Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

Space Marine 2 keeps getting better and better. Played through the level they demo'd back in 2023 and it looks stunning. The architecture in this level is jaw dropping. The skybox is super busy with an insane amount of flying creatures. The lighting is fantastic through out. Very few areas where it looks last gen. Asset quality is some of the best ive seen this gen. Right up there with callisto, AW2, ratchet and demon souls, but with even more detail.

I also like the variety of lighting in these levels. It's day time outside, but then they send you to these indoor areas with these blue lit areas and a church lit by fire. It looks stunning and its all one level.

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not to beat a dead horse here.
but now imagine how ugly this would look if it was UE5 and used Lumen.

just saying
 
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I think we'll see a lot of current gen titles getting path traced updates/remasters on PS6.

This gen was all higher res, higher framerate and a few bells 'n whistles tacked on to PS4 games, I think the next remaster cash cow will be games this gen that managed RT getting pushed into PT.




I really hope we see full on RTGI in HZ3 alongside of a slew of upgrades elsewhere, part of me is preparing myself for disappointment and it effectively being another PS4 game in 4K60 & the dials turned up on PS5 Pro.

Guerilla really need to go all out on this one and make it an end of gen showcase, not to mention a nice upgrade for PS6.

1440-1620p @ 30/40fps paired with their excellent new upscaler and all the visual systems heavily upgraded is all we need. Then we can have a 60fps mode + extras on PS6 (and PC).

DS2 is a nice looking game and I'm all in on it as a big fan of the first, but it's very clearly not pushing visuals as hard as wed' expect in gameplay and I hope that's not a reflection of the current state of Decima or how it'll be in HZ3; and more a reflection of KojiPro just having different priorities and budget/manpower considerations.
The real evolution of decima is gonna be made by guerrilla itself, not by freakin kojima.
 
wait, so you think Baked Lighting is better than realtime lighting?

on current hardware it absolutely is.

even the best RT GI doesn't look as clean and temporally stable as good looking baked lighting. that's just a fact.

until we have RT acceleration hardware that barely needs denoising anymore, high quality baked lighting will always look better. sharp, stable, higher performance=higher internal render res
 
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on current hardware it absolutely is.

even the best RT GI doesn't look as clean and temporally stable as good looking baked lighting. that's just a fact.

until we have RT acceleration hardware that barely needs denoising anymore, high quality baked lighting will always look better. sharp, stable, higher performance=hugher render res

Bullshit. Dynamic objects and characters will still look bad with baked lighting.

Hardware lumen is stable enough most of the time, software version is the problem. You also have games like Indiana Jones and Metro that have very stable hardware RTGI.

Software lumen is used because console RT hardware is weak, but this doesn't explain why many games don't have hardware lumen switch on pc...
 
Space Marine 2 keeps getting better and better. Played through the level they demo'd back in 2023 and it looks stunning. The architecture in this level is jaw dropping. The skybox is super busy with an insane amount of flying creatures. The lighting is fantastic through out. Very few areas where it looks last gen. Asset quality is some of the best ive seen this gen. Right up there with callisto, AW2, ratchet and demon souls, but with even more detail.

I also like the variety of lighting in these levels. It's day time outside, but then they send you to these indoor areas with these blue lit areas and a church lit by fire. It looks stunning and its all one level.

GZweivq.gif


2U3Sf5w.gif
notifty me when they add HDR for it on ps5 pro...
 
Software lumen is used because console RT hardware is weak, but this doesn't explain why many games don't have hardware lumen switch on pc...
hmm interesting

hardware lumen feels cheap in oblivion and avowed, is that because nvidia gpu fast in ray trace? would hardware lumen not be possible on ps5 with a 30 fps target really?
 
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The real evolution of decima is gonna be made by guerrilla itself, not by freakin kojima.
Kojima literally came up with the name, Decima.

They built the engine together. Both teams shouldve been thinking about adding next gen features to the engine.
Keep in mind we had no contract or anything at this stage, yet still they handed over what was basically the crystallisation of their efforts over many years. They simply said, "Mr. Kojima please use this engine," and we thought these people are incredible.

There was one condition though, that Kojima Productions doesn't just use the engine, but that we develop the engine together with Guerrilla Games, that it should be a collaborative effort. So we were really blown away by their stance on this and being so open with the engine and we thought "Wow, these are the people we have to work with."
How has this collaboration with Guerrilla Games grown since first adopting the engine?

We were looking for a realistic presentation (for TGA), so we had to make changes to the tools and other adjustments to the engine. Over the course of 6 months we passed the code back and forth between Guerrilla Games and Kojima Productions, working off the same code base. At this point our code had completely merged together.

It was different from the engine they originally gave us, so we decided we should give this new engine a name. That's when we came up with the 'Decima' name (derived from Dejima – an artificial island in Japan where The Netherlands and Japan would trade during the Edo period). I really feel that with both of us working on this engine we are accomplishing the work at twice the speed and building something really fantastic.
 
hmm interesting

hardware lumen feels cheap in oblivion and avowed, is that because nvidia gpu fast in ray trace?

It's also not too bad on AMD GPUs.

Alex (DF) speculated that when you start your project in UE5 you have to choose hardware lumen, then you can just add switch to software version. If you start with software lumen YOU CAN'T switch to hardware version again.

I don't know how true it is but this would explain why majority of UE5 games don't have hardware lumen (console ports). This level of incompetence on the side of Epic and developers would also explain why we still see games running on old and unoptimized versions of the engine. Changing anything is hard.

UE5 can make games look really good but engine looks like a fucking mess, with all that stutter and stuff like this... I bet CDPR won't be able to fix UE5 stuttering for Witcher 4.
 
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Kojima literally came up with the name, Decima.

They built the engine together. Both teams shouldve been thinking about adding next gen features to the engine.
Well we saw how much kojima added to decima with ds2 so my hope is that guerilla is gonna do much better than him.

Zero dawn to forbidden west is a bigger jump than from zero dawn to ds or from ds1 to ds2, so in my eyes guerrilla is clearly the major updater of this engine until something change.
 
notifty me when they add HDR for it on ps5 pro...
Honestly, i dont mind the lack of HDR. If anything, it makes it easier to capture stuff on PC because PC captures are awful with HDR.

The game still looks striking whenever there are objects with higher dynamic range like fire, explosions and other glowing objects.

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Well we saw how much kojima added to decima with ds2 so my hope is that guerilla is gonna do much better than him.

Zero dawn to forbidden west is a bigger jump than from zero dawn to ds or from ds1 to ds2, so in my eyes guerrilla is clearly the major updater of this engine until something change.
keep in mind, the biggest changes from HZD to HFW like the water and character rendering upgrades came because KojiPro had worked on them for DS1.

I think it's 50-50. both deserve the blame.

Sadly, KojiPro is too busy jerking off to hentai instead of adding meaningful engine upgrades. See below. I know someone got upset at me the other day for saying this and kojima today literally posts this video of a hentai pepper lol

 
Honestly, i dont mind the lack of HDR. If anything, it makes it easier to capture stuff on PC because PC captures are awful with HDR.

The game still looks striking whenever there are objects with higher dynamic range like fire, explosions and other glowing objects.

GQLTkBo.gif


JyOZTql.gif
this is not an excuse. sdr games look almost black and white coming from hdr...
Anyway - steam now tonemaps hdr screenshots to sdr somewhat correctly
 
keep in mind, the biggest changes from HZD to HFW like the water and character rendering upgrades came because KojiPro had worked on them for DS1.

I think it's 50-50. both deserve the blame.

Sadly, KojiPro is too busy jerking off to hentai instead of adding meaningful engine upgrades. See below. I know someone got upset at me the other day for saying this and kojima today literally posts this video of a hentai pepper lol


Materials look a decent step-up over the first game, but I'm very very doubtful RTGI is in place here, the strong lighting from the outside would have quite a visible impact on the interior.
There's some SSR artifacts on the floor too when his backpack turns around near the wall, not that I assumed RT reflections would be in play, I just hate SSR.
 
Yeah but rebirth or re4 remake? Really?
You gotta seperate advanced Graphics from best looking.
They are tangentially related.

People can simply like the world design and not give a shit about bad textures.

For me ofcourse the answer would be Tears or the kingdom and Guilty Gear strive.
 
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You gotta seperate advanced Graphics from best looking.
They are tangentially related.

People can simply like the world design and not give a shit about bad textures.

For me ofcourse the answer would be Tears or the kingdom and Guilty Gear strive.
Then name the topic another way, because best looking game has not much leeway in terms of interpretation.

Best art style
What type of graphic you like


Not best looking game.
And re4 is not a stylized\cartoony game, it clearly try to have realistic, detailed graphic, and as far as realistic games goes there are faaaaar better games than re4.
 
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Then name the topic another way, because best looking game has not much leeway in terms of interpretation.

Best art style
What type of graphic you like


Not best looking game.
And re4 is not a stylized game, it try to have realistic, detailed graphic, and as far as realistic games goes there are faaaaar better games than re4.

No the title is perfect since "best looking game" is unrelated to "game with best graphics"
so why would there be a reason to change it when games with graphics that are generations older still look better?

Also you are right RE4 isnt stylized, but the point here is it isnt about the graphics, world design, atmosphere, character design are all more important.

This thread is about graphics that one is about being nice to look at.
 
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Bullshit. Dynamic objects and characters will still look bad with baked lighting.

they also look bad with RT GI, just a different kind of bad.
with static GI they can look badly lit.
with current RT GI they can create obvious ghosting and can have obvious slow light reaction


Hardware lumen is stable enough most of the time, software version is the problem.

that is absolutely not true, and in some titles the opposite is true in fact. in Ninja Gaiden 2 Black hardware Lumen is less stable than software lumen, and both look absolutely disgusting.



Lumen breaks entirely in specific scenarios, especially in enclosed rooms with multiple light sources and semi-dim lighting.

I prefer lower fidelity visuals over broken visuals. even if the broken ones can look nicer in still images.


You also have games like Indiana Jones and Metro that have very stable hardware RTGI.

yes, but that doesn't change the fact that in a game that doesn't need real time GI, it's a waste of GPU resources that could be used to improve visuals in other ways.

the big issue with RT GI, and RT in general, is that it rapidly degrades in quality the lower the internal resolution is. so the harder you push RT, the lower the internal resolution needs to be to keep the same performance target.

this means it has a degrading effect on performance and image quality, while also itself looking worse and worse with the dropping resolution.


Software lumen is used because console RT hardware is weak, but this doesn't explain why many games don't have hardware lumen switch on pc...

Hardware Lumen is not much better. it has almost the exact same issues.
ghosting, boiling, slow reaction to changes, highly reliant on screen space information, bad performance compared to even much higher quality competitors.



the only valid use of RT GI is when it's absolutely necessary to the scope of the game. be it highly dynamic environments, dynamic weather and time of day, or when baking isn't viable due to scale, like in Doom The Dark Ages.

Space Marine 2 doesn't fall into any of these categories. neither do many UE5 games that use Lumen.
Robocop, Silent Hill 2, Ninja Gaiden 2, Expedition 33. none of them need Lumen, all of them would look better without it in many ways.

Lumen is primarily used as a shortcut, not as something that actually enhances visuals beyond what is possible with baked GI.
 
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You gotta seperate advanced Graphics from best looking.
They are tangentially related.

People can simply like the world design and not give a shit about bad textures.

For me ofcourse the answer would be Tears or the kingdom and Guilty Gear strive.
Yeah that needs to be more defined, for art style I love Journey, Hi-Fi Rush, Stray, Ghost of Tsushima
 
No the title is perfect since "best looking game" is unrelated to "game with best graphics"
so why would there be a reason to change it when games with graphics that are generations older still look better?

Also you are right RE4 isnt stylized, but the point here is it isnt about the graphics, world design, atmosphere, character design are all more important.

This thread is about graphics that one is about being nice to look at.
I'm sorry but when op post 3 games that aim at high fidelity\realistic graphic, it's hard to think that he is talking about the things you listed...

If he opened the topic and posted okami, guilty gear and another game like that i could understand, but not when he opened the topic with those 3 games, i mean fucking hell kc2 is as realistic as you can get, there is nothing in that game that is made up, everything is historically accurate.

My interperetation of op intentions is as good as yours dude, we can't be sure what his intentions are when he opened the topic.
 
I'm sorry but when op post 3 games that aim at high fidelity\realistic graphic, it's hard to think that he is talking about the things you listed...

If he opened the topic and posted okami, guilty gear and another game like that i could understand, but not when he opened the topic with those 3 games, i mean fucking hell kc2 is as realistic as you can get, there is nothing in that game that is made up, everything is historically accurate.

My interperetation of op intentions is as good as yours dude, we can't be sure what his intentions are when he opened the topic.

You are right he may have wanted to make a topic about graphics.
That said I maintain that his words are totally unrelated tho graphics on their own.
 
There are quite a few posts that just point out how certain posters are very out of touch or stuck in time.

I think the only good suggestion so far was Demon's Souls PS5.
Demons has great locations, way less great character models, for a relatively small sized game, it's not that impressive anymore.

Tessellation is the stand out of that game imo.

If you told me this was a ps4 screen, i would believe you


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But then again, i'm very picky.
 
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Demons has great locations, way less great character models, for a relatively small sized game, it's not that impressive anymore.

Tessellation is the stand out of that game imo.

If you told me this was a ps4 screen, i would believe you


eYKtW9w.jpeg



But then again, i'm very picky.
I suppose, but if you're going to use the rule of 'you're only as good as your worst screenshot' like you're suggesting in your post, then quite a few games in this thread are going to fall apart.
 
I suppose, but if you're going to use the rule of 'you're only as good as your worst screenshot' like you're suggesting in your post, then quite a few games in this thread are going to fall apart.
Yep, every game that is not hb2 is hit and miss (and even that one miss a lot when you zoom enough), it just a matter of how much you care about the lows\highs.

I love super detailed character\enemy models so demons remake is never gonna be on top of my list, on the other hand forbidden west has worse lights than sh1 on ps1 (apparently) but characters and enemies are incredible so i'm always gonna praise that one.
 
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Demons has great locations, way less great character models, for a relatively small sized game, it's not that impressive anymore.

Tessellation is the stand out of that game imo.

If you told me this was a ps4 screen, i would believe you


eYKtW9w.jpeg



But then again, i'm very picky.
Good launch window game. I still stand by calling it a PS4.5 game like ratchet.
 
keep in mind, the biggest changes from HZD to HFW like the water and character rendering upgrades came because KojiPro had worked on them for DS1.

I think it's 50-50. both deserve the blame.

Sadly, KojiPro is too busy jerking off to hentai instead of adding meaningful engine upgrades. See below. I know someone got upset at me the other day for saying this and kojima today literally posts this video of a hentai pepper lol


Mafia looks generational ahead of that kojima and sony bullshit of really fuc. Them
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they also look bad with RT GI, just a different kind of bad.
with static GI they can look badly lit.
with current RT GI they can create obvious ghosting and can have obvious slow light reaction




that is absolutely not true, and in some titles the opposite is true in fact. in Ninja Gaiden 2 Black hardware Lumen is less stable than software lumen, and both look absolutely disgusting.



Lumen breaks entirely in specific scenarios, especially in enclosed rooms with multiple light sources and semi-dim lighting.

I prefer lower fidelity visuals over broken visuals. even if the broken ones can look nicer in still images.




yes, but that doesn't change the fact that in a game that doesn't need real time GI, it's a waste of GPU resources that could be used to improve visuals in other ways.

the big issue with RT GI, and RT in general, is that it rapidly degrades in quality the lower the internal resolution is. so the harder you push RT, the lower the internal resolution needs to be to keep the same performance target.

this means it has a degrading effect on performance and image quality, while also itself looking worse and worse with the dropping resolution.




Hardware Lumen is not much better. it has almost the exact same issues.
ghosting, boiling, slow reaction to changes, highly reliant on screen space information, bad performance compared to even much higher quality competitors.



the only valid use of RT GI is when it's absolutely necessary to the scope of the game. be it highly dynamic environments, dynamic weather and time of day, or when baking isn't viable due to scale, like in Doom The Dark Ages.

Space Marine 2 doesn't fall into any of these categories. neither do many UE5 games that use Lumen.
Robocop, Silent Hill 2, Ninja Gaiden 2, Expedition 33. none of them need Lumen, all of them would look better without it in many ways.

Lumen is primarily used as a shortcut, not as something that actually enhances visuals beyond what is possible with baked GI.


Silent Hill 2 has great use of Lumen.

What you showed in NG2 looks awful but not much worse than motion blur artifacts, ssr artifacts, ssao artifacts... Games are full of shit like this for decades. There is potential fix as well, using nvidia ray reconstruction.

What I know it that dynamic GI fixed many problems that games had in the past, most of the time lumen looks fine (to me) but I think RTGI produces better results than Epic tech and few games showed that already.
 
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Yo slimer look at this


It's absolutely stunning and for once you hear devs actually talk about visual fidelity, and pushing detail. Crazy how few AAA devs even talk about this anymore. Great to see the passion for next gen visuals still alive in the industry. Especially among the slightly older developers. you'd expect them to be jaded and cynical about graphics fidelity.
 
It's absolutely stunning and for once you hear devs actually talk about visual fidelity, and pushing detail. Crazy how few AAA devs even talk about this anymore. Great to see the passion for next gen visuals still alive in the industry. Especially among the slightly older developers. you'd expect them to be jaded and cynical about graphics fidelity.
I think its the opposite, those old trusty devs in their 40s/50s are like ak 47, maybe bit simple but will never jam itself unlike the "modern audience" genZ devs who dont have clear direction/focus at all and will easily/often go astray.
Im not saying im against young devs, just its good to have few actual veterans in the team, actual good devs/oldschool dudes, who know whats up and can lead young bucks properly.
Think of it as a balanced professional sports team, u want both youth/burning desire and at the same time experience/clear mind/cold blood for it to all work well together with best results possible :)
 
Silent Hill 2 has great use of Lumen.

What you showed in NG2 looks awful but not much worse than motion blur artifacts, ssr artifacts, ssao artifacts... Games are full of shit like this for decades. There is potential fix as well, using nvidia ray reconstruction.

What I know it that dynamic GI fixed many problems that games had in the past, most of the time lumen looks fine (to me) but I think RTGI produces better results than Epic tech and few games showed that already.
NG2 barely looks like a PS4 game. I was shocked at how mid it looks.

Classic case of Japanese developers having zero idea on how to properly utilize an engine.

ive played almost a dozen UE5 games by now, and these temporal instability issues are way overblown. there are issues with UE5 like traversal stutters and shader compilation stutters on PCs, but all this ghosting talk is nonsense.

I am all for baked GI games. I am very impressed by AW2, Space marine 2, and FF16's lighting. I am not the biggest fan of Robocop, Immortals, Lord of the Fallen, Remnant 2, but their recent games have been far more consistent. HB2, Wukong, SH2, Black hawk down, Professional Baseball Spirits and to a lesser extent Avowed and Expedition 33. Mafia looks a generation ahead of DS2.
 
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