GT4 va Forza vs Enthusia

Kutaragi Hirai said:
yeah and the proof is 1080i @ 60 fps...



please guys, buy GT4 and spend more than 12 hours in the game and you will be sure that GT series never been defeated and it will not be.

I got the Jpanese version, the only word can describe it = Masterpiece.
Click to expand...

Its not even true 1080i.

GT4 has already been dethroned in terms of physics, damage, handling and sounds. Dont be a hater of an objective opinion. No one here is (or should be) lamenting on GT4. Its just reality, nothing is perfect.
 
Ryudo said:
Its not even true 1080i.

GT4 has already been dethroned in terms of physics, damage, handling and sounds. Dont be a hater of an objective opinion. No one here is (or should be) lamenting on GT4. Its just reality, nothing is perfect.
Click to expand...

Please, do tell which already released games trump GT4 in these categories (handling and physics are DIRECTLY related for a sim racer IMO...)

BTW:
1080i + 60 fps :b
 
Gattsu25 said:
Please, do tell which already released games trump GT4 in these categories (handling and physics are DIRECTLY related for a sim racer IMO...)

BTW:
1080i + 60 fps :b
Click to expand...

GTR
F1 Challenge 99-02 mods like ECT2003, SCC, FIA97 (there are more)
RBR
CMR05
Live For Speed

1080i for a PS2 game is incredible, even if it is upconverted 480p mode.
 
Real 1080i. Explain?

the standard in 1920 x 1080. Up until very recently there have been few (ie None) cameras even capable of this. So if u r watch HDTV on a channel that broadcasts in 1080 it is most likely u r watching 1440*1080 because that is all the hardware has been capable of.


So if polyphony are cheating a bit on the horizontal spec they are not alone.
 
seanoff said:
Real 1080i. Explain?

the standard in 1920 x 1080. Up until very recently there have been few (ie None) cameras even capable of this. So if u r watch HDTV on a channel that broadcasts in 1080 it is most likely u r watching 1440*1080 because that is all the hardware has been capable of.

So if polyphony are cheating a bit on the horizontal spec they are not alone.
Click to expand...

What is real 1080i ?

If we are talking about the analog output (the component output), then PS2 is giving you a true 1080i output.

If we are talking about the rendering, the PS2 probably is using a lower pixel count on the width and field based rendering.

This is not really cheating.

The analogue interface is specified by number of lines and scan rate, not by pixels.

Even if we talk about the pixel width of the digital spec, the width can be 1280, 1440 and 1920.
 
SolidSnakex said:
They're also going to work on some kind of camera function that'll allow you to take a picture of a car and put it in the game. Don't know how that's going to work though.
Click to expand...

how bout Kaz works on getting ONLINE working first, like he said he was gonna do along time ago.

peace
 
After 30 hours of GT4, I've sold mine on eBay. It might look pretty, it might handle well (in a simplistic arcade kind of way) and it might sound good, but the whole game has let down by some horrendous design flaws and omissions. Single player is great, but they're destroyed multiplayer and myself and my friends have returned to GT3.

I played the Forza demo, it look blurred, dirty and brown. Four cars on track? Struggling to even reach 20 FPS at some points? Poor car control? The only people that think this game is stunning are the people who haven't played it yet. I seriously hope that they sort all these problems out otherwise they'll be a laughing stock.

Enthusia's car handling is spot on, and I do mean perfect! (see another thread I posted in) But without any tracks or car lists I can't make an objective decision on it yet. But I'll reiterate that again, the car handling is perfect.
 
marvelharvey said:
I played the Forza demo, it look blurred, dirty and brown. Four cars on track? Struggling to even reach 20 FPS at some points? Poor car control? The only people that think this game is stunning are the people who haven't played it yet. I seriously hope that they sort all these problems out otherwise they'll be a laughing stock.

Enthusia's car handling is spot on, and I do mean perfect! (see another thread I posted in) But without any tracks or car lists I can't make an objective decision on it yet. But I'll reiterate that again, the car handling is perfect.
Click to expand...

I hope you give another chance for Forza, since the demo you have is obviously a very early build. Forza will be all about online racing for me. I don't know how anyone can go back to racing single player after racing competitively online.. There's just nothing like it. Not to mention all the leaderboards and trying to set better track times.

Enthusia looks damn good in terms of physics, but i'm curious about the other aspects of the game such as damage modelling etc. It also probably doesn't have online play..If konami was smart they would port this to Xbox and PC (where they had a lot of success with PES4/WE8).
 
Hmm, am I that strange?

I've played the forza demo for more than a few hours. One of the games I'm really looking forward to. The graphics may be a bit blurry but the detail is stunning especially when you turn up the damage through the ini files. And the demo runs at 30fps, not 20...
 
Socreges said:
In terms of pictures that I've seen, Forza certainly looks better than Enthusia. And though I'm not sure about Forza, apparently Enthusia plays like [relative] poo. Not much encouraging about it.
Click to expand...

It's higher resolution, but Enthusia looks more detailed.
 
Here's some newer details on Enthusia:

Among the new features unveiled is the more realistic control scheme, which utilizes a non-linear pressure-sensitive throttle to give players complete management of their acceleration, deceleration, side brake, and clutch. Speaking of the side brake, it can be initiated independently of the regular brake via the R1 button while L1 controls the clutch. When used together, the two triggers will allow players to customize their own drift styles and increase the natural revs of the car more quickly. For less adept players, however, an automatic clutch will be an option as well.
Click to expand...

The biggest change to the game is probably the adjustment that's been made to Enthusia's VGS (Virtual Gravity System). As a quick refresher, the VGS is an onscreen guide that allows players to figure out which their car is feeling the most pressure so that they may turn appropriately while maintaining their speed. Originally the VGS icon was an arrow, but it has now been changed to a three-dimensional ball that moves from a central position to show the power and direction of the G-Forces working against the automobile.

The VGS has also been altered so that it can illustrate stress on the tires. In the beginning, the VGS icon would just flash when it started to reach its grip tolerance levels -- but now all four tires are shown individually onscreen so that users can gauge the timing of drifts more accurately. Players will even be able to ascertain each tire's specific angle.
Click to expand...

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/571/571155p1.html

Also IGN mentions that it'll have 50 courses.
 
I'll be really surprised if I find out that GT4/Forza/Enthusia can actually come close to what GTR can deliver in terms of graphics and physics..
 
m0dus said:
The only thing 'poor' about the car control is A) it doesn't hold your hand as you take each and every curve, and b) you can't expect to drive 120 mph into a curve and slam on the breaks and expect to clear it. that's what makes it a SIM
Click to expand...

The only thing poor about the car control is that is doesn't handle like a car, Forza is the least SIM game out of the three we're debating.
 
Gek54 said:
TOCA2 with the Pro Sim setting.
Click to expand...

TOCA2 is even more the winner in sim mode only. Pro sim oversteers too much compared to reality imo.
Still it's a shame for GT4 to be not as realistic as this game. I still can't believe how Codemasters did pull off such a great product with alot less cash and time than what Polyphony did invest in GT4...
 
Wyzdom said:
TOCA2 is even more the winner in sim mode only. Pro sim oversteers too much compared to reality imo.
Click to expand...

The oversteer seems pretty good to me. You have to be easy on the gas in the turns as you would in real life.
 
marvelharvey said:
The only thing poor about the car control is that is doesn't handle like a car, Forza is the least SIM game out of the three we're debating.
Click to expand...

particular examples where it doesn't handle like a car? sorry but it sounds like you're bullshitting.
 
Wyzdom said:
TOCA2 is even more the winner in sim mode only. Pro sim oversteers too much compared to reality imo.
Click to expand...

Trust me, with that kind of torque and hp those cars really oversteer when you turn with a foot on the gas. You're probably comparing the oversteer in Pro Sim to your experiences in a high hp passenger car which really handles nothing like the way a touring race car..

If you guys think TOCA2 was good (and it was) you really oughta try GTR on the PC.. It totally blows me away..
 
marvelharvey said:
The only thing poor about the car control is that is doesn't handle like a car, Forza is the least SIM game out of the three we're debating.
Click to expand...

You are right, Forza doesn't even come close to the realism that the GT series has.

They should add a drift mode...
 
Sjoerd said:
That's probably because the cars you drive have a steering wheel instead of a gamepad.
Click to expand...

:lol

P1010769.jpg
 
OK, here's the question: These games have shitloads of cars, but do they even have cockpits for these cars? I know no cockpit view in PGR2 made me cry..

If Forza, Enthusia and GT4 don't have detailed and authentic cockpits for each car, that means I'm not buying any of them them. I don't like to drive cars from any view except the cockpit. If no cockpit, then the hood. Last resort, bumper. I refuse to drive from behind unless it's a very arcade game..
 
So was that recent Forza wheel that was announced ever confirmed to be true FF? If not that's one thing that'll definetly hold back the realism compared to the other 2, both of which will have their own FF wheels.
 
tahrikmili said:
I'll be really surprised if I find out that GT4/Forza/Enthusia can actually come close to what GTR can deliver in terms of graphics and physics..
Click to expand...

I second this comment. So far it looks like Enthusia will be the closest.


Cheers,
bbyybb.
 
SolidSnakex said:
So was that recent Forza wheel that was announced ever confirmed to be true FF? If not that's one thing that'll definetly hold back the realism compared to the other 2, both of which will have their own FF wheels.
Click to expand...
MS France seems to think it's indeed a true FF wheel, but I have my doubts about the quality of the whole thing. Speedster is not really known for making great products.
 
If you can't flip the cars or make other cars flip, it's not a true simulator.

This is the sole reason why GT sucks. Now, if they adjusted it so shit rolled over or idiotically-tuned spoilers would launch your car, that would be totally fucking cool and I would buy a whole bunch of copies.
 
m0dus said:
yet you claim it "doesn't handle like a real car?" despite the fact that everyone else who has played it has lauded it for having the most realistic driving model thus far.
Click to expand...

I love comments like this.

Who is everyone? I have yet to hear one (1) respectable racecar driver with GT/GTR racing experience under their belt to try Forza and say it's realistic. All that has been said about its realism so far came from editor, programmers, PR and the like, which we all know is just as likely to be utter bullshit as it is likely to be the undivided truth.

Now, if one of these days Johnny Herbert said Forza rocks, I would buy it. But for now, I'm truly sceptic.
 
Sho Nuff said:
If you can't flip the cars or make other cars flip, it's not a true simulator.
Click to expand...
MS had the cars flipping in Forza, but they could not have all car manufacturers allow their cars to be flipped so it's been taken out. The cars can go up to 90 degrees, then they will stop flipping. It looks kinda weird.
 
m0dus said:
so when was the last time you slammed into a wall at 60 mph during a race, and bounced off harmlessly? Sorry, Forza is the TRUEST sim of the 3 we're debating. get it straight. :lol

Uh huh. The game was designed with input from ferrari, the vehicles exhibit the same quirks and flaws as their real-life counterparts, yet you claim it "doesn't handle like a real car?" despite the fact that everyone else who has played it has lauded it for having the most realistic driving model thus far. There is serious talk about how the application of actual racing tectonics will improve your performance. How arcade-like driving will result in wiping out, as opposed to other "sim" games that actually reward that behavior. And the game, so far, handles very similarly to Ferrari f355 challenge with the assists turned off--I'm sorry, bud, but unless you race Saleen F1's and fullbodied lemans prototypes, I still feel this game presents the most realistic driving model thus far.
Click to expand...

Forza doesnt even feature the best colision or damage physics seen in a game from what we have seen. Several racing games have been developed with input from top car manufactuers. Go back and play F355 next to the Forza demo, they are quite different.
 
m0dus said:
Here's the thing, though--as qualified engineers/designers who fashion the physics models put forth such claims, I will take them as proof enough. Agreed, it would be interesting to have a Lemans or a Ferrari test driver give his or her impression of the game's handling, but it's not to say that the people who actually DESIGN the cars (ala the Ferrari racing team) don't know a thing or two about 'realistic handling' themselves. :) as far as getting quotes from drivers, wait for the game to be finished before MS seeks them out--and trust me, they probably will. then people will claim they were paid to make those claims :lol
Click to expand...

Link to "qualified engineers/designers"????

So far Enthusia is the only one that I am aware of to have such acclaim from industry experts.
 
Gek54 said:
More new pics at GS
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, too bad these captures are awful :( Why did gamespot use a TV capture system card (with a sucky deinterlacer to boot) instead of framebuffer captures ?
 
Blimblim said:
Thanks for the info, too bad these captures are awful :( Why did gamespot use a TV capture system card (with a sucky deinterlacer to boot) instead of framebuffer captures ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, not the best captures in the world
 
Ryudo said:
I havent played forza with a wheel yet, but it handles much like any car i have driven.
Click to expand...

Dude, I want a car that I can drive with a gamepad...

That's the thing about GT4. It's not simply the physics, but the way it interacts with the force feedback steering wheel too.

"Input" from so-and-so doesn't mean as much as you think. There's nothing that says that what "Expert A" wants in the game is something the programmers can replicate accurately in the game.
 
Kutaragi Hirai said:
yeah and the proof is 1080i @ 60 fps...



please guys, buy GT4 and spend more than 12 hours in the game and you will be sure that GT series never been defeated and it will not be.

I got the Jpanese version, the only word can describe it = Masterpiece.
Click to expand...



Uhhh, I'm not so sure about REAL 1080i. You might want to read this thread:
Gran Turdismo 4 in 1080i and 5.1?

Pay special attention to ShePearl's posts starting on page 4.
 
marvelharvey said:
The only thing poor about the car control is that is doesn't handle like a car, Forza is the least SIM game out of the three we're debating.
Click to expand...


I've played the OXM Forza demo, and IMO, you don't know what in Hades you're talking about. Play a real sim like Sierra/Papyrus' Nascar Racing series then come back and talk to me. There was nothing "brown or dirty" about the demo I played. Maybe you mistook the Forza demo with Killzone. :lol

The handling in Forza, especially considering it's a demo, ON A CONSOLE no less, was pretty much spot on IMO.
 
Gek54 said:
Forza doesnt even feature the best colision or damage physics seen in a game from what we have seen. Several racing games have been developed with input from top car manufactuers. Go back and play F355 next to the Forza demo, they are quite different.
Click to expand...

The Forza demo is just that. The physics/damage model was not fully in place on the demo. In the final version, Forza will model damage, and your vehicle's performance will suffer accordingly.
 
GXAlan said:
Dude, I want a car that I can drive with a gamepad...

That's the thing about GT4. It's not simply the physics, but the way it interacts with the force feedback steering wheel too.

"Input" from so-and-so doesn't mean as much as you think. There's nothing that says that what "Expert A" wants in the game is something the programmers can replicate accurately in the game.
Click to expand...

Dude.... you missed my point. Now wheres my car ?
 
HokieJoe said:
I've played the OXM Forza demo, and IMO, you don't know what in Hades you're talking about. Play a real sim like Sierra/Papyrus' Nascar Racing series then come back and talk to me. There was nothing "brown or dirty" about the demo I played. Maybe you mistook the Forza demo with Killzone. :lol

The handling in Forza, especially considering it's a demo, ON A CONSOLE no less, was pretty much spot on IMO.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that, but I play Grand Prix Legends (Papyrus) every day, it's the most realistic physics I've ever had the pleasure to witness. I completely agree with you on Papyrus games, they are spot on.

Anyway, I'm afraid that I do know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to vehicle handling. If you clicked on the link I provided in my post, you'll see that I race cars myself. If you didn't see the pics I provided here they are again:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled4.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled3.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled2.bmp

I deliberately didn't include some of my next photos because I didn't want to make the GAF community jealous. But since people seem to be in need of further proof of why I have such an opinion on driving simulations, I'll include some more information and photos.

I've raced in: Alfa33, Ginetta G4, Formula First, Radical Club Sport and Radical SR3. (A nice mixture of weights, engine power, FF, FR and MR). On the road I drive a 540bhp Ultima Sport (you can read about the world record car here: http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/record.html - obviously this red one isn't my car) But this is...

Here I am in my Ultima:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/P1010241.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/Image1_1.jpg

Me at a test day at Brands Hatch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/P1010240.jpg

View from within the car at Rockingham Speedway (UK)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/image2.jpg

Le Mans Car Park 2004
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/CIMG0049.jpg

Me in my Ginetta G4 (sadly sold)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/maxrace.jpg

My No.77 Radical (sadly sold)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/RadSmall2.jpg

And finally, me at the Tokyo Game Show winning the 'fastest lap' competition on Enthusia:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled.bmp

I’m certainly not an Ayrton Senna, but I’ve been racing in someform or another since I was 7 (I’m now 30). Anyway, bringing this post back on topic (and away from what I get up to in my spare time), the Papyrus games, GTR, and Enthusia all go out of their way to simulate what happens in the real world, and do it perfectly, that is who cars handle! In games such as GT4, Forza and Project Gotham, the developers have strived (and succeeded) to create games where the cars handle how the average joe ‘thinks’ race cars behave.Ultimately, this is why they are mass-market success, otherwise they’d alienate most of the potential purchasers and lose sales.

Anyway, it’s late (where I live) so I’m off to bed.
 
marvelharvey said:
Funny you should mention that, but I play Grand Prix Legends (Papyrus) every day, it's the most realistic physics I've ever had the pleasure to witness. I completely agree with you on Papyrus games, they are spot on.

....

I’m certainly not an Ayrton Senna, but I’ve been racing in someform or another since I was 7 (I’m now 30). Anyway, bringing this post back on topic (and away from what I get up to in my spare time), the Papyrus games, GTR, and Enthusia all go out of their way to simulate what happens in the real world, and do it perfectly, that is who cars handle! In games such as GT4, Forza and Project Gotham, the developers have strived (and succeeded) to create games where the cars handle how the average joe ‘thinks’ race cars behave.Ultimately, this is why they are mass-market success, otherwise they’d alienate most of the potential purchasers and lose sales.

Anyway, it’s late (where I live) so I’m off to bed.
Click to expand...

This man is wise, listen to him! And then bow to the greatness that is Papyrus.
 
marvelharvey said:
Funny you should mention that, but I play Grand Prix Legends (Papyrus) every day, it's the most realistic physics I've ever had the pleasure to witness. I completely agree with you on Papyrus games, they are spot on.

Anyway, I'm afraid that I do know exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to vehicle handling. If you clicked on the link I provided in my post, you'll see that I race cars myself. If you didn't see the pics I provided here they are again:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled4.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled3.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled2.bmp

I deliberately didn't include some of my next photos because I didn't want to make the GAF community jealous. But since people seem to be in need of further proof of why I have such an opinion on driving simulations, I'll include some more information and photos.

I've raced in: Alfa33, Ginetta G4, Formula First, Radical Club Sport and Radical SR3. (A nice mixture of weights, engine power, FF, FR and MR). On the road I drive a 540bhp Ultima Sport (you can read about the world record car here: http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/record.html - obviously this red one isn't my car) But this is...

Here I am in my Ultima:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/P1010241.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/Image1_1.jpg

Me at a test day at Brands Hatch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/P1010240.jpg

View from within the car at Rockingham Speedway (UK)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/image2.jpg

Le Mans Car Park 2004
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/CIMG0049.jpg

Me in my Ginetta G4 (sadly sold)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/maxrace.jpg

My No.77 Radical (sadly sold)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/RadSmall2.jpg

And finally, me at the Tokyo Game Show winning the 'fastest lap' competition on Enthusia:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/marvelharvey/untitled.bmp

I’m certainly not an Ayrton Senna, but I’ve been racing in someform or another since I was 7 (I’m now 30). Anyway, bringing this post back on topic (and away from what I get up to in my spare time), the Papyrus games, GTR, and Enthusia all go out of their way to simulate what happens in the real world, and do it perfectly, that is who cars handle! In games such as GT4, Forza and Project Gotham, the developers have strived (and succeeded) to create games where the cars handle how the average joe ‘thinks’ race cars behave.Ultimately, this is why they are mass-market success, otherwise they’d alienate most of the potential purchasers and lose sales.

Anyway, it’s late (where I live) so I’m off to bed.
Click to expand...

I respect what you have to say, but it looks like you are from one small cross-section of the racing scene. Is this the case ? do you only drive semi GT and open cars ? What about 4WD rally cars or exotics ?

Interested to know more about you, do you have any videos ? that would be cool.
 
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