Yeah I agree.These guys appear to be operating completely undisturbed by authority. The thing that surprises me is the lack of collective outrage from the British public. It makes you wonder how bad will things have to get until the government decide to face reality and put aside the "community/race relations" bullshit. I mean we're not talking about a bunch of men stealing chocolate bars. This is the large-scale raping of young girls ie children.
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Grooming gangs 'are abusing girls across the UK', victims and investigators warn
- Thread starter Audioboxer
- Start date
MistakenMobius
Member
Do poor white people vote in the UK?
If no there is no reason to protect them, its a simple electoral calculation from the people in power.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The victims are predominantly working class girls on council estates. If it wasn't for the "Muslim paedo gang" angle the tabloids would barely give a shit about it.
Audioboxer
Member
What? Anyone can vote who is registered to.
If you want some ammunition for why some of the working class may go off and vote for Brexit/UKIP then look at this. As I said earlier the right take epidemics like this and then carefully parcel it as us vs them in their political discourse, which then leads to minds being allured to "sides" which they feel are the only ones talking out about these issues.
The left aids itself in losing votes when it doesn't manage to appear publicly to be condemning and dealing with scandals like these. When eyes and ears see some predominant figures on the left rush off to appear to care more about community cohesion and stopping "appearing to be racist", than going to the victims and injustice, first, then that tunes out people who can't understand in their heads the first port of call for someone who claims they actually care about children/girls being raped/abused/trafficked. Community cohesion matters, yes, but when there are scandals like this repeatedly going on community cohesion has to come on the back burner to find out why such injustice is happening and getting it stopped/curbed. Communities are tearing themselves apart precisely because this is going on.
Mohonky
Member
Political correctness. Literally.
People are actually so scared of calling a spade a spade or reporting certain people because they dont want to face the onslaught from the 'politically correct' about how racist they are for reporting it.
BanjoLayleeYookaKazooie
Banned
What the heck is law enforcement doing if it's not protecting kids from these horrible people? It is one thing for Johnson to abuse his status to get to a starstruck fan and the police to be slow to respond (thankfully he got what was coming to him eventually) but these gangs need to be stopped ASAP. The number is astonishing.
MistakenMobius
Member
Anyone can vote but it doesnt mean that they do: if they are not a block voter like angry young white male, college educated women or ethnic group XXX.
There is no reason to care about them since their voice is not making a difference.
If UKIP become bigger than labour, then they might try to reconquer this electorate.
Yes, poor white people vote. It's never a good idea to write off part of the electorate, because times change and people who are apathetic when they see no vested interests can suddenly become highly invested.
Audioboxer
Member
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
Considering we keep getting Conservative governments, I think it's safe to say the working class are voting in large numbers. It's more about age in the UK now, but the Tories still get large leads in part thanks to the working class.
MistakenMobius
Member
Thanks for the information.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
Considering we keep getting Conservative governments, I think it's safe to say the working class are voting in large numbers. It's more about age in the UK now, but the Tories still get large leads in part thanks to the working class.
I am always wondering how the left lost the working class in so many countries.
oh puhlease the "because PC" brigade we are in a country where we have the conservatives in power ind ingrates like farrage and boris are/were key political players. if there is some stupid fear of calling a spade a spade like some are saying then the problem is with the police themselves not the "left" trying to ensure that the police arent targeting people based on their race.
child abuse should be tackled head on regardless of who is commiting it. At the same time it is wrong to make assumptions about people based on their race / origin.
child abuse should be tackled head on regardless of who is commiting it. At the same time it is wrong to make assumptions about people based on their race / origin.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Those stats are based on intention before the election.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-class-and-turnout-how-britain-voted-in-2017
That has data from after - you can see from that that class definitely still is a factor in likelihood to vote.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-class-and-turnout-how-britain-voted-in-2017
That has data from after - you can see from that that class definitely still is a factor in likelihood to vote.
PJV3
Member
I think that was a bit of a cop out to be honest, when it was the churches they did nothing, when it was celebrities they did nothing, when it was politicians they did nothing.
There's an old tradition in this country of children being seen and not heard.
travisbickle
Member
When have the UK police ever done anything right?
Political correctness is just an easy excuse for a police force that has continually failed to act.
Political correctness is just an easy excuse for a police force that has continually failed to act.
Jezbollah
Member
The Police do a very good job in a lot of areas (one being anti-terrorism) but you're right, they've been sorely lacking.
There;s also a lot of political pressure imposed on the Police by local counsellors in these areas - they are the people that need to be tackled first, the cunts.
Audioboxer
Member
There are independent investigations done which clearly suggest "racism" and "fear of upsetting the minority community" played a part. I posted the evidence on the 1st page. You can argue how much of an issue it was, but it was a problem.
I would ask you to think carefully about why it's UKIP/Tommy Robinson/Katie Hopkins and others that are front and centre talking about thousands of girls being raped/abused? Primarily it is for their own political gain/rallying of their supporters, but the question I want you to ask is where are the prominent left-wing voices even acting as "outraged" as Robinson/Hopkins? Where are they? The right does a very good job of bullying the left out of the public discourse when it comes to some issues. Terrorism is another one we've lost ground to far-right politics/political voices.
I'm getting increasingly fed up with it, and the intellectual dishonesty on the left where soo many people just care about their internet brownie points and back-patting each other. I can't stand the battle of ideas and political debates in the open being overrun and led by the right, constantly. If it's not the left attacking itself in the background, it's complete and utter cowardice to tackle serious issues head-on. "But those are right-wing issues! Those are issues for biggots! You must vote Brexit/UKIP if you're discussing this!". No. Do people want to turn around some of the losses of the left in politics around the world? Well, don't respond to a grooming gang crisis with being more concerned about optics than victims. Look at a number of wiki links I linked to in the OP with the same old stories.
Think Labour could do better in charge of the UK than the Conservatives? Well, Labour actually need to get voted in for that to happen, and soo many of the working class genuinely think the left doesn't give a shit about issues such as the grooming gangs. Even in this topic on the first page we have victim blaming to say "poor council estate girls just went and got raped for money". I'm sure messages like that are really going to convince some of the working class we've lost this side is going to take grooming gangs seriously. I don't particularly want to keep living in a UK this broken, and I'm one single voice, but I'm going to get as involved as I can in trying to turn around some of the discourse on this side to better tackle the realities in life. Some of which are horrible to deal with.
Audioboxer
Member
Yes, which is why they need to be held accountable/prosecuted. Let's not pretend though that tarring anyone as racist/far-right/right/bigotted doesn't hold weight in this political climate/social media world. All you need to do is utter "this person, named x, age x, facebook page here, is racist/bigoted/etc" and that person better know how to swim in a sea of attacks/calls for their job/livelihood/smearing/hate/etc.
Sometimes it is taking on people who deserve it, but people that don't deserve it still fear that they'll not be able to cope with the accusations and mob on them. Yes, I'd say that is irrational if it leads you to not arrest/pursue serious allegations, but welcome to humanity where humans cave under pressure/fear. You should not work in the police/intelligence if you can't handle it, but let's not downplay how social ostracization and accusations can cripple people mentally.
Some on the left absolutely love a good hunt these days, and do go after people undeserving. See Brett Weinstein in America. When cases like that go viral others internalize irrational "fears" they could be next. Academia is one thing, but going into minority communities and arresting on mass has the fear of the optics looking like you're discriminating disproportionately. Unfortunately, for those communities, the stats and evidence are showing said communities are disproportionately responsible for these grooming gangs. It is what it is, it has to be acted on and attempted to be corrected/stopped.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Counterpoint: When rich white people with political connections abuse kids, it's brushed under the rug until after they die (Heath, Saville etc)
Spuck-uk
Banned
Also this, it's absolutely a class issue. Funny how the right wing ignore this in favour of skin colour.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Nobody denies that fear of racism accusations have played a part in past cases. But what isn't clear to me is to what degree, post-Rotherham, it is still a primary issue in impeding investigations into this, and also to what extent focusing so specifically just on the race of the perpetrators, rather than all of the other underlying issues which lead to things like this becoming so widespread, is actually going to help solve this in the long run.
The answer is - probably not that much, because for the loudest voices who who focus on that issue the problem they are trying to solve is not the abuse of working class girls but the fact that they are racists who want to use it as a brush to tar all minorities.
The answer is - probably not that much, because for the loudest voices who who focus on that issue the problem they are trying to solve is not the abuse of working class girls but the fact that they are racists who want to use it as a brush to tar all minorities.
Audioboxer
Member
But why isn't there more prominent left-wing speakers even acting as outraged as the right-wing speakers? Even now there is still silence from many, or a fleeting remark. Why do we need to keep leaving this up to the right to talk about/radicalise more minds?
If anyone's answer is simply as I said earlier, it's just the right doing it for political gain. I still ask but why aren't more left-wing voices talking about all of this in a more nuanced and respectable but still as outraged manner as the right? I think I've given some answers as to why many on the left do ignore or brush over. It's fear. Fear of their own side attacking them. It happens time and time again in this current political world if someone on the left tries to wade into a serious and complex issue, others on the left are then primed to attack them and throw accusations like a kid eats candy.
Yes it is unforgiveable to see police cowardice, but individuals cowardice is still bad in the battle of ideas that is politics. If the population at large doesn't get involved in things like this, that is partly how a whole country/political landscape can end up veering further and further to the right. We have lots of evidence for that in Europe.
Here is a short thought-experiment for you around public discourse/engagement. Look at this topic. Someone accused of serious allegations, which do look to be true given the evidence. Sexual harassment/preying behaviour/abuse of power and so on. 20+ pages. Why? It's easier to go into a topic like that and say "Fuck this person, scum, let's get justice. Look at all the women preyed on". Some will enter a topic like this one, see the information at hand, the discussions going on and then back off ever commenting. Where is the same passionate outrage for all these women, or in most cases I should say, girls? I'm not talking about genuine assholes not commentating not to get banned/boo'd out the topic. I'm talking about fellow lefties. Some of the same people in that Andy Signore topic, who would never, or think twice, about touching a topic like this. See the Newcastle grooming gang operation topic on GAF, 2 pages. Both are crimes (Andy sexually harassing is a crime), okay, but I don't think I'm unfair to say rape/trafficking/drugging/abusing thousands of minors is slightly more serious that Andy's individual asshole behaviour/crimes. As I said earlier I or no one else can compel people to the topics/conversations they want to take part in, but this thought-experiment is to try and illustrate to you how there is fear on the left, from within, of accusations/name-calling/tarring and that DOES chase off people getting involved. Even politicians/prominent left-wing speakers.
PJV3
Member
I try not to think of this subject in left and right terms, do the job of protecting children if you are a social worker, arrest rapists if you are a policeman. A lot of this so called fear was in their own heads, I don't see many on the left defending the rapists.
I think they took the path of least resistance as it has repeatedly happened in this country with child abuse and groups of people that have a veneer of respectability.
entremet
Member
I think this has to do with the fact that the people involved, the accused and his victims are named and provided evidence. This is the 20 page topic.
Humans tend to develop more interest in the personal. Were narrative seeking creatures. With the UK cases, the victims are unnamed and anonymous, as they should be as minors. There are no screen caps or cringey advancements, and no accuser have been identified. Its harder to despise a generality.
Audioboxer
Member
But you should, because that influences public discourse and in return voting. The police have to be held accountable for their inaction but to ignore why massive issues like this affect politics, is to be intellectually dishonest about how a country can then end up voting. Just in the same way people vote influenced by terrorism hysteria when there is a void in public discourse.
There is a victim in the OP pictured and named. Yes, many young girls will have their identities protected, but there are some names and pictures out there. The figures alone should be generating far more empathy. It's actually pretty disgusting of a general population to hide behind saying I don't know the 1,000 plus victims, so meh, who cares? Many on the left are rightfully constantly talking about justice for women/against oppression/sexism, so, why is this not a poster topic/series of mass-abuse worth rallying behind? It's almost as if some choose WHAT female victims to rally behind depending on the political situation. Which is indeed, appalling, if people on the left choose to behave like that. To me, that is hugely part of why the far-right get sympathy. They appear to stick up for some victims some on the left find it harder to easily defend. The right is using these people for political gain, yes, but sometimes people take whatever empathy they can get and that then materializes in how they vote.
Here is good ole Tommy, an hour ago, broadcasting this to his legions. I thought he'd have been on it yesterday when the article was written. Either way, he's usually there within hours to pick up on it.
As I said above, are we going to get any large left-wing voices tweeting or appearing as concerned as Tommy is? This is what I'm getting sick of in this country. Leaving it up to people we complain about, correctly, but we don't actually try and take the discourse from them. We'd rather just sit back and call them names (whether justified or not isn't the point here).
Cue more prominent left-wing voices being more concerned about Robinson sending a tweet and how much of a racist he is, than the actual article and scandals themselves. That's not how you seek justice for the victims. At best, you can do both, criticise Tommy if you want, but try and put as much effort and outrage, if not more, into the scandals than the time you spend going after Tommy Robinson.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
I think we can all agree paedos are fundamentally broken humans.
I genuinely think it needs research so we can determine at birth if someone has the gene or whatever. Or at least research if we can determine who is and isn't.
I genuinely think it needs research so we can determine at birth if someone has the gene or whatever. Or at least research if we can determine who is and isn't.
BlazingDarkness
Member
If youre a student you can probably watch it on bobtv (all terrestrial tv is recorded on there for over the past 10 years and free to watch when you log in with uni ID)
BBC also made a harrowing three part drama called Three Girls this year which was about this. It got very high viewing figures so Im sure it went some way to pushing this into the public consciousness.
Jezbollah
Member
That is only part of the issue here.
It's the lack of action against these people that is enabling them.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
A huge part of the problem is that the term "grooming" is constantly being utilized to describe totally normal interactions between adult men and kids, diluting the meaning and making it seem less serious than it actually is.
Grooming DOES NOT refer to consensual, nonsexual physical contact between adults and kids. An adult who hugs, wrestles, tickles, and roughhouses with a consenting and happy child isn't grooming them. This sort of interaction is not only totally appropriate for young children, it's actually a huge part of their social and emotional development.
Grooming DOES refer to a systemic process of isolating vulnerable children physically and emotionally through gift-giving, secret meetings, performing unusual favors, and engaging in persistent unwanted physical contact of any kind. This type of interaction never has positive results, and even in the best case scenario leads to an inappropriate (but non-abusive) relationship.
The problem is that people get so preoccupied with the false "red flags" that arise from their own discomfort towards the platonic physical contact, that they miss the hidden, more insidious behavior that actually constitutes grooming.
This is why society becoming comfortable with appropriate physical contact is so important in the process of detecting true abuse.
Grooming DOES NOT refer to consensual, nonsexual physical contact between adults and kids. An adult who hugs, wrestles, tickles, and roughhouses with a consenting and happy child isn't grooming them. This sort of interaction is not only totally appropriate for young children, it's actually a huge part of their social and emotional development.
Grooming DOES refer to a systemic process of isolating vulnerable children physically and emotionally through gift-giving, secret meetings, performing unusual favors, and engaging in persistent unwanted physical contact of any kind. This type of interaction never has positive results, and even in the best case scenario leads to an inappropriate (but non-abusive) relationship.
The problem is that people get so preoccupied with the false "red flags" that arise from their own discomfort towards the platonic physical contact, that they miss the hidden, more insidious behavior that actually constitutes grooming.
This is why society becoming comfortable with appropriate physical contact is so important in the process of detecting true abuse.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
At the bolded: It doesn't surprise me, but it's still very disappointing to see. Off-Topic GAF quite often likes to get worked up over stuff that yes, while admittedly wrong/bad/etc, it comes nowhere near this in terms of severity.
I also agree with several of the posters in this forum (as well as the documentaries and the Wikipedia article that someone listed) that there could be a strong fear of racial/ethnic perception on the part of the UK Police. I'm not saying we don't need political correctness; it's paramount to a civilized and respectful society. But this is what happens when you take PC to a (dangerous) extreme, and why sometimes there's backlash against what some people perceive to be an overbearing "PC culture."
CyclopsRock
Member
Who are the people getting caught up with this definition?
Mohonky
Member
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming
What on earth are you talking about? How is it relevant to this thread?
Wrestlemania
Banned
I don't think it's all that surprising or a sign of some sort of liberal conspiracy to ignore the problem. The things that tend to spawn a huge number of posts will be things that are ongoing with new news breaking and to discuss or where this is some form of debate a lot of people feel qualified to comment on, in many cases, like with the recent YouTuber issues, as a result of a handful of junior accounts popping in to defend something one would consider to be indefensible.
On a separate note, this story story about Cyril Smith has come up today, just in case anyone was wondering if the shockingly poor handling of child abuse was someone unique to Pakistani/Banglasehi grooming gangs.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...press-about-cyril-smith-inquiry-told-rochdale
This is a weird post.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Anyone who works in childcare in the US (especially if they're a man) has come in contact with this to some extent. Pedophile hysteria has led to suspicion towards all physical contact between adults and kids.
This article and the Wikipedia page use the correct definition of grooming: preparing a child to be sexually exploited by isolating them while earning their trust with unusual favors. That is, however, not the understanding of the term that most people have.
My point is simply that the correct use of the term needs to be emphasized while the incorrect use must be squashed. Actual predators get away with true grooming more frequently because the supportive adults in these children's lives are either misinformed about the facts involved or are uncomfortable discussing the topic with their children.
Part of fighting this is empowering the kids through proper education on the subject, not just catching the predators. This is more controversial than it should be due to the number of adults who wish to shield children from these topics... imperiling them in the process.
Here are two good, research-backed resources that should be entering the public's consciousness:
http://www.thrivingparents.net/talking-to-children-about-appropriate/
https://www.d2l.org/education/additional-training/healthy-touch-children/
More than that, they're trying to avoid having ethnic/racial resentment grow within communitues in the UK but leaving these cases unaddressed hurts immigrant communities more.
Mohonky
Member
Again, what does this have to do with the thread?
The police, for reasons of racial tensions, classism and fear of reprisal from the accused and their associates (as well as many other issues), refuse to take many child abuse allegations seriously. It's sickening how vulnerable people are continually targeted because they know the police won't do anything about it.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Wh... I mean... we're talking about an epidemic of child exploitation where statements like:
and
...are key to the conversation. Police don't necessarily "ignore" these cases, they're inundated with trivial and frivolous reports driven by misinformation and hysteria that take their time and attention away from them.
Part of "identifying those at risk" is empowering them to identify themselves. Ms. Woodhouse, and those like her, should have been educated at a young age that there's no shame in reporting. That she is the only one who controls her body, and that anyone who attempts to pry that control from her should be exposed. We are failing her, and others in her position, by not making these topics a core part of early childhood education.
Avoiding false reports and empowering victims from a young age is incredibly critical to removing the stigma survivors face and catching the abusers before things reach the absurd levels we're seeing here.
CyclopsRock
Member
If you say so. I just don't recognise that definition of the term, and have no experience with its use. I can imagine there's a blurry area between reasonable and unreasonable behaviour, but I think where most people would consider that blurry area to be is a lot closer to actual, honest-to-god grooming than you fear it is - though I live in the UK, where this report's from.
genes? Let's also figure out who has the rapist genes, and the murderer genes, and thief genes
I mean, this isn't only happening in the UK. You have loverboys in the NL and so on. But nowhere has this been so widespread and have there been so many cases as in Britain. I'm frankly speechless that this has reached an almost epidemic level
SentientF35
Neo Member
I don't see an end to this where people don't get screwed over badly, unfortunately.
Well I think the way countries deal with it is quite telling.
Someone in this thread mentioned the financial incentive and they get accused of victim blaming.
When I was younger and loverboys became a thing we had a lot of information about it in school.
And the main take away was that these were not scary men that forced you into things. Instead they are friends and boyfriends that give you gifts and luxury.
They gradually move on from enticing to begging to threats.
Baby please I lost money and they will kill me if we don't get the money. Can you just sleep with this guy to solve it.
Talking about how that works is not victim blaming. It teaches young kids how the manipulation works.
Mohonky
Member
Not really understanding what is happening in this thread are you?
There is no confusion over what child grooming is, the authorities arent confused or being inundated with false reports and victims dont realise they are victims or able to recognise whats happen to them is wrong; its that the issue is being swept under a rug because of the politically sensitive nature of revealing the extent of problem and the ethnicity of the perpetrators.
Audioboxer
Member
I'm sorry but this isn't some sugar daddy epidemic. You might as well say the Catholic church is just boys looking up to their religious fathers for guidance when they "let them" molest and abuse them.
I think I reacted pretty tamely to a post suggesting the real thing to be concerned about here is undereducated or underprivileged females throwing themselves to be raped to earn a few thousand pounds.
Where is all the supposed money these victims are getting anyway? I don't tend to hear many get rich quick schemes from getting raped. Remember the post you refer to said this
Said in a topic with evidence of all the convictions, abuse, preying behaviour and all the girls and teenagers who cried out for help and got ignored. So, yeah, sorry if I don't think "financial incentives" are the real takeaway here.
I'm actually a bit surprised more people didn't catch that post and think what the hell? We're not talking about individuals selling some dodgy film/game DVDs at a car boot sale to earn some extra £. That post is implying out of all the thousands of victims, apparently, there is an underlying rise in "rape me/abuse me please" girls and teenagers going around to get some money. I'd like to see the evidence of that, thanks. Pretty disgusting claim to make in a topic like this without any evidence whatsoever, and therefore I do feel comfortable suggesting it was potentially victim blaming.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
The article itself is interested in discussing the same sort of macro-level solutions I'm bringing up, otherwise they wouldn't include things like:
Yes, this is even touchier because it involves ethnicity and religion, but limiting the discussion to just that is missing the greater context which enables and perpetuates this sort of crime. My points remain true when discussing systemic sexual abuse as a whole, and can be applied across almost all cases of such abuse. No discussion of the topic is complete without examining false flags and victim empowerment.
CalamityPixel
Member
Shits bad, Rotherham is still a pedocity. Everyone is fucking sick of it.
Somepeople have formed groups to bait pedophiles into "meetups" with fake girls, then they meet them at the place and live stream it on Facebook while outing the suspected pedo and his details. It's getting more common throughout the UK for these groups to do this. One happened in my local village a few weeks back.
Somepeople have formed groups to bait pedophiles into "meetups" with fake girls, then they meet them at the place and live stream it on Facebook while outing the suspected pedo and his details. It's getting more common throughout the UK for these groups to do this. One happened in my local village a few weeks back.
Rumblebones
Banned
I don't believe the authorities haven't done their jobs for fear of appearing to be racist. I think it is far more probable that they haven't done their jobs because of who would be implicated in these disgusting crimes.
Though that's not to say we don't need to have discussions as a society in terms of culture, religion and sex. Child abuse and misogyny are rampant and widespread and far too little is done about it - especially under a Tory government that believes deep cuts to public expenditure amount to sound economic strategy.
Though that's not to say we don't need to have discussions as a society in terms of culture, religion and sex. Child abuse and misogyny are rampant and widespread and far too little is done about it - especially under a Tory government that believes deep cuts to public expenditure amount to sound economic strategy.