Hawk The Slayer
Member
Depends on which game since there will always be more simple and more complex games.
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Games have become too complex
- Thread starter Gamer79
- Start date
Were they? They were less complex and more "unfriendly" I would say. This may not necessarily be true of all franchises but games in the past had much simpler gameplay mechanics, economies, stats to track/manipulate, etc, but the QoL options in them were dreadful. There was no real tutorials, button mapping, ingame manuals that you could revisit, hints, etc. It was mostly "here is the game, figure it out" but the actual gameplay mechanics/complexity were rather simple.
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GermanZepp
Member
I find fighting games (a genre that played until ps3) to be more complex. Don't really know if its real or a perception though. Played MK until 9. I really like guilty gear but never could grab it on time.
Right now I'm playing factorio demo on switch, I'm like 10 hours into the tutorial. Jaja fuking madness, I'm loving it.
Right now I'm playing factorio demo on switch, I'm like 10 hours into the tutorial. Jaja fuking madness, I'm loving it.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
Go play Planescape.
IAmRei
Member
kind of agree and disagree.
TLDR: yes, lot of games looks complex but they are not, and yet there are games looks simple but they are not.
Some of them are only looks like too complex, but not at all if you see through...
In these days,
often, I saw games which looks too complex, but they are only UI complexed or complex in paper, rather than complex in gameplay
for example, Wildlands, Far Cry, or basically UBI open worlds, it is not complex game, but the UI is so cluttered and got too much informative and the gameplay are simple gun blazing / melee fest, hacking through away with some tactic in between start mission to finish mission / raid.
other games such as TQ, Diablo, and Torchlight 2 are also in this part, they seem too complex, yet they are not much, there is not much strategy, only timing of cool down and the statistic vs statistic. they are still feels rewarding though. i feels like they are boring in concept, but very rewarding and very addictive for me.
Souls, MH, for example are the opposite, they are looks not too complex in game flow, even buttons are straight forward.
but take a dip in their mechanic, you will see one of the most complex mechanics, almost as close as fighting games.
there are also games that might looks simply, but the builds, the tricks & strategy, even programmed AI, are complex yet still looks casual and easy: Mario Kart 8D.
there are also games, with simple button yet still feels deep: older YS such as Oath of Felghana, Origins, and 6. the buttons are only jump, attack, magic, yet still feels satisfying, and the boss combat pattern are complex to be read of.
TLDR: yes, lot of games looks complex but they are not, and yet there are games looks simple but they are not.
Some of them are only looks like too complex, but not at all if you see through...
In these days,
often, I saw games which looks too complex, but they are only UI complexed or complex in paper, rather than complex in gameplay
for example, Wildlands, Far Cry, or basically UBI open worlds, it is not complex game, but the UI is so cluttered and got too much informative and the gameplay are simple gun blazing / melee fest, hacking through away with some tactic in between start mission to finish mission / raid.
other games such as TQ, Diablo, and Torchlight 2 are also in this part, they seem too complex, yet they are not much, there is not much strategy, only timing of cool down and the statistic vs statistic. they are still feels rewarding though. i feels like they are boring in concept, but very rewarding and very addictive for me.
Souls, MH, for example are the opposite, they are looks not too complex in game flow, even buttons are straight forward.
but take a dip in their mechanic, you will see one of the most complex mechanics, almost as close as fighting games.
there are also games that might looks simply, but the builds, the tricks & strategy, even programmed AI, are complex yet still looks casual and easy: Mario Kart 8D.
there are also games, with simple button yet still feels deep: older YS such as Oath of Felghana, Origins, and 6. the buttons are only jump, attack, magic, yet still feels satisfying, and the boss combat pattern are complex to be read of.
digdug2
Member
It's funny that you say this, because I had the exact sentiment about Baldur's Gate on PS5. It is not fun to play with a controller - at all, at least as far as I'm concerned. It feels like it was designed for M+K and controller layout was an afterthought.
I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. This point really hit home for me playing Horizon FW. The inordinately complex menus, having to "craft" ammo, etc. is just needless nonsense (I never played Horizon ZD and only played FW because it came with my PS5). I understand there are some people who may not have actual lives, professions, kids, spouses, etc. for whom that sort of thing is appealing, but for others simplicity is paramount. The sheer joy afforded by games like Super Mario Odyssey, Mario Wonder, and Mario Kart are where all the fun is for me, ditto for older games like WipEout and newer ones like Forza Horizon. I even like GT7, but sometime its menus and customization requirements are borderline unpleasant. I tolerated God of War 2018 and Ragnarok because they were both SO DAMNED GOOD (actually, 2 of my favorite games of all time), but some of the armor upgrades and "skill trees" are superfluous to me and could have easily been cut from the game. I actually HATED those parts of the God of War games. They felt tacked on just to check a box. I think the OP has a point, and it is possibly why so many new games have such abysmal sales. I think the mass market type of appeal lies in the simple joys so if any developers are reading this it would greatly behoove you to bring those BACK.
DoubleClutch
Member
I think the problem is a lot of games feel obligated to tack on RPG mechanics to make certain people feel like they’re progressing and earning something. Everything needs an upgrade system otherwise you will get eviscerated by media and the like. Your gameplay will get called shallow. People have lost sight of what’s good.
You end up adding unnecessary complexity that doesn’t really do anything for the gameplay.
Some people only play Call of Duty to earn skins. They use guns they don’t like, that suck, and suffer for hours just to collect a digital skin. Think about it. It wasn’t like this before.
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What you say makes sense, I agree also. Something has to change though.
Puscifer
Member
Frostpunk still likes to fuck my shit up at a moments notice
THAT DAMN BELL TOLL
March Climber
Member
No one here truly knows ‘complex’ until they spend hours reading pages upon pages of a game’s manual and tutorial for an overhyped JRPG, White Knight Chronicles.
One of the few games where it felt like I had just studied for a course exam just to know how to play.
One of the few games where it felt like I had just studied for a course exam just to know how to play.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
Fortunately there's a game for you, OP. It's called "Fap CEO".
Akuji
Member
PoE Shits on this game when it comes to complexity. The gauntlet is so difficult for people that is unplayable for normal players that have 1000hours and more into the game. Yet people go through without to much trouble for the most Part aside the high end Activties in the game.No one here truly knows ‘complex’ until they spend hours reading pages upon pages of a game’s manual and tutorial for an overhyped JRPG, White Knight Chronicles.
One of the few games where it felt like I had just studied for a course exam just to know how to play.
Games in General offer very simple games. Nintendo games come to mind. A shitload of games that are very easy to play but also offer the option to go deeper into the Systems. And quite a few games that are just insanely complex. Good examples were brought up.
Diablo 4 is one of the easier and certainly less complex games in its Genre. If you want less then d4, maybe horizon Lego? Or the minecraft game. They have a diablo like Version i think?
cireza
Member
The issue is not about being too complex, but being poorly designed and bloated on top of it. As soon as a game is straightforward with it's gameplay mechanics and explanations, even something like Brigandine feels easy to learn.
However when it is bloated with shit constantly taking you out of the path to learning, simply to build an artificial game length (pretty much every Atlus game) then the process of learning is severely affected. Which leads to developers dumbing down difficulty not because players are dumb, but because the developers themselves are failing at explaining their mechanics and having the player memorize them.
However when it is bloated with shit constantly taking you out of the path to learning, simply to build an artificial game length (pretty much every Atlus game) then the process of learning is severely affected. Which leads to developers dumbing down difficulty not because players are dumb, but because the developers themselves are failing at explaining their mechanics and having the player memorize them.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Complains about games being too complex
Wants to go back to a time of reading 100 pages to understand underlying game mechanics
What I would like to add is separate « remind me » mode when you didn’t play a game for a long time - it recaps the story so far and also gives you a quick tutorial of the mechanics.
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March Climber
Member
The thing about PoE is that at it’s core, when you start the game, it plays like an ARPG. You can at least basically play through the game as a newbie who doesn’t quite understand everything just yet, and that’s way before even learning what the gauntlet even is.
That isn’t how White Knight Chronicles works. White Knight Chronicles feels like one of those obscure Sega Genesis game where they might have done the following:
“Let’s make C jump and B attack.(already an issue for anyone who knows the Sega controller).”
“So now that we have that out of the way, how do we program the character attacking left or right?”
“Hmm…let’s make it so that you hold B, and then press A to attack left and C to attack right.”
“What about a jump attack right?”
“Hold B, Hold Z, and press C”
The entire time in this convo, neither of them are even thinking about the dpad. Not once. Instead they are simply branching from their original idea of the B and C buttons, into more nearby buttons that have the player do nonsensical patterns for a basic function.
Now imagine someone doing something similar with a Playstation 3 controller, and then imagine the game’s menu systems are also built similarly. That means you have no choice but to go through their lengthy manual and tutorial and remember everything you’ve learned, or you aren’t going to be doing anything right and will barely make it anywhere in the game.
Edit: It’s stuff like this that makes me glad people like AVGN exists and showed millions of people how ridiculous and bullshit a lot older games are, even up to the PS360 gen. People forgot man.
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cireza
Member
That's Streets of Rage/Golden Axe and it is fine. And A to call the cops
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xrnzaaas
Member
Diablo 4 isn't complicated or hard to play until you start choosing high difficulty settings and endgame content. You can pretty much choose active skills randomly and only care about their cooldowns, pick new gear based only on the up-down arrows and you'll be fine.
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StueyDuck
Member
I think the argument is less about complexity and more about them being poorly designed, there is an argument that some games ask too much for some players, but again I'll fall back to complexity can be great when designed properly.
A perfect example of good game design is death stranding, while it comes across as seemingly simple, when you play it you come to realise there is so much complexity going on behind the scenes and even with the controls of the game. But it's only as complex as the player is willing to get with the game.
midnightAI
Banned
Depends on how far back we are talking, I grew up with games that had a joystick and a single button (or if you were lucky two buttons)
They did make many games more difficult back then. But that's because the average game could be completed in less than 3 hours, many less than an hour but that's when lives were a thing and not save points
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Kenneth Haight
Gold Member
Complex but very simple at the same time
ClanOfNone
Member
lol, I remember hooking up my SNES and dad picks up the controller, “SIX buttons, these things are way too complicated nowadays.”
Still, I get the gist of what you’re saying op. I loved Master of Orion 1 and 2 back in the day, played the shit outta the first one in particular.
Feeling nostalgic for the days of old, I picked up Stellaris and promptly ran into the brick wall of the tutorial. So. Much. Information.
“Man, this is complicated, I’ll come back to it”
Alas, it sits in digital purgatory collecting dust as I haven’t made it back yet.
Still, I get the gist of what you’re saying op. I loved Master of Orion 1 and 2 back in the day, played the shit outta the first one in particular.
Feeling nostalgic for the days of old, I picked up Stellaris and promptly ran into the brick wall of the tutorial. So. Much. Information.
“Man, this is complicated, I’ll come back to it”
Alas, it sits in digital purgatory collecting dust as I haven’t made it back yet.
Trilobit
Member
Jokes aside, I think some games have needlessly complex controllers due to poor design. I was able to have fun with RDR2 even in heated moments because the controls made sense and were logical. Horizon Forbidden West on the other hand was seriously frustrating. Why do I have to press the d-pad seven times in the middle of a fight to get to the potion I want?!
I don't mind complexity as long as it's well thought out and not needlessly advanced.
Kupfer
Member
There is good complexity - Kingdom Come: Deliverance.
There is bad complexity - Horizon Forbidden West.
Good complexity encourages you to discover things and learn in-game systems without needing to watch tutorials outside the game. The approaches and conclusions are logical in themselves, all necessary information can be found within the game, and the systems are consistent throughout the game, making them intuitive to use. Bad complexity, on the other hand, frustrates you. There are menus hidden behind other menus, many buttons are assigned to multiple functions, and everything is unnecessarily complicated, even though it could be much more intuitive. Systems that are integral to the game, like climbing, are only usable in specific, predetermined places, instead of everywhere.
There is bad complexity - Horizon Forbidden West.
Good complexity encourages you to discover things and learn in-game systems without needing to watch tutorials outside the game. The approaches and conclusions are logical in themselves, all necessary information can be found within the game, and the systems are consistent throughout the game, making them intuitive to use. Bad complexity, on the other hand, frustrates you. There are menus hidden behind other menus, many buttons are assigned to multiple functions, and everything is unnecessarily complicated, even though it could be much more intuitive. Systems that are integral to the game, like climbing, are only usable in specific, predetermined places, instead of everywhere.
The Cockatrice
I'm retarded?
Ah a gamer79 thread. Worst fucking take of all time. Games are anything but complex nowadays. Perhaps what you meant was bloated which sure, but complex? Dafuq? They're braindead in mechanics.
pudel
Member
If someone here ever feel to play something "complex".....I can recommend the X-series from Egosoft. Its a single player space simulation and literally one of my personal GOAT's. There is no single player game where i have more hours clocked in than these games. Absolutely adore these games. But its Linux/Windows only....so nothing for the console bros here.
Probably should have gone with path of exile as your example. I will say it can be rough at times on some games that don't want to hold your hand, when learning tarkov just trying to build a damn gun was an ordeal. Learning that there though did filter through to other games like gray zone so if you can get to grips with something in a genre the lessons should help going forward.
John Bilbo
Member
Easy to learn, hard to master is the way to go.
Nowadays games are often easy to learn, no need to master though.
Nowadays games are often easy to learn, no need to master though.
kurisu_1974
Member
I don't agree; I think Diablo IV is a simple game, but I have been stumped both now and as a kid on the first screen of some C64 games without having any idea what they wanted me to do.
DoubleClutch
Member
It’s easy. Build a game around a vision and passion. Focus on what you think makes the game fun, not based on what boxes you think need to be checked off.
But big business is behind gaming which in a lot of ways kills creativity.
MrJangles
Member
If a game doesn't click with me almost instantly I just can't be bothered. Some of the stuff I've played over the last few years I seem to spend more time navigating menus and combining weapons and magic and shit than platforming or walloping enemies, I just get a headache and uninstall the bastard. Lies of P is the most recent example, I don't know what the hell was going on but it lasted all of ten minutes with me and quite frankly I couldn't care less how good it is or isn't supposed to be it was uninstalled. No time for it. Most of my gaming time this year was eaten up by the Tomb Raider remasters. No bullshit, just straight up old fashioned gaming.
One genre that has pissed me of no end are PC shooters. Remember when all you needed was w,a,s & d and both mouse buttons? Now you need to assign half the keyboard to bindings and your mouse needs sixteen buttons. Fuck off!
One genre that has pissed me of no end are PC shooters. Remember when all you needed was w,a,s & d and both mouse buttons? Now you need to assign half the keyboard to bindings and your mouse needs sixteen buttons. Fuck off!
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RagnarokIV
Battlebus imprisoning me \m/ >.< \m/
Drug addiction has turned you into a retard, that's the issue.
March Climber
Member
And the reason that works because A is a special move.That's Streets of Rage/Golden Axe and it is fine. And A to call the cops
If A was anything else, you would have the player holding the controller in a way that’s similar or worse to the claw method.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yes, they were. For example, compare Skyrim to Daggerfall, Daggerfall is a much more complex and complicated game with many more skills, weapon types, magic types, etc. "QOL" often entails simplification for the smoothbrains.
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Magic Carpet
Gold Member
Was looking forward to playing Cygni All guns blazing, it was free on Epic Game Store.
Just wanted a twin stick shootem up or a regular shoot em up.
The game has so many mechanics that It's not fun.
Yep Too Complex.
Just wanted a twin stick shootem up or a regular shoot em up.
The game has so many mechanics that It's not fun.
Yep Too Complex.
Hollowpoint5557
A Fucking Idiot
OP nailed this one.
Walter Matthau
Member
I only like games that require a PHD to make it past the title screen.
cinnamonandgravy
Member
just dont force tutorials on me
ricardo_sousa11
Member
They have only gotten more complex because gameplay originality is low.
This will never not be funny.
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