Support NeoGAF

[SlimySnake]

I usually agree with you on most takes, but to just say bake your lighting as if it's just a quick stage is baffling. It's not that simple even for a static game, what about when they have dynamic time of day, weather, dynamic environments etc. Ubisoft did a whole presentation on how much more work it was for static lighting in AC Shadows and that's a massive studio. Smaller studios either need to start with baked lighting from the start and plan their design around it or go with dynamic lighting and accept the performance cost. To just say oh they can just bake it in quickly is crazy. Wukong only adding a lumen disabled option a whole year later is clear evidence of that.

It's more work but not that much more work. I have posted some youtube videos of UE5 editors where you can see how developers go about enabling and disabling lumen. Yes, baking out lighting is an extra step. yes it will require extra space. yes, it will require fallbacks to be implemented. Yes, its probably not ideal for games with day night cycles, but game developers have been doing this for generations. You mentioned AC shadows, they did it and they have so many different time of day, season and weather to account for. Games like high on life 2, mgs delta and expedition 33 do not have day night cycles. hell, i cant think of a single UE5 game out at the moment that has a day night cycle. edit: i was just told avowed and outer worlds had a day night cycle, but so many other UE5 games dont.

I play these games at 4k dlss quality on my PC. Low resolutions like 720p with TSR are not a problem for me. But at some point, a developer has to make some common sense decisions. You can have all the fancy ray tracing in the world but if its running at 720p, why bother? Either lock it to 30 fps or work on a non ray tracing solution to get 60 fps. Several UE5 games have done this recently. Split Fiction, Reanimal, Arc Raiders isnt using nanite. Phantom Blade zero isnt using Lumen or Nanite from what DF could tell. It looks stunning regardless. Great lighting that looked lumen caliber to me. Asset quality that looked nanite quality.

You mentioned Wukong, it doesnt work because devs never bothered to bake in the lighting. they just removed lumen without any kind of fallback. I am not seeing its not more work, im saying it shouldve been part of the development when they were lighting the game. You can watch youtube videos on this. Devs still have to place invisible light sources and what not to light each room since Lumen, especially software lumen cant offer precise results like path tracing can. Hell, the latest versions of UE5 can even bake in lumen reflections. What I am saying is that they can take that pre-lit version and bake that out into light maps that can then be shipped with the game for the 60 fps mode.

 

[SlimySnake]

Speaking of fast-moving scenes in linear games:
This was Advanced Warfare in 2014

and it looked far better in motion
that iteration of the engine was simply sublime

we had Arkham Knight, DriveClub, a visually stunning COD of all games, The Order, Unity ,etc. and then
it's like suddenly the entire industry formed a coalition to furtively downgrade their games in a [failed] attempt to reduce costs
... from which the industry hasn't even partially recovered

look at the quality of the lighting and textures in these games, the amount of technical effort they invested in the new gen, the fact that they still look impressive is a testament to that
the industry either had a talent hemorrhage or decided to go in a different direction with regard to visual improvements

it is as if their attention was suddenly diverted to 'something' [the emergent RTX? DEI? A survey saying graphics don't matter anymore, I don't know ] that consumed them entirely and
prevented them from making all the right decisions and eliminated all the progress they had made, like a supernova explosion that destroyed the technical aspect of the gaming civilisation

Last gen games fared much better on youtube. Watch this GOW trailer. Looks amazing. We now know its inconsistencies and last gen assets and lighting that the youtube trailer cleverly hides.



Conversely, Modern games, especially UE5 games, do not show up well on youtube. The detail that makes these games stand out is lost. Especially in fast moving trailers like this. Just look at the DS2 trailers. Kojima did a great job keeping the camera static and it made the game look way better than it did on our tvs.

Wolverine may not have the best realtime GI implementation or nanite quality meshes, but they are one of the few Sony devs who do think graphics matter. Their target list for wolverine was full of modern tech that has been completely MIA from Sony games this gen.

yes, the industry is hemorrhaging talent, but just like with AC shadows, Alan Wake 2, Avatar, and other UE5 games, just wait until the game comes out before digging too deep in youtube captured screenshots.

P.S Sledgehammer is indeed a very talented studio. I'd recommend you check out all their COD games. WW2 and Vanguard both had some pretty cool looking levels by last gen standards. They are currently making a new IP, an action RPG.

 

[benzy]

Waiting for confirmation with the console specs for Crimson Desert which shouldn't be too long since release is near, and this could still change in the final release, but from Pearl Abyss's R&D report from late last year, they've implemented ray-traced reflections and ray-traced GI in the base PS5 version, and obviously Series X should be getting the same too, with PS5 Pro getting PSSR support. Their standard lighting uses a ray-marched real-time GI solution, which is still great even if not as accurate as RT.

 

[SlimySnake]

Waiting for confirmation with the console specs for Crimson Desert which shouldn't be too long since release is near, and this could still change in the final release, but from Pearl Abyss's R&D report from late last year, they've implemented ray-traced reflections and ray-traced GI in the base PS5 version, and obviously Series X should be getting the same too, with PS5 Pro getting PSSR support. Their standard lighting uses a ray-marched real-time GI solution, which is still great even if not as accurate as RT.

my guess is 4k fsr quality at 30 fps and 4k fps performance at 60 fps seeing as how they've been boasting about how performant their engine is. Other ray traced games bottom out at 720p-864p in the 60 fps modes so it will be interesting to compare this new engine's performance profile on consoles. maybe they've figured out some secret sauce other developers havent.

 

[T4keD0wN]

Lumen isnt that expensive in newer UE5 versions anymore, i am actually impressed by the small performance penalty compared to 5.0

Spoiler: Imgsli slideshow for convenience

Imgsli

High on life 2 (UE5.5)
lumen GI+reflections with some key upgrades over retail

Lumen GI + SSR

Screenspace

nothing

Ray Recon preset D + too many reflective surfaces (couldnt get the translucency to look good no matter what, flawed af)

 

[GymWolf]

 

[metareferential]

If somehow the pc version of Crimson Desert manages to get rid of all that ghosting and shimmering while still running decently, it's going to be a real looker.

Scale, density, lighting all look amazing.

 

[SlimySnake]

Lumen isnt that expensive in newer UE5 versions anymore, i am actually impressed by the small performance penalty compared to 5.0

Spoiler: Imgsli slideshow for convenience

Imgsli

High on life 2 (UE5.5)
lumen GI+reflections with some key upgrades over retail

Lumen GI + SSR

Screenspace

nothing

Ray Recon preset D + too many reflective surfaces (couldnt get the translucency to look good no matter what, flawed af)

this is the area i was talking about in the DF video. looks really great.

What UE5 version are they using? I dont understand why its so expensive on consoles. What's the penalty on the framerate when you turn everything on?

 

[H . R . 2]

P.S Sledgehammer is indeed a very talented studio. I'd recommend you check out all their COD games. WW2 and Vanguard both had some pretty cool looking levels by last gen standards. They are currently making a new IP, an action RPG.

very talented but for some reason their games went visually downhill from AW
WW2 was still quite good but Vanguard , despite being next-gen, had nothing to show for it
I played a few hours of it and quit on account of the game being dull both visually and narratively

I think it was Schofield who was pushing for better visuals

 

[H . R . 2]

Splinter Cell Remake Development Continues Despite Studio Being Hit by Lay-Offs, Says Ubisoft

Ubisoft Toronto saw its workforce reduced by 40 roles, said a spokesperson, while work on Splinter Cell and Rainbow Six continues.

SlimySnake

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I usually agree with you on most takes, but to just say bake your lighting as if it's just a quick stage is baffling. It's not that simple even for a static game, what about when they have dynamic time of day, weather, dynamic environments etc. Ubisoft did a whole presentation on how much more work it was for static lighting in AC Shadows and that's a massive studio. Smaller studios either need to start with baked lighting from the start and plan their design around it or go with dynamic lighting and accept the performance cost. To just say oh they can just bake it in quickly is crazy. Wukong only adding a lumen disabled option a whole year later is clear evidence of that.

Do you have a link to the presentation? Thanks.

 

[T4keD0wN]

What UE5 version are they using?

5.5.4.0 exactly
Cant wait to see how much better UE5.7 games run

this is the area i was talking about in the DF video. looks really great.

I dont understand why its so expensive on consoles. What's the penalty on the framerate when you turn everything on?

Game is very solid visually, yeah. I am gonna check once i finish the mission if its possible to return there, there was one bar area with fish tanks very close from here which was awesome for testing every little tweak, especially reflections. Its kind of hard for me to measure since i am CPU bound, so going by usage, i think itd be like -15fps to go from basic lumen to using the advanced features.

Lumen seems very cheap on Blackwell just to turn on, on vs off was -20% performance and about double that if you want to enable most major features, so 40%+ in total, really need to go way past the point of diminishing returns to get it to run bad. To enable reflections on rougher surfacess was just like an extra 1-2fps, major enhancements like making lumen work on Nanite meshes cost more, good value, but they can accumulate fast.


The key enhancements (for meshes+reflections+lighting combined) were a very noticeable improvement to me, thing is i suspect this to be the most intensive location in the game, so i expect other areas to have a lower hit. Honestly kind of baffling why devs wont use the more robust lumen features on PC, they seem very worth it to me.

Everything major on will slash framerate by 1/3rd assuming you also turn up settings reasonably.