I agree with everything that's said here. Nintendo's marketing presence has hurt them for years now and will continue to do so unless it undergoes radical change. If I could only pick one area to change in NOA, marketing would definitely be it -- more commercials, better style (although IMO the latest GBA commercials have been absolutely fantastic), and more support to third party games.JC10001 said:
GC Japan 3rd Party Situation
- Thread starter jarrod
- Start date
I've always felt that advertising was one of Nintendos strong points. The commercials were much more creative than MS's. Sony takes the cake though for best commercials. Nintendo did have a strong partnership with EA for commercials. I remember a ton of EA commercials that mentioned only GC in the commercial.
That EA thing is a good point, JediMike. I'd forgotten about that.jedimike said:
Yeah, Nintendo's commercials can be pretty creative, but I think often they're too creative -- or as someone else put it, "artsy-fartsy". Sony's seem to strike a balance between the two, whereas Microsoft's are usually on the other end -- blunt and without too much tact.
DrLazy said:
I don't think it's about making the games "I" want. Some of the best-selling games this gen have been mature games, like the GTA series. But also games with a more realistic and serious tone, like GT4, Madden and Winning Eleven. There's definitely a market for mature and more realistic games nowadays. Maybe this is where they should expand their business in the future. But to me, it feels like Nintendo prefer to create their own markets instead of expanding into already well-established ones.
Indeed, I think Nintendo kind of wasted resources on Eternal Darkness and Twin Snakes. I don't think any of those games had a "fresh" feeling to them. Twin Snakes being based on a several years old game (and it passed by unnoticed by the mainstream crowd, it seems), and Eternal Darkness being an old N64 project. If they are serious about getting into the "mature" market, they have to try harder and more frequent. Even though Nintendo aren't developing Resident Evil 4 themselves, I think it's a good step in the right direction if they're pursuing this market.
Twin Snakes might have sold a bit better if Konami and/or Nintendo had actually bothered promoting it. Eternal Darkness also suffered from a pretty weak advertising push.Kiriku said:
And I think the new "realda" is an indication that Nintendo are getting quite serious about pursuing the more mature market. I believe that the Revolution will see an extension of this refocus, particularly in the way the hardware casing is designed.
Nintendo letting SK go elsewhere just prove that they are not interested in "mature" story focused games. Iwata words on simple games just show what they think are their future and the success of GBA classic over complex mature games will not help to change their minds.
You ask Nintendo to be another Sony and of course being the old Nintendo as well and as the same time advertise and lose as much money as MS (which lost 2B$ over the Xbox life to date). You have very unrealistic expectations. If Nintendo tries too hard to be as Sony, they will not beat Sony, they will just fail. MS is trying very hard to be another Sony, and they are learning the hard way. Would they not have big pockets, they would have retired the xbox already. Sony IS the mature/cool market and the public will always choose Sony for that kind of products.
I agree about changing their commercial agency, of course.
You ask Nintendo to be another Sony and of course being the old Nintendo as well and as the same time advertise and lose as much money as MS (which lost 2B$ over the Xbox life to date). You have very unrealistic expectations. If Nintendo tries too hard to be as Sony, they will not beat Sony, they will just fail. MS is trying very hard to be another Sony, and they are learning the hard way. Would they not have big pockets, they would have retired the xbox already. Sony IS the mature/cool market and the public will always choose Sony for that kind of products.
I agree about changing their commercial agency, of course.
There is absolutly no denying that there are a ton of best selling games with mature or serious themes, but I think Nintendo were to go that route they would be foolish because there is still a huge market for kids and families, proven by Pokemon sales.
The Nintendo vs. Disney analogy is overused, but it still rings true. Nintendo should keep developing games that are fun for the whole family, like Disney/Pixar have done with movies, and also create some select other games under a "Miramax" label, like Retro.
Sorry, I just don't buy the who "advertising" argument. Would both games have sold more with a billion commercials? Sure, but I think two of the bigger factors were that Twin Snakes and ED both had a ton of flaws (which I'm not going to get into here) and the simple fact they didn't fit the gamecube market.
How is "realda" any different from Ocrana of Time? Every year people pick out the two or three more "mature" titles releasing on the cube and and say look, Nintendo is getting more serious about the older market. It's not true.
Nintendo's always been the Rocky Balboa living in the mansion on the hill, fighting the battles hand picked to protect him from any real challenger so that his stay at the top can be over extended. Unlike SEGA with the Dreamcast, he's not the hungry scrapper from the streets who knows he's the underdog and is willing to get really involved to change things. SEGA was out evangelizing their platform, pursuing third parties tirelessly, and relentlessly enforcing the image that they were aiming for no less than everything with ambitious plans like their full-hearted online push and attempts at new killer apps. Nintendo is not humble to third parties; they don't have that eye of the tiger.
I agree that neither game is the best fit for the GC market, but I think proper advertising could've really bolstered their sales. As for either game being seriously flawed, it's a matter of opinion, but I don't think it factors much into sales; after all, Driv3r has enough flaws and bugs to make Enter The Matrix look like a masterpiece, but it's selling fantastically in some areas and respectably in others.DrLazy said:
Also keep in mind that REmake was a mature game that was only an update of an existing game, much like MGS: TTT. Thanks to good advertising, though, it sold very respectably.
It seems to be different than OoT because it appears to have a much darker atmosphere than OoT from what we've seen so far (which admittedly hasn't been too much). Irregardless, if you take the new LoZ into context with ALL of Nintendo's more "mature" moves this generation -- securing the RE series, commissioning SK to do their two more adult games, allowing Link to be placed into a third-party realistic fighter, the tech-savvy look and more adult-centric marketing of the GBA SP -- I think the effort is more pronounced than in previous generations, which is why I stand firm on my comments about the Revolution.
Of course, a more close focus on the mature market doesn't at all mean that Nintendo can't continue to produce its classic "all ages" franchises, which obviously would be a colossal mistake.
Everything (somewhat) rings true but the last bit. Nintendo's gone a long way towards restoring 3rd party relationships, so much so that 3rd parties actually want Nintendo to succeed in the market. The fact that they mended relationships with Square and Namco speaks volumes.Lazy8s said:
Besides, it's not as if Sega's always played the "humble" pursuer towards 3rd parties either(Working Designs, Electronic Arts, etc). In fact, Nintendo's done a better job at gaining notable 3rd party support on GameCube than Sega ever has with any of their platforms.
One could say Nintendo's limiting reluctance is a far better corporate trait than Sega ambitious incompetence... after all, look where each firm stands today compared to a decade ago.
ironichaos
Member
I think many of you overlook the fact that Nintendo was enduring a huge executive transitional period from the Nintendo 64 to the GameCube generation. We are just now finally seeing the new execs and the new hierarchy becoming comfortable in their positions. I mean, the loss of Yamauchi himself is not something to be taken lightly...and neither is Howard Lincoln, Peter Main, Minoru Arakawa, Hiroshi Imanishi and the many others.
I think the GameCube was a mesh between the old and new Nintendo - and we have a very conflicting product as a result...a conflicting purpose, a conflicting market, a conflicting image and what not.
I think Nintendo's 2004 E3 presentation is enough to prove the point that the new execs have become much more comfortable in their positions and we are finally seeing the results of this - Resident Evil 4, the new Legend of Zelda, "kickin' ass and takin' names", the Nintendo DS, and eventually the Revolution.
Also, regarding the "mature" vs. "kiddy" topic. I think Nintendo should look to the films such as Jurassic Park, The Lord of The Rings, and Titanic for a direction in more of its games. These films appeal to men and women, young and old. They have a sense of romance, a sense of adventure, and also a sense of something grand. This is also why I think many of you are wrongly downplaying the effect the new Legend of Zelda will have on Nintendo and the GameCube.
I think the GameCube was a mesh between the old and new Nintendo - and we have a very conflicting product as a result...a conflicting purpose, a conflicting market, a conflicting image and what not.
I think Nintendo's 2004 E3 presentation is enough to prove the point that the new execs have become much more comfortable in their positions and we are finally seeing the results of this - Resident Evil 4, the new Legend of Zelda, "kickin' ass and takin' names", the Nintendo DS, and eventually the Revolution.
Also, regarding the "mature" vs. "kiddy" topic. I think Nintendo should look to the films such as Jurassic Park, The Lord of The Rings, and Titanic for a direction in more of its games. These films appeal to men and women, young and old. They have a sense of romance, a sense of adventure, and also a sense of something grand. This is also why I think many of you are wrongly downplaying the effect the new Legend of Zelda will have on Nintendo and the GameCube.
ironichaos--I've said that a few times in the past. It is important to keep in mind that there was major change of the guard, which affected the way the GC was launched. That doesn't mean that the current leaders shouldn't be absolved of criticisim, but there are certain things that are out of their hands.
Again, I truly think that a great launch is more important than ever. The Xbox and GC's future were determined during their launches and that of the PS2's. The amount of momentum that Sony has going into the next generation as the last entry will be a huge factor in the direction of the next generation. If MS and Nintendo want to change things, they will need to carefully plan the first months or even the first year of their systems lifetime. They can't go through droughts or release projects that don't live up to expectations.
Again, I truly think that a great launch is more important than ever. The Xbox and GC's future were determined during their launches and that of the PS2's. The amount of momentum that Sony has going into the next generation as the last entry will be a huge factor in the direction of the next generation. If MS and Nintendo want to change things, they will need to carefully plan the first months or even the first year of their systems lifetime. They can't go through droughts or release projects that don't live up to expectations.
ironichaos
Member
Definitely. It's sort of like buying a house. If the former owners didn't take care of the siding or the roof, the new owners are going to have to deal with the repercussions of those past decisions. Leaks in the ceiling, basement, etc. Both that damage and the origins of the damage must be repaired.
Especially in an industry where future decisions have to be made several years in advance (development cycles), this makes the legacy of the old Nintendo that much more difficult to mend.
Also, you're right about the launch being a critical period.
I enjoy the style of Nintendo ads, but that doesn't make the effective. Microsoft's bluntness seemed to work better than Nintendo's sytlish cube ads.
Something often forgotten is that third parties do have to go up against Nintendo quality titles. That will always be a disadvantage for them. These days, Nintendo tries to publish a game at least once every two or three months. If third parties had to go up against another Final Fantasy or GTA that often they wouldn't sell as well either. The competition for buyers money is automatically harder on a Nintendo system due to the reputation of their games.
The weirdest thing I have seen regarding GC and Japan has been the attitude of some 3rd parties that seemed incredible happy with Nintendo but screwed them to death.
First of them is Koei, which hasn't done ANYTHING for the system with the exception of the old Battle Houshin. Then comes Banpresto, IREM and some medium companies that haven't brought any games to the platfform...
Would have change that much ? No, probably not ... But it just gives an idea about Nintendo and medium 3rd parties. Things don't work there.
They have just focussed on getting 4 famous names and that's all...there was needed more.
First of them is Koei, which hasn't done ANYTHING for the system with the exception of the old Battle Houshin. Then comes Banpresto, IREM and some medium companies that haven't brought any games to the platfform...
Would have change that much ? No, probably not ... But it just gives an idea about Nintendo and medium 3rd parties. Things don't work there.
They have just focussed on getting 4 famous names and that's all...there was needed more.
Link316 said:
Why shouldn't it? Ocarina of Time was the best selling game in the series. This looks to even be a step up from that. Just look at the artwork. Link in OoT has that generic anime look. Zelda XII Link has an evolved, more grown up look. Doesn't look like something out of an anime, he looks battle-worn, and, well, a lot more badass than his OoT self.
If people see this new Zelda as another Ocarina of Time, except grittier, then I don't know why sales wouldn't go up. Being associated with OoT is one of the best moves Nintendo can do with the Zelda franchise. Just look at TWW preorder sales.
There's also a feeling of absence. Nintendo made OoT in 1998. There have been 5 Zeldas since then, and another one coming next year. However, MM was a game released in the dying days of the N64, two GBC titles were made, and kinda forgotten, TWW put forth a new look which many people hated, and ignored, and the last game was a multiplayer game which has found only about 10% of the Zelda userbase. Zelda XII will be the first "real" Zelda for them in a very long time.
I just wanna re-say some things. Going into this generation (the Yamauchi) Nintendo focused on the Japanese market alot...I think he was trying to "save face" in the "home land". While this has helped GAMECUBE to be more supported by Japanese publishers and will, in the end, result in more Japanese marketshare than last generation it also really hurt their western presense. The N64, in the U.S., was sort of a focus platform for western publishers and games like the Tom Clansy series, Star Wars, FPS's, wrestling games, etc. GAMECUBE has lost pretty much all of that...and in turn X-BOX is now the home for these types of games and has been a better focus platform for western publishers. Why? Mr. Yamauchi saw MS as no threat and (with his Japanese focused goggles) he ignored them altogether. He was a legendary leader of this industry, and his strides to rebuild the burned bridges with Japanese publishers was awesome...but his Japanese-only focus has *really* hurt Nintendo's western presense and given MS a foothold where Nintendo slipped up. The Japanese games are fine and dandy, the fun approach is great and the trendy design of the GAMECUBE was great for Japan...but killed their already lacking image in the U.S.!
This is the new (Iwata) Nintendo now though. They've since switched their advertising companies and I've noticed a step up there, made black & platinum their focus colors for GAMECUBE, more TV commersials and less BS PR, and overall, I think they've done good to turn things around when literally NOA had to deal with NCL's bad console design. I think they're also listening more as the new Zelda proves (I, literally thought that the new Zelda was going to be a WW sequal so I was pleased and I think the industry in general was a lil' shocked) and if the rumors are true of them making a better LOOKING system then I think they'll do better. They need to finnish up this generation fully and as best as they can...and I really think in the end they're going to pull ahead of MS in the U.S. 'cos MS seems to be moving their focus to next generation next year, unlike Nintendo who will have two *very* kick ass exclussives next year while the X-BOX has...none IMO! Going in at 2ND place with at the same time as PS3 (not a year+ later) with a better strategy, better image, a more serious looking system and this time not ignoring MS and I'd say "Revolution" is a real turning point for Nintendo.
This is the new (Iwata) Nintendo now though. They've since switched their advertising companies and I've noticed a step up there, made black & platinum their focus colors for GAMECUBE, more TV commersials and less BS PR, and overall, I think they've done good to turn things around when literally NOA had to deal with NCL's bad console design. I think they're also listening more as the new Zelda proves (I, literally thought that the new Zelda was going to be a WW sequal so I was pleased and I think the industry in general was a lil' shocked) and if the rumors are true of them making a better LOOKING system then I think they'll do better. They need to finnish up this generation fully and as best as they can...and I really think in the end they're going to pull ahead of MS in the U.S. 'cos MS seems to be moving their focus to next generation next year, unlike Nintendo who will have two *very* kick ass exclussives next year while the X-BOX has...none IMO! Going in at 2ND place with at the same time as PS3 (not a year+ later) with a better strategy, better image, a more serious looking system and this time not ignoring MS and I'd say "Revolution" is a real turning point for Nintendo.
I don't know about ''the more serious look'' (i think both the GC and the Xbox look like toys, and atleast the GC looks like an expensive, quality toy. Xbox looks like some cheap piece of crap toy picked up in a supermarket). I for one would be very dissapointed if the next nintendo isn't purple. I don't think they should alienate their current fans by going for the ''mature'' market.
Prepare to be disappointed. There's no way the system is going to be purple again. As trivial as it sounds, I think that alone was at least somewhat responsible for the image problems Nintendo has had this generation.Gchaime said:
If they have their classic franchises on the Revolution, there's no reason why a sleeker look would alienate their more traditional fanbase...but it would draw the interest of those who are turned off by a purple console.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
I've always stated everytime a revolution thread/nintendo strategy thread that NINTENDO's biggest cube problem was/is the
a) colour
b) dvd/lack of
c) design
these 3 factors severely underminded N's next/this gen console foray in more ways Nintendo could have imagine. I wonder what they're thinking now - it is strange in so many ways that
the DS looked like utter rubbish when someone at Nintendo designed the stupendous looking GBASP
as for revolution, it will face a pretty big challenge trying to regain marketshare (in the us at least) - I hope they get the console right so it will have allure to the gaming public.
console sales = 3rd party support
and on this matter...
WHAT THE FUCK IS SEGA DOING IN BED WITH MS. Make games for consoles where they will sell and we can then get sequels. AND WHERE THE FUCK IS MONKEY BALL 3 and JSR/F 2
a) colour
b) dvd/lack of
c) design
these 3 factors severely underminded N's next/this gen console foray in more ways Nintendo could have imagine. I wonder what they're thinking now - it is strange in so many ways that
the DS looked like utter rubbish when someone at Nintendo designed the stupendous looking GBASP
as for revolution, it will face a pretty big challenge trying to regain marketshare (in the us at least) - I hope they get the console right so it will have allure to the gaming public.
console sales = 3rd party support
and on this matter...
WHAT THE FUCK IS SEGA DOING IN BED WITH MS. Make games for consoles where they will sell and we can then get sequels. AND WHERE THE FUCK IS MONKEY BALL 3 and JSR/F 2
GameCube's design is great actually, it's the (purple) coloring that puts people off. If they'd have launched with just black, or maybe added another neutral color like white or grey (and not color coded the controller buttons), a lot of the inital image problems would've vanished I think.
ironichaos
Member
Yes, and you have to remember it was Yamauchi who had an affinity for the color purple.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I don't think the image problem has anything to do with the console, but instead, with Nintendo themselves...
I think the problem there stems from Nintendo's association with Pokemon though (the Nintendo= kiddie thing really started around 1998/99 with Pokemon's inception). Maybe it'd be better to let the Pokemon Company set up it's own American subsidiary for publishing and let Nintendo remove their name from the products entirely?MightyHedgehog said:
You've gotta admit though, the "fisher price colored" GameCube didn't help them in the image department. Thank god they kept Yamauchi from naming it StarCube...
Buffy4ever
Banned
TheGreenGiant said:
What does Sega have to do with this topic. Remember Sega can make games for whomever they want to. They are not obligated to support any game company since going 3rd party. We have all heard the cries, how Sega should be doing this or that. Let's Keep this about Nintendo.
AniHawk said:
7.6M sold
3.3M sold
4M each
3.3M
It seems "real zelda"(s) used to sell 3/4M each and OOT is the exception, not the rule "a real Zelda" should follow. Interesting that all those 4M selling games are forgotten just because you need it. The Oracles games reached more gamers than Halo.
MightyHedgehog
Member
wazoo said:
Well, duh. LoZ isn't exactly a new franchise, nor is it considered anything but one of the top 3 franchises in video game history and the Oracles gamers are the best on portable, IMO. Halo's had one game, three years ago on one console platform that isn't the most popular and a recent PC conversion that sold pretty OK. Zelda's been on 5 or so platforms (8 if you count GB, GBC, and GBA as separate platforms) and has been around for nearly twenty years. How many LoZ games have ever been made? How many reissues of the game?
Point is: dumb comparison, IMO, even if it meant little.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Zelda will never be forgotten, man... Anyway, you're right.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Yeah, I gathered that much. Maybe it's my Zelda-Halo reflex thing... :S Well, except for WW which can be forgotten, IMO...
MightyHedgehog said:
To a lil' degree yes...but to totally dismiss the bad shell design choices for the GAMECUBE as a reason why Nintendo is seen as even *more* "kiddie" would be a mistake.
Microsoft had never made a console before, but because of their money, power & influence people saw them as a serious competitor...but that was *backed up* by the console itself looking like a big, dark, powerful, hulking, serious-looking peice of electronics.
Nintendo has had a "kiddie" image ever since Sega started their own "cool/attitude" image which poked fun at Nintendo's family-friendliness! That "kiddie" image was only amplified by Nintendo's success with PokeMon and focused on due to Sony (with a more grown up image) dethroning them...however, Nintendo had a chance at SW 2000 to grab everyone's attention and change that image not only with their outlook & game content...but also by the way the system, itself, looked. But when it was unveiled what did the masses see? A toy, a trendy shape, with multiple freindly colors and a goofy handle.* The outlook was there, the content was there, but none of that mattered when system itself looked silly at a time when Nintendo *needed* to look serious. Nintendo didn't back them selves up, in other words, with a system that looked serious. And because of this, coupled with some of the existing "kiddie" image, pre-labelled Nintendo as the kid's choice BEFORE the thing even launched.
*Again, I loved the design, but I was/am a die-hard Nintendo fan. The rest of the public (and I was in DENIAL about this back then) hated the design...they couldn't look past it, people in America actually felt embarrassed holding the GAMECUBE controller. Then came MS with a serious looking machine to steal alot of Nintendo's thunder, and IMO, some of their fanbase.
AniHawk said:
That would be a dream scenario I would buy. But you are putting too much confidence on the WW look for explaining the sales difference. ALL Nintendo franchises sold worse this gen, not only Zelda. Mario Kart DD is very far from MK64 performance, with a ratio which is equivalent to Zelda.
OOT sales were also a result of hype and starvation. There are many more games ont the GC to choose. I'm not sure that overall Nintendo first paty total sales are lower this gen but they seem to be dissoluted to a wider library.
Well, things seem to be turning around a little so far. Coming up in Japan...
-Boboboubo Boubobo Escape Hajikerowaiaru (Hudson)
-Chibi Robo (Bandai)
-Biohazard 4 (Capcom)
-Digimon World IV (Bandai)
-Goldeneye 2: Rogue Agent (EA)
-Home Land (ChunSoft)
-Jikkyou Powerful Pro Yakyuu 11 Chou Ketteiban (Konami)
-Killer 7 (Capcom)
-Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (EA)
-Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen! 3 (Tomy)
-StarCraft: Ghost (Capcom)
-Super Robot Taisen GC (Banpresto)
-Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2: Battle Nexus (Konami)
-Urbz: Sims in the City (EA)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Capcom)
-Virtua Fighter Cyber Generation: Judgment Six no Yabou (Sega)
-Zoids Versus III (Tomy)
-Boboboubo Boubobo Escape Hajikerowaiaru (Hudson)
-Chibi Robo (Bandai)
-Biohazard 4 (Capcom)
-Digimon World IV (Bandai)
-Goldeneye 2: Rogue Agent (EA)
-Home Land (ChunSoft)
-Jikkyou Powerful Pro Yakyuu 11 Chou Ketteiban (Konami)
-Killer 7 (Capcom)
-Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (EA)
-Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen! 3 (Tomy)
-StarCraft: Ghost (Capcom)
-Super Robot Taisen GC (Banpresto)
-Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2: Battle Nexus (Konami)
-Urbz: Sims in the City (EA)
-Viewtiful Joe 2 (Capcom)
-Virtua Fighter Cyber Generation: Judgment Six no Yabou (Sega)
-Zoids Versus III (Tomy)
Alcibiades
Member
WTF?!
Have the Oracle games really sold 8 million?
HALOWNED!
Have the Oracle games really sold 8 million?
HALOWNED!
jarrod said:
Errr, huh? Did this pop back on the map? Did I not get the memo?
chibirobo.com hasn't been touched since 11/04/03, Bandai officially put the game on 'indefinite hold' a month after Nichi wrote "Circumstances have forced us to drop one game, so we're concentrating on a single title at the office in Ebisu" in his blog, and skiptokyo is talking mostly about their '24' project, though they have made some mention recently to a new secret game.
I wonder why Koei never bothered with Dynasty/Samurai Warriors ports for GameCube since they keep pumping them out for XBox? Battle Houshin wasn't even devloped internally (it was farmed out to Shade/Quintet)... they never really gave GC a fair shot.ourumov said:Now we only need Koei to release something interesting, and Taito and Irem of course.
Taito had a GC version of Gramon Battle though, their Rakugaki Kingdom based battle game. That was pretty interesting... not to mention the GC port of Super Puzzle Bobble 2. Outside those two series, Taito's not really doing much outside funding Takumi/Alfa System/Triangle Service shooters and Falcom Remakes... I guess Battle Gear's nice too.
Irem though really has ignored GameCube... wierd considering their close relationship with Nintendo in the 1980s.
TheGreenGiant
Banned
jarrod said:
A) IREM sucks. I cringe to see their logo on any game
B) Koei did a very gay kiddy title for the cube. No respect for them for doing that. But then the dynasty franchise is mongoloid love crap.