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[lednerg]

Good example of whataboutism there.

You're right. Maybe I should post the scene from Caddyshack. More subtle.

Spoiler

OP is whataboutism

 

[SkeptiMism]

I don't get the fervent defense right off the bat. The second post in the thread, is immediate deflection. There are assaults and rapes occurring in these countries due to an influx of Middle Eastern and North African migrants. This is a fact.

How is the second post a deflection? The amount of people doing these is still a minority of the total amount of asylum seekers.

To say that is different than saying that there are no problems in their cultures (which nobody's saying).

 

[Doczu]

You're right. Maybe I should post the scene from Caddyshack. More subtle.

Spoiler

OP is whataboutism

You play the same game right-wingers are generally accused off. Stop it.

 

[lednerg]

You play the same game right-wingers are generally accused off. Stop it.

I'm just playing, now. This topic is done as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: DerZuhälter gets it

 

[DerZuhälter]

Call me an apologist if you want to.
Personally I think a lot of the countries with these problems are not doing enough to properly integrate migrants. This is true for a lot of the generations that came before them, and is now even worse.

But that doesn't change the fact, that a small percentage of migrants and refugees make the majority look bad.
The problem we are facing now is that media is of course interested in spreading these worst kind of news immaginable to attract interest. Never forget: Media is business, and business is especially good when click-rates are good.
Problem is, these worst apples imaginable doing this horrid stuff are fueling the entire discussion about migration, asylum and the refugee crisis and effect thousands of law abiding migrants and asylum seekers. Political refugees, academics, grocers, construction workers, plumbers, familymen, women and children, who have nothing to do with this groce shit happening in Cologne or your local swimming baths.

Go ahead call me an apologists for reminding you about this.
Nothing wrong about calling a spade a spade. Enforce a 1-strike policy. You fuck up, you have to leave again. I have no problem with that as long as you properly educate them about what's legal and what isn't. Let's just assume nobody knows what is illegal or not, even if this shouldn't be the case.

This isn't some Sherlock level deduction shit, and yet I feel that everytime I see a news about immigrants and refugees fucking up, these widespread generalizations, about what to do with ALL of them.

 

[Dennis]

I'm more concerned about the whole 'Young men try to forcibly gain access into women’s and girls’ changing rooms'.

That does seem a lot more worrying.

Though I do wonder if the migrants are shitting the pool out of spite because I can't see how hard it is to just not shit the pool if you are told it isn't allowed.

 

[SolidusDave]

Nobody is defending the douchebags.

I think they should have a no tolerance policy (also for normal citizens) but banning everybody with a migrant background is ridiculous.

In Europe that means banning everybody that is not white, quite a slippery slope.

Then again we don't know the ins and outs of this particular situation. Maybe the local law enforcement is dysfunctional or something.

I'm pretty sure the bans are based on the asylum status papers of male refugees. They won't put up a sign "no brown people" or ask everyone to show them their passport.
With the papers refugees get free access to stuff like transportation and these swimming baths, they simply stop letting them in for free and that's effectively a ban as most won't or can't pay.
But even that isn't legal so currently these bans are quickly lifted (and announced so beforehand) and are supposed to be a message for the whole local refugee centers.

Maybe this should be issued for kids only anyway / restricted to swimming classes. It's a luxury unlike transportation and it's not like many of the women will go... (who should be encouraged as that's probably the fastest way to have the men behave more respectfully)

 

[bengraven]

This is what happens when you sexualize a wrist or ankle.

That said, have they at least posted warnings? Had someone there to give them the rules? I'm assuming they have to sign in to places like this? Isn't there someone there to be like "Hey, don't shit in the pool and don't sneak into the kiddie locker room" at the front desk?

 

[Dennis]

This is what happens when you sexualize a wrist or ankle.

You take a dump?

 

[Chittagong]

Jesus Christ have you read anything at all in this thread? How many incidents were there? I see here maybe 3 incidents, which are totally different. And you think you can deduce something out of that? Out of 3 reports, when we are talking about MILLIONS of migrants? This is fearmongering, borderline racist bullshit. Period. And this whole thing about "immigrants forcing their way into women's locker" ist very likely just made up racist bullshit, there are no police reports about any such incident.

Made up racist bullshit? You are in some pretty serious denial man. Do yourself a favour, go to news.google.com, search for "swimming pool refugees" and count the number of incidents and countries, and feel free to leave out sources you don't consider legit. Report back if you found more than three reports!

 

[Doczu]

This is what happens when you sexualize a wrist or ankle.

That said, have they at least posted warnings? Had someone there to give them the rules? I'm assuming they have to sign in to places like this? Isn't there someone there to be like "Hey, don't shit in the pool and don't sneak into the kiddie locker room" at the front desk?

So it'll ve ok if i go to a swimming pool, take a dump in the jacuzzi,cum over it just because i wasn't told what to do?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

That does seem a lot more worrying.

Though I do wonder if the migrants are shitting the pool out of spite because I can't see how hard it is to just not shit the pool if you are told it isn't allowed.

Again: They would be obliged to report any such incidents to the police. A city spokesman said, there haven't been any crimes. This is very likely just a made-up story. There is no evidence at all that this happened.

Also wtf at you making up theories about what happened. Very telling. Here is what really happened:

http://www.mdr.de/sachsen/chemnitz/vorfaelle-in-zwickauer-baedern-100.html

There have been German kids and migrant kids in the nonswimmer pool. It is not clear who was responsible for the pollution, the police is investigating. A swimming teacher said this happened before with other kids, but of course she didn't go to the press, because they would laugh at her. She also said that now when a migrant kid is under suspicion, this is suddenly all over the press.

Made up racist bullshit? You are in some pretty serious denial man. Do yourself a favour, go to news.google.com, search for "swimming pool refugees" and count the number of incidents and countries, and feel free to leave out sources you don't consider legit. Report back if you found more than three reports!

I actually did this right now, and I haven't found much more than 3 incidents. Where are those countless reports you are talking about? Your agenda is so transparent.

 

[boiled goose]

So it'll ve ok if i go to a swimming pool, take a dump in the jacuzzi,cum over it just because i wasn't told what to do?

If you take a dump in a pool you should get kicked out and banned.

If you get kicked out and banned because someone that looks like you took a dump, well then that is bigotry.

I can be both against taking dumps on Pools AND against bigotry. They are two separate issues.

 

[Tesseract]

aren't germans into that sorta thing

ba dum tsh

 

[DerZuhälter]

Gonna laugh my ass of if it turns out that a fucking baby took a dump into the baby pool by accident.

 

[entremet]

There is a golden mean here.

It's sad that extremist views are overrepresented. You can be for helping the refugees, but also critical on how Merkel and company have handled this integration, which has been a disaster so far, with a poor long term thinking involved it seems.

The fact that crisis has benefited mostly abled bodied young men, who could make the long trek, is a demographic disaster.

Cultures throughout history have always been aware of the possible unrest of young, unemployed, single men. I can't believe the EU didn't think about.

Yes, Western nations are progressive and we've gone through our cultural movements, but it's naive to expect other countries have gone through the same cultural shifts.

 

[SolidusDave]

Call me an apologist if you want to.
Personally I think a lot of the countries with these problems are not doing enough to properly integrate migrants. This is true for a lot of the generations that came before them, and is now even worse.

But that doesn't change the fact, that a small percentage of migrants and refugees make the majority look bad.
The problem we are facing now is that media is of course interested in spreading these worst kind of news immaginable to attract interest. Never forget: Media is business, and business is especially good when click-rates are good.
Problem is, these worst apples imaginable doing this horrid stuff are fueling the entire discussion about migration, asylum and the refugee crisis and effect thousands of law abiding migrants and asylum seekers. Political refugees, academics, grocers, construction workers, plumbers, familymen, women and children, who have nothing to do with this groce shit happening in Cologne or your local swimming baths.

Go ahead call me an apologists for reminding you about this.
Nothing wrong about calling a spade a spade. Enforce a 1-strike policy. You fuck up, you have to leave again. I have no problem with that as long as you properly educate them about what's legal and what isn't. Let's just assume nobody knows what is illegal or not, even if this shouldn't be the case.

This isn't some Sherlock level deduction shit, and yet I feel that everytime I see a news about immigrants and refugees fucking up, these widespread generalizations, about what to do with ALL of them.

You should maybe not generalize the media like that, as you have obviously left and right focused media that will cater to their respective ideology and their audience. Though if I'm cynical I would say that the NYE incident opened up the public to be receptive for anti-immigrant topics and the media and politicians promptly got more vocal about it.

TBH these discussions have to be open. As you said, few bad apples and calling a spade a spade. Though it seems we still are afraid of pointing out specific demographics as a potential threat/problem that has to be solved. Refugees are not a homogeneous mass. A report by the Düsseldorf police shows that 40% of all refugees that committed another crime within a year were from North-Africa (not necessarily sexual related as it's mostly theft: up to 70% of all thefts in the city have North-African refugee suspects).
They are virtually all economic refugees so they won't get asylum but they still create this criminal problem because our systems fail to handle them efficiently (taking too long to process, only actually deport a dozen of them or so per year etc.). In previous reports these groups were left out as they make up only a small fraction of the total refugee number, so it was published that refugees have no higher crime rates than the Germans (which is indeed true for Syrians etc.).

 

[Ghost]

If you took a million people from anywhere in the world you would have these same problems. I think about 8% of the US population (just for example) have a felony, so if you took a million people from the US, 80,000 of them would be convicted criminals. So I think even the most optimistic estimate would say that tens of thousands of these immigrants will commit a crime.

Of course that means you've also got 900,000 new citizens who are probably pretty cool, so I think we need to get over this 'It's the migrants' thing really quickly, this isn't cultural, it's not an adjustment period, these are people just like the rest of us, and just like us, some of them are bad people.

 

[Sub_Level]

They are going to be deported if caught, right?

That seems the most logical course of action. They are punished as individuals without punishing an entire group and you don't keep them in your overpopulated refugee centers.

 

[DerZuhälter]

You should maybe not generalize the media like that, as you have obviously left and right focused media that will cater to their respective ideology and their audience. Though if I'm cynical I would say that the NYE incident opened up the public to be receptive for anti-immigrant topics and the media and politicians promptly got more vocal about it.

Yes, yes you should if we are talking about the online space, of the so often quoted, by Breitbart translated, BILD. But even SZ, Welt, Spiegel or whatever had a feast with Cologne. Even with no "new" information they were churring out articles. Wether it's the main editors, op-ed, blogstyle "Stammtisch" piece, everybody and his nan started writing their asses off. Sure not everybody pulling the string in the same directions but everybody kept it in focus. It was a slow first news week to be honest.

TBH these discussions have to be open. As you said, few bad apples and calling a spade a spade. Though it seems we still are afraid of pointing out specific demographics as a potential threat/problem that has to be solved. Refugees are not a homogeneous mass. A report by the Düsseldorf police shows that 40% of all refugees that committed another crime within a year were from North-Africa (not necessarily sexual related as it's mostly theft: up to 70% of all thefts in the city have North-African refugee suspects).
They are virtually all economic refugees so they won't get asylum but they still create this criminal problem because our systems fail to handle them efficiently (taking too long to process, only actually deport a dozen of them or so per year etc.). In previous reports these groups were left out as they make up only a small fraction of the total refugee number, so it was published that refugees have no higher crime rates than the Germans (which is indeed true for Syrians etc.).

That article is a load of bullcrap. Seriously? I live in Düsseldorf. They just recently (the weekend before this one), had the new so called "maghreb" area at Ellerstraße on lockdown. 300 cops checked 12 stores/bars and 220 people and only made a single arrest. They found some small amount of drugs and the arrested guy was a refugee with 2 warrants. Basically nothing came out of this big touted operation "Casablanca".

But there are some openly visible and known organized crime syndicates, operating in all big cities in Germany. Biker gangs, albanian, arab and turkish gangs calling in protection money, having the club bouncer scene and brothels under their controll. Weapons, drugs, human trafficing. The shit you know from TV shows and movies.
Known to the police yet completely ignored by them. A far more bigger danger, than some pickpockets and bike thieves from Morroco, who are mostly tracked in these stats. But sure. They are the big danger to society.

 

[Omegasquash]

There is a golden mean here.

It's sad that extremist views are overrepresented. You can be for helping the refugees, but also critical on how Merkel and company have handled this integration, which has been a disaster so far, with a poor long term thinking involved it seems.

The fact that crisis has benefited mostly abled bodied young men, who could make the long trek, is a demographic disaster.

Cultures throughout history have always been aware of the possible unrest of young, unemployed, single men. I can't believe the EU didn't think about.

Yes, Western nations are progressive and we've gone through our cultural movements, but it's naive to expect other countries have gone through the same cultural shifts.

To the bolded...this seems to be letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Knee-jerk, broad actions against a group of people that are being misrepresented is, well, shitty.

I'd also submit (I have no factual basis on this), that it's not something that hasn't taken place before, by citizens. I have a feeling that these stories about criminal actions by migrants are being highlighted just to try to build a case, or at least make it look like there's a case to build.

 

[d00d3n]

Call me an apologist if you want to.
Personally I think a lot of the countries with these problems are not doing enough to properly integrate migrants. This is true for a lot of the generations that came before them, and is now even worse.

But that doesn't change the fact, that a small percentage of migrants and refugees make the majority look bad.
The problem we are facing now is that media is of course interested in spreading these worst kind of news immaginable to attract interest. Never forget: Media is business, and business is especially good when click-rates are good.
Problem is, these worst apples imaginable doing this horrid stuff are fueling the entire discussion about migration, asylum and the refugee crisis and effect thousands of law abiding migrants and asylum seekers. Political refugees, academics, grocers, construction workers, plumbers, familymen, women and children, who have nothing to do with this groce shit happening in Cologne or your local swimming baths.

Go ahead call me an apologists for reminding you about this.
Nothing wrong about calling a spade a spade. Enforce a 1-strike policy. You fuck up, you have to leave again. I have no problem with that as long as you properly educate them about what's legal and what isn't. Let's just assume nobody knows what is illegal or not, even if this shouldn't be the case.

This isn't some Sherlock level deduction shit, and yet I feel that everytime I see a news about immigrants and refugees fucking up, these widespread generalizations, about what to do with ALL of them.

Well, to give an example, Swedish media had a good run avoiding spreading these kind of news. A couple of years later, a lot of people have replaced ordinary media channels with various extreme right blogs, web pages and social media accounts. Trust in mainstream media is at an all-time low. Is this what you want?

 

[michaelius]

Well that's the thing. They're not coming in as migrants, they're coming in as refugees. As in people who have fled their country through imminent and real fear of death. You read about something anti-social that a refugee has done and you think well they should be deported. The question is to where. Back home? That's death and you as a state have acknowledged this by granting them refugee status in the first place. The death penalty for shitting in a pool? Seems harsh. Moreover it seems vastly unjust.

States are in a bind there.

Even EU commissars finally admitted that 60% of them aren't refugees

https://euobserver.com/migration/132006

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

"THEY TRIED TO SHIT IN THE POOLS!!!!!


...and oh yeah, incidentally they tried to storm the women's locker rooms but what ever"


lol

 

[Kenshin001]

If you took a million people from anywhere in the world you would have these same problems. I think about 8% of the US population (just for example) have a felony, so if you took a million people from the US, 80,000 of them would be convicted criminals. So I think even the most optimistic estimate would say that tens of thousands of these immigrants will commit a crime.

Of course that means you've also got 900,000 new citizens who are probably pretty cool, so I think we need to get over this 'It's the migrants' thing really quickly, this isn't cultural, it's not an adjustment period, these are people just like the rest of us, and just like us, some of them are bad people.

There are far more than a million people in Germany but they didn't have those problems. Even if you are talking about importing a million people I don't think it's the case. I can't imagine Japanese people shitting in the pool for example or trying to forcibly enter the women's change rooms. I read a story recently where Swedish police were trying to extract a 10 yo boy who had been repeatedly raped and were attacked by angry migrants. I assume they were Afghans because child rape is part of their culture.

 

[Ghost]

There are far more than a million people in Germany but they didn't have those problems. Even if you are talking about importing a million people I don't think it's the case. I can't imagine Japanese people shitting in the pool for example or trying to forcibly enter the women's change rooms. I read a story recently where Swedish police were trying to extract a 10 yo boy who had been repeatedly raped and were attacked by angry migrants. I assume they were Afghans because child rape is part of their culture.

Around 6 million crimes are committed a year in Germany, 16,000 a day. They ABSOLUTELY have these problems anyway. There's more crime now, not because of where the migrants are from, but because there were 1,500,000 of them in 2015. Population goes up, incidents of crime go up, that's inevitable.

It's very dangerous to assume what you read about is all that happens in a country, especially one you don't live in. Terrible crimes are happening every single day in Germany (as well as everywhere else), you're learning about this one purely because it was committed by migrants and that makes it bigger news.

 

[boiled goose]

"THEY TRIED TO SHIT IN THE POOLS!!!!!


...and oh yeah, incidentally they tried to storm the women's locker rooms but what ever"


lol

"They"...

The problem right here.

 

[quackamole]

Why is Western Media framing migrants like they are uncivilised animals and savages? They know what swimming pools, hygine and common decency are. All of these things exist in Syria. It's not some blank desert wasteland like the Planet Tatooine.

Refugees, not migrant. Also if you go back yo six months ago most western media were all pro refugees. Six months and a whole lot of NYE crimes later here we are.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Kind of shitty thing to do.

Was that intentional?

Also that's really disgusting...if you accidentally shit your bathing suite fine, but intentionally doing it? And masturbating? How do people even do public masturbation and not feel ashamed? I feel ashamed if I do it in private >_>

 

[Crash Station]

BBC's headline is like so:

Cologne attacks: Migrant men banned from German swimming pool
A German town has banned male asylum seekers from a public swimming pool after women complained of harassment.​

Look at the dates and location. Different incident.

But as I said, a mod is free to lock this thread. I was led to believe BILD was credible, but I was wrong.

 

[ClosingADoor]

"They"...

The problem right here.

"They" is a perfectly fine word to refer to the people doing these acts. Should we replace the word with "The people mentioned in the article" to avoid confusion?

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

"They"...

The problem right here.

I'm sorry for causing all the discrimination against migrants in europe with my pronoun choice in my post pointing out the article's odd prioritizing of offenses.

 

[Super_Cobra]

Sometimes I hate how liberal GAF can be. I'm no where near conservative or anything but Germany fucked up by letting way too many people go in. They should of just taken women, kids and old people. The young and strong guys could of stayed.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Sometimes I hate how liberal GAF can be. I'm no where near conservative or anything but Germany fucked up by letting way too many people go in. They should of just taken women, kids and old people. The young and strong guys could of stayed.

Well they can't do that cause of the Dublin act.

The geography of the EU coupled with the policies it has taken have made sure that refugees must take the most dangerous rout possible. Thus ensuring that kids and women and old people stay.

 

[Munin]

How is the second post a deflection? The amount of people doing these is still a minority of the total amount of asylum seekers.

To say that is different than saying that there are no problems in their cultures (which nobody's saying).

The "just a minority" argument is irrelevant semantics. Guess what, a "minority" in a massive, crazy amount of people is still a lot of fucking people

 

[boiled goose]

I'm sorry for causing all the discrimination against migrants in europe with my pronoun choice in my post pointing out the article's odd prioritizing of offenses.

Did I accuse you of that? Nah.

Hey if you were quoting the article then clearly it's a quote. The choice of "they" clearly refers to what, too separate groups of criminals or perverts? Doubtful...

Sometimes I hate how liberal GAF can be. I'm no where near conservative or anything but Germany fucked up by letting way too many people go in. They should of just taken women, kids and old people. The young and strong guys could of stayed.

My oh my... at first I was like ok. Sure we could have a nuanced discussion that maybe better screenings should be done and better integration should be implemented. Sure...

Then you propose we discriminate by age and gender... wtf. Discriminate by criminal or terrible vs not. All these shorthands "race gender age country of origin immigrants religion" are fundamentally unfair, immoral, bigoted.

 

[gutter_trash]

Canada did it right, no single men.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The "just a minority" argument is irrelevant semantics. Guess what, a "minority" in a massive, crazy amount of people is still a lot of fucking people

The thing I read from posters (like you) is that there is a problem, but I seldom see any ideas how we should deal with the current situation that is based in reality.
I have posted articles in other threads written by people who work with just this kind of shit and how we best can combat it.

People keep talking about culture while ignoring that it is patriarchal culture that is the problem.
Me and mine are talking about that we need deal with ALL sexual violence regardless of the perpetrators background.
If the discussion was framed that way I think we would all pull in the same direction.

Poster talk about whataboutism but this isn't that.
We recognize that there are huge problems regarding how women are treated in some parts of the world.
We also recognize that there are people who are working with said problems from a base of facts and knowledge.
But we also recognize that it isn't just about "them" over there, it is about us.


*steps down from soapbox*

 

[ClosingADoor]

Then you propose we discriminate by age and gender... wtf. Discriminate by criminal or terrible vs not. All these shorthands "race gender age country of origin immigrants religion" are fundamentally unfair, immoral, bigoted.

How is taking in the most vulnerable first and helping them discrimination?

That is something that is done all the time, and for good reason.

 

[RustyNails]

Look at the dates and location. Different incident.

But as I said, a mod is free to lock this thread. I was led to believe BILD was credible, but I was wrong.

Ban OP

Spoiler

from swimming pools

 

[Kalamari]

Can't even drop the kids off at the pool?

Bravo!

 

[boiled goose]

How is taking in the most vulnerable first and helping them discrimination?

That is something that is done all the time, and for good reason.

A fair point.

Im ok with some type of initial screen. Id just be opposed to an absolute ban based on those criteria.

 

[spekkeh]

Canada did it right, no single men.

Yes, but, Canada had a choice.