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[ClosingADoor]

I'm completely clueless about politics in the Netherlands. Do right-wing parties have a history of improving the lives of homeless and elderly there?

We have the PVV (Freedom Party) that is socially very much on the left, with a lot of concern about the elderly. They are also the main anti-immigration party. They have not really been in government ever, outside of some strange agreement that they would support the minority cabinet a few years back, which they blew up after a while leading to new elections.

Don't really like them myself that much honestly.

 

[Moral Panic]

A universal quota system is what Germany, Sweden and other nations are proposing anyway, no one likes the current situation. The problem is the UK and other countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, who would rather we close the borders and take in no more than a few thousand at most. That's not a "fair quota". A fair quota would mean accepting millions. I somewhat doubt that's what you had in mind, but anything else would put incredible strain on Syria's neighbors and lead to a humanitarian disaster in the refugee camps. You can't just pay for the problem to go away. Turkey can't keep millions housed in tent cities forever.

The confusing thing about this debate is that the people opposed to accepting huge numbers of refugees still insist on the universal approach, which is pushed in the EU by countries currently accepting huge numbers of refugees while it is opposed by countries said people otherwise agree with, the countries opposed to accepting huge numbers of refugees. I can only conclude you don't really understand what "fair quotas" in this context means. If you did you wouldn't spend so much time complaining about them "picking and choosing" because I honestly can't imagine anyone in favor of accepting even more refugees would actually be so upset about that completely irrelevant aspect of this.

Universal quota of what? Why would a fair quota mean taking millions? The entire point of the refugee system is that it places burden on the neighbours, this is not a new fact that sprung up out of nowhere. When you sign the UN refugee stuff you agree that if your neighbours get into trouble you will take them in. So it is right and normal that the vast majority of the strain should be borne by the neighbouring countries and then we can assist with any extreme overflow. But when I read online of

Nour and her mother, Islam, fled Deir al-Zour in Syria three years ago.

For two years in Istanbul, she enjoyed a comfortable life. Nour found work in a hair transplant salon, and later with Turkish state TV. She learnt Turkish, went horse-riding and dyed her hair blonde for the summer.

But she wanted to start a new life away from the region. She aimed to make it to the Swedish city of Gothenburg where her brother lives with his young family. There, she would apply for political asylum.

In March I took a bus to Lebanon, then a plane from Lebanon to Turkey. I stayed in Turkey for three months, but that was hopeless. I found a job but the boss wouldn’t pay me. Then I got another job in a jeans factory, where at least they gave me something, but only half the salary of my Turkish colleagues, and it wasn’t really enough to live on.
....

We had to avoid towns so we wouldn’t be caught by the police, and instead walked through farmland in Serbia and Hungary. I was with some other refugees when we met a smuggler who said he would take us to Austria by car, but instead he drove us to the border of Hungary and never came back. In Hungary the police caught us and put us on a train. When it stopped at a station they were taking everyone off, and in the rush I managed to escape and jump on another train that was going to Budapest. I was very lucky but I lost my bag. From there I got trains to France. When a ticket collector started asking for passports I hid in the toilets.

Then how can one really say that these people are escaping anything other than poverty?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

what exactly is rational about taking in thousands of undereducated refugees, most of whom aren't even fleeing from war, who will have a hard time in europe and probably won't be a net benefit to society? and how is it undemocratic when most people don't want more refugees?

if anything the bleeding heart narrative is much more similar to belly-feels.

I was agreeing with him.

 

[Nivash]

and this standard procedure is carried through with? and applied?

Honestly do you have anything to back this up with? Not necessarily with this current migration even, but with fairly recent previous migrations. Such as the Balkans wars. Did any of them return? because if they didn't I can't see anyone from sub Saharan Africa being sent back, ever.

People are being "repatriated" all the time after their applications are denied. Why do you think countries would even bother with an application process if it's actually meaningless? What happens is police escort them to the airport, puts them in an economy seat and sends them on their way. Easy as that.

They aren't picky either - if there's any chance a person can be repatriated (which is pretty much always, with an exception being a very small number of people no country will accept) they will repatriate them. I've personally seen a man who's application was denied who was being examined for a lung disease. Once Tubercolosis was ruled out the immigration police determined him "fit for travel" despite the fact that he could barely breathe (fit for travel essentially just means you'll survive the journey) and sent him off to whatever east African country he was from. We figured he probably had late stage lung cancer but weren't allowed to investigate it further. I doubt he even survived a week in whatever country he ended up in.

Universal quota of what? Why would a fair quota mean taking millions? The entire point of the refugee system is that it places burden on the neighbours, this is not a new fact that sprung up out of nowhere. When you sign the UN refugee stuff you agree that if your neighbours get into trouble you will take them in. So it is right and normal that the vast majority of the strain should be borne by the neighbouring countries and then we can assist with any extreme overflow.

Universal quota as in you apply for asylum in the EU rather than in a specific member country and the EU then decides which country will take you in. It's the only solution that allows the Schengen treaty to remain in place and what the EU has been discussing all week.

It's only fair that the EU, population 500 million and largest economy in the world, take a greater responsibility for this disaster than the neighboring nations that are much smaller and much poorer. And no, the UN refugee treaty is not limited to just neighbors, it states that every country has a responsibility grant asylum to anyone who fulfill the requirements for it. And even your "extreme overflow", which is causing the problems in the quoted stories in your post - because Turkey and Lebanon can't possibly take in millions on their own and grant them any kind of future - will be in the millions because there are millions of refugees. 4 million have already fled. Another 8 million could leave Syria at any moment. This is reality.

 

[daniels]

A universal quota system is what Germany, Sweden and other nations are proposing anyway, no one likes the current situation. The problem is the UK and other countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, who would rather we close the borders and take in no more than a few thousand at most. That's not a "fair quota". A fair quota would mean accepting millions. I somewhat doubt that's what you had in mind, but anything else would put incredible strain on Syria's neighbors and lead to a humanitarian disaster in the refugee camps. You can't just pay for the problem to go away. Turkey can't keep millions housed in tent cities forever.

If you go back a couple of pages you see i specifically called out the UK and also said several times a fair quota is needed to the point that the crisis is over or the EU simply cant take anymore and if that should ever happen close off EU and help locally but try continue to take refugees in the numbers that is still manageable.

 

[jakonovski]

Well where will the refused people who don't have papers be sent?

Uhh, I wasn't arguing against you. What the dude originally said was that most rejects disappear into the system and never leave. That's not the same as what you said.

 

[ClosingADoor]

People are being "repatriated" all the time after their applications are denied. Why do you think countries would even bother with an application process if it's actually meaningless? What happens is police escort them to the airport, puts them in an economy seat and sends them on their way. Easy as that.

This very much depends on the country and how it is handled. Like I said in a previous post, over here about a third of people stay illegally.

 

[Nivash]

If you go back a couple of pages you see i specifically called out the UK and also said several times a fair quota is needed to the point that the crisis is over or the EU simply cant take anymore and if that should ever happen close off EU and help locally but try continue to take refugees in the numbers that is still manageable.

Good that we're on the same page then. Would be nice if we could bring the countries in the EU fighting this tooth and nail in on it too.

Well where will the refused people who don't have papers be sent?

They have to state at some point during the application process which country they're from because that's the basis of why they're applying for asylum in the first place, just repatriate them to the country they said they were from.

 

[KDR_11k]

Universal quota of what? Why would a fair quota mean taking millions? The entire point of the refugee system is that it places burden on the neighbours, this is not a new fact that sprung up out of nowhere. When you sign the UN refugee stuff you agree that if your neighbours get into trouble you will take them in. So it is right and normal that the vast majority of the strain should be borne by the neighbouring countries and then we can assist with any extreme overflow. But when I read online of





Then how can one really say that these people are escaping anything other than poverty?

Did anyone here say that specifically these two people are war refugees? There's gonna be assholes taking advantage of any problem, if we refuse to help those in need because some people are taking advantage of that then we can abolish practically anything short of a total police state. That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater and often it's an argument brought up by people who hate the baby but don't want to admit it. Like politicians whining about welfare queens and wanting to punish the entire lower class of the country for the misbehavior of a few. They don't actually care about the abuse specifically, they want to abolish the social system regardless of any abuse.

The solution to a few bad people in a mass of people is to police and punish those specific malcontents, not to punish the whole for the acts of a few.

 

[shaki123]

In the long run the USA has something to do with it as well. Unfortunately only Russia seems to be thinking clearly. If the US didn't invade the Middle East, Syria would have been peaceful. Now we, Europe have to clean up their mess? If the US had minded it's own business (why would they tough, they are the big fat America) all this shit wouldn't have happened. They have made it all worse, and this is the result. Where is the US now?

Thanks America.

 

[dapperbandit]

Hmm, we'll see. There's a referendum in the UK before 2017. I used to think 'remain' was a sure thing, but now I'm not so sure.

Yes, while the current migrant crisis hasn't really had much impact on the UK yet, I think concern about it intensifying between now and then and the EU's reaction will impact the public's decision.

Like Libya for that matter. Now we, Europe have to clean up their mess?

Thanks America.

Uh, Europe intervened in Libya. Maybe not Holland, but certainly UK and France.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In the long run the USA has something to do with it as well. Unfortunately only Russia seems to be thinking clearly. If the US didn't invade the Middle East, Syria would have been peaceful. Like Libya for that matter. Now we, Europe have to clean up their mess?

Thanks America.

Libya was more of an EU thing also, with multiple countries pushing for it. Can't really blame the US for that one.

 

[paradise_circus]

In the long run the USA has something to do with it as well. Unfortunately only Russia seems to be thinking clearly. If the US didn't invade the Middle East, Syria would have been peaceful. Like Libya for that matter. Now we, Europe have to clean up their mess?

Thanks America.

Russia is actively supporting the regime which began to shoot its citizens years before ISIS.

 

[shaki123]

Yes, while the current migrant crisis hasn't really had much impact on the UK yet, I think concern about it intensifying between now and then and the EU's reaction will impact the public's decision.


Uh, Europe intervened in Libya. Maybe not Holland, but certainly UK and France.

Libya was more of an EU thing also, with multiple countries pushing for it. Can't really blame the US for that one.

So, why don't you reply to the core of the message then? I edited Lybia out .

Russia is actively supporting the regime which began to shoot its citizens years before ISIS.

Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother. Show some respect.

 

[Nivash]

Russia is actively supporting the regime which began to shoot its citizens years before ISIS.

And now they're gearing up to jump straight into it directly. Considering how they dealt with the insurgency in Chechnya it's a safe assumption that it will just increase the numbers of refugees.

Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother. Show some respect. And evidence as well.

Syria's already gone. Assad, ISIS and the other factions are just fighting over the rubble. The "best case scenario" for an Assad victory is a horrifying dictatorship that will crack down ruthlessly on the areas that supported rebel factions and result in yet more refugees. Mark my words, come 2020 Syria won't have even half the population it had before the war.

 

[Bo-Locks]

If the UK remains in the EU then very shortly we'll be forced into accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees and economic migrants from outside the EU each year.

This is literally what some EU and national politicians want, and what some people have been calling for in this thread.

If this continues and there's no guarantees for the UK then it's going to be easy for the exit campaign to win the referendum.

 

[jakonovski]

Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother. Show some respect.

Err, are you aware of how the civil war started? There was a popular movement against Assad, who responded with murdering civilians and the whole country collapsed. ISIS came into the picture only afterwards.

 

[shaki123]

Err, are you aware of how the civil war started? There was a popular movement against Assad, who responded with murdering civilians and the whole country collapsed. ISIS came into the picture only afterwards.

You're talking past. I am talking present and future. Stay on topic. Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother.

 

[jakonovski]

You're talking past. I am talking present and future. Stay on topic.

Oh yeah, Assad's so much better now.

edit: also considering you're Dutch, siding with Putin too? Damn you must hate them immigrants to put aside MH-17 and the whole Ukrainian war like that (which btw is also resulting in refugees).

 

[daniels]

I wonder how accurate the blue dotted lines are in a couple of weeks/months.

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Fluechtlin...ch_abschotten-Zaeune._Kontrollen-Story-472717

Red Line: borders closed
Red dotted line: border controls
Blue dotted line: considered closed or controlled borders

 

[MUnited83]

You're talking past. I am talking present and future. Stay on topic. Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother.

With Russia, Syria still falls apart and actualy results in even more refugees, but sure.

 

[daniels]

Oh yeah, Assad's so much better now.

I think if Assad fails there will be a power vacuum and isis would come in and rule which would probably be worse than Assad... so as of now if Russia is maybe supporting Assad it is a kinda necessary evil.
What happens to Assad after isis well i wonder what Russia is planning i am sure they want something for the life's and money spent in return if they choose to help.

 

[paradise_circus]

Without Russia, Syria falls apart because the EU does absolutely nothing. They are fighting against ISIS brother. Show some respect.

This wikipedia article is pretty thorough and the sources are listed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War#Course_of_events

 

[hobblygobbly]

Russia is actively supporting the regime which began to shoot its citizens years before ISIS.

Yesterday I saw something on the BBC blog mentioning a Russian soldier in Syria. He took a selfie and the geolocation was present, it was in Syria. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34188569

Also this article yesterday by BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34290115

I would not be surprised with this considering Russia is doing the same in Ukraine as we speak.

 

[jakonovski]

Yesterday I saw something on the BBC blog mentioning a Russian soldier in Syria. He took a selfie and the geolocation was present, it was in Syria. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34188569

Also this article yesterday by BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34290115

I would not be surprised with this considering Russia is doing the same in Ukraine as we speak.

Welp, better brace for a new refugee wave. Everyone knows how the Russians fight a war.

 

[shaki123]

I rather have Russia in the Middle East than the USA. Let's be honest lol.

 

[maniac-kun]

I rather have Russia in the Middle East than the USA. Let's be honest lol.

Well both have a bad reputation there. But the US pretty much failed with their wars. So did the Soviet Union back then.

 

[MUnited83]

I rather have Russia in the Middle East than the USA. Let's be honest lol.

You've gone really off the deep end if you actually believe this. Holy shit.

 

[paradise_circus]

I rather have Russia in the Middle East than the USA. Let's be honest lol.

The reason most don't interfere against the government is because the west finally wants some legit nations there and Assad finds support from Iran and Russia. You could bet that without Assad the west and especially turkey will intervene with military force or Assad has to acknowledge some harsh conditions for elections.

The west should finally stop to throw tons of weapons at every rebellic group though.

 

[shaki123]

What "they" really should have done to prevent all this is the following:

- Leave Iraq alone. USA decides to bomb the shit out of it and find Saddam. Place is a mess. It is much, much worse than ever.
- Leave Afghanistan alone. USA decides to get close on the action and again, everything goes to shit. Much worse than before.
- Leave Libya alone. The EU decides to intervene and surprise, it all goes to shit and it is much worse than before.
- Leave Syria alone. Again intervention shows that it only gets much worse.

Lesson: Stop fucking around with other countries. I am talking to you USA and EU. You have fucked it all up for us. If none of the above had happened. This thread would not exist and for sure I wouldn't have been called a racist, which I am not. This actually hurt my feels a bit so there you go BernardoOne.

 

[Nivash]

What "they" really should have done to prevent all this is the following:

- Leave Iraq alone. USA decides to bomb the shit out of it and find Saddam. Place is a mess. It is much, much worse than ever.
- Leave Afghanistan alone. USA decides to get close on the action and again, everything goes to shit. Much worse than before.
- Leave Libya alone. The EU decides to intervene and surprise, it all goes to shit and it is much worse than before.
- Leave Syria alone. Again intervention shows that it only gets much worse.

Lesson: Stop fucking around with other countries. I am talking to you USA and EU. You have fucked it all up for us. If none of the above had happened. This thread would not exist, and for sure I wouldn't have been called a racist.

Well yeah, but you should really extend that to Russia as well. They aren't going to be any better at it than the US. Their invasion of Afghanistan killed more than 10 times as many people as the coalition did, Chechnya was a veritable bloodbath and any intervention in Syria is going to be just as bloody. They barely have access to precision weapons for heavens sake.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

. This thread would not exist and for sure I wouldn't have been called a racist...

The true tragedy in all of this. /s

 

[MUnited83]

What "they" really should have done to prevent all this is the following:

- Leave Iraq alone. USA decides to bomb the shit out of it and find Saddam. Place is a mess. It is much, much worse than ever.
- Leave Afghanistan alone. USA decides to get close on the action and again, everything goes to shit. Much worse than before.
- Leave Libya alone. The EU decides to intervene and surprise, it all goes to shit and it is much worse than before.
- Leave Syria alone. Again intervention shows that it only gets much worse.

Lesson: Stop fucking around with other countries. I am talking to you USA and EU. You have fucked it all up for us. If none of the above had happened. This thread would not exist and for sure I wouldn't have been called a racist, which I am not. This actually hurt my feels a bit so there you go BernardoOne.

That's the biggest tragedy of all, that your feels were hurt. Poor, poor you ;_;


Also, how can you post this post after just defending Russia's intervention? Holy crap.

 

[shaki123]

That's the biggest tragedy of all, that your feels were hurt. Poor, poor you ;_;
Also, how can you post this post after just defending Russia's intervention? Holy crap.

It was sarcasm friend. And yes, my feels were hurt. Thanks for being concerned.

 

[MUnited83]

It was sarcasm friend. And yes, my feels were hurt. Thanks for being concerned.

So your last 5 or 6 posts were only sarcasm? So much for discussion I guess.

 

[shaki123]

So your last 5 or 6 posts were only sarcasm? So much for discussion I guess.

Only that one. But if you were at least as schooled as you presume to be, you would have known.

 

[MUnited83]

Only that one. But if you were at least as schooled as you presume to be, you would have known.

I premused that no one could be that dense and naive, yeah. Anyhow, that means you are still defending Russia's actions and agreeing with them, which is stupid as shit.
Here, let me help you:
-Russia doesn't give a shit about civilians or refugees. They are only going there to get a foothold in the territory and
-further fuck the country up so they can make more people flee the country and be refugees, so they can destabilize the EU.


If you are so adverse to refugees going to your country (oh noes the humanityyyyy), Russia isn't what you should be supporting.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Italian coast guard had to go out 20 times today to rescue 4300 people. Damn... talk about a busy job.

That means you are still defending Russia's actions and agreeing with them, which is stupid as shit.
Here, let me help you:
-Russia doesn't give a shit about civilians or refugees. They are only going there to get a foothold in the territory and
-further fuck the country up so they can make more people flee the country and be refugees, so they can destabilize the EU.

If you are so adverse to refugees going to your country (oh noes the humanityyyyy), Russia isn't what you should be supporting.

Let's be honest, no country cares about refugees as soon as the cameras are away again and they don't flood your own borders.

I agree that Russia isn't the best country to intervene btw, but at the moment it is the only outside actor that can do something really, considering nobody wants to really attack Assad directly or enter with ground troops and just doing bombing runs isn't doing much.

 

[shaki123]

Italian coast guard had to go out 20 times today to rescue 4300 people. Damn... talk about a busy job.


Let's be honest, no country cares about refugees as soon as the cameras are away again and they don't flood your own borders.

I agree that Russia isn't the best country to intervene btw, but at the moment it is the only outside actor that can do something really, considering nobody wants to really attack Assad directly or enter with ground troops and just doing bombing runs isn't doing much.

I hope people aren't forgetting ISIS is still there and turning Syria into ISIS HQ. The Russians are here to make sure that doesn't happen if I understand correctly.

 

[Chittagong]

EU is heading towards civil war. This is Germany now:

https://www.facebook.com/100002899099610/videos/727316884041608/

 

[Nivash]

I hope people aren't forgetting ISIS is still there and turning Syria into ISIS HQ. The Russians are here to make sure that doesn't happen if I understand correctly.

They're there to support Assad. Assad barely cares about ISIS because ISIS is busy fighting the other rebel groups and the Kurds.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...-each-other-battlefield-data-suggests-n264551

The Russian forces would help Assad subdue the rebel stronghold in the country's north east where most of the people live - likely at tremendous civilian costs and while committing all kinds of war crimes, the Russians won't go as easy on their targets as the US does - and maybe then they'll deal with ISIS.

 

[Valhelm]

I rather have Russia in the Middle East than the USA. Let's be honest lol.

Why?

 

[shaki123]

EU is heading towards civil war. This is Germany now:

https://www.facebook.com/100002899099610/videos/727316884041608/

So they are let into Germany and start destroying cop-cars and whatever. Yeah, keep defending this crap. This footage is frightening to watch.

Why?

/sarcasm.

 

[YoungFa]

So they are let into Germany and start destroying cop-cars and whatever. Yeah, keep defending this crap.

Yeah we shouldn't have let the black bloc in..

 

[Nivash]

EU is heading towards civil war. This is Germany now:

https://www.facebook.com/100002899099610/videos/727316884041608/

Any source that's not a Facebook post? I can't find any news sources about a riot in Germany despite the video being 21 hours hold at least. And don't be an idiot, "civil war" my ass. Greatest hyperbolic suggestion in the entire thread and that's saying a lot.

 

[ClosingADoor]

EU is heading towards civil war. This is Germany now:

https://www.facebook.com/100002899099610/videos/727316884041608/

I'm going to need some context. What am I looking at, who are those people? You can't make anything out in that video about what is going on (beside people being absolute shitheads who need to be locked up no matter what).

 

[shaki123]

Any source that's not a Facebook post? I can't find any news sources about a riot in Berlin despite the video being 21 hours hold at least. And don't be an idiot, "civil war" my ass. Greatest hyperbolic suggestion in the entire thread and that's saying a lot.

Do you think these are actors or something. It's Frankfurt by the way.

EDIT: I misread the context of the video. Sorry.

 

[YoungFa]

I'm going to need some context. What am I looking at, who are those people? You can't make anything out in that video about what is going on (beside people being absolute shitheads who need to be locked up no matter what).

Banner says "Nazis raus", everyone is wearing black... connect the dots
Bunch of kids who riot for fun.

 

[Nivash]

Do you think these are actors or something. It's Frankfurt by the way. These people just arrived and yes, it's reality. This is happening now.

I'm obviously not suggesting it's faked but it's completely lacking context. With no more information that could be anywhere and having happened at any time for any reason. One riot looks like another. We've had plenty of examples in this thread of images and videos completely divorced from their content - the Albanians boarding a ship to Italy in 1991, the "ISIS commander" who actually turned out to be a FSA commander who had been fighting ISIS, the "masses of refugees entering Europe" which was a picture from 2013 of Syrians entering Iraq...

Let's just say it would be stupid to take anything at face value.

 

[jakonovski]

Banner says "Nazis raus", everyone is wearing black... connect the dots
Bunch of kids who riot for fun.

I have exclusive footage of the events in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g37HT4-EtzE