or maybe still was, at the time).

It's absolutely unethical. And it's harmful to people who would otherwise (and maybe did) buy the product under false pretenses.

And it's just another in a long line of Hernandez fuck-ups, but she seems to be made of teflon.

Not very ethical to dismiss a detractor because you fail to be convincing.

Your criteria for what's acceptable are biased and don't hold up under scrutiny and your priorities are misplaced. How can you expect to be taken seriously?


You're saying absolutely nothing.
 
They don't? Robin Arnott isn't female. The RPS guy who covered Zoe's game isn't female.

If you mean 'controversies not involving women' I brought up the Phil Fish shitstorm and DmC and those didn't involve any specific women. If you want I can rant about my issues with indie game coverage in general.

Sorry, I thought Robin Arnott was female.
 
I still would like to see a link to this article. (unless it has been posted and I missed it)
http://kotaku.com/video-game-asks-players-to-bake-real-cakes-for-virtual-1183623826
Ok, so you're not a Gamergates, but all the ethical issues you have are the exact ones they have and nothing else like Youtuber ethics or paid AAA promotion on IGN and Game Informer?
I've already mentioned the coverage of DmC, I was pretty heavily involved with that shitstorm when it was making the rounds on /v/, Twitter etc.

From what I gather re: Youtube, Total Biscuit takes money for covering games but is upfront about it. I still think it contributes to a shitty environment for games but I think it's a lil better if the dude is open about it.
 
I'm still not sure why RPS is in the crosshairs. Every single gamergate boycott image I have seen calls out RPS specifically, including all the ones boycotting other sites.

They have a clear mission statement which says they will be talking about things like women in games. What's the problem here?

People don't like when "women" enter their spaces. We even see people here on GAF who blow a fuse and boycott RPS because the site decided to take a stand against the rampant sexism and misogyny in gaming culture, as evidenced in some of RPS' readership comments some time back.

basically
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Except those articles weren't about insulting gamers they were about telling developers that the "gamer" stereotype wasn't the only market they should be focusing on. It was a call for inclusiveness... Actually, that seems to be what Gamergate is more about than corruption... Or they think the media trying to encourage inclusiveness is corruption.

Then in my opinion they worded it poorly. It did seem like they were advocating for inclusiveness, but at the same time were bashing the people that identified with the term "gamer". She was hasty with it, it seems, and it ended up offending quite a few people. Even people not involved in Gamer Gate or opposed to it, like myself, found it odd. Did it make me hate her or something? No, it just made me feel weird when reading it, because it didn't make sense to me that someone could write something like that. Whether she likes it or not, her readers for the most part identify as gamers, and insulting the term and saying that it's dead is not the way to go at all. And because she was hasty and worded the whole thing oddly, people that were already overreacting to things and creating a shit storm overreacted to this and created a shit storm. Overall, I just think she should have looked it over a bit more, as the article seemed to come from an emotional place.

And personally, if I had written something like this, I probably would have held off on posting this until after Gamergate died down. Instead she posted it right in the middle of it, adding more kindling to the fire. Even if her language had been clearer, it still would have been taken as a huge affront to all the people that were already angry at things, and the fact that she's a woman probably made people even more up in arms.

Yeah, I'm unsure why the only issues people seem to care about involve tiny indie SJW developers sex lives, and not say everything mentioned here.

Because unfortunately that was never what Gamergate was really about. They keep saying it is about ethics in game journalism, but most of the movement just seems to be set on destroying any potential Quinn and Sarkeesian have of living a normal, fear free life. I'd love if we took ethics in game journalism more seriously, we definitely should, but Gamergate isn't about that. I mean, I don't even really care for either Quinn or Sarkeesian. The whole mess with Quinn heavily misinterpreting the game jam TFYC started earlier this year (I believe this whole thing started around March or April?) made me dislike her, but overall I think all she just needed to do was understand how she was wrong and apologize. Any hope of that is dead now that Gamergate has happened and they've decided to use it as another reason for hating her. As for Sarkeesian I'm just not a fan of her style of presenting her point, she seems too one sided for me. Overall, though, that's just a stylistic thing so I just don't read what she does or watch her videos. Again, though, people decided to use that as a reason to hate her and decide to destroy her life. I'm fascinated in how someone can jump to the conclusions that because you don't like someone's writing or opinions they must die, I'd really like to see some mob/social psychologist analyze Gamergate, it'd probably be a pretty good read.

Ah yes, the first post after my Vyvanse starts taking effect, always unnecessarily long.
 
Whose creator she DATED. She blatantly asked people to buy the game, while not disclosing that the person who made it had been her girlfriend (or maybe still was, at the time).

It's absolutely unethical. And it's harmful to people who would otherwise (and maybe did) buy the product under false pretenses.

And it's just another in a long line of Hernandez fuck-ups, but she seems to be made of teflon.




You're saying absolutely nothing.

Enjoy that bachelors
 
So yes, I know how important all that is, and my point is that the fact that it is important, rather than "is your game any good", is exactly what is wrong with this whole situation and why I am vehemently against people wanting to sweep things under the rug and accepting the status quo.

And how exactly you suggest game journalists are supposed to learn about video games? By reading every single review they are submitted?

Networking may not be fair, or optimal, but it is super efficient (because it is essentially a distributed system for people to get the content they want), and there is no actual alternative way to discover video games.

If you followed the industry for more than a year you should clearly know that how good a game is has little to no bearing on the public reception.
It's way less important than everything surrounding marketing.
Seriously you think companies pay marketers for what exactly?
And garbage that made bank because someone with an agenda pushed it?
You have any example?

To be fair, usually, if the game is bad, people will not buy it regardless of how much coverage it has. Just think about all those "Let's Play bait" games.
 
Yeah I really don't get that either.
There's a massive issue with big corp basically buying their way into positive press and here we are discussing indie games that have been "wrongly" promoted because the media person was friend with the game maker.
Let's totally not talk about how the hype campaign of nearly all blockbuster games is so rotten you can't read a preview without massive amount of salt that they're not misleading you into preordering.



If you followed the industry for more than a year you should clearly know that how good a game is has little to no bearing on the public reception.
It's way less important than everything surrounding marketing.
Seriously you think companies pay marketers for what exactly?
And garbage that made bank because someone with an agenda pushed it?
You have any example?

Didn't I say exactly that, that how good your game is doesn't have bearing on public reception, and I believe that is very wrong?

What are you arguing about exactly? I don't need to show my credentials like I'm on trial. I don't care if you're ok with the status quo. That's your own thing to deal with. If you're ok with good games getting buried by crappy ones that's not my problem. Good for you I guess? Enjoy that? I'm not ok with it, and I will voice it.
 
Because its literally the only dirt they have on a few vocal feminists they want driven out of video games and so, in between looking for more innocuous tweets or articles written years ago, they'll bring it up over and over again in order to try and force a relevance onto it that it only ever had until it was addressed by the people involved? And the people involved have to address the same thing over and over again ad nauseum until they either ignore those bringing it up (thus causing cries of xensorship) or they get angry and call the person bringing it up names (thus causing cries of harassment). Then those same people who were constantly bringing it up use the tweets that they forced out of the people involved out of context as more sticks to beat other people with?


Is that why?

Yuup, it's especially hilarious when they're excessively vauge about the supposedly awful things that whoever is the feminist target has done. They often seem to know their complaints are essentially innocuous, so they're relying on people not actually doing any doing any research and just believing them if they shout "[FEMINIST X] IS A REALLY REALLY BAD PERSON, YOU GUYS" enough times.

Whose creator she DATED. She blatantly asked people to buy the game, while not disclosing that the person who made it had been her girlfriend (or maybe still was, at the time).

It's absolutely unethical. And it's harmful to people who would otherwise (and maybe did) buy the product under false pretenses.

And it's just another in a long line of Hernandez fuck-ups, but she seems to be made of teflon.

What if they enjoyed the game tho
 

There's another lengthy one about Christine Love's game, about people who hacked it to get an achievement that was otherwise locked out. Looking for it now. It's another very positive article that tries to sell readers on the product.

edit: Actually, she wrote a whole bunch on it.

http://kotaku.com/5937012/how-women-could-easily-lose-all-their-rights-as-told-by-a-game

http://kotaku.com/the-steam-achievement-that-nobody-unlocked-1610073943

These articles should, at the very least, have been assigned to someone else who wasn't romantically involved with the dev.
 
You can't remove emotions from this.



They already bend it. Politicians can show up and nobody gets to bring a gun near public officials.

You're also forgetting that under this law, a female developer targeted by the #gamergate hate group living on campus wouldn't be able to stop someone from waltzing right up to her and killing her in broad daylight on the USU campus due to this stupid law. Going "well, shit, the law is on the books" and being unwilling to discuss that you know, the law is possibly broken is ignoring the fact that actual human beings and not political points are at stake here.

What are you even talking about? Utah allows Guns around public officials, its literally one of the few states that allows you to bring a gun to a lawmaker's office.

Again I do not care about the emotional aspects of this and never will. I care about the statistical value and how it affects voting numbers. The law isn't broken because you disagree with it, the majority of the people in Utah favor said law.
 
I don't know if this is still the case, but when I worked at the school paper I know we had a separate blurb in each issue / a page online where we posted the assumed aspects of a review. IE, for movie reviews, we would acknowledge that the tickets were given to us free by the studio or for a band we would advise that the tickets were given to us for free by the band. Just used to be a standard issue blurb. Do sites not have that?

The context hardly matched up, this is not a review: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/depression-quest/
 
You studying journalism doesn't make you automatically right.

I also studied journalism and totally disagree with you.

Then I fear for the profession if you don't think people shouldn't write articles about their significant others without giving at least full disclosure.

That's a pretty dick-ish thing to say.

The guy has made three posts trolling me while contributing absolutely zero. I am done interacting with him until he actually brings something to the table.
 
There's another lengthy one about Christine Love's game, about people who hacked it to get an achievement that was otherwise locked out. Looking for it now. It's another very positive article that tries to sell readers on the product.

http://kotaku.com/the-steam-achievement-that-nobody-unlocked-1610073943

These articles should, at the very least, have been assigned to someone else who wasn't romantically involved with the dev.

That was written after their relationship, so I don't think there's anything wrong there.
 
Imagine if they applied the same rhetoric to game reviews of actual consumer products.

IGN would have to put an editorial note on every review of a WayForward game. "Hey, just so you guys know, the creative director of this company used to be an editor for us, we are all good friends that still hang out!"

Destructoid would have to do the same for Gearbox. "This game, even if not reviewed so positively, was written by one of our ex-staff! Please keep this in mind!"

Think if this was applied to film reviews.

"Even though we gave this film a positive review, it is worth knowing that our writer was flown to LA for the red-carpet premiere as to meet release-date review deadlines"

Or Music.

"Ed note: An engineering assistant once had a brief relationship with the writer of this review."

That would be kind of ideal, yes. Of course, not worded so patronizingly, but if something outside the work could colour the reviewers opinion, I think it'd be best to disclose that. Even something in the article saying something like "I've been a fan of this for a long time" is nice, it doesn't have to be a big disclaimer in huge read lettering.
 
In the case of small indie projects/teams discoverability and exposure it's their life or death you're right. And I tacitly agree to accept an implicit bias when I follow a writer opinion on a specific title or team. I don't have the time to make the filtering process of what merits my attention or not considering the amount of titles releasing every day on every gaming platform. It's impossible for me. There will always be bias in this process. The writter knows the developer, knows and loved their previous works, they're friends, ex-lovers, former work colleagues. When there is an important point of conflict (family ties, significant personal relationships) there should be a disclosure. And Patricia Hernandez and Kotaku failed in this case. They didn't shove it down out throats though. Making Patricia Hernandez and Christina Love relationship and Kotaku covering her games as the epitome of video games corruption distracts from the true corruption. It's negligible. Not ethically negligible, but relatively negligible if you don't acknowledge bigger players with bigger power and financial stakes that really constitute important, critical corruption.

I'm not saying that particular is a huge deal or anything. I'm saying it's a recent example of it, just like WB paying youtubers for coverage, or MS telling developers to cap their games at certain resolutions on all platforms to look good.

As a consumer, I find those things all deplorable and try to speak up against them. I have no particular axe to grind with any particular members of the media. It would be unhealthy and pointless for me to do so. I don't actively campaign against anyone, I just try to do what I can in my own way, to shape the gamedev world into what I'd like.

That usually reflects in how I run my game and my company, since I can't say I'm the most influential person out there. But hey, I'll consider it a success if people end up buying my game eventually and feel like they got a bargain and feel completely satisfied and it meets the expectations I set. Even if that doesn't translate into billions of dollars. My bar for success is at least recouping the money I invested into it, so my wife will let me make another one :-P
 
I think we all (or at least most of us) agree that Hernandez should have disclosed the relationship. Kotaku has acknowledged this as well on a go-forward basis while stopping short of firing her. Obviously, there is a conflict of interest there, and writers should be upfront about disclosing such conflicts. I would really like to encourage that we move on.
 
An older post but I missed it the first time. On gamergate, gaming journalism, and ethics.

https://plus.google.com/+DavidHillJr/posts/fT3tNRVWL3o

Hi. I make games. I write about games. I get paid to make games. I used to get paid to write about games. I walked away from paid writing about games, because it was a pretty shitty, corrupt, jaded process that really flew in the face of why I wanted to write about games.

A couple of days ago, I posted an email from the San Francisco Police Department verifying a police report placed by Anita Sarkeesian. Why? Because a muckraker accused her of lying, and drummed up a BUNCH of hate. His message had over six hundred reshares. His thread had dozens of people talking about how she needs to be imprisoned, how she needs to be shot, and how she's... you get the picture. So, I fact-checked. And I posted the results of that fact-checking. Did I get six hundred people recanting their threats, insults, and accusations? No. I got a couple dozen people threatening me, and a fuckton of people insulting me for DARING to fact-check a journalist. When, mind you, the Gamergate movement is supposedly about holding journalists accountable. Do you know how many messages came up to the effect of, "Oh. I shouldn't have jumped the gun and accused her without the facts?" None. None at all.

So understand why a lot of us say, "This group of people is toxic." It's because a large majority of what we're experiencing is people doing very toxic things. There are some reasonable voices. But from where we stand, they're a stark minority. The movement is about accountability and ethics in journalism, yet the ONLY reaction I got from fact-checking a journalist was hate, denial, threats, and insults. From where I stand, calling Gamergate toxic and hateful isn't a far stretch at all, because it appears to be doing toxic and hateful things.

So, corruption in journalism. Can I let you in on a secret?

On our side, a lot of journalists hate the nepotism, and most importantly, they hate the relationship the industry has with journalism. Because a while back ago, "games journalism" was essentially coopted as a marketing arm for certain AAA publishers. At that point, AAA publishers became gatekeepers for success in games journalism. It's awful, because we want to be talking critically. We want to be looking at games in different lights. We want to approach these works of art as works of art, and not just as the next success or flop. But that can't happen on any large scale, because of that corruption, because of the commercialism of it all.

The way a lot of the Gamergate stuff looks to us really looks like some strange bizarro world where the games industry works completely different than it really does.

The biggest targets of Gamergate have been people who are frankly powerless in the games industry. People like Zoe Quinn and Phil Fish, they are not gatekeepers. They are not able to enact any real, significant influence on the industry. Most independent game jams, awards, and exhibitions are small groups of people, trying to make names for themselves in their little ponds. That's how independent artists work in pretty much every creative field. They can't compete with the game industry, so they're trying to carve out their own little micro industry, where they do their own things and have a captive audience.

The people being targeted the most are small names, on the fringe of the industry. Even if these people all pat each other on the proverbial backs and promote each other into the ground with the corruption of a thousand watergates, their games will NEVER be as successful as even moderately popular indie games like Castle Crashers. We're talking about games that won't pay a single basic salary if successful. To these games, success doesn't look a lot different than failure.
 
That was written after their relationship, so I don't think there's anything wrong there.

They are still close friends, even after their romantic relationship ended, so yeah, there's plenty wrong there.

I'm not objecting to the fact that the article exists. If they felt the game was worth covering (and Kotaku is one of the few sites that's written such lengthy articles about the game - Polygon has a short blurb announcing the sequel to Analogue, Joystiq did the same, neither reviewed the game or did any follow-ups, etc.), they should have assigned it to another writer who didn't have that conflict of interest.
 
Then I fear for the profession if you don't think people shouldn't write articles about their significant others without giving at least full disclosure.

Did I say that? The disclosure has been added. I agree it should have been there in the first place, but if you think it's a huge scandal that deserves firing and a public shaming, I don't know what to tell you. This is about a free indie game, not international politics. Are you also furious Roger Ebert was friend with moviemakers?
 
They were still friends also seriously?

Man, if you don't like reviewers being friends with devs, you're really going to hate Giantbomb - they had a guy from Rockstar hosting the podcast, regular guests from favourite developers like Dave Lang and Dan Rykerts face is in LA Noire and Infamous Second Son because he wrote the previews for those games from Game Informer.

How do you feel about Gone Home?
 
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