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[Westbahnhof]

I'm not saying it's the only reason. It's obvious the cops in the states lack proper training, constant psych evaluations, being designed with the purpose of holding minorities down, the wrong people constantly being allowed in and an abhorrent culture. But you can't deny that the homogenous nature of other countries allow them to do things that won't be possible in the states because of the "other".

I really don't think that it's a contributing factor.
I also wouldn't call Germany more homogeneous just because more people are white. Idk. Loads of white migrants/minorities.
Edit: i mean, sure it's more homogeneous, but not as much as you might assume

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Traditionally we have 3 school paths in Germany.

The police used to hire 3 types:
- middle school path (Realschulabschluss) for middle service (mittlerer Dienst)
- high school path (Abitur) for high service (gehobener Dienst)
- some few with university degrees in useful fields


That kinda stopped in the 80's, almost only people with Abitur were hired and the interest in becoming a police officer was so high that they raised the standards for people with Abitur.
It was not the same in the DDR and you can see in the shooting statistics after the East-West reunion that in east Germany guns were drawn far more often - even in the early 2000s still - especially in counties with a more middle service policemen.


Side note: German made Crime TV series with high production values and good writing (don't think NCIS, think Wallander and such) are highly popular among people over 45 ...and their children grow up to see police work as something interesting and beneficial to society that gives working purpose and meaning.


Second side note:
Of course people are shot a lot less in Germany, the perps rarely have guns themselves since we don't have cowboy gun laws like the US.

 

[jellies_two]

Violent crime is a massive problem in the US. Stop pretending like the US is devoid of crime. Does the UK and Europe have the high amount of violence the US does?

Violent crime is crime with guns. There is crime In uk and Germany as well but it usually lacks guns.

The magic ingredient is not a special level of crime, it is familiarity and access to handguns. Any angry anyone can source a handgun and the chances are 50:50 they already know how to use it.

The acid attacks in the uk recently would, in the USA, be gun violence.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Violent crime is a massive problem in the US. Stop pretending like the US is devoid of crime. Does the UK and Europe have the high amount of violence the US does?

Statistically I think violent crime in the UK is the highest in Europe. But the criminals don't have guns and the police here don't have guns.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Does Europe and the UK have even 1/10th of the violent crime the US does? Violent crime is a massive problem in the US and we should be ashamed we're not doing enough to combat it.

Wouldn't.... less guns mean less violence? Just a crazy thought.

 

[Hektor]

Does Europe and the UK have even 1/10th of the violent crime the US does? Violent crime is a massive problem in the US and we should be ashamed we're not doing enough to combat it.

Admitetly not, but we also don't sell guns in supermarkets, might been that these three factors are all related to each other.

 

[winjet81]

Here in Ontario, police have to file Use of Force reports any time they even draw a gun from their holster.

Not perfect by any means, but at least it's a deterrent from most knee-jerk first response actions.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Statistically I think violent crime in the UK is the highest in Europe. But the criminals don't have guns and the police here don't have guns.

Comparisons of crime statistics are always tricky, what with different classifications, report rates, all that.

Anyone looking for a not-shock might want to compare the chances of getting killed violently/murdered in Germany vs the US.

 

[Haunted]

This is what policing in a peaceful society looks like. Well-trained police with extensive psych evaluation. A culture that views diplomacy as the primary solution to problems. Lower rate of criminality, particularly violent crimes.

Issues in the US are varied and complex, and there's not a single fix to apply, but sure as shit - as long as "gun culture" exists and the NRA is as powerful as it is, things will never change for the better in the US.

 

[patapuf]

I'm not saying it's the only reason. It's obvious the cops in the states lack proper training, constant psych evaluations, being designed with the purpose of holding minorities down, the wrong people constantly being allowed in and an abhorrent culture. But you can't deny that the homogenous nature of other countries allow them to do things that won't be possible in the states because of the "other".

I'm not sure what the the measuring stick is for "homogenous" popluation but i'm pretty sure Germany has around 20% of foreigners and significant minority populations of Turks and eastern Europeans.

They don't shoot them, because shooting people is heavily discouraged. And the police is actually trained to deal with people without using their guns.

 

[Harmen]

Aren't these countries more homogeneous than the us so they aren't open season on minorities since there aren't as many as in the states?

Maybe the statistics of the countries taken as a whole, but it is not like the Germany, or most other EU nations for that matter, don't have large areas (provinces) that are incredibly diverse as well.

I think on top of racism, the US has several other problems significantly contributing to this: the population is allowed to have guns on a large scale, the cops have a poor selection procedure, the police education is brief and thus limited, and there seems to be barely any punishment for a cop shooting someone unjustfully.

 

[Coinspinner]

Drew guns 52 times, killed 11, injured 28.

TSK, TSK, TSK.

YOU MISSED THE BABY.

YOU MISSED THE BLIND MAN...

 

[sturgboski]

Yeah, that's insane. Surely with the way things are there now there needs to be some kind of governing or independent body who reviews the killings.

We can't even get them to turn on the damn body cams they are required to have and be active. What makes you think we can get them to report shootings.

 

[KHlover]

It's spellbinding how guns have only been unholstered 52 times in 2016.

I swear it seems it's every cops reflex in America to unholster their gun no matter how small the situation.

There's no small situation in the US, you have enough guns to arm literally every citizen in the country and police has to operate on the assumption that every traffic stop could turn into a shooting. You guys are fucked. Even if someone managed to push a complete ban of firearms through and confiscation of every gun in the country followed (lol) it would probably take an entire generation to normalize the relationship between cops and citizens.

On top of that cops are poorly trained. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Wouldn't.... less guns mean less violence? Just a crazy thought.

Nope, the more guns civilians have the less crime! If everyone is has a gun less people will try something because everyone has a gun so less people will try something because everyone has a gun so less people will try something because everyone has a gun…thus once we get complete saturation of everyone having a gun, crime will basically disappear! Basic American Exceptionalism + PEMDAS!

 

[Theonik]

Germany and Europe don't have US gun laws and culture warping police protocol.

That's a fairly reductionist view of the US's gun problem. Switzerland has a very high gun ownership but is still able to enact effective regulation and remain safe regardless of that fact. The example of the US is of a society that is rotten to its core at all levels. Early 20th century European Conservatives (and Fascists) used to cream at the situation in the US especially when it came to civil rights and policing!

 

[kirblar]

That's a fairly reductionist view of the US's gun problem. Switzerland has a very high gun ownership but is still able to enact effective regulation and remain safe regardless of that fact. The example of the US is of a society that is rotten to its core at all levels. Early 20th century European Conservatives (and Fascists) used to cream at the situation in the US especially when it came to civil rights and policing!

Did you just blow right past the word culture?

 

[MUnited83]

Additionally, guns have been used 28 times to merely hurt and stop other people

But but but Americans told me that's Hollywood stuff! How is this possible? :O

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

Germans must not value freedom then.

 

[peteykirch]

There's no small situation in the US, you have enough guns to arm literally every citizen in the country and police has to operate on the assumption that every traffic stop could turn into a shooting. You guys are fucked. Even if someone managed to push a complete ban of firearms through and confiscation of every gun in the country followed (lol) it would probably take an entire generation to normalize the relationship between cops and citizens.

On top of that cops are poorly trained. That's a recipe for disaster.

When cops are trained here to believe there is a 50/50 shot the person you are stopping will shoot and kill you, it really screws everything up with cops getting itchy trigger fingers.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

That's a fairly reductionist view of the US's gun problem. Switzerland has a very high gun ownership but is still able to enact effective regulation and remain safe regardless of that fact. The example of the US is of a society that is rotten to its core at all levels. Early 20th century European Conservatives (and Fascists) used to cream at the situation in the US especially when it came to civil rights and policing!

That gun ownership law would be rated as discriminating in the EU or the US.

Foreigners with the following citizenship are explicitly excluded from the right to possess weapons: Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania.

 

[Theonik]

Did you just blow right past the word culture?

This is why you use the Oxford Comma brah. Did you mean gun culture or US culture. It's the later not the former. US gun owners aren't exactly advocating people using guns to commit crime, so that doesn't really factor to policing!
Gun culture isn't really the core issue, gun laws might be more debatable, though, what changes police protocol is criminals having guns which they would even if that was a crime. (obv)

 

[Violet_0]

That gun ownership law would be rated as discriminating in the EU or the US.

huh, I had no idea they were specifically targeting certain nationalities

 

[kirblar]

This is why you use the Oxford Comma brah. Did you mean gun culture or US culture. It's the later not the former. US gun owners aren't exactly advocating people using guns to commit crime, so that doesn't really factor to policing!
Gun culture isn't really the core issue, gun laws might be more debatable, though, what changes police protocol is criminals having guns which they would even if that was a crime. (obv)

If you don't think US gun culture is part of the problem you don't u understand the US. The answer is "both".

 

[Maedre]

That's a fairly reductionist view of the US's gun problem. Switzerland has a very high gun ownership but is still able to enact effective regulation and remain safe regardless of that fact. The example of the US is of a society that is rotten to its core at all levels. Early 20th century European Conservatives (and Fascists) used to cream at the situation in the US especially when it came to civil rights and policing!

Our neighbors (Swiss) don’t really walk around with their weapons. They (the guns) are locked away.

 

[outsida]

HAHAH... Step your game up Germany!!!!

 

[Nightbird]

To be fair Germany is smaller population wise and Per Sq miles than USA.

Regardless there's clearly some issues with the police force in the US.

Even adjusted to US Population the US-Police still shot 20 times more people than the german police

 

[TylerDurden4321]

huh, I had no idea they were specifically targeting certain nationalities

it's super hard to get a gun ownership permit in Switzerland without a permanent residence permit anyway and you usually need to have lived there, continuously, for more than 10 years to get that permit.

 

[paperboywriter]

would have guessed a smaller number.

edit: yep, that number has been smaller in previous years.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Germany actually has a lot of privately owned guns. There's obviously much more regulation but despite what most people outside (and often even inside) germany think, citizens owning guns isn't that uncommon. Of course they are usually only used for hunting or sports shooting, and aren't supposed to be used for self defense, though that's perfectly legal if the situation justifies it.

Also even before the refugee crisis there were more than 9 million foreigners in the country. The low amount of shootings isn't caused by a lack of minorities.

As a german, I think it really it comes down to the fact that germany simply lacks Americas absurd gun "culture" or extreme fear of "Others". We have higher standards for police personnel too.

 

[Haunted]

Germans must not value freedom then.

Germany is 13th on the Human Freedom Index (USA not in the Top 20).


checkmate atheists

 

[paperboywriter]

Germany actually has a lot of privately owned guns. There's obviously much more regulation but despite what most people outside (and often even inside) germany think, citizens owning guns isn't that uncommon. Of course they are usually only used for hunting or sports shooting, and aren't supposed to be used for self defense, though that's perfectly legal if the situation justifies it.

Also even before the refugee crisis there were more than 9 million foreigners in the country. The low amount of shootings isn't caused by a lack of minorities.

As a german, I think it really it comes down to the fact that germany simply lacks Americas absurd gun "culture" or extreme fear of "Others". We have higher standards for police personnel too.

that's what america is lacking. In Germany, being a police officer is a respected profession that isn't even easy to get into. officers are trained properly and they get paid properly.
interacting with the police is a rather pleasant experience and not associated with fear.

How about you spent a billion less on defense and make sure your teachers and police are treated as they should?

 

[Haunted]

that's what america is lacking. In Germany, being a police officer is a respected profession that isn't even easy to get into. officers are trained properly and they get paid properly.
interacting with the police is a rather pleasant experience and not associated with fear.

How about you spent a billion less on defense and make sure your teachers and police are treated as they should?

bububu muh military!


Defense companies and the NRA are very powerful entities in the US, with deep pockets and excellent lobby connections at every level. When preventable and repeated mass killings of childrens, innocents and civilians are a generally accepted part of your society, don't expect things to change anytime soon.

 

[Kill3r7]

Even adjusted to US Population the US-Police still shot 20 times more people than the german police

The counterpoint to that is that the US has significantly more murders than Germany. Chicago or Baltimore in a typical year would give them a run for their money. Not exactly comparing apples to apples. That said, our police are too trigger happy, poorly trained and by and large do very little policing. They focus too much on quotas and metrics.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Still too much....but obv. miles better than the shit show US cops are producing every year.

 

[Theonik]

Germany is 13th on the Human Freedom Index (USA not in the Top 20). checkmate atheists

*Muffled sound of Rule Britannia heard in the background*

Our neighbors (Swiss) don’t really walk around with their weapons. They (the guns) are locked away.

That's not really the problem here. US police is poorly trained and largely unaccountable. Most police in civilised nations is trusted, and produces much more favourable outcomes but that respect comes from police being effective. (as a result of greater accountability and training)

 

[oti]

That's a lot.

 

[ViviOggi]

Obligatory
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PNjG22Gbo6U

7

 

[Deepwater]

Germany policing wasn't rooted in hunting down enslaved peoples that might have something to do with it

 

[DonShula]

Germany has several million migrants now and they are more obviously a "minority" than the large Hispanic and black populatoon in America

I think it has little to do with minorities or immigrants and everything to do with Gun Culture. Guns are common ammunition is common people with guns are common and police are jumpy.

It being my first thought was more my reflection on America right now than anything else. When we have a police shooting, anymore the first question is whether the officer and victim were different races, because they seem to be so often now.

 

[dumbo]

That's not really the problem here. US police is poorly trained and largely unaccountable. Most police in civilised nations is trusted, and produces much more favourable outcomes but that respect comes from police being effective. (as a result of greater accountability and training)

The 'accountability' question is basically: "Did the police officer have reason to believe that the victim had a deadly weapon?". If the answer to that question is 'yes', then there is very little accountability for the police in any country.

In the UK officers have shot several unarmed people, but were able to show that they had reason to believe that the victim was armed. A man mistaken for a suicide bomber, a man carrying a chair leg that was mistaken for a shotgun, the shooting of Mark Duggan etc.

The US police have a lack of accountability because the question doesn't work - US police officers have a reason to believe that everyone they encounter is in possession of a deadly weapon.

 

[BannedEpisode]

When I was in Cologne this past May there was a shouting match that broke out on the train.

At my stop I ran to the front of the train and told the conductor. As we were walking away, not 5 minutes later 4 police cars were there and de-escalating.

I was very impressed at the response time.

 

[paperboywriter]

The 'accountability' question is basically: "Did the police officer have reason to believe that the victim had a deadly weapon?". If the answer to that question is 'yes', then there is very little accountability for the police in any country.

In the UK officers have shot several unarmed people, but were able to show that they had reason to believe that the victim was armed. A man mistaken for a suicide bomber, a man carrying a chair leg that was mistaken for a shotgun, the shooting of Mark Duggan etc.

The US police have a lack of accountability because the question doesn't work - US police officers have a reason to believe that everyone they encounter is in possession of a deadly weapon.

there are solutions for this problem -.-

 

[Theonik]

The US police have a lack of accountability because the question doesn't work - US police officers have a reason to believe that everyone they encounter is in possession of a deadly weapon.

No it's because jury has the tendency to always acquit especially if the victim is a person of colour. There is approximately 31 guns per 100 people in Germany. US is considerably higher with 115 guns per 100 people but 50% of those guns are owned by just 3% of the total population of the US.
Source 1 Source 2 Mind these are only estimates!

 

[Maedre]

No it's because jury has the tendency to always acquit especially if the victim is a person of colour. There is approximately 31 guns per 100 people in Germany. US is considerably higher with 115 guns per 100 people but 50% of those guns are owned by just 3% of the total population of the US.
Source 1 Source 2 Mind these are only estimates!

And how many oh these 31/100 guns per people are owned by how much % of people in Germany?

I do not know a single person that ownes or owned a gun.

 

[RangerX]

Why is that unusual. It's quite normal for police not to shoot lots of people in Europe.

 

[Theonik]

And how many oh these 31/100 guns per people are owned by how much % of people in Germany?

I do not know a single person that ownes or owned a gun.

~2m gun owners with 5.5m guns plus an estimated 20m illegal firearms per the police union. (fourth largest legal gun owneship in the world per capita)
So... A lot. What's more important here is that the police itself reckons about a quarter of the population is in possession of a firearm. So yeah..

 

[Agent Gibbs]

how many countries totals of Cop Shootings does it take to add up to the same number in the US? do we need to start taking multiple year together?

People can and have rioted in the Uk over (justified) Police shootings and yet in the US its par the course and the public defend it

 

[JustenP88]

I can't rationalize the blind love for law enforcement that american "small-government" conservatives have unless I just assume there's no such thing as a "small-government" conservative.

When the response to statistics like our world-leading prison population and the obscene number of civilians killed by police is either "so what?" Or "You hate police!", it really drives home the idea that this is more of a feature than a bug. Just the system working as intended. Land of the free, y'all.

 

[Khaz]

ordinary citizens don't own fireweapons, hence they don't have to be constantly paranoid or use their own guns to defend themselves
criminality is way lower in nearly all of Europe
there's a lot more trust between the general popuation and the police force

Then again, these ordinary citizens are responsible citizens, who carry legally owned weapons. Following the NRA logic, why would a cop be afraid of an upstanding carrying citizen? They should be only afraid of criminals carrying weapons, which also exist in Europe and are approached with the same lack of knowledge about potentially hidden weapons.

Most of the recent scandals are about citizens minding their own business being shot for no real reason. Weapon discipline is a real problem for US cops, regardless of their target.