Giant Bomb Thread The Third: #TeamBrad

Status
Not open for further replies.
Because it gives you too much information. What if Mario put big dots on the screen saying, 'OK here's where the koopa jumps, here's where he turns. If you hit this box, you get this specific power up'. If games relied solely on players fault, we would just play pong forever. Even Dark Souls has a chance of spontaneity because not everything is told to you. Mark of the Ninja is pretty much the definition of what's wrong with 'streamlining'.

But it still takes skill to maneuver in such a way that you remain in stealth? It's not like the game draws a line that you should follow and starts telling you when to hold still and when to move, all that is still up to the player.

All it does, as others have said, is take away those moments where a guard suddenly appears out of nowhere or where you're hiding behind something but not really, because the guard is coming from just the right angle or whatever and you have to restart.
 
Because it gives you too much information. What if Mario put big dots on the screen saying, 'OK here's where the koopa jumps, here's where he turns. If you hit this box, you get this specific power up'. If games relied solely on players fault, we would just play pong forever. Even Dark Souls has a chance of spontaneity because not everything is told to you. Mark of the Ninja is pretty much the definition of what's wrong with 'streamlining'.

It gives you information that the ninja would already have in real life(i.e if I throw a rock I know roughly how far the sound will travel, but that is impossible to know in a game without resorting to trial & error, which is terrible for a game putting you in the shoes of a Ninja).

Also your Mario example is terrible, all the information you mention about enemies is easily obtained by the player by simply observing the enemy(as they have fairly simple loops), & as all the enemies have consistent behaviour I would suggest the makers of MotN understand the lessons Mario(& plenty of other 2D games) taught all those years ago, it's just a pity that so many gamers/developers still don't.

It's obviously fine to make a game that relies on trial & error, but expecting the majority of games to use that mechanic (even though it is a relic of a different era) is crazy.
 
*Debate in progress.

*Default action 001.

*Check credentials.

Heh.

He's right though. Take Hitman as an example. That game is a stealth game first, action game 5th, and the tools provided allow you to see where enemies are looking, where you can move, where you can't, and allow you to devise a strategy in order to circumvent said obstacles. It, and almost every other stealth game, usually do a fairly poor job letting you know where the limits of a guard's view are, however, and usually provides for some pretty clumsy trial and error moments that don't feel like you're being stealthy, but instead makes the situation feel like you are exploiting the limits of the AI.

Let's look at the mario example though. You might not have specific arrows pointing to where you need to jump in order to hit a walking goomba, but the game tells you through it's own non verbal systems how you can preform special moves that allow you take different paths. The game never tells you can you fly below the platforms in certain levels of super mario world, It just shows you the alternate exit and lets you figure it out on your own. It's no different than what mark of the ninja does, the only difference being that MoTN shows you the sphere of influence you have over individual enemies that you will often have to use as tools to solve puzzles.

By allowing you to see the visual information, the sound information, the range of your weapons, your subweapons, your tools, you get to spend more time devising good strategy than wondering if that dog is going to arbitrarily see you if you're 1 step closer than you are. It takes the guess work out of the equation and makes the gameplay all about you figuring out how to make it in and out in a stealthy manner. It's never a glut of information; just because you know the limits of enemies doesn't mean that you're going to be able to simply skirt around them. There are enough situations where you're going to have to figure out how to slip right through a platoon of enemies without being seen, or you're going to die.

MoTN is, quite simply, the best stealth game in years because it manages to remove the guess work out of the equation. More games should attempt to emulate their system.

And if you don't like any of that stuff, Hard mode turns all the indicators off. IMO - it doesn't really make it more fun. Especially in the later levels where you have to deal with environmental traps.
 
I got Mark of the Ninja from the steam sale and started playing it. Its pretty good so far but not quite the savior of stealth games these guys spoke of it as. It feels like any other stealth game, just with more aggressive checkpointing. Which I guess is all it takes to impress them

Hopefully it starts to pick up soon

It's no Euro Truck Simulator 2 that's for sure

Those were my exact thoughts too. They didn't do much to 'solve' the problems of stealth games besides simplifying the perspective and adding tons of checkpoints. I still run into many of the same frustrations in MotN as I did in other stealth games.
 
Mark of the Ninja bored me to the point of dropping it with its "trial and (no) error" design. Stealth without the tension of being caught is a poor formula. Don't know if it greatly changes later on though.

It is pretty understandable why they'd like it though. I think the GiantBomb dudes are very averse to any sort of frustration to varying degrees.
 
Is Patrick being facetious with his 'stealth is rubbish' schtick? I honestly can't tell whether he's being pigheadedly arrogant with his own opinion, or if he's being deliberately hyperbolic but failing to make it clear like Jeff does when he dismisses entire genres
 
Is Patrick being facetious with his 'stealth is rubbish' schtick? I honestly can't tell whether he's being pigheadedly arrogant with his own opinion, or if he's being deliberately hyperbolic but failing to make it clear like Jeff does when he dismisses entire genres

Well he was the guy who hates fantasy... except for Skyrim, Game of Thrones, and probably the entire genre of low fantasy
 
Those were my exact thoughts too. They didn't do much to 'solve' the problems of stealth games besides simplifying the perspective and adding tons of checkpoints. I still run into many of the same frustrations in MotN as I did in other stealth games.

I actually ran into more frustration with MotN than I did when I went back to the original Thief last week. MotN feels way too mechanical to me for a good stealth experience. It's fun but adheres to a fairly rigid structure. It's kind of a puzzle game.

Is Patrick being facetious with his 'stealth is rubbish' schtick? I honestly can't tell whether he's being pigheadedly arrogant with his own opinion, or if he's being deliberately hyperbolic but failing to make it clear like Jeff does when he dismisses entire genres

I've tried to understand where he's coming from on a lot of the stuff he says, but then he goes overboard on something like this. I don't know how someone in his position can be so dismissive of entire genres (that include some great games), and be so crass about it too, without anything to really back it up. I'd be interested to hear more specific examples from him about what games formed his opinion that an entire genre is utter shit. Y'know - offer up some explanations and maybe have your views challenged. That would lead to more interesting discussion than flat-out proclaiming something is shit.
 
Is Patrick being facetious with his 'stealth is rubbish' schtick? I honestly can't tell whether he's being pigheadedly arrogant with his own opinion, or if he's being deliberately hyperbolic but failing to make it clear like Jeff does when he dismisses entire genres

Well he wasn't even born when Thief was released.
 
Is Patrick being facetious with his 'stealth is rubbish' schtick? I honestly can't tell whether he's being pigheadedly arrogant with his own opinion, or if he's being deliberately hyperbolic but failing to make it clear like Jeff does when he dismisses entire genres

My #1 issue with Patrick is this.
 
It is pretty understandable why they'd like it though. I think the GiantBomb dudes are very averse to any sort of frustration to varying degrees.

It's the games journalist disease. When you play everything to a deadline, you want things to proceed at a predictable rate.

Someone in some other thread put it well, games reviews are the enemy of deep gameplay. This doesn't mean that I want to put any blame on the GB dudes, they just say it like they see it.

This also explains in part why Vinny is so popular, he's immune to the disease.
 
Dishonored suffered as a stealth game because it gives the impression it's not okay to always be silent, and always subdue over killing. If it was instead set so everything goes as long as you get the job done, it would have been stealth game of the year. It suffers more from a perception problem than an actual gameplay one.
 
Dishonored suffered as a stealth game because it gives the impression it's not okay to always be silent, and always subdue over killing. If it was instead set so everything goes as long as you get the job done, it would have been stealth game of the year. It suffers more from a perception problem than an actual gameplay one.

Yeah, if it hadn't been shouting in my face that killing fools will lead to a bad ending I'd probably have a way better time with it.
 
Mark of the Ninja bored me to the point of dropping it with its "trial and (no) error" design. Stealth without the tension of being caught is a poor formula. Don't know if it greatly changes later on though.

It is pretty understandable why they'd like it though. I think the GiantBomb dudes are very averse to any sort of frustration to varying degrees.

It's the games journalist disease. When you play everything to a deadline, you want things to proceed at a predictable rate.

Someone in some other thread put it well, games reviews are the enemy of deep gameplay. This doesn't mean that I want to put any blame on the GB dudes, they just say it like they see it.

This also explains in part why Vinny is so popular, he's immune to the disease.


Well, they did like Xcom and FTL...
 
It's the games journalist disease. When you play everything to a deadline, you want things to proceed at a predictable rate.

Someone in some other thread put it well, games reviews are the enemy of deep gameplay. This doesn't mean that I want to put any blame on the GB dudes, they just say it like they see it.

This also explains in part why Vinny is so popular, he's immune to the disease.

I agree, and you reminded me of how Brad always complains about having zero time to play games for whatever reason (lately the reason has been because he's old, apparently). Listening to 2011's goty podcast the other day, however, and Brad mentioned how he'd put some 500 hours into Starcraft II. Sometimes think if these guys just managed their time better, they'd be able to get around to all the games they need to play and also put the proper amount of time into said games.
 
I'm glad Brad dug deep into SC2. I'd rather see him dig deeper into one game that he likes than play a dozen more games for GOTY. That's the issue people are talking about here. They rarely get deep into any one game. Having those handful of games they really feel passionate about and spent serious time with helps me relate with the guys. Brad's love of SC 2 and the time he spent with it lets me know that they still can really get into a game beyond the brief time that it is in the spotlight.
 
And that's exactly the thing they don't want to do.

How many times have you heard one of them say "oh god I need to play that", and then they never do? It happens a lot, where someone expresses an interest in a game that came out and they never got a chance to play. We could get some more well rounded discussion if more of them played the same games as each other, outside of the big ones they'll all inevitably play.
 
Because it gives you too much information. What if Mario put big dots on the screen saying, 'OK here's where the koopa jumps, here's where he turns. If you hit this box, you get this specific power up'. If games relied solely on players fault, we would just play pong forever. Even Dark Souls has a chance of spontaneity because not everything is told to you. Mark of the Ninja is pretty much the definition of what's wrong with 'streamlining'.

Absolutely wrong. If players are given sufficient information by the game, then everything that occurs is their own goddamn fault and becomes a far greater measure of player skill.
 
How many times have you heard one of them say "oh god I need to play that", and then they never do? It happens a lot, where someone expresses an interest in a game that came out and they never got a chance to play. We could get some more well rounded discussion if more of them played the same games as each other, outside of the big ones they'll all inevitably play.


Again, this is exactly what they tried to move away after Gamespot: The need to play a game for the sake of a review or general consensus
 
This also explains in part why Vinny is so popular, he's immune to the disease.

It is pretty obvious that Vinny plays games for fun. That I like. He gives games a chance, and always articulates why he doesn't like them. I also feel that he doesn't form knee jerk reactions, or opinions.

I like the site, and really enjoy the Bombcast but sometimes the negativity and apathy annoy me. Games are written off far to easily with a single sentence, and genres are discussed which really should be left to another site with a stronger knowledge base.

A recent example of both these points is Planetside 2. The overall impression is SOE have done a fantastic job creating this game, and have made several key improvements on the original and created the best F2P FPS available to date. Yet the game is completely written off in a flash by Jeff, and therefore the site. While it is his opinion, and he is entitled to it, to the outsider it is another rash conclusion formed after probably a couple of hours playing it. Instead of being in a position to discuss the issues with the game it instead ends up being a case of "Meh, it isn't Planetside 1 which I played for 100 hours".

This results in the second most ambitious large scale multiplayer title of 2012 being absent from their GOTY short runners/winners. The first one being of course Guild Wars 2 which was also absent. But the latest "iOS love life" Space Team is on the list.

Just my penny's worth.
 
I guess you just take the good with the bad. Sometimes they'll hook into something you like and sometimes they'll dismiss them out of hand. Nobody else had an interest in playing Planetside 2 except for Jeff and Jeff didn't have a good time with it. That's just how the dice fell, and there should be no onus on them to all play it if they don't want to.
 
Again, this is exactly what they tried to move away after Gamespot: The need to play a game for the sake of a review or general consensus

Hmm. Not really saying that. Outside of the text you selected and bolded, I'm more specifically talking about games they themselves have said they wanted to play, but couldn't. Plenty of conversations have been relatively stifled because a couple of the guys couldn't comment either way. Certainly not looking for a general consensus. If 5 guys played the same game and came away with 5 different opinions, that would be an awesome discussion.
 
I like the site, and really enjoy the Bombcast but sometimes the negativity and apathy annoy me. Games are written off far to easily with a single sentence, and genres are discussed which really should be left to another site with a stronger knowledge base.

The worst people for this are the Weekend Confirmed guys.

It's just so painful to listen to.
 
Hmm. Not really saying that. Outside of the text you selected and bolded, I'm more specifically talking about games they themselves have said they wanted to play, but couldn't. Plenty of conversations have been relatively stifled because a couple of the guys couldn't comment either way. Certainly not looking for a general consensus. If 5 guys played the same game and came away with 5 different opinions, that would be an awesome discussion.

Certainly wouldn't mind a Game Club in the same way Idle Thumbs does books, for instance. Might not work on top of their other things though...
 

Youll be recording after the announcement when you all return to the studio to record a special breaking news podcast about how excited you are for this new Pokémon thing that will be amazing.

Edit: I started writing this before the guy above me did.
 
It is pretty obvious that Vinny plays games for fun. That I like. He gives games a chance, and always articulates why he doesn't like them. I also feel that he doesn't form knee jerk reactions, or opinions.

I like the site, and really enjoy the Bombcast but sometimes the negativity and apathy annoy me. Games are written off far to easily with a single sentence, and genres are discussed which really should be left to another site with a stronger knowledge base.

A recent example of both these points is Planetside 2. The overall impression is SOE have done a fantastic job creating this game, and have made several key improvements on the original and created the best F2P FPS available to date. Yet the game is completely written off in a flash by Jeff, and therefore the site. While it is his opinion, and he is entitled to it, to the outsider it is another rash conclusion formed after probably a couple of hours playing it. Instead of being in a position to discuss the issues with the game it instead ends up being a case of "Meh, it isn't Planetside 1 which I played for 100 hours".

This results in the second most ambitious large scale multiplayer title of 2012 being absent from their GOTY short runners/winners. The first one being of course Guild Wars 2 which was also absent. But the latest "iOS love life" Space Team is on the list.

Just my penny's worth.
I don't think you guys get that they have stated several times since the genesis of the site, that they want to just cover the games they are interested in, shocking i know. They don't have to give a shit about any of the games or genres you guys are complaining about, that's why it's a personality driven site. Don't like it? Go to somewhere like ign or gamespot.
 
I don't think you guys get that they have stated several times since the genesis of the site, that they want to just cover the games they are interested in, shocking i know. They don't have to give a shit about any of the games or genres you guys are complaining about, that's why it's a personality driven site. Don't like it? Go to somewhere like ign or gamespot.

That they play what they like, and that's simplifying the situation a fucking lot, doesn't mean they suddenly become entirely unbiased about what they don't play, or what they do play for that matter. They spend a lot of time talking about all kinds of games and that has very little to do with that kind of a site it is.
 
I always had Brad down as a closet Pokemaniac. Pushmo my ass, we all know what he's been playing on the bus.

They're just (most likely) announcing the first 3DS pokemon game, either a remake or gen6. Not sure why people are so eager to hear giantbomb's opinion on it.

Whenever they talk Pokemon on the podcast it's hilarious. Like the episode where they just said the names of random Pokemon, like Meowth.
 
I always had Brad down as a closet Pokemaniac. Pushmo my ass, we all know what he's been playing on the bus.



Whenever they talk Pokemon on the podcast it's hilarious. Like the episode where they just said the names of random Pokemon, like Meowth.

i would have put jeff down as the closet pokemaniac. Then again, he's a closet everything at this point
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom