• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Gay and Bisexual relationship thread |OT|

Status
Not open for further replies.
neojubei said:
Nothing works really.

Lying certainly doesn't help so I suggest you stop doing it.

Or perhaps that wasn't a lie, but just ignorance? Clinical depression can be treated. Perhaps some individuals never find a treatment that works for them, but to try and say that everyone suffering from depression is doomed is false.


Botolf said:
Erm, the rest of his post is quite clearly addressed to the wider thread, not you in particular. He even stuck in a hard divider and everything.

I meant the part of his post I quoted... I addressed like the first two or so sentences. Since he used a hard divider I assumed people would realize I was treating the two bits as two separate posts.

The part I didn't address was the whole "that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to rise above labels."

Nobody said we shouldn't.
 
I have mild depression. I'm not depressed 24/7. Just when I think how being with someone and not being with anyone.

..and ugh my brother just got married, so I'm like the only child left single and alone. Thanks for the offer Bel, sometimes it does help to talk with someone else. I think living in Lubbock with no job or friends is crippling me, but what can you do when most of your family don't care.
 
I have depression but you know what? I say fuck you too it. Think about all the awesome shit that IS in your life and make the most of it. No need to be down and out.

ALSO i have a little question why is there a girlgaf thread that seems to be a general catch all thread yet we cant have a gay OT that's not forcing us to be all Relationships.
 
Delio said:
I have depression but you know what? I say fuck you too it. Think about all the awesome shit that IS in your life and make the most of it. No need to be down and out.

ALSO i have a little question why is there a girlgaf thread that seems to be a general catch all thread yet we cant have a gay OT that's not forcing us to be all Relationships.

By any chance was this a self diagnosis?
 
Delio said:
I have depression but you know what? I say fuck you too it. Think about all the awesome shit that IS in your life and make the most of it. No need to be down and out.

ALSO i have a little question why is there a girlgaf thread that seems to be a general catch all thread yet we cant have a gay OT that's not forcing us to be all Relationships.


There is no such thing.
 
I'm really sorry, but this thread just has too many self-involved whiners who moan and curse at what they perceive as gay culture's shallowness and at the unfairness of life. Sorry, but if you expect things to be handed on a platter then wake up.

Look, shallowness isn't just in gay culture - it's EVERYWHERE. Try being straight and see if it's any different. That's the way society nowadays - and you can look at TV and media and already know that's the case. It sucks, but tough. The world is this way now.

But looks is not even close to being everything. I have friends who are overweight and not particularly good-looking but they have tons of friends and are in steady relationships. Why? Because they are confident. They are smart, funny and gregarious. they don't mope around bemoaning their misfortunes - they just go out there. It's all within the mind. Same with me - I was a shy and majorly skinny dweeb with very few friends all the way until college, then I decided that I can't spend my life bemoaning my status. So in university I started going to the gym and going out of my way to meet people and be friendly. And it's not like I went to the gym for vanity reasons to look like models (which I don't - at all) - I just began to appreciate the routine and the health benefits. And it did make me more confident about myself - and that is key. The hardest part is the commitment. You get over that, and you're fine.

You don't like how you look? Go on a diet and start exercising. Afraid of being glared at in the gym because of how you look? Fuck them - that's why you're in the gym - to get fit!

And some of you are as shallow as the people you dismiss - just because they are fit or handsome doesn't mean they are not smart, interesting, worldly or even geeky. I met some great-looking guys who are gamers and are not shy about it. It's just that they also do other things in life as well. It's about having a healthy balance.

Some of you spend too much time caring about what others think of you, when it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is what YOU think of yourself. If you don't do anything to change yourself, then you have zero rights to moan.

And for the record, I haven't had a boyfriend for over 5 years, so it's not like I'm that different from people here. Do I want one? Sure! I'm in my mid-30s now and am not getting any younger. But I'm not gonna pine for one needlessly either. If it happens, it happens.

Such is life.
 
I guess games would be it. Yeah, thats what I do on my free time. This week I'm going to starve myself, lol. See if I can lose this 15lbs.
 
RPGCrazied said:
I have mild depression. I'm not depressed 24/7. Just when I think how being with someone and not being with anyone.

..and ugh my brother just got married, so I'm like the
only child left single and alone. Thanks for the offer Bel, sometimes it does help to talk with someone else. I think living in Lubbock with no job or friends is crippling me, but what can you do when most of your family don't care.

Well if you want to talk i'm on southsky.forumotion.net its easy to join the irc chat from there. Everybody likes rpgs and most are gay. 0m me if you want to talk on facebook although i prefer irc.
 
I deleted my Facebook not to long ago, I had like 2 people on it. Wasn't worth it. I normally use AIM/MSN/Yahoo for any type of messaging.
 
Grimmy said:
I'm really sorry, but this thread just has too many self-involved whiners who moan and curse at what they perceive as gay culture's shallowness and at the unfairness of life. Sorry, but if you expect things to be handed on a platter then wake up.

Look, shallowness isn't just in gay culture - it's EVERYWHERE. Try being straight and see if it's any different. That's the way society nowadays - and you can look at TV and media and already know that's the case. It sucks, but tough. The world is this way now.

But looks is not even close to being everything. I have friends who are overweight and not particularly good-looking but they have tons of friends and are in steady relationships. Why? Because they are confident. They are smart, funny and gregarious. they don't mope around bemoaning their misfortunes - they just go out there. It's all within the mind. Same with me - I was a shy and majorly skinny dweeb with very few friends all the way until college, then I decided that I can't spend my life bemoaning my status. So in university I started going to the gym and going out of my way to meet people and be friendly. And it's not like I went to the gym for vanity reasons to look like models (which I don't - at all) - I just began to appreciate the routine and the health benefits. And it did make me more confident about myself - and that is key. The hardest part is the commitment. You get over that, and you're fine.

You don't like how you look? Go on a diet and start exercising. Afraid of being glared at in the gym because of how you look? Fuck them - that's why you're in the gym - to get fit!

And some of you are as shallow as the people you dismiss - just because they are fit or handsome doesn't mean they are not smart, interesting, worldly or even geeky. I met some great-looking guys who are gamers and are not shy about it. It's just that they also do other things in life as well. It's about having a healthy balance.

Some of you spend too much time caring about what others think of you, when it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is what YOU think of yourself. If you don't do anything to change yourself, then you have zero rights to moan.

And for the record, I haven't had a boyfriend for over 5 years, so it's not like I'm that different from people here. Do I want one? Sure! I'm in my mid-30s now and am not getting any younger. But I'm not gonna pine for one needlessly either. If it happens, it happens.

Such is life.

Easier said than done.
 
Obsessed said:
By any chance was this a self diagnosis?

Nah it was not. Are you saying that because i have been pushing it back? I honestly dont have much wrong in my life CEPT fopr my mother being dead now and not having a car and my bf being over water. BUT i try to stay positive you know. Also neojubei you cant tell me there is not ONE thing in your life that goes right.
 
Delio said:
Nah it was not. Are you saying that because i have been pushing it back? I honestly dont have much wrong in my life CEPT fopr my mother being dead now and not having a car and my bf being over water. BUT i try to stay positive you know. Also neojubei you cant tell me there is not ONE thing in your life that goes right.


Nothing. I mostly happy when I am asleep and in hell when I am awake.
 
neojubei said:
Nothing. I mostly happy when I am asleep and in hell when I am awake.

So other than the racist thing i saw earlier what else is terrible about your every day that it's all hell?
 
neojubei said:
Nothing. I mostly happy when I am asleep and in hell when I am awake.
Have you ever gone to a doctor with this? You know, trying to diagnose the source of your problem? If it's chemical/biological and/or mental/psychological?
 
Souldriver said:
Have you ever gone to a doctor with this? You know, trying to diagnose the source of your problem? If it's chemical/biological and/or mental/psychological?


I've been to 3 psychiatrists. One gave me drugs but they didn't help and i went to one straight psychiatrist and one gay psychiatrist and neither helped.
 
neojubei said:
I've been to 3 psychiatrists. One gave me drugs but they didn't help and i went to one straight psychiatrist and one gay psychiatrist and neither helped.
Perhaps you should go to doctors who try to diagnose the chemical balance in your body. I don't know how you go about doing this in America, but where I live you go to your local physician, who will probably send you to the hospital for some checks, blood samples, ... Perhaps there's a chemical imbalance that can be treated with the right medication. It won't solve all of life's problems off course, but at least then trying to overcome your depression would become a "fair" battle. Something that can be done by willpower, psychiatric help and endurance.
 
Souldriver said:
Perhaps you should go to doctors who try to diagnose the chemical balance in your body. I don't know how you go about doing this in America, but where I live you go to your local physician, who will probably send you to the hospital for some checks, blood samples, ... Perhaps there's a chemical imbalance that can be treated with the right medication. It won't solve all of life's problems off course, but at least then trying to overcome your depression would become a "fair" battle. Something that can be done by willpower, psychiatric help and endurance.


I'll try. Thanks
 
neojubei said:
Easier said than done.

Which is exactly what he said. It's not easy but it can be done and you gotta be willing to put yourself out there for real.

People have said that I look good in this thread, but that doesn't shield me from rejection either. I've have quite a few people dismiss me for whatever valid reason they thought they had but I ultimately don't care. If someone doesn't appreciate me for me then I don't see it worth my time trying to bend over backward to please them.
Sure it stings and gets me a little upset, but there's no use in dwelling on you being rejected.

What umop_3pisdn was trying to say (if I understood correctly) is that you can't think: I'm gonna be positive so people will love me. You have to be positive for the sake of being positive and then people will react to it.
 
Honestly, I more or less agree with the gist of umop's view. Is happiness the checking off of goals, of acquisition? Well, I don't really agree that it is, that it renders an unhappy person into a happy one. Unhappiness is seemingly epidemic, and it touches regardless of relational or financial status. So it would seem to follow that pinning happiness on satisfying your relational and material needs, the underlying problems will resurface again after the euphoria tapers off.

If you're content with who you are and with what you have, then taking on relationships and acquiring things can only augment that contentment, and will mean healthier relationships and a healthier attachment to the things you keep. So it's fine to want things, but wanting them because you hope they'll make you happy misdiagnoses the problem and misses the cure, and sets you on a path of continual success and disappointment. Those external things can certainly help make you aware of and recognize your problems, but they can't cure an internal dysfunction.

Carts and horses and all that, you have to change yourself before your world changes for the better. If you can't change yourself, how can you expect your partner or money to be able to? But that's the thing. With help, you can change, but it's contingent upon you consenting and enforcing that change. No one and no thing can fix your problems for you, you have to stand up and ask for help, even if it doesn't come the first, second, third, fourth, or even fiftieth time. As with anything, you get out what you put in, and saving a life is no less than a life's work.

Obsessed said:
I meant the part of his post I quoted... I addressed like the first two or so sentences. Since he used a hard divider I assumed people would realize I was treating the two bits as two separate posts.
I stand corrected!
 
Grimmy said:
I'm really sorry, but this thread just has too many self-involved whiners who moan and curse at what they perceive as gay culture's shallowness and at the unfairness of life. Sorry, but if you expect things to be handed on a platter then wake up.

Look, shallowness isn't just in gay culture - it's EVERYWHERE. Try being straight and see if it's any different. That's the way society nowadays - and you can look at TV and media and already know that's the case. It sucks, but tough. The world is this way now.

But looks is not even close to being everything. I have friends who are overweight and not particularly good-looking but they have tons of friends and are in steady relationships. Why? Because they are confident. They are smart, funny and gregarious. they don't mope around bemoaning their misfortunes - they just go out there. It's all within the mind. Same with me - I was a shy and majorly skinny dweeb with very few friends all the way until college, then I decided that I can't spend my life bemoaning my status. So in university I started going to the gym and going out of my way to meet people and be friendly. And it's not like I went to the gym for vanity reasons to look like models (which I don't - at all) - I just began to appreciate the routine and the health benefits. And it did make me more confident about myself - and that is key. The hardest part is the commitment. You get over that, and you're fine.

You don't like how you look? Go on a diet and start exercising. Afraid of being glared at in the gym because of how you look? Fuck them - that's why you're in the gym - to get fit!

And some of you are as shallow as the people you dismiss - just because they are fit or handsome doesn't mean they are not smart, interesting, worldly or even geeky. I met some great-looking guys who are gamers and are not shy about it. It's just that they also do other things in life as well. It's about having a healthy balance.

Some of you spend too much time caring about what others think of you, when it doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is what YOU think of yourself. If you don't do anything to change yourself, then you have zero rights to moan.

And for the record, I haven't had a boyfriend for over 5 years, so it's not like I'm that different from people here. Do I want one? Sure! I'm in my mid-30s now and am not getting any younger. But I'm not gonna pine for one needlessly either. If it happens, it happens.

Such is life.

Well said. Unfortunately similar posts have been directed at Neo and RPG and they still bemoan their plight. I just try to ignore at this point.

You sound like someone Id like to be friends with though. :)
 
SpaceBridge said:
Well said. Unfortunately similar posts have been directed at Neo and RPG and they still bemoan their plight. I just try to ignore at this point.

You sound like someone Id like to be friends with though. :)

Ignoring it seems like a good idea :/ Mood of the thread is rather low nowadays though.
 
Delio said:
Ignoring it seems like a good idea :/ Mood of the thread is rather low nowadays though.
I almost thought that I stumbled into the depression thread for a second. At first, some of the posts seem downright depressing...but they also seem so apathetic and self-defeating to the point of comedy.

Even in my darkest of days--when I had attempted to take my own life--I had enough perspective to see that it was I, and I alone, that had to take that first step out of the darkness of despair and towards the light.

Part of me always knew that I could save myself...but I also didn't always feel like I deserved it. Seek help. If you're at your wit's end, what do you have to lose? Do yourself that one favor, and you may find yourself surprised. I thought I was beyond salvation, but here I am today, no longer a hollow shell of misery. I can't even begin to grasp the emotions that I once felt; that's how much I have grown and changed. It really does get better, and that doesn't need to have anything to do with your circumstances; it has to do with conquering the greatest obstacle that you will ever face, and that is yourself.
 
neojubei said:
Easier said than done.

Of course it is. Nothing good comes from getting things easily. Heck, I could easily join the pity party - was diagnosed as manic depressive since I was a teen, tried to off myself a few times, violent and abusive parents, I could go on. Even to this day I still have no relationships with some people in my family.

But you will never see me blame any of my own shortcomings on my parents or my childhood, etc etc. I am who I am because it's what I want to be, not what others told me I should be.

SpaceBridge said:
Well said. Unfortunately similar posts have been directed at Neo and RPG and they still bemoan their plight. I just try to ignore at this point.

You sound like someone Id like to be friends with though. :)

I believe that we are called "gay" because we try to be happy despite the adversities we face in life. Otherwise we all should be renamed "miserable fucks" instead lol.

And thanks for the compliment! You also sound level-headed, which is great. But you sure you wanna hang out with fogeys like me? ;)
 
I think I can be of some assistance in this thread, there is a concept that was touched or a theme in this thread that I would like to expand.

Responsibility in Psychology:

"Only I can change the world I have created for myself"

I use it in the sense that a person is "responsible for" by being the "basis of", the "cause of" the "author of" something.
...Each member in the deepest sense of the concept, is responsible for this space and for the sequence of events that will occur to him or her in the group. The patient, having truly come to appreciate this responsibility, must then accept, too, that there is no hope for change unless he or she changes. Others cannot bring change, nor can change bring itself. One is responsible for one's past and present life in the group (as well as in the outside world) and similarly and totally responsible for one's future.
Thus, the therapist helps the patient to understand that the interpersonal world is arranged in a generally predictable and orderly fashion, that it is not that the patient cannot change but that he or she will not change, that the patient bears the responsibility for the creation of his or her world, and therefore the responsibility for its transmutation.

Irvin D. Yalom - Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy (1995)


While doing some research I found that what I had transcribed to be quoted out of context, contains psychological jargon and doesn't deliver the message I was expecting. Since I put some work into it I'll added to the post and maybe someone will benefit from it.

The term "responsibility" may connote three different things. I do not, in this context, refer to dependability in the sense of fulfilling obligations or keeping promises, or to the assumption of responsibility for others. Attitudes on these scores vary too much to single out constant characteristics for all neuroses. The neurotic may be utterly reliable, or he may assume too much or too little responsibility in regard to others...
The compulsive factors in neuroses are so prevailing that freedom of choice is negligible. For all practical purposes we take it for granted that in general the patient could not develop otherwise than he did; that in particular he could not help doing, feeling, thinking what he did do, feel, think. This viewpoint, however, is not shared by the patient. His lofty disregard for all that means laws and necessities extends to himself too. The fact that, everything considered, his development could go only in certain directions is beneath his consideration. Whether some drive or attitude was conscious or unconscious does not matter.

However insuperable the odds against which he had to struggle he should have met them with unfailing strength, courage, and the equanimity. If he did not do so, it proves that he is no good. Conversely, in self-protection he may rigidly reject any guilt, declare himself infallible, and put the blame for any difficulties, past or present, or others.

Karen Horney - Neurosis and Human Growth (1950). Book can be found here if someone is interested.
 
Obsessed said:
I meant the part of his post I quoted... I addressed like the first two or so sentences. Since he used a hard divider I assumed people would realize I was treating the two bits as two separate posts.

The part I didn't address was the whole "that doesnt mean we shouldnt try to rise above labels."

Nobody said we shouldn't.
And so by furthering the discussion... to you that's a straw man?
 
SpaceBridge said:
Should we start posting pics of hot guys again?
This. I can do.

OXZyV.jpg
 
GothPunk said:
And so by furthering the discussion... to you that's a straw man?

My perception was that you were implying I held the position that we shouldn't do that.

It wouldn't be the first time someone mistook understanding why humans label with the position that we shouldn't even bother trying to ditch labels.

And here is a question. The labels in question were "twink" and "bear."

What is the problem with these labels? All they do is describe a general body type. Ditching labels wouldn't change anything. If you aren't attracted to something you won't magically become attracted to it just because you decide to refrain from using a certain word to describe it.
 
Marius_ said:
This thread just goes in circles
Depression
Twinks vs Bears
Bi talk
Hot guys pics
Etc..

I don't know about others but I've always came to this thread to read about people's relationships and experiences (you know, as the title indicates), to offer advices if I have something to say, lurk if I didn't. I tend to stay away when thread derails into the recurring topics you brought up :P

Obsessed said:
What is the problem with these labels? All they do is describe a general body type. Ditching labels wouldn't change anything. If you aren't attracted to something you won't magically become attracted to it just because you decide to refrain from using a certain word to describe it.

Because most slangs invariably will end up with other connotations attached to them. Of course the context of their usage matters, however, I think it is naive to think that those terms are strictly a description of body type like they may have originally intended to be. Honestly, it's only when people use labels as stereotypes that bothers me.
 
Obsessed said:
My perception was that you were implying I held the position that we shouldn't do that.
It wouldn't be the first time someone mistook understanding why humans label with the position that we shouldn't even bother trying to ditch labels.
Which is why I said ‘we’ and not ‘you’, I was speaking generally about people, the gay community at large etc. I was agreeing with you and then clarifying that I agreed with Zalasta’s position also. Is it really that hard to just ask me to clarify what I meant, or explain your position, before jumping at the chance to cry ‘straw man’?

Dude I dunno if people usually jump to put words in your mouth on this forum but that’s not what I’m doing. I’m genuinely interested in what everyone here has to say so it would be more conducive to discussion if you didn’t automatically assume I was misrepresenting your position.

Perhaps I don’t write very clearly... XD.
Obsessed said:
And here is a question. The labels in question were "twink" and "bear."
What is the problem with these labels? All they do is describe a general body type. Ditching labels wouldn't change anything. If you aren't attracted to something you won't magically become attracted to it just because you decide to refrain from using a certain word to describe it.
Where did I imply this? That’s not what we were saying at all. Look at what Zalasta said in reply:
Zalasta said:
I'm sure most slangs started out innocent enough, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that they haven't evolved into something more negative. In this thread alone there have been people who are equating being slender in built (twink) to be automatically feminine in personality. We already have to live with the labels society has given us, it's sad that we are so eager to do it among ourselves as well.
The point is that these labels carry baggage with them, they are not just labels to describe body type anymore (and perhaps never were). We also end up in silly ‘us versus them’ discussions like ‘twinks versus bears’ and stuff like that, which (I think) is what Zalasta is annoyed with, that within the gay community there are these subdivisions that these labels reinforce.

At the root of all this I think is the question of masculinity and femininity, and that is why these labels interest me. I don't care is someone doesn't find beefy guys or slender guys attractive. More for me!

Remember that I said I think these labels can be fun, I think they’re silly and I don’t take them seriously. However my point was that people who do take the labels very seriously, and assume things about people just because they’re large or small in build, seems a little ignorant to me. You can’t tell a lot about someone just because they’re slender or beefy.

To me it seems the real motivation behind ‘twinks versus bears’ is ‘masculine versus feminine’, and I think this is something that is very interesting. I think the gay community everywhere is very concerned with ideas of masculinity and femininity. You see it in the use of terms like ‘straight acting’, which I often think are like a form of internalised homophobia. This fear of appearing 'too gay' or 'feminine'. Frankly I think the idea that 'bears' are 'real men' to be ridiculous, but we all know people who think like this. On the other hand there are so many guys who act like being a 'twink' is an ideal they have to strive for, and put on a bit of an 'act' due to this idea, and strive to be appear young and thin.

Perhaps I'm getting way too deep into this. Ideas of masculinity and femininity just interest me a lot.
 
Reading this thread is like watching the same five episodes of a tv show over and over again. Well, that's kind of... all of NeoGAF, I guess.
 
GothPunk said:
Which is why I said ‘we’ and not ‘you’, I was speaking generally about people, the gay community at large etc. I was agreeing with you and then clarifying that I agreed with Zalasta’s position also. Is it really that hard to just ask me to clarify what I meant, or explain your position, before jumping at the chance to cry ‘straw man’?

The point is that these labels carry baggage with them, they are not just labels to describe body type anymore (and perhaps never were). We also end up in silly ‘us versus them’ discussions like ‘twinks versus bears’ and stuff like that, which (I think) is what Zalasta is annoyed with, that within the gay community there are these subdivisions that these labels reinforce.

I admit that my perception of your post was wrong. I apologize.

And to be perfectly honest I was unaware of that added baggage those labels held. I've never immersed myself into gay culture enough to see that. As far as I knew they were simply descriptions of body builds and relative levels of body hair.
 
The masculinity/femininity controversy has always been really interesting to me. Might that controversy perhaps be rooted in a practical, social "survival instinct"? The implication of being straight-acting is that one blends in, one is effectively an invisible minority. It follows from there that whoever is given to harassing and ostracizing you would be less able to do so, given that they would have far greater difficulty recognizing and mentally separating you from the group in the first place. To be effeminate is to perhaps rub up against that instinct in some, it may seem impractical or even dangerous.

Anyway, that's my speculation.
 
neojubei said:
I've been to 3 psychiatrists. One gave me drugs but they didn't help and i went to one straight psychiatrist and one gay psychiatrist and neither helped.

Psychiatrists can only do so much. If you are suffering from depression you need the assistance of both a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist (well depending of the etiology one might suffice) but it's optimum if you seek both.
A Psychiatrist treats the body and a Psychologist treats the soul.

With this post I became a full member, yay!. I been thinking of this project on gaf called Neurosis-age promoting mental hygiene and education people about this illness.
 
Marius_ said:
Any of you ever plan on having children? Adopt or a surrogate mother(if you have the money)?
Someday definitely - ideally surrogate, but no issues with adopting.

I always had this pie in the sky dream of finding a surrogate willing to go through two pregancies, one with my child and one with my partner's so our kids could have some sort of blood relation. I know this is a crazy concept, but something I think of from time to time.
 
Rez said:
Reading this thread is like watching the same five episodes of a tv show over and over again. Well, that's kind of... all of NeoGAF, I guess.

We should have multiple gay threads.. instead of just this one.. most of the discussion here isn't really related to gay relationships anyway.
 
SpaceBridge said:
You should just post pics of yourself, really.
Here's some bored polka-dot themed photo booth pictures i just took lol






I'm looking forward to my weekend too MidnightScott! my brazilian interest is sleeping over.
 
Bel Marduk said:
We should have multiple gay threads.. instead of just this one.. most of the discussion here isn't really related to gay relationships anyway.

There's also the coming out thread that nobody uses. People talk about coming out in this thread because they're afraid nobody's going to listen to them in the other thread.
 
Well, mods are trying to not have mega thread. There was a "gay mega-thread" which was closed along many other mega-threads.

Try contacting Evilore; before making one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom