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Geobiologist finds potential signs of ancient life in Mars rover photos

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Anjelus_

Junior Member
You have made lot of bold assumptions about the probablity of finding intelligent alien life that may or may not be true.

Lets go over some of the unverified assumptions that you have made:

1) The timeframes of us and a potential alien civilisation have to match up, and that is unlikely.

The problem with this is that it assumes that all intelligent civilisations eventually become extinct, which is definitely not proven.

If all civilisation don't necessarily become extinct, then they have the capacity to live through a significant percentage of the timeline of the universe. This would mean that it is not unlikely for us to be alive at the same time as other intelligent civilisations.

2) We can only explore a fraction of the galaxy, therefore the odds of spatially approaching an alien civilisation is very low.

This implies that alien civilisations, like humans thus far, can only occupy and/or explore a small fraction of the galaxy.

This article has some interesting math on how a potential self-replicating machine could colonise an entire galaxy in 3.75 million years, a tiny fraction of the timeline of the universe. This is using relatively conservative estimates on travel time (well below light speed travel), and with 500 years of colonisation required per planet.


Remember, we are talking about civilisations that potentially have millions of years of technological advancement under their belt.

TL:DR - Nobody knows the odds of finding another civilisation is, so no, you cant just say it is extremely low. Attempts to estimate the odds, such as with the Fermi Paradox, have indicated the probability of other alien species to be quite high. The reason it is a paradox is because we haven't already made contact!




Okay, I highlighted and underlined the problems I see with your statement. Bear in mind, my entire premise is that the odds of our encountering advanced alien life are very low, I'm not at all saying it's impossible.

"If an all civilizations don't become extinct," such a civilization would be entirely against our understanding of how entropy works. All life on Earth dies, the Earth will die, the stars die. There may be a civilization that never becomes extinct, I haven't assumed there isn't, but there probably isn't when we look at our nature itself works. And even if such a civilization did exist, I still don't think it's likely we'd come into contact with them.

Where do they exist? Are they near us in the galaxy? Are they in the galaxy at all? How long ago did they start being a civilization? What if they only start being a space faring civilization 30,000 years in the future and last until the end of the universe? What if they've been a space faring civilization for a billion years but have conquered Andromeda? Or not even Andromeda, what if they're in the farthest known galaxy?

Do you see where this doesn't undermine my premise at all? The very notion that such a civilization exists is itself improbable, and the countless variables involved in it coming into contact with us are also improbable.

I'm not saying it's impossible we'd meet this civilization, I said it's improbable. If you were gambling, would this be a safe bet to make?

As far as the second point, it kinda ties into what I just said. Yes if there was a self-replicating machine colonizing the galaxy the situation would be different, but that's not a probable scenario.

I like sci-fi as much as the next person, but we're just not likely to run into a civilization like our own. Even if we did have FTL travel, the immensity of spacetime would always be a significant barrier.



p.s. Even if we were "fortunate" enough to run into aliens of equal to or greater technological capacity, there's a not-insignificant chance it would be less "Star Trek First Contact" and more "Spanish invasion of the New World."
 

Anjelus_

Junior Member
Anjelus, I've just seen your second post here and I keep finding more and more that I disagree with.

The certainty at which you ascribe the odds of finding intelligent life is baffling considering that it is a question that has anything but a consensus on in the scientific community.

Really, a read of the Fermi Paradox Wikipedia page will probably dissuade you of your line of thinking.

This is one of the key arguments that you make which I disagree with in your second post:



This is not true in the slightest. You can explore and colonise the galaxy at slower than light speeds, it just takes a long time. Even if it took millions of years, it is an insignificant span of time compared to the timeline of the universe.




Dude, honestly, I'm staring at entire books on the Fermi paradox on my bookshelf right now, I don't need to read the Wikipedia page. If you look at my statement, I qualified interstellar exploration with "meaningful." Yes, we can explore the galaxy, but if it takes us millions of years to do it, I think we're losing touch with the definition of "meaningful."

A million years ago there were completely different hominids in the world along with humans. A million years before that our common ancestors were barely recognizable to us. A million years from now, will we share any meaningful lineage, other than genetics, with our descendants? Will our species even exist by then?

If that's alright with you, fine, but that's completely outside the scope of my argument.


EDIT: Fact-checked, Humans have barely been here 500,000 years (probably closer to 200,000), much less than a million. My point still stands though.
 
Just chilling.

lifeonmars3bm_450x250.jpg
 
Anjelus_ said:
p.s. Even if we were "fortunate" enough to run into aliens of equal to or greater technological capacity, there's a not-insignificant chance it would be less "Star Trek First Contact" and more "Spanish invasion of the New World."

I disagree with the sentiment entirely. What motives would an alien species have for a Spanish style invasion?"

The spanish raided for money and gold and resources. Unless the earth holds some extremely rare resource that's not available anywhere else in the universe it doesn't make sense they would attack us. At least not for those motives.

The universe is far too large and far too expensive for anybody to be warring over resources or space. If someone attacks us, it's because they're the equivalent of an intergalactic bully or they think we're a threat for some reason.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
I disagree with the sentiment entirely. What motives would an alien species have for a Spanish style invasion?"

The spanish raided for money and gold and resources. Unless the earth holds some extremely rare resource that's not available anywhere else in the universe it doesn't make sense they would attack us. At least not for those motives.

The universe is far too large and far too expensive for anybody to be warring over resources or space. If someone attacks us, it's because they're the equivalent of an intergalactic bully or they think we're a threat for some reason.

The US has a shitton of water and iron. A people who evolved with different needs may use water as an industrial material, and owning Earth is a lot more convenient than having to catch and mine comets.
 

Anjelus_

Junior Member
I disagree with the sentiment entirely. What motives would an alien species have for a Spanish style invasion?"

The spanish raided for money and gold and resources. Unless the earth holds some extremely rare resource that's not available anywhere else in the universe it doesn't make sense they would attack us. At least not for those motives.

The universe is far too large and far too expensive for anybody to be warring over resources or space. If someone attacks us, it's because they're the equivalent of an intergalactic bully or they think we're a threat for some reason.



It's not a literal comparison in the sense that the aliens would fight us over resources. Resources aren't the issue, communication is the issue. How many species of animal are there on Earth that we disregard and view as inferior? They're all related to us and we share much of the same DNA with everything here, but what about an alien life form that we share no lineage with whatsoever? What if it's not even based on DNA? Or it's entire evolutionary cycle has differed revolutionarily from ours? What the hell kind of interaction could we possibly have, if we were even able to comprehend each other in the first place?

I said the chances of being the case are not-insignificant, which I stand by.
 

Pikelet

Member
I do enjoy this discussion! Here are my thoughts on your responses.

Okay, I highlighted and underlined the problems I see with your statement. Bear in mind, my entire premise is that the odds of our encountering advanced alien life are very low, I'm not at all saying it's impossible.

"If an all civilizations don't become extinct," such a civilization would be entirely against our understanding of how entropy works. All life on Earth dies, the Earth will die, the stars die. There may be a civilization that never becomes extinct, I haven't assumed there isn't, but there probably isn't when we look at our nature itself works. And even if such a civilization did exist, I still don't think it's likely we'd come into contact with them.

If a species is capable of interstellar colonisation I posit that such colonisation would spread exponentially.

By what mechanism can entropy cause an extinction of a species that occupies multiple planets across the galaxy, or heck, multiple galaxies? The heat death of the universe?

The death of a planet or star is insignificant to such a civilisation.

As far as the second point, it kinda ties into what I just said. Yes if there was a self-replicating machine colonizing the galaxy the situation would be different, but that's not a probable scenario.

The thing about this scenario is that it doesn't even require a self-replicating machine, a lifeform could accomplish it also. The point is that even without delving into FTL territory, the nature of exponential growth allows for the colonisation of entire galaxies in relatively short timespans.

If you look at my statement, I qualified interstellar exploration with "meaningful." Yes, we can explore the galaxy, but if it takes us millions of years to do it, I think we're losing touch with the definition of "meaningful."

A million years ago there were completely different hominids in the world along with humans. A million years before that our common ancestors were barely recognizable to us. A million years from now, will we share any meaningful lineage, other than genetics, with our descendants? Will our species even exist by then?

I acknowledge that we would evolve and probably be completely unrecognisable as a species, but I'm not sure why this would fundamentally change anything. It still counts as exploration and/or colonisation in my book.

p.s. Even if we were "fortunate" enough to run into aliens of equal to or greater technological capacity, there's a not-insignificant chance it would be less "Star Trek First Contact" and more "Spanish invasion of the New World."

I prefer the analogy that the alien species would be the Spanish, and humanity would be a colossally insignificant ant hill :p
 
Nanomachines.

.......seriously!

Intelligent life on mars developed nanomachines which eventually multiplied and devoured all living and non living organic and inorganic (metal plastic etc) material on the planet, which is why there are no buildings.

All that red dust is actually....I dunno....nanomachine poop.

I mean really, it's always nanomachines.
 

Raonak

Banned
The US has a shitton of water and iron. A people who evolved with different needs may use water as an industrial material, and owning Earth is a lot more convenient than having to catch and mine comets.

Water and Iron aren't exactly unique resources. Mining europa would probably give them all the water and iron they need.
 
Water and Iron aren't exactly unique resources. Mining europa would probably give them all the water and iron they need.

In fact, wouldn't iron be a really, really common result of stellar fusion? I believe that when you keep fusing elements to make more massive ones, Iron is the point where it stops generating energy and starts costing it, so stars usually end up building lots of iron as sort of a leftover from the fusion chain reaction. It's probably all over the place. Hydrogen and oxygen are similarly common.
 

Myzer

Member
In fact, wouldn't iron be a really, really common result of stellar fusion? I believe that when you keep fusing elements to make more massive ones, Iron is the point where it stops generating energy and starts costing it, so stars usually end up building lots of iron as sort of a leftover from the fusion chain reaction. It's probably all over the place. Hydrogen and oxygen are similarly common.

Iron is estimated the 6th most comment element in the galaxy at around 1000 parts per million. (Hydrogen is something like 739000ppm, Oxygen 10000ppm)
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Water and Iron aren't exactly unique resources. Mining europa would probably give them all the water and iron they need.

So? Just because there is iron in one hill doesn't mean somebody else won't mine another.

It's totally possible that rival capitalist ventures could begin extracting from different parts of our solar system. And the most valuable resource of Earth is probably its life.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
but I mean...my post was obviously a joke..how could anyone take it otherwise? (not to mention a spoiler for a popular tv show)

People are talking about Atlantis in this thread, dude. It's hard to know what's real and what isn't.
 
The US has a shitton of water and iron. A people who evolved with different needs may use water as an industrial material, and owning Earth is a lot more convenient than having to catch and mine comets.

Team America: Sol System Police

Those alien terrorist bastards won't get a drop of our water.
 
I would assume that if there was an ancient civilization on Mars, there would be actual evidence of that, like buildings and structures and shit....not just evidence of microbes having once been knocking around

While I don't think it's logical (like, at all) to assume that there was ever any sort of complex human-like intelligence on Mars without hard evidence, it's pretty easy for the powerful forces of nature to completely destroy and bury things like buildings/cities/statues over geologically short periods of time. I mean...it's already happened in the last 3000 or so years that human beings have been around. Important BCE cities and civilizations were lost to time for thousands of years.
If Martian civilization wasn't "recent" it wouldn't be rational to look for buildings or things like that unless you want to spend a boatload of money on highly durable drones skilled in Archaeology and Paleontology.
 

-Stranger-

Junior Member
If we find out Mars had life, that's cool. But isn't ultimately depressing?

Lends credence to the idea that Earth might die out too.

There is no might about it.
The Earth will die out, eventually.
If humanity wishes to survive long term beyond our planet's lifespan.
We will need to take to the stars.
 
Most religions in "danger"?

They'd adapt. They've made it this far. No way they're going anywhere.

If by adapt you mean they'll rationalize their texts into things they aren't like turning them into merely allegories in order to make everything still fit the "God did it still doe" then yes.

It would also destroy the remaining barely significant integrity they have as persuasive arguments to convert anyone. "The story of creation and man has been downgraded to a poem", "yea but it's still the truth."
 
We must confront the reality of interstellar travel.

The expansion of the sun will happen so far into the future that if there are intelligent beings around at that point then interstellar travel would be child's play. Not to mention they could likely move the Earth into a better orbit.
 
With all these discoveries, I am getting more and more optimistic at finding proof of martian life within our lifetimes.

Actual Martian life? Doubt it. Evidence of? Most Likely.

I forget most of the detailed facts about the two planets, but from what I recall both planets are very similar. Is it possible that in the beginning stages of the Solar System, the two were going through similar processes, but Mars atmosphere gave out while Earth was actually in the sweet spot for life to flourish.
 

StayDead

Member
It would mean that an evolutive stop or "great filter" is ahead of us, instead of behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

The great filter is a bit of a silly concept as it assumes all life if it existed would play out exactly the same. Our species hasn't evolved in a very long time and due to the fact we have technology I doubt we ever will. Good diets have led to us getting taller as the past two centuries have passed but there's nothing that could happen to us now that we couldn''t either fix or avoid by the use of advanced technology.

The only thing that could possibly destroy us is if the Sun decided to go supernova or kill all technology on earth with a huge solar flare or if we bomb ourselves to oblivion. Even in Mars' case, it's entirely possible that whatever life was on Mars learnt of space travel and left millions, if not billions of years ago. The universe is such a huge place and while we haven't seen any other life outside of Earth, we can't automatically assume it doesn't exist as we've not seen it. We've barely seen any of the universe as it is and some of the parts we can observe now, we're seeing the rememnants of what was there millions/billions of years ago rather than what's happening this very moment due to the way light works.
 
There's a "good" (good in terms of places in our solar system it probably has the second highest chance after Earth) possibility we could find life on Europa, less a possibility it could be also found on Titan.

Basically, Atlantis actually exists under the ice of Europa. <_< >_>
 
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