Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
They're called those things because they are those things, and you pointed to one of the worst of the bunch as an example of someone who's level-headed.
Giantbomb Letter from the Editor Re: Gamergate
- Thread starter Gestault
- Start date
Don't get me wrong, there is certainly a level where "do not react" can't apply, usually the most serious criminal levels like doxxing, but is it really so hard to imagine the sort of person who would do that feeling more powerful, not less when polygon writes an article about them regardless of its content?
"The whole industry is talking about me" type of thing
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
What does thinking like this do for anyone, though? You can have your fingers in your ears and your eyes shut, but meanwhile people are having death threats sent to their job.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Baldwin's views are well documented. You're either ignorant or in agreement if you're holding him up.
That is true, at this point there's really nothing to be done at this point is there, we've demonstrated that death threats are the thing that gets us riled the most, and so death threats we will have for a long time into the future.
I do think there's an alternate future where we just quietly reported those threats to the police/fbi, let them do their work, took measures to protect ourself and we didn't get all the follow up threats, and wouldn't have to deal with them in the future.
But again, just like it's not reasonable to have everyone in any community stand up and speak with one voice it's also unreasonable to expect everyone to play by the same playbook (like not letting on)
and of course the victims are fully entitled to whatever reaction they feel is warranted, the cat would have been out of the proverbial bag eventually.
I guess I just wish we hadn't handed the "This is exactly how you can hurt us the most and cause the most damage" instruction manual over immediately.
Even after everything I would rather see positive reinforcement and support of the victim over negative often "shotgun" condemnations against untouchable ghosts who feed on negative energy. Feels counterproductive.
My opinion only of course, I'm sorry if it bothers people.
Broadcasting Social Media Death Threats sounds counter-productive to me as well. Seeing as how the majority of those "threats" are just extremely insensitive and aggressive trolls. Refer them to the proper channels of law enforcement and move on, showcasing them to the World via a Retweet or Blog seems to only bolster their effectiveness as a shock value response filled with hatred. A legitimate threat cannot be handled by the social media masses anyway, so why give notoriety to the vast majority of threats that are just heat of the moment and nonsensical twitter rants?
Let the assholes of GamerGate die by lack of exposure, instead of keeping them active with more and more arguments and visibility.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Do people honestly think keeping quiet is best, or are you just exasperated from hearing about the problem?
This isn't a case of 'insensitive and aggressive trolls' though. Silence doesn't help because attention isn't what they're after; what they actually want is to drive away any women and offer progressive voices that they for some reason think are coming to take their toys away from them. (There's a reason seemingly every one of these people rants about 'social justice warriors' and it's not because they have some sort of actual critique of progressive discourse.) Silence actually helps them with this because they can isolate their victims more easily.
Speaking up isn't about stopping the people making threats as much as it's about showing solidarity with those affected.
Anita Sarkeesian tried that. Somebody threatened to set off a bomb at GDC in March of this year because Anita Sarkeesian was winning an award, and they decided not to tell the public. Not publicizing that did nothing to prevent the continued harassment and threats that eventually led to her feeling like she had to leave her home late last August. It didn't even stop people from continuing to make bomb threats. Anita Sarkeesian recently said that she had spoken at her third event that had received a bomb threat over her. You know, because the first two were apparently so effective.
Exactly. Recent events are the direct result of not talking about harassment and threats enough in the last few years.
The threats and harassment have been there all along. Few believed they exist because the victims kept quiet in hopes of it dying down.
It didn't.
Haunted
Member
Well, no. gamergate is done. Whatever anyone moderate left in that movement (I doubt there are many left given all the abhorrent harassment and misogyny flung around under the hashtag) thinks they are fighting for has been overshadowed by the extremists.
Don't don white robes and a pointy hat if you want to talk civil rights in Alabama. Don't use #gamergate if you want to positively affect change and more transparency in videogame journalism.
Just pick another fucking hashtag and make sure that one doesn't get hijacked by harassers and misogynists. Gamergate is fucking done, you'll never get it back on track. Leave it behind. Let the extremists and mysoginists and bullies be the only ones left running it, so it's easier for them to be spotted and exposed as the trash they are.
The human cost of silence: https://storify.com/catlinel/the-hu...ign=website&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email
For those still advocating silence, Google "neutrality favors the oppressor"
Also, it was incredibly sad to read that part about Allen.
For those still advocating silence, Google "neutrality favors the oppressor"
Also, it was incredibly sad to read that part about Allen.
The Illiterati
Member
"This shit goes on, and on. Today, it goes on and on. Gamergate hasn't stopped, even with the torrent of negative press. They're clinging to the few conservative rags that are spinning things their way, buying their story, and they're all, universally, in denial about what their movement started out as, what it's doing, and why it's wrong. And the gaming press ignored it for Two. Fucking. Months."
I read the bolded and then I still try and understand why people think GiantBomb saying "Don't send death threats to innocent people! Women have rights too!" two months ago would have changed anything. For that matter, Should Tyler Malka plaster the same thing across the top of every page of Neogaf? It's kind of common, decent sense that everyone who is a decent person already abides by.
And when you say "neutrality favors the oppressor", I get your meaning. But there's not really any rallies to attend, are there? How do each of us(or Jeff Gerstmann) denounce Gamergate hard enough that the faceless amalgam of the evil Gamergate internet is shamed into realizing they are being terrible? Twitter campaigns? I really honestly don't understand. In the end, the people sending death threats could be in the dozens or less. I hope they all get locked up, but then all it takes is one more anonymous idiot to send another and we're seemingly in the thick of it again.
I mean the above in honesty and earnestness.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I agree, people get indecisive when they're put in a situation where it seems like saying anything will cause them to deal with a mountain of shit. That's a big part of why this whole GG thing is so ridiculous, the movement claims to be fighting for integrity but the atmosphere has gotten so toxic that a lot of people are afraid of speaking their mind.
SocksForWoks
Banned
Good post.
I think #gamergate is done and we shouldn't talk about it anymore. The corrupt devs and journalists got the scolding they needed and the antagonists have gotten in enough anonymous harrassment.
I think #gamergate is done and we shouldn't talk about it anymore. The corrupt devs and journalists got the scolding they needed and the antagonists have gotten in enough anonymous harrassment.
Alright, well, I've spent a lot of time explaining why I believe what I believe. Please tell me why people who are willing to send death threats over women in video games will stop doing so if they're loudly condemned. They're clearly more then willing to put anyone and everyone into the "enemy" camp.
Why would constantly repeating and accenting how many women have had to leave the game industry because of threats make people who want women to leave the game industry stop threatening women?
I will honestly consider changing my position if your argument is strong enough despite a pretty crummy sense of sarcasm from your post.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Nah
The harassment was going on well before GG, it was just catalyzed by idiot blogs and wrapped in a flimsy sheet of #ethics
It will continue after the tag is dropped and for as long as people avert their eyes and shut their mouths
Any actually corrupt devs or journalists haven't even been addressed
The amount of ignorance in your post disgusts me, quite frankly
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Spineless lukewarm bullshit
Yea I don't buy into the campaigning against the irrational haters either. Speak to your audience and go about your business as usual, if the trolls aren't serious enough, they will move on. If they are serious enough, contact online moderators/admins and law enforcement.
Live above the hate instead of dragging yourself down into their world and arguing against them, it just keeps their opinion alive.
ShinMaruku
Member
Side effect of the general avoidance to talking about uncomfortable stuff in American culture. Well, that's what I believe.
But the real root of this is a bunch of people on all sides feeling powerless and pouring their rage into something counter productive. Tied to the limiting of critical thinking and the avoidance of talking about uncomfortable things that just suppresses it and contributes to the problem. Things will get a ahead then somethings will have to be discussed but it's gonna be after something big.
One thing that could help on some of the bad stuff is penalties to be incurred on the bad actors, STIFF HARSH ones. Make a few examples of people and the problem should calm down except for the basket cases that you deal with.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
This was kind of my response to the 'why haven't the media said this directly' too.
Obviously, the effort should be made, and the reminder given, but it's not like these people on the internet have any true credibility, or even a way to enforce their beliefs beyond monitoring (and bannings) on their forums.
Yeah, I'm at a bit of a loss here too.
If you honestly think the latter when most of us are in here discussing the issue rather than just ignoring the thread altogether, I can't imagine why you'd be posting in here.
People have been caught and arrested from making death threats on the internet before. I don't know if it's enough, as seems evident in that it keeps occurring.
Other than that and the harassment (which at times can be harder to prove/punish), it's a lot harder to penalize people with any real punishment for having misogynist viewpoints.
Keeping quiet about the death threats, yes, I think that's the best course of action. Only crazy people do this and usually that type feeds off attention. There's no way you will shame a person deluded enough to do that.
If you want to call out people generally harassing women and not letting them have a say, then that's fine, it does no harm and probably a lot of good.
Edit: I thought this was the thread about death threats so my response is probably off base here.
ShinMaruku
Member
There is a much larger underlying issue that needs to be dealt with before this whole thing can calm down.
BruiserBear
Banned
And what would that issue be?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The prolonged harassment of women in gaming in both the industry and player base and the tacit acceptance thereof
ShinMaruku
Member
People now are feeling powerless generally.
This economy the political climate I think a bunch of people are now seeing how the game is played and are pissed, but sadly they look to places of comfort and push some of the negativity to those areas. (We want there to be ethics in the games media) (Dere be a illuminati) and other nuttiness. Until we address the powerlessness people feel(Some of it is their fault though) we will always be in this mess.
This economy the political climate I think a bunch of people are now seeing how the game is played and are pissed, but sadly they look to places of comfort and push some of the negativity to those areas. (We want there to be ethics in the games media) (Dere be a illuminati) and other nuttiness. Until we address the powerlessness people feel(Some of it is their fault though) we will always be in this mess.
I disagree there's an tacit acceptance of it, It's exactly the same argument that if your silent about it than you agree and are supporting the one's doing the threats. It's completely false. I think it's the fact that women are being harassed and threatened and most people have no idea what to do regarding it so we stay silent. I have no doubt that a majority of people do not condone the threats and think it's terrible that it's happening but that's not agreeing with it happening.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Disagree if you want to
I've been on the internet for a very long time. Have you ever been in an irc channel and someone random joins and the mods are asleep? I've based my opinions on my experience online handling people who cannot be affected by normal authority. To be fair too it also probably has some to do with past bully experience, I've also seen people even when legitimately in danger from authority still end up getting worse to people instead of getting better.
I also have seen trolls operate and know they feed on people's hatred of them or their position.
Anecdotal? Sure,
But I've yet to see the logic that would counter all that experience.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I am not the ancient internet sage
But real life extends beyond the internet and your categorization of these threats as trolling gives me the impression you don't think they matter
funkystudent
Member
Good on them for addressing it.
Clearly some people seem to be out for blood and want more aggressive action from the press but I thought it was refreshing to see a somewhat major gaming site address the recent controversies without immediately getting super defensive and dismissive of everything like that Polygon article a few days ago.
Clearly some people seem to be out for blood and want more aggressive action from the press but I thought it was refreshing to see a somewhat major gaming site address the recent controversies without immediately getting super defensive and dismissive of everything like that Polygon article a few days ago.
The entire movement was born on misogyny itself, and the campaign itself is ruled by misogyny all over the place. You can't separate misogyny from Gamergate. The entire foundations of the movement were based on it. If you want a discussion on journalism you should try to choose another movement/campaign, because this one is entirely rotten. Trying to discuss legitimate journalism issues under the Gamergate movement at this point would be like using a Nazi uniform while discussing human rights.
If it's real life consult law enforcement and deal with the threats, if it's online harassment, ban, mute, block, press the Red X button or ignore it and move on.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Not talking enough about death threats caused more death threats, so all this recent talk about death threats will reduce the number of death threats.
That's your position? Really?
plagiarize
Banned
I'm glad they've addressed it, and even though I feel *very* differently to Giantbomb about silence on the issue, they aren't silent anymore so that's good.
Curufinwe... it's not that talking about death threats is necessarily going to prevent the death threats, it's that not talking about them didn't, so what reason is there *not to talk about them*?
There are certainly reasons *for* someone to talk about them if they are on a personal campaign to improve the representation and treatment of women in gaming. Highlighting the harassment they get for talking out about such things is definitely helpful to their cause.
If it's not harmful to their health... there's no reason for them to stay quiet about it.
Curufinwe... it's not that talking about death threats is necessarily going to prevent the death threats, it's that not talking about them didn't, so what reason is there *not to talk about them*?
There are certainly reasons *for* someone to talk about them if they are on a personal campaign to improve the representation and treatment of women in gaming. Highlighting the harassment they get for talking out about such things is definitely helpful to their cause.
If it's not harmful to their health... there's no reason for them to stay quiet about it.
It's worked fine for me and plenty of friends I know that have had to deal with online harassment.
In life you have levers to use against people, if I'm friends with someone and they make a crummy comment about a woman I leverage my friendship to try to change their behavior.
You have no such leverage against anonymous internet harassers, you are trying to stop al qaeda by giving them a strongly worded UN condemnation of terrorism. They don't care about your opinion and they don't care about you as an enemy. Why should they?
Also, suggesting I think *death threats* don't matter, when tied to someone's real address/name is more then a bit insulting. I use trolling since from the dawn of the internet they feed on condemnations and anger. I see similar attitudes here.
Still, I guess that's what "With us or against us" means.
Instead of offering some sort of argument, evidence or even anecdote on why your option is superior and I should agree it's "If you don't agree with me or you are probably a terrible person."
Great, glad to know everyone's still intransigent and immediately insulting. That'll really get this conversation to go far.
BruiserBear
Banned
I honestly don't get this "movement". Every argument I've heard comes off as being hollow. I'm honestly open to hearing more, but so far nothing has convinced me this matters.
As a staunch advocate for the loudest possible response to the festering slime that is Gamergate I applaud Giantbomb for their candor and especially Jeff Gerstmann who's seen and been through enough actually unethical shit to know one thing from another.
It's not going to stop the core of deranged assholes who're orchestrating this fiasco, but it's nice that an 'elder' statesman like Jeff has finally had so much of enough that he's written a response.
I'll keep the rest of my anti-Gamergate vitriol to the main thread... I just wanted to voice my support for Jeff and the rest of the GB staff.
It's not going to stop the core of deranged assholes who're orchestrating this fiasco, but it's nice that an 'elder' statesman like Jeff has finally had so much of enough that he's written a response.
I'll keep the rest of my anti-Gamergate vitriol to the main thread... I just wanted to voice my support for Jeff and the rest of the GB staff.
We've been talking about death threats all year long. Adam Orth, the COD developer, and now all this.
I have no problem with anyone who suffers this abuse choosing to talk about it in any way that they feels helps them. I completely reject the notion that more publicity from the media will make the amount of abuse go down.
And Giant Bomb addressed online harassment in another editor's letter way back in July. They have not been silent up till now.
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-07-02-2014/1100-4948/
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
How many thousands of tweets and emails do you and your friends get per day
How many times have you had you and/or your families personal info dug up and held out as a carrot for others to go after
Yes, I'm less concerned with your pride than with what people are going through right now
sorry
plagiarize
Banned
We can't change their minds or wave a wand and turn them into nice people, but we can expose them for exactly what they are, and that will make it a lot harder for them to gain supporters.
Also, a lot of people are publically spouting this shit, because they genuinely think it's a totally acceptable position. You now like how people in the past would say "I'm not against black people at all. I think segregation is for the best for everyone." as if it was nothing, and how now it's an opinion people know to keep to themselves, that makes the world a nicer place for black people to live.
Yeah, we didn't stop those people from being racist... we didn't even get them to realize that they were... but we sure helped minimize how much they influenced the next generation and we sure helped black people by making it so they didn't have to hear that shit nearly as much.
The less alone the targets of abuse feel the less they will be inclined to think that they have to stop doing what they're doing in order to just lead a normal life.
Publicity and public support of the targets of abuse will serve as a bulwark. I'm not being dramatic here it's just how these things go.
I don't get offended by anything said about me, my family, or my friends via internet harassment, ever. If they had my personal info and could do something dangerous with it, then law enforcement would be called.
If you want to threaten me or offend me, then your best shot is to be in my face in real life, not behind some mass Hashtag campaign and email spam. It's the internet, I could give a fuck, I'll keep on living.
If my livelihood involved ad revenue hits to a website with my published articles of my opinions, then I would adapt to the criticism and irrational hate that would obviously come with it. If I couldn't adapt to that hate, then I would do something else to make a living.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
That's not what I asked you
No, I do not get a billion emails from 4 chan threatening my family every day.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
First of all comparing the Orth situation to this is ridiculous based on the nature and volume of the threats.
Second of all publicity from the media here should be to support those who feel victimised and show solidarity behind them. It has fuck all to do with reducing the threats which already clearly will persist when people remain silent.
Thirdly I don't see why you'd bring that first letter from Jeff up. It solely existed to address fanatics who couldn't cope with people criticising the website for the fact that they only hired white males given they're one of the only gaming websites out there to do so exclusively. Surely you can see how the current situation is a totally different issue?
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
I wonder if the real Gamersgate - the store front that sells Steam keys at a low price, is experiencing any increase in business over this.
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