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Grandia® II Anniversary Edition (PC) |OT| Still Not Vague Enough 15 Years Later

LordAlu

Member
I'd forgotten how many different fonts were in use in this game, they're all over the place. If someone does figure out how to change them I think choosing one or two solid options would be better than so many different ones :D
 

Falk

that puzzling face
More thoughts on Widescreen, the FMVs from the original, and the FMVs currently in the Anniversary Edition.

References:
Original FMV here
Anniversary Edition intro here

As we all (kind of) know infer, there are three main reasons that widescreen was not implemented in this port. The cutscene FMV, the FMV-based skills in battle, and the UI.

As GungHo has been very forthcoming in both reasonings for this as well as displaying a strong inclination towards supporting this game (going as far as to 'looking into' 60fps) I'm taking the time and effort to put together this technical analysis.

Cutscene FMV
Firstly, let's talk about FMV in the original game.

This is a game from 2000. Resolutions and aspect ratios weren't as ubiquitous as they are today. Heck, DVD was '480p' or '576p' and Lord knows if the footage was supposed to be "standard" (4:3), any one of the disparate "Widescreen" ratios of the time (16:10, 3:2,16:9 etc or wider) despite being 720 actual pixels wide. Pixel aspect ratios were very often something other than 1:1. Many games of that era (and other media, really) opted for an intended aspect ratio in the ballpark of 16:10, since that made the resulting imagery fit comfortably between Standard and Wide and didn't look abysmally bad when either stretched to 16:9 or squashed to 4:3.

Taking a look at the FMVs from the original game, the pixel aspect ratio and by extension 'intended' display aspect ratio actually appears to change from FMV to FMV. (link above) For example, in the original introduction FMV, which is a amalgamation of CGI and traditionally drawn anime, it does appear that the intended aspect ratio should be about 15% wider than Standard, or hovering around there. (The best way to identify this is from elements that are clearly intended to be a perfect circle - planets, murals, etc. Everything else from landscapes to humanoid figures can be and often are deceptive).

Some captures from the intro FMV from the original Dreamcast game. I don't want to say it's 4:3, because, as mentioned the intention changes from shot to shot, but the pictures are in 4:3 for better or worse, as they are screenshotted off a YouTube video playing them back at that AR (This wouldn't always have been the case depending on what TV you were using back in 2000).

SH1714K.png
The actual first shot of the game. Conveniently enough, a planet and moon. Note that both the moon and the star to the left make it abundantly clear that the intention was for a slightly wider AR (by maybe 12-15%) than 4:3, as it is slightly horizontally squashed.

A mural, hand-drawn. Ditto - the circle would be a perfect circle had it been about 12-15% wider.

That's the intro. Taking a very obvious example from further into the game (where all the FMV is clearly CGI) things tend to slide. I present this non-spoilery shot of the red moon some time into the game:

Yikes! This is far beyond needing to be 15% wider. It's in the ballpark of needing to be 20% wider (which is about when things starts to look really ugly), putting it close to an intended aspect ratio of 16:10. Like I said, it jumps from FMV to FMV.

In comparison, here's what was done to the FMV in the Anniversary Edition. (I could be wrong depending on how the game actually handles this, as I swapped from 16:9 fullscreen to a 4:3 window midway through the game, so please correct me if you have screenshotted evidence to the contrary)

Intro: Upressed and stretched to 16:9. New logo and staff text were appended on top. Unfortunately with the 4:3 display area of the game, this creates a double pillarbox/letterbox on 16:9 resolutions.


The planet, while now clearly stretched instead of squashed, doesn't look -too- bad. (In fact, between this and the red moon squashed image above, It's like choosing between two minor evils, really)

Other cutscenes: Untouched. Red Moon cutscene for example is still squashed.

My main point here is, the cutscene FMV really doesn't look terrible at 4:3 or 16:9. It, like a lot of media of the period, was done with an intended compromise aspect ratio in between 4:3 and widescreen, so as to not look too terrible in either. Most importantly, it 100% wasn't 4:3 footage to begin with, and isn't even a consistent AR from FMV to FMV to begin with

In fact here's a simple resize in MSPaint of Red Moon shot to 16:9. Doesn't look too bad. In fact I daresay it looks better than in the original Dreamcast FMV just left to its devices on modern standards (where 4:3 = 4:3)

----------------------------

Combat Skill FMV

These, in contrast, are 100% intended to be 4:3. I think part of it is they needed to be tailored specifically to go with the aspect ratio, FOV and framing of the 3D game world (See: Zap for a very obvious example), so a lot more attention was paid to making it sit correctly.

Stretching them is a no-no. Leaving the sides uncovered by the FMV in cases like Zap is again a no-no.

----------------------------

UI

Game UIs from this era are pretty much kind of in the same boat as FMVs. Objects that are clearly intended to be circular appear stretched at 16:9 and squashed at 4:3, for the exact same reason - If the dev couldn't, for whatever technical or artistic reason, create two (or more) variations of the UI for each aspect ratio, the solution was making one that was kind of a compromise between the two so it didn't look too terrible on either. In fact this persists in many Wii games way past the 2010 mark.

In the case of Grandia 2 though, it's quite arguable that the intended AR was clearly 4:3 due to the character portraits.

----------------------------

Proposed Widescreen Solution

Cutscene FMVs
- Reencode everything at 16:9. As pointed out in the technical analysis, it really doesn't matter for the cutscene FMV in Grandia 2 if it's 4:3 or 16:9. Have them display fullscreen for widescreen resolutions, and letterboxed for anything less than 16:9.

Combat FMVs
- They absolutely need to stay 4:3 because of aforementioned interaction with the game world. An easy solution would be to, for widescreen, cover the left and right 17% of the screen with flat-out black every time the game invokes a layered or full FMV for the various skills. Think of it as a poor-man's vignette - most of these abilities are really flashy light shows anyway, with focus in the middle of the screen.

UI
- There's three solutions here, really.
1) The easiest, low-effort one is to simply maintain UI elements with their relative position to the horizontal center of the screen. In other words, UI exists on the middle 66% of the screen horizontally. You can see more 3D world off to either side, but that's pure gravy. This actually coexists best with the poor-man's-vignette solution mentioned above. UI elements that are full-screen, like the menu, can invoke the same vignette to cover up the sides with black (or if you wanted to get fancy, some additional art)

2) Stretching the UI. This would generally mean it looks... well... stretched, but the UI covers the entire screen. This really wouldn't be problematic except for the portraits. On the flipside, due to aforementioned precedent for how UIs looked for games from this era, it's not much different than playing the original game on a widescreen TV in 2000, except now at least the 3D world isn't horribly stretched, only text, UI elements and the occasional picture.

3) Overhauling the UI for widescreen. Use stretching as a base, then manually adjust elements that look too off-kilter, like portraits and compass.

------------

I freely admit that while my technical analysis of the cutscene FMVs is sound, the analysis and solutions presented for battle FMV and UI are just off my short experience with this port, so things that I have not foreseen or experienced may indeed still be problematic. I also understand that the man hours needed to implement and more importantly test stuff like this may be out of the scope of this port and supporting it.

But really, considering that Grandia 2 is one of the best JRPGs of the era (yeah maybe I'm biased), and that this Steam/PC version might as well be the de-facto version for perpetuity, along with whatever goodwill it garners for possible future ports, I honestly think it's worth exploring.

Steam itself has the functionality for (relatively) simple implementation of a beta branch, if there's a need for public testing. I honestly don't see the harm in getting the game to differenciate between 4:3 and 16:9 resolutions, implementing the fixes above (for a start) in 16:9 mode, and seeing how people respond to that, especially if work is being done to fix all the other bugs as well. (My gut instinct here is that QA required to nail the audio bugs is going to be rather extensive, so why not crowdsource it. Heh)

In the end though, I'm just a loudmouthed jerk (who also happens to work on games, specifically ports/HD remasters, but I digress) posting my opinions rather candidly/informally on NeoGAF, so eh. Take this post with a light grain of salt. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their job, and the Anniversary Edition is already great as it is!
 

antitrop

Member
When I played this game for the first time at release, I didn't realize about the Power Up menu until over halfway into the game.

So, yeah, it's easy.
 

Durante

Member
Unpopular opinion: I've been completely spoiled by how fast Compile Heart games are. I mean, yeah, they're budget affairs and a lot of the speed is due to travelling between 'places' being done via menu and lack of actual physically explorable towns (i.e. the games really are more visual novel with dungeons and combat than a traditional JRPG framework), but everything from startup logo barrage to combat animations to results screens are skippable. The games really respect not wasting your time if you don't want it to.
Yeah, I completely agree with this opinion.

Furthermore, as e.g. the Atelier games show, even if you have traditional city exploration there's nothing preventing you from offering a menu-based alternative and getting the best of both worlds.
 

OmegaDL50

Member

Because they are an overlay to the existing 3D assets in game.

Most of the spells are positional in the sense they are centered on a specific target on screen based on where they are for both the caster and target.

Here is an example of the Zap FMV animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAHEsm456Q

And this is what it looks like in game when played over top the existing 3D models in battle https://youtu.be/tBFBH7YdYtM?t=520

If you change the aspect ratio of the spell animation videos they won't align with the assets in game and it will look very, very wrong because their alignment will be off.

In fact almost all of the fancy spell animations are entirely FMV that run over top of the existing 3D in-game. Only very few spells are actually cutscene-like in the sense they don't rely on where the caster or enemy targets are.
 

Falk

that puzzling face

A lot of the skills are very specifically rendered as a layer on top of the 3D game world. I'm quite certain that the camera movement for these skills are locked to a very specific trajectory/orientation so that they're in sync with the FMV playing on top of it. As an analog, think of the camera moving on a dolly during filming of a movie, and that same movement data being applied to 3D VFX layered on top of the footage. If you stretch it, you lose that movement sync.

Again, see Zap for a good example of this.

edit: beaten hahaha

edit2: Actually that second in-game video is not a particularly good example. I suspect it may be running on emulator, and the FMV layer is out of sync with the 3D layer (timewise, not orientationwise)

Here's what it should look like. Notice how tight the effect is when everything lines up properly
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Actually that second in-game video is not a particularly good example. I suspect it may be running on emulator, and the FMV layer is out of sync with the 3D layer (timewise, not orientationwise)

Here's what it should look like. Notice how tight the effect is when everything lines up properly

Actually the 2nd video is from the original pre-Steam PC version from years ago. A lot of the videos were poorly encoded. It was one of the many reasons why the PC release had so many crashes during battle when loading the videos of spell animations. Re-encoding them entirely fixed this issue but still that wasn't the only issue with the original PC port either, so it's best forgotten I suppose.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Personally, I'm not either. But it's always fun to push boundaries.

Metaphorically.

And literally in this sense.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Now that I think about it. It was an interesting method back then to handle spell effects. Because the animators could use higher quality assets when creating their videos.

I mean as opposed to using in-game animations through the engine itself. I suppose this was a way to have better looking spells with animations that exceeded beyond what could be done with in-engine animations at the time.

And because of that is why this conundary with the 4:3 spell animations would be a conflict in the conversion of making Grandia II Anniversary Edition fully 16:9 in resolution. Ah well. Even so. Still a fine game and the 4:3 isn't much of a deal breaker from enjoying it.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Well, like I said, there's ways to disguise it. I'm pretty sure that all instances of FMV spells have at least a short notice due to loading times to disc-based architecture between the call and when they're displayed. This same loading time can also be used to transition relatively smoothly between widescreen and the 'vignetted' 4:3 display for the duration of the ability.

There's plenty of options on what to put in the extra space at the left and right during this time.
- Black. Simplest to implement.
- A static image. Heck it can say "GRANDIA II ANNIVERSARY EDITION" vertically for all I care. Or be Granas symbolism on one side and Valmar or another. Possibilities are endless
- A generic flashy background. Think rhythm games. (Obviously something more congruent with the art style and setting of Grandia)
- A blurred, scaled-up, slightly darkened version of the actual 4:3 display area. If you've seen enough trailers for Japanese 3DS/PSVita games, you know what I'm talking about lol. This should be really easy to accomplish with DirectX too.

I mean, the whole concept of widescreen in this case is "Yes, there are elements in the game that don't work with widescreen. Any other time in the game, here's your widescreen. When we have to, we disguise the shortcomings. Have fun".
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Oh my God I'm getting this audio bug where half of Tio's combat dialogue is a bunch of unintelligible beeps and bloops and her footstep sound is a footstep alternating with R2 D2.

I can't stop laughing

edit: Wait, that's what her footsteps actually sound like. The lines are defo messed up though.
 

warheat

Member
I doubt it will happen
The game was made for 4:3, and too many problems, particularly in battle prevent it from working well.

Wrong, it's been a while but I played the original PC port back in the day (P4 1.6Ghz and FX 5200) and hex edited it for true widescreen, FMV and HUD will stay 4:3 but everything else is true 16:9.

I don't own the current Anniversary Edition, but can someone try this and see if it works? I use this guide to get true 16:9 in the original port.
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15042
 

Dachande

Member
Wrong, it's been a while but I played the original PC port back in the day (P4 1.6Ghz and FX 5200) and hex edited it for true widescreen, FMV and HUD will stay 4:3 but everything else is true 16:9.

I don't own the current Anniversary Edition, but can someone try this and see if it works? I use this guide to get true 16:9 in the original port.
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15042

That won't work, the exe for the Anniversary Edition is different. Those values will be elsewhere in the file, someone would need to find them.
 

warheat

Member
That won't work, the exe for the Anniversary Edition is different. Those values will be elsewhere in the file, someone would need to find them.

Well follow these link and see if you can find the address with new .exe

http://www.wsgf.org/article/common-hex-values
http://www.wsgf.org/article/hex-editing-tutorial-simcity-4-example

See if it works. The tutorial is for Sim City 4, but it shouldn't be that different because I remember doing the exact same thing on Cold Fear PC port back in the day and it works.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Been putting some time into this, but still early on. The game really holds up incredibly well, especially the battle system. I forgot how much I enjoyed it, and I still think it's pretty much my favorite JRPG combat.

My only real problem is that I wish you could pull the camera back a bit. Dungeons and such are kind of hard to navigate when you can only see a little area around your guys.
 
Been putting some time into this, but still early on. The game really holds up incredibly well, especially the battle system. I forgot how much I enjoyed it, and I still think it's pretty much my favorite JRPG combat.

My only real problem is that I wish you could pull the camera back a bit. Dungeons and such are kind of hard to navigate when you can only see a little area around your guys.

I really wish there was a mini-map. I think years of playing RPGs on DS/3DS has really spoiled me with 2nd screen maps -- they're just so handy!
 

Falk

that puzzling face
So is the Nut Grabber achievement bugged? I got 26 nuts and the achievement did not pop up.

I'm almost at this part. Will report back.

Also still completely clueless as to where Hurricane Belt is for the Belt cheevo.
 
Wrong, it's been a while but I played the original PC port back in the day (P4 1.6Ghz and FX 5200) and hex edited it for true widescreen, FMV and HUD will stay 4:3 but everything else is true 16:9.

I don't own the current Anniversary Edition, but can someone try this and see if it works? I use this guide to get true 16:9 in the original port.
http://www.wsgf.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15042

If this can happen and ends up looking pretty good then I might hold off on playing it till it gets implemented somehow. Bought it and loaded the game last night.

Been putting some time into this, but still early on. The game really holds up incredibly well, especially the battle system. I forgot how much I enjoyed it, and I still think it's pretty much my favorite JRPG combat.

I have to say that Grandia 2 is my favorite version of the battle system. Everybody loves 3, but that one felt a bit off to me somehow.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
If this can happen and ends up looking pretty good then I might hold off on playing it till it gets implemented somehow. Bought it and loaded the game last night.

If you're talking about an official patch, It's a lot more work than implied by simply tweaking a few hex values. You need to make sure that nothing breaks at any point of the game. From combat, to the overworld map, to various pre-rendered still images, to all the points mentioned in my godzilla-of-a-post earlier.

It's one thing for a determined user to just change a few hex values, get widescreen for a good portion of the game and ignore the various issues that come up because, hey, it's a hack job.

It's another thing for a porting house/dev/whatever to do it and essentially have to QA the game from start to end to be sure it's presentable, fixing every single issue that crops up along the way and then some.

Completely different scope there.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
If you're talking about an official patch, It's a lot more work than implied by simply tweaking a few hex values. You need to make sure that nothing breaks at any point of the game. From combat, to the overworld map, to various pre-rendered still images, to all the points mentioned in my godzilla-of-a-post earlier.

It's one thing for a determined user to just change a few hex values, get widescreen for a good portion of the game and ignore the various issues that come up because, hey, it's a hack job.

It's another thing for a porting house/dev/whatever to do it and essentially have to QA the game from start to end to be sure it's presentable, fixing every single issue that crops up along the way and then some.

Completely different scope there.

I'd also think it wasn't part of the scope of the project since the game itself released a budget price of $15 ($20 when the promotion period ends of course)

I mean if Grandia II was going to receive, FFX level Remastering treatment, then I definitely wouldn't expect to be priced the same. I pretty much expected it was going to be a fairly standard affair as a straight Dreamcast port with some few additions when the game was announced at the $20 price point.
 
If you're talking about an official patch, It's a lot more work than implied by simply tweaking a few hex values. You need to make sure that nothing breaks at any point of the game. From combat, to the overworld map, to various pre-rendered still images, to all the points mentioned in my godzilla-of-a-post earlier.

It's one thing for a determined user to just change a few hex values, get widescreen for a good portion of the game and ignore the various issues that come up because, hey, it's a hack job.

It's another thing for a porting house/dev/whatever to do it and essentially have to QA the game from start to end to be sure it's presentable, fixing every single issue that crops up along the way and then some.

Completely different scope there.

That's pretty much why I said "somehow". If it's official, then yay. If it's a quick and dirty hack job by a random user, then also yay. I've got plenty to keep me busy before then, really.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Glad the first patch came out so quickly. Still wanna wait for a few niggling issues to get fixed, but we'll get there.
 

ArjanN

Member
Unpopular opinion: I've been completely spoiled by how fast Compile Heart games are. I mean, yeah, they're budget affairs and a lot of the speed is due to travelling between 'places' being done via menu and lack of actual physically explorable towns (i.e. the games really are more visual novel with dungeons and combat than a traditional JRPG framework), but everything from startup logo barrage to combat animations to results screens are skippable. The games really respect not wasting your time if you don't want it to.

Honestly I think padding and wasting the player's time are huge (shitty) staples of JRPGs.
 
Maybe we cracked the code. Grandia 1 confirmed (and required for Grandia 2 cheevos)

...


.......

A MAN CAN HOPE OK?

Grandia 1 is available on PSN for PS3/Vita already. It's not on PC but at least it's easily available from a modern download service. Xtreme and 3 would be nice in some form even if it's just PS2 Classic, since those games were built for PS2 and don't have crappy PS2 versions. I think Xtreme/3 are already available in Japan PSN so most of the QA work would already be done.
 
Grandia 3 & Xtreme would be nice since they're not accessible but I'd like a definitive Grandia 1 even better. Hard mode, Japanese voice option, and being based on the superior Saturn version would all be nice improvements to the PS1 classic. And if they included and translated the expansion pack-esque bonus disk that would be truly awesome (though much less likely).
 
Cast overview:

Cam Clarke ...
Ryudo / Father Carius / Risotto (voice)

Jennifer Hale ...
Elena / Paella (voice)

Jodi Benson ...
Millenia / Reena (voice)

Peter Lurie ...
Mareg / Gatta / Brother 2 (voice)

B.J. Ward ...
Roan / Elmo (voice)

Kim Mai Guest ...
Tio / Selene / Client's Daughter (voice)

Paul Eiding ...
Skye / Oro / Carpaccio / Brother 3 (voice)

John Cygan ...
Melfice / Cilent / Brother 1 (voice)

Richard Doyle ...
Zera / Gonzola / Village Chief (voice)


Oh, you know, it's just basically the entire cast of MGS1 here. Oh, and various other Metal Gears? Well, isn't that special.
 
The widescreen hack for the original PC game stretched the image if the resolution was not 4:3. It was most useful for enabling additional resolutions as the game only supported like 4 natively.
 
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