Comfort_Eagle
Banned
Im so buying this just to spite you and you bizzare Konami worship. They didnt release it in the states, tough shit for them.
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Guitar Hero is derivative pablum!
- Thread starter JackFrost2012
- Start date
I'm excited to pick this up, the difficulty of getting Guitar Freaks releases was pretty frustrating, and I didn't have anyone to play with (which is really important in my book), so it was hard to keep on keepin' on. I think part of what appeals to me here is that it's kind of similar, though it sounds like it's a bit more "newb" friendly, and it'll be easier to get friends hooked on and playing. To play GF or IIDX, it was lug my PSX/PS2, controllers, and games, all over, this it's just the controller and the game. And they can easily obtain it to play themselves. I introduced a few friends to IIDX all of whom wished they could get it without modding or importing a PS2. They're all going to buy the US release. Konami has fucked this up pretty bad. I can see why they wouldn't bring Para Para Paradise over, but with very limited money spent translating and doing a limited print of controllers, they could've brought over lots of cool Bemani stuff year ago, when it was at its peak.
I hope that Konami does bring some GF over here, because I'm pretty sure that "Jet World" is better than every song in Guitar Hero.
I hope that Konami does bring some GF over here, because I'm pretty sure that "Jet World" is better than every song in Guitar Hero.
bobbyconover
Member
Comfort_Eagle said:
Who? I wish I had so much money laying around that I could spare $70 to make someone mad (who actually wouldn't be mad at all, going by every post to this thread so far) on an internet forum.
Lambtron said:
It certainly rocks. Something kinda funny, by the way - there was a TMNT: Turtles in Time thread yesterday/earlier today in which several people heavily praised its music and became quite upset upon hearing that it had been replaced (due to "licensing issues," supposedly) in the version included with the latest console TMNT game. The guy who wrote all of that music also wrote almost every song in the first two Guitar Freaks games (including Jet World), and continues to contribute at least a few songs to each mix, all of which are in the same rockin' spirit as those classic TMNT tunes everyone's clamoring for. And people say Guitar Freaks is nothing but J-Pop!
Greenpanda
Banned
JackFrost2012 said:
Everytime someone jizzed over the "walking on the ceiling" part of the Forest Temple in Zelda OoT, I felt bad for poor Shining the Holy Ark, which had a dungeon with the same gimmick, and, IMO, developed it even better than the Forest Temple. Don't get me wrong, the Zelda dungeon is well-done and I wouldn't consider it a "rip-off" of StHA. (For one thing, the mechanic is not particularly outlandish; I'm sure many people could have thought it up independently of one another.) But because I'd already played through the awesome Holy Ark dungeon, the Forest Temple was certainly never as mind-blowing to me as it seemed to be to a lot of other people.
And there's Tactics Ogre -> FF Tactics, obviously, but that's a rather different case since it's Super Famous Game Designer Matsuno "taking" his own game design from himself
.edit: Fire Emblem -> Shining Force, at least for US audiences
JackFrost2012
Banned
Okay, here's the thing: Bobby, Exxy, sp0rks, Drinky, and I are all Guitar Freaks fans...and we've also all gone out of our way in this thread to mention that we're incredibly supportive of Guitar Hero, we're happy it's coming out, and we're looking forward to playing it.
Meanwhile, a lot of the Guitar Hero fans are going out of their way to bash Guitar Freaks as utter shit and to totally misrepresent its music. Bobby mentions several of the Western bands that have gotten Guitar Freaks songs (years before Guitar Hero ever entered the scene). Guitar Freaks is also based around licensed music from Japanese ROCK bans -- not J-Pop, but J-ROCK, which has very few pirouettes and a whole fuck of a lot of fucking awesome guitar riffs. Guitar Freaks is about playing the guitar--but in addition to balls-to-the-wall hair metal, it also has poppy modern guitar-based rock music, emo/indie, acoustic ballads, flamenco, etc. etc. V, for example, added the dueling-guitar song that was used on the Pulp Fiction soundtrack (EDIT: Bobby informs me this is Misirlou by Dick Dale). It's not "rock," but who wouldn't want to hit those incredible 16th note trills? Harmonix made the right decision for their first game in the U.S. market, but Guitar Freaks' breadth of guitar music is awesome in its own special way.
And I did enjoy playing Andrew W.K.'s Party Hard, I've also discovered a lot of my very favorite Japanese bands for the first time by playing a Guitar Freaks cover. Both sides of the the known vs. unknown argument are valid; however, as Harmonix included 8 "garage" bands in Guitar Hero as secret songs, I think they see both sides of that argument. Hopefully any Guitar Hero expansion packs will expand the breadth of the type of available music.
In any case, I made this thread precisely because of the insane nationalistic pride Guitar Hero engenders, and the insane way I'm told to "shut up" if I mention Guitar Freaks, like I'm some kind of psycho nut for acknowledging this other game exists. Even Mr. Wacky Jappy himself, Drinky Crow, hasn't played that card, cause it doesn't make any sense here. It's not about Japan vs. America, it's not about BEMANI vs. Harmonix. Really, it's not about "vs." at all.
Saying "Once you've played Guitar Hero, you'll never want to play Guitar Freaks again" is about as stupid and closeminded as saying, "Once you listen to Nirvana, you'll never want to listen to the Pixies again." And if you haven't actually listened to the Pixies, then you sound like an EXTRA stupid wanker, and not just a bizarrely close-minded one.
Finally, one place where Harmonix has really dropped the ball with Guitar Hero gameplay wise is with online ranking and online play, something that's been in Guitar Freaks for the past few mixes. This is especially odd as Amplitude had online features in spades and was one of the first games ever to support the PS2 online adapter. Not being able to compare my scores or rock a duet with friends online is a major oversight. And if it's true that two guitars both play the exact same notes, then their multiplayer is hella shoddy, too. Rocking out with a friend is about making a cool song together, not just playing the one-player song together at the same time. Boo to that.
RANT RANT RANT!
Meanwhile, a lot of the Guitar Hero fans are going out of their way to bash Guitar Freaks as utter shit and to totally misrepresent its music. Bobby mentions several of the Western bands that have gotten Guitar Freaks songs (years before Guitar Hero ever entered the scene). Guitar Freaks is also based around licensed music from Japanese ROCK bans -- not J-Pop, but J-ROCK, which has very few pirouettes and a whole fuck of a lot of fucking awesome guitar riffs. Guitar Freaks is about playing the guitar--but in addition to balls-to-the-wall hair metal, it also has poppy modern guitar-based rock music, emo/indie, acoustic ballads, flamenco, etc. etc. V, for example, added the dueling-guitar song that was used on the Pulp Fiction soundtrack (EDIT: Bobby informs me this is Misirlou by Dick Dale). It's not "rock," but who wouldn't want to hit those incredible 16th note trills? Harmonix made the right decision for their first game in the U.S. market, but Guitar Freaks' breadth of guitar music is awesome in its own special way.
And I did enjoy playing Andrew W.K.'s Party Hard, I've also discovered a lot of my very favorite Japanese bands for the first time by playing a Guitar Freaks cover. Both sides of the the known vs. unknown argument are valid; however, as Harmonix included 8 "garage" bands in Guitar Hero as secret songs, I think they see both sides of that argument. Hopefully any Guitar Hero expansion packs will expand the breadth of the type of available music.
In any case, I made this thread precisely because of the insane nationalistic pride Guitar Hero engenders, and the insane way I'm told to "shut up" if I mention Guitar Freaks, like I'm some kind of psycho nut for acknowledging this other game exists. Even Mr. Wacky Jappy himself, Drinky Crow, hasn't played that card, cause it doesn't make any sense here. It's not about Japan vs. America, it's not about BEMANI vs. Harmonix. Really, it's not about "vs." at all.
Saying "Once you've played Guitar Hero, you'll never want to play Guitar Freaks again" is about as stupid and closeminded as saying, "Once you listen to Nirvana, you'll never want to listen to the Pixies again." And if you haven't actually listened to the Pixies, then you sound like an EXTRA stupid wanker, and not just a bizarrely close-minded one.
Finally, one place where Harmonix has really dropped the ball with Guitar Hero gameplay wise is with online ranking and online play, something that's been in Guitar Freaks for the past few mixes. This is especially odd as Amplitude had online features in spades and was one of the first games ever to support the PS2 online adapter. Not being able to compare my scores or rock a duet with friends online is a major oversight. And if it's true that two guitars both play the exact same notes, then their multiplayer is hella shoddy, too. Rocking out with a friend is about making a cool song together, not just playing the one-player song together at the same time. Boo to that.
RANT RANT RANT!
JackFrost2012
Banned
skip said:
Okay, thanks for squashing that rumor then! Still, I can't play with you online.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
What, you forgot someone. I hope you're not lumping me with the GF hating crowd when I specifically mentioned that I was a big fan of it.JackFrost2012 said:
My point being, GH has done what Konami hasn't. It's very sad to see Konami ignore one of their own titles but at the same time hopefully GH will prove to them that there is yet an audience for Guitar Freaks.
EDIT: I doubt that GF isn't a well known franchise among reviewers. Even though it's not out here in full force I know it was in the arcades and is well known among the Bemani crowds.
bobbyconover said:
To justify spending all that money on mocap and getting the avatar's hands right on, presumably. And to not only immerse the player in a venue, but give the surrounding watchers more visual (or, in Harmonix's words, emotional) stimulation. It's precisely what Konami forgot to include when they bit off so much of Parappa's game, and what it'd take Harmonix until Karaoke to remember themselves. Compared to Guitar Hero, watching someone play a Bemani game is like watching them play Greensleeves off of sheet music (with a 2-state animation of a panda bear rolling its eyes or a monkey patting its belly in the background) -- it may be guitar, and it may be technically precise, but it's extremely clinical, and it's not rock'n'roll.
bobbyconover said:
If they have overdone it, it's out of necessity -- getting the casuals to pick up a $70 peripheral game is a hell of a lot harder than winning over the salty Bemani set (especially in light of the stellar successes of Freq and Amp, which were no less star-studded), and every casual with whom I've talked about the game was much more concerned with the names on the soundtrack than the intuitiveness of the scoring system. But, for the fans, they have the requisite Freezepop song, and over 50% more unlockables from Harmonix staff and friends (Sail Your Ship By, coincidentally, is one of my favorites to play of the lot -- starts off slow, but turns vaguely Polvo/math rock-y a quarter of the way in), and the contest winner. [edit: PS - Harmonix take a swipe at themselves and the song selection list in the final game over screen, too, so it's not as though they're unware.]
It's hard to tell the exact ratio of staff bands without poring over the manual (or unlocking every last one of the bonus tracks -- it mentions the staff relationship on the loading screen of the indies), but it's a high percentage.
The only thing that's bothered me so far is the fact that, unlike Amp (can't recall if Freq did it), the tiered playlist doesn't change in the various difficulty levels. I understand that the highest tiered songs were set up to be more difficult than the lower, but it's still a slog to have to start at I Wanna Be Sedated on all 4 levels just to unlock everything.
bobbyconover
Member
border said:
Well, ok. We could argue the exact details and timeline endlessly, but I think it's safe to say that being included in Frequency gave a huge boost to the band, and that they would most likely not have been included at all had their main songwriter not worked for Harmonix. Once a prominent member of a practically unknown band joins a development team and starts sticking his own music into his own games, I'd say that can be classified as in-house. But whatever -- the point I was trying to make was that a song from a very unknown (compared to David Bowie) band beat the odds and became a huge popular favorite despite the apparent advantages that the A-list artists had, and that many fans of the series now look forward to their tracks in every subsequent Harmonix game.
Were you into Freezepop before Frequency came out? I'm guessing not, but it sounds like you are now. I'd say that's pretty decent proof that rhythm games aren't made and broken on the pre-existing popularity of their artists alone. If anything, it shows how awesome a venue rhythm games can be for showcasing unknown new talent. I would never argue that no popular cover songs should be included in rhythm games -- that'd be suicidal. I just don't agree that more licensed tracks make a game inherently better than ones with more of an emphasis on original music, as some people have been claiming.
Greenpanda
Banned
brandonnn said:
Good one.
JackFrost2012
Banned
brandonnn said:
Snood added those cute little characters though! Puzzle Bobble completely fails to give me a fun and exciting character-based feeling! Those bubbles are so boring and all look exactly the same! In any case, Taito deserved to have Puzzle Bobble ripped off because they failed to leverage their IP on the Macintosh and PC platforms! You're just jealous because Snood has succeeded where Puzzle Bobble failed! USA! USA! USA!
I have no problem with the Guitar Hero love--I've been one of the original and most vocal supporters of the game since I broke into Harmonix's booth at E3 and kicked off members of Gibson guitar manufacturing to demand to play.
What I don't get is the Guitar Freaks hate. When the game isn't being ignored, it's being loudly and vocally derided, despite the fact that if not for Guitar Freaks, Guitar Hero would not exist. I don't see what being an asshole about the Other Guitar Game accomplishes other than make you look like a close-minded prick.
Ah, well. Chalk this up to another realistic simulation of the rock star lifestyle--love the music, but hate the fans.
JackFrost2012 said:
Where are you seeing Guitar Freaks hate?
Look at these points summarizing this thread:
1) Game reviews are primarily aimed at casuals that do not pay much attention to imports. Mentioning Guitar Freaks in a review would give them no point of reference concerning Guitar Hero.
2) Harmonix has gotten squirmy when discussing Guitar Freaks in relation to their game. If this is the case, don't you think they'd have told the big reviewers to not make the comparison in their reviews? If they're cautious to talk about it in private discussions, do you think they want it splashed all over an EGM review?
There's no reason that Guitar Freaks should be mentioned in a Guitar Hero review, unless its in a magazine that gives good coverage to both import and domestic games. Guitar Freaks is a non-entity to 95% of gamers.
JackFrost2012
Banned
White Man said:
Sorry, somewhere along the line, I switched from talking about comments in reviews to comments in this thread. Also, a lot of the non-mentioning of Guitar Freaks seems to be passive-aggressive hatred for the game--sl1p here works for 1up, and he won't stop talking about how much Guitar Freaks sucked in this one dream he had where you had to play the saxophone. Sucked!
I agree that it doesn't make much sense to mention Guitar Freaks in reviews--I just find it weird that Guitar Hero fans get so defensive whenever Guitar Freaks comes up. It seems odd that they feel the need to dismiss a game that's 90% the same and that they'd probably enjoy 90% as much, and I don't really understand the reasons why. You'd think that people would be interested in checking out a game a lot like their self-proclaimed GOTY, but instead, you get a lot of anti-Japan bizarro macho posturing.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
Well I wouldn't call it hate, 'annoyed' would fit the bill however. A lot of Guitar Freak fans much like myself were sad that the only exposure GF has received here has been the random imported arcade cabinet. Luckily I was able to play a friend's imported collection of Bemani games with GF included so at least I was able to enjoy the game in a more extended manner. Like I said previously, I'm glad Harmonix was able to step up to the plate when Konami failed to do so. If and when they bring out a GF title on these shores I won't even care if it supports the GH controller. I would simply be happy seeing the game being released, period.
Calling people 'close-minded' is a bit silly; you can't blame the GH fans for their lack of exposure to GF due to Konami not releasing the game here. Most of them arenÂ’t piles of cash who want to put up with importing an expensive title from Japan that they may not fully understand. I agree that they should research GF and I openly encourage my GH loving brethren to check out the game that inspired the title that we're enjoying currently.
Calling people 'close-minded' is a bit silly; you can't blame the GH fans for their lack of exposure to GF due to Konami not releasing the game here. Most of them arenÂ’t piles of cash who want to put up with importing an expensive title from Japan that they may not fully understand. I agree that they should research GF and I openly encourage my GH loving brethren to check out the game that inspired the title that we're enjoying currently.
White Man said:
Just for clarity, exxy said it was Red Octane that bristled at the comparison.
Harmonix are quite openly fans of all of rhythm-game history -- their in-studio library is amazingly well stocked with even the most obscure titles. This is nothing like a secretive ill intentioned rock'n'roll swindle on their part. They were approached to do a guitar game, and they did a really good one.
Also, for the record, when I asked a Red Octane producer what GH offered over GF, he said GH didn't have a lot of j-pop. So there's that.
Drinky.
You and me at IZ in Issaquah this weekend. We'll rock out on Guitar Freaks.
I haven't played in months.
But I do think not acknowledging previous titles is bullshit.
I was frigging pissed one year at my school. DigiPen had a preview day for everyone to go around looking at the stuff groups had made so far. One game that was running on a few computers was Ikaruga with RGB instead of BW. I was watching this Mexican/Ranchero Robot Tactics game next to it and just kept hearing person after person comment on how innovative the Ikaruga knock-off was. It was bullshit, but what could I do? Kindly tell every person that the game is just a clone of a recently released shooter?
Also, just for the record:
Beatmania came out before DDR, and it's from the same company. IIDX is not ripping off DDR! *argh*
I'm sorry. I hate idiots.
Also... damn the 1AM backup!
You and me at IZ in Issaquah this weekend. We'll rock out on Guitar Freaks.
I haven't played in months.
But I do think not acknowledging previous titles is bullshit.
I was frigging pissed one year at my school. DigiPen had a preview day for everyone to go around looking at the stuff groups had made so far. One game that was running on a few computers was Ikaruga with RGB instead of BW. I was watching this Mexican/Ranchero Robot Tactics game next to it and just kept hearing person after person comment on how innovative the Ikaruga knock-off was. It was bullshit, but what could I do? Kindly tell every person that the game is just a clone of a recently released shooter?
Also, just for the record:
Beatmania came out before DDR, and it's from the same company. IIDX is not ripping off DDR! *argh*
I'm sorry. I hate idiots.
Also... damn the 1AM backup!
Rummy Bunnz
Member
I've seen numerous shitty 30 second film reviews on the local news where they manage to mention if a movie's based on/a rip off of a foreign film. Yeah, they're probably just regurgitating info they got from a press kit, but if that dried up old bitch on the UPN news can spend a few seconds informing her viewers that the film she's reviewing is an adaptation of something they've never heard of I don't see why the gaming press can't do the same.White Man said:
95% of gamers just look at the score + pics and ignore the text. I don't think the folks who bother to read are going to be confused if there's a line or two mentioning GF in a GH review. If that's clutter then so's most review text - may as well just tell folks how many dismemberments, car crashes and titties you'll see over the course of the game and then tack on a score, since that's all most guys care about.
JackFrost2012
Banned
demi said:
I still stand by that quote--and as you may have noticed, Guitar Hero is getting great reviews from all Ziff mags.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
Good man!
FINALFANTASYDOG
Member
JackFrost2012 said:
Entirely off topic, but does Vestal or anyone know of any page that lists all guitar freaks songs and who the original artist was for the song? The official homepage is really clubersome and doesn't seem to have much mention of original artists.
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
I don't know why people are bitching because Guitar Hero doesn't have all the features of Guitar Freaks -- ala online matchmaking, stats, etc. Uh, this is the first release of this game, it hasn't been tried in the US before, there's no market to prove to whoever's funding that "Hey, we should give them $XXX because, well, online is COOL."
No, that stuff will come in the sequel. The fact that Guitar Hero has as much as it does is impressive, and criticizing it for not having advanced features, especially regarding online, is not fair. Amplitude is mentioned as being one of the first games to support the online adaptor for PS2 -- well, it was also a sequel, too. It could take that chance.
Give Harmonix time.
No, that stuff will come in the sequel. The fact that Guitar Hero has as much as it does is impressive, and criticizing it for not having advanced features, especially regarding online, is not fair. Amplitude is mentioned as being one of the first games to support the online adaptor for PS2 -- well, it was also a sequel, too. It could take that chance.
Give Harmonix time.
bobbyconover
Member
eXxy said:
Except that we're not criticizing Guitar Hero so much as saying "these are some reasons why Guitar Freaks doesn't suck, and is still totally worth checking out." Like Jackfrost said, we're all excited about Guitar Hero here -- this thread is intended to be a defense of Guitar Freaks, not an attack on Guitar Hero. If people are going to claim that Guitar Hero utterly trounces Guitar Freaks, it's only natural that some of us should pop up and point out the advantages Guitar Freaks still holds over it.
Frequency supported it too, though!
Marty Chinn
Member
I picked up the game today finally but I'm just not digging the game so far. I really am disliking the guitar right now. The extra buttons is really making the guitar feel weird for me with trying to just play based on tactile feel. Then there's the bump on the middle key, which I understand is there so you can tell where your fingers are, but its really irritating my finger since I'm so used to Guitar Freaks. I really want to like the game, but the guitar is throwing me off right now and I'm starting to regret my purchase.
the year 20XX
Member
eXxy said:
It was mentioned earlier-- Frequency actually had online play. Plus an online Frequency demo was bundled with every nw adapter.
bobbyconover
Member
sp0rsk said:
There's an "arcadestyle controller" (or ASC as us too-hardcore Bemani nuts call it) coming out, but that'll still have the standard 3 button layout. And if the Pop'n Music and Beatmania IIDX ASCs are any indication, it'll be huge and awesome and cost 300 bucks.
bobbyconover said:
I figured that, but i mean they gave the CS style pop'n controller a mini revamp i was kinda hoping they would do the same for guitar freaks. I've heard the GF controller kinda sucks. I wish they would revamp the Drum mania controller too, i hate hitting plastic all the time -_-
bobbyconover
Member
Tain said:
If it's too loud TURN THE GAME UP, sucka!
Seriously though, I doubt the real arcade versions are any less obnoxious sounding when smacked in a silent room. It's just hard to tell in a bustling arcade! (Yes I'm bending over backwards to justify my $300 purchase, shut up.)
FoxhoundNL
Member
Will Guitar Hero ever be released in Europe?
And if not, will the NTSC version work with Magic Swap?
And if not, will the NTSC version work with Magic Swap?
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