nillapuddin
Member
*Greencastle post*
(falls in love with Halo all over again
)
(falls in love with Halo all over again
no homo
-
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Halo Lore Thread
- Thread starter Korten
- Start date
dragonelite
Member
Where's that last gif from?
MrGreencastle
Member
Thanks!
Cracked armour means new armour?
I wish
From the Librarian cutscene in Halo 4. Very cryptic, that. I found it even more interesting if you don't pay attention to what the Librarian is saying to you and just watch the images on-screen. I found it cool to see that the figure almost looks like Chief at first before looking up. Would be cool to get the Chief's "Master Sword" via a kickass Forerunner Combat Skin (like the Didact's). Now that he's "upgraded" by Librarian, it could make sense, and I mean, 343GS always made fun of how bad Chief's is in Halo CE.
Around here is when the video starts, that particular part is right at the end, just before you see the Chief again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o-4r_5AE6D4#t=55
Munki
Member
Thanks!
Cracked armour means new armour?
I wish
From the Librarian cutscene in Halo 4. Very cryptic, that. I found it even more interesting if you don't pay attention to what the Librarian is saying to you and just watch the images on-screen. I found it cool to see that the figure almost looks like Chief at first before looking up. Would be cool to get the Chief's "Master Sword" via a kickass Forerunner Combat Skin (like the Didact's). Now that he's "upgraded" by Librarian, it could make sense, and I mean, 343GS always made fun of how bad Chief's is in Halo CE.
Around here is when the video starts, that particular part is right at the end, just before you see the Chief again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o-4r_5AE6D4#t=55
So does the Librarian accelerate MC's evolution to a point where humans were before they were wiped out by the Forerunner? Or has she accelerated him to the absolute pinnacle of human evolution?
GringoSuave89
Banned
It's ambiguous. I think the additions to his body from the SPARTAN Program made them more like the Forerunners (it is Halsey's specialty) but not completely. As for what the Librarian did to him, I just assumed it was an immunity to the Composer. But who knows?
Someone on here.
MrGreencastle
Member
Halsey did much of the work to get him to that point, but Librarian seem to accelerate it even further.
Well Librarian certainly implies that there's more "gifts" that exist within Chief/Humanity's geneplan - but that his must be unlocked, his evolution accelerated:
Chief doesn't even ask what it will do to him, just whether it will help him defeat the Didact - not unlike how Halsey "accelerated" the evolution of all her Spartans. There's a moment in Silentium where we see Catalog's (an entity composed of Juridicals - "investigators" for the Forerunner society) observations of the beginnings of Librarian's plan for the humans.
From Silentium:
To me, I feel like Librarian - the Lifeshaper - is acting in a manner very reminiscent to Halsey when she "did what she could" to save humanity in creating the Spartans. Humanity wouldn't exist without Halsey's work, without Librarian's work.
I feel like it is implied she uses a Composer to turn the humans into "nutrients" that will survive the effects of the Halo array, their genetics and memories passed down through the ages in Earth-life to humanity. "Seeds" leading to an eventuality. The purple flame imagery and nutrients is in great contrast to how we see the UrDidact (from Halo 4) use the Composer - it consumes the flesh of the people it touches, turning the rest into ashes, burning them in red flame, and degrading them into abominations for his Promethean army that he wishes to use to fight the Flood - whenever they inevitably return.
Some more info. SPOILERS:
UrDidact's war against ancient humanity eventually lead to him to resenting them. The Librarian wanted to eradicate humanity as a response to their attacks on their planets. UrDidact felt that they should heed to Mantle, in that it shelters all. He convinces the Master Builder and Librarian that they must de-evolve humans to prevent them from rising up against them again. Though they later learned that humans weren't just warring with the Forerunners, they were sterilizing planets infected by the Flood, acting as Guardians themselves, the ancient humans had actually somehow succeeded in driving the Flood out of the galaxy at some point before their war with the Forerunners. UrDidact believed that their attempts to "rise up" were the reason why the Flood came to them in the first place.
The council, sans Didact:
When the Flood returned, and the Forerunners were on the brink of defeat having exhausted almost every solution they tried, they decided to use Halo. The UrDidact did not believe in the use of the Halo Array, he believed wiping the galaxy of life was the greatest crime against the Mantle. That plan was made by the Master Builder - probably the most powerful Forerunner in existence at the time, the one responsible for designing and building the two Arks and their Halo arrays, and eventually a considerable political manipulator.
UrDidact felt that he could combat the Flood, and that the rest of life could continue on in sanctuaries like Requiem - Shield Worlds that were a part of his plan, but he never got the chance to put in motion those plans, as his army was to be built from the remains of the humans gathered via his use of the Composer.
As a response for destroying "her" humans, Librarian - his wife - "betrays" him, and locks him away in his Cryptum at the center of Requiem to meditate within the memories and experiences of all living things - The Domain, like speaking with "god". She believes that in his Cryptum, over time, he would learn to love the humans as she does, and that eventually he will help them achieve their place as Reclaimers, inheriting the right to protect all life - the Mantle - and use Forerunner technologies, and regain their lost evolutionary plan to hopefully defeat the Flood.
An excerpt from another time when UrDidact went into exile in his Cyptum, after his Shield World plan had been denied by his wife, and the council:
Unfortunately near the end of carrying out her plans, Librarian learns from the Gravemind that the Domain is Precursor technology, that the activation of the Halos will destroy it. So UrDidact never gets the chance to meditate connected to the Domain, and instead only gets to ruminate in his own twisted thoughts for near-eternity - until Chief lets him out in Halo 4, that is.
So when he awakes and sees that humans are not even powerful enough to control the Covenant, he freaks. Partly because he learned to hate humans in his own campaign, party because he had been pushed to the extreme by his conversations with the Gravemind, and partly because he also feels he needs to protect the galaxy from the Flood, that he is the last of the Forerunners and must do what he can to stop them. That he and he alone is the Guardian that is needed, that is required. It's just unfortunate that he wants to accomplish this in the "kindness" of Composing humans to act as both a punishment and his solution.
So, to sum it up, 3 of most powerful figures in Forerunner time, the effective "centre" of the Forerunner society's council - The Ecumene Council - each had their own idea of what to do to defeat the Flood:
Master Builder: Halo Array is the only solution. The only way to save life from the Flood, is to remove the life on which they feed. Though he grants Librarian space for her Conservation Measure.
Librarian: Conservation Measure, she agrees with Master Builder, coming up with much of the principle of the effects of the Halo Array in the first place, but goes further and tries to save as much as she can with the Libraries and Indexes. Believes Humans are the next to act as the galaxy's protectors, and uses her "genesongs" to ensure that it will happen.
UrDidact: Shield Installations with a Composed-human "slave" army is his solution in Prometheans, he disagrees with both his wife Librarian and Master Builder. Believes that Forerunners, and Forerunners alone should be the ones who protect the galaxy.
The terminals are a really beautiful recount of this story, though there are some absent perspectives and events:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvrVBwFxRE8
One interpretation that I like is that the Mantle is sort of the embodiment of the most advanced genetics - the DNA of the Forerunners in a sense - and the caretaker-like moral responsibility that should follow within those who are the "strongest". The passing of the Mantle being the literal passing of the advanced genetics from one advanced society to the next. Master Chief is certainly on that path, it seems, becoming the caretaker of the galaxy, maybe "carrying" that Mantle, that responsibility. Perhaps somewhat symbolically, we see Chief in his "jedi robe" in the Halo 5 teaser from E3. A mantle is a type of over-hood that goes over a robe or cloak, too, from wiki: A mantle (from mantellum, the Latin term for a cloak) is a type of loose garment usually worn over indoor clothing to serve the same purpose as an overcoat. He is literally wearing a mantle, the responsibility, on his shoulders.
Mantle is the top, hood part:
It would interesting to see if, through his actions, Chief could ever "convince" UrDidact that humanity - at least Spartans (or him, specifically) - are the true inheritors of that caretaker responsibility, rather than killing him (assuming he isn't dead). If he could show UrDidact a reflection of his older self, almost becoming an embodiment of IsoDidact("goodguy"), in a way a "bridge" between Forerunner and Humanity. To "turn" Darth Vader back, as it were. Perhaps the only way to do that is to become the Reclaimer that is talked about so much, and to actually defeat the Flood. Chief and UrDidact becoming unexpected allies would be kind of cool to see, I dunno.
GringoSuave89
Banned
That... Was an infodump haha. Thanks for sharing it all, it definitely fleshes some things out!
Munki
Member
So does that explain why MC is so large during the final cut scene in Halo 4?
MrGreencastle
Member
I dunno about that hah, more like an oversight.
Munki
Member
Seems to be a rather large oversight, especially after Palmer made the "I thought you would be bigger" comment earlier in the game. I just assumed that his size/strength was one of the enhancement the Librarian made, which prompted Palmer's reaction to MC when they passed each other in the hall during the final cut scene.
I think that was just bad scaling, honestly. He's not dramatically larger in game or in the in-game cutscenes.
Yeah, though I wonder if we should take his height in the cutscene or ingame as canon...
GringoSuave89
Banned
Aren't Spartan IIs larger than most humans anyway? I always thought Palmers comment was mild ribbing. Her glance at the end of 4 seemed more like a "Are you okay?/What happened?" kind of look.
-- Where are you getting the infertile part. Maria-062 explicitly wanted to start a family, so presumably it was possible to treat the sex drive issue.
-- WUT.
-- The comic is based on the book Halo: The Fall of Reach, which predates even Halo: Combat Evolved.
-- Bungie simply prioritized game canon, and if it stepped all over the books/comics it didn't matter.
To be clear: The contradictions were all a Bungie decision. Not Microsoft, not 343.
Munki
Member
Not really sure about SIV's. But from what I remember the difference between SII's and SIII's was:
- The success rate of the augmentation process much higher for the SIII's which resulted in higher number of SIII's.
- The selection process for the SII's was much more strict (the very few that had specific genetic markers were chosen).
- SII's were far better trained.
- SII's had the better armour.
But as far as size, that was all dependant on the individual. A good example would be the varied sizes just out of the SII class, Sam was huge compared to John and the rest of his teammates.
GringoSuave89
Banned
I thought that SIIs had the more intensive augmentations, accounting for their height, while the SIIIs were more or less cannon fodder and were mass produced, kind of cutting corners. SIVs basically need no genetic prequalification (as the tech was improved), just a good military record. If I remember correctly anyway.
Naomi (a SII) is described as "two meters and then some" in the Kilo-Five books, and I think John was mentioned being, without armor, 2.08 meters (6 ft 11 in) in Halo 3's Bestiarum, and 218 centimeters (7 ft 2 in) with armor, according to the Halo Visual Guide.
The Spartan-IIIs were comprised of war orphans who "volunteered"; their survival was due to lesser augmentations and better technology. While they didn't have as many surgical augmentations they were still formidable; they give one description of them essentially being top Olympic athletes by 12.
The most important augmentations are they've got increased strength, stronger bones and faster reaction times--and as proved by Noble Team, it's clearly close enough to Spartan II levels that they can operate Mjolnir armor. So I'd say odds are that they're within striking distance of the Spartan IIs if they were given equal armor and training.
I wasn't sure about Spartan IVs, so I went back to Initiation, and it raised some questions which I see Halopedia also has raised. All the Spartan-IVs are adult volunteers, but they don't mention the same reaction time improvements in the augmentation procedures. Thorne's journal thingy we got in the LE mentioned "surviving" the armor so I assume that was an oversight, or it's not to the same degree, or it's a bit from both ends--the GEN2 armor is a bit more "forgiving" and the Spartan's augmentations are a bit less advanced.
The Infinity packet if I recall also mentioned possible chances of rejection of implants, something we never heard from the IIs or IIIs (well, Gamma Company was fed the "goes coo-coo for cocoa puffs" drugs by Kurt), so it's also possible the increased survival comes with some delayed costs or side effects.
Either way I can't imagine it being good for a public Spartan program to be killing its recruits, and the S-IIIs got to near 0% casualties, so I'm going to guess that the S-IVs are likewise fairly "safe".
The most important augmentations are they've got increased strength, stronger bones and faster reaction times--and as proved by Noble Team, it's clearly close enough to Spartan II levels that they can operate Mjolnir armor. So I'd say odds are that they're within striking distance of the Spartan IIs if they were given equal armor and training.
I wasn't sure about Spartan IVs, so I went back to Initiation, and it raised some questions which I see Halopedia also has raised. All the Spartan-IVs are adult volunteers, but they don't mention the same reaction time improvements in the augmentation procedures. Thorne's journal thingy we got in the LE mentioned "surviving" the armor so I assume that was an oversight, or it's not to the same degree, or it's a bit from both ends--the GEN2 armor is a bit more "forgiving" and the Spartan's augmentations are a bit less advanced.
The Infinity packet if I recall also mentioned possible chances of rejection of implants, something we never heard from the IIs or IIIs (well, Gamma Company was fed the "goes coo-coo for cocoa puffs" drugs by Kurt), so it's also possible the increased survival comes with some delayed costs or side effects.
Either way I can't imagine it being good for a public Spartan program to be killing its recruits, and the S-IIIs got to near 0% casualties, so I'm going to guess that the S-IVs are likewise fairly "safe".
Munki
Member
They were more intensive as a result of them not being as efficient, many of the processes were considered experimental.
GringoSuave89
Banned
rejection of implants happened in the Spartan IIs for sure. Serin Osman, now head of ONI, was a Spartan II wash out that only received the minimum of augmentations before her body rejected it. Unlike other wash outs that either died or were horribly disabled, Osman received a great deal of treatment to be returned to normal, most likely thanks to her predecessor and mentor, Parangosky. A select few wash outs were also given ONI jobs, but the exact number and their names are unknown. I don't believe there were any wash outs mentioned in such detail in the Spartan III program.
S-IVs are most likely the easiest to produce, as genetics and morally grey science were not a factor in their creation. IIs and IIIs were still based off of their gene sequence to ensure compatibility. Only Spartan Is (Orion Project) and Spartan IVs were volunteers.
That was my understanding, yes. The IIIs had somewhat more successful methods, but still a bit of risk compared to IVs.
soulassssns
Banned
I assumed all Spartans were much larger than the average human due to the augmentation process that Halsey put them through.
Munki
Member
You are correct. But I was referring to the size diff between MC (SII) and Palmer (SIV), he towers over her during the final cut scene.
Munki
Member
Found this great link explaining the differences between the Spartan classes.
http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/12c44d/can_somebody_explain_to_me_what_the_difference_is/
http://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/12c44d/can_somebody_explain_to_me_what_the_difference_is/
soulassssns
Banned
I thought the Spartan 4's were just ODST's (or similar specwar types) that volunteered for new training and armor but did not go through any form of augmentation though. Similar to the SIII's in which they had weaker armor and different augmentation process that didn't result in a huge size difference compared to a standard human (ignoring Halo Reach of course).
GringoSuave89
Banned
Palmer is 6 ft. 9 in. with armor, while MC is 7 ft. 2 in. with armor. That final cutscene cannot in any way be to scale, if Palmer's stats are correct.
They most likely got the ceramic bone augments for durability, but I doubt anything else physiology wise.
Munki
Member
To be honest I'm not very familiar with the Spartan IV's as I have only read novels from the main series (The Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx).
All the information I do have is from the link I provided earlier:
SPARTAN IV's - Adult volunteers with exemplary service and performance records culled from the many branches of the UNSC. There hasn't been too much official information about the augmentation process the IV's go through. MJOLNIR GEN2 combat armor is provided to the IV's. Again not much official information is offered. We know it is flexible with an emphasis on modularity, and being tuned to the mission at hand. It's not a bulky as the original MJOLNIR, whether this is due to improvements in manufacturing techniques, a reduction in features, or a greater emphasis on shielding vs armor for protection is unknown at this point.
Its a large storied universe now. Convoluted is any large, multi book universe.
MrGreencastle
Member
Yeah, there's a couple small inconsistencies with Bungie's telling of Reach. That said, 343 did work heavily in conjunction with them as part of building and shaping the story to fit. Namely, Halsey's Journal was done by a joint team, Eric Nylund wrote much of it, but it was a really huge task putting it all together and making it fit and work. Kevin Grace from 343 was an editor (as I'm sure Frankie was too at some point, lots flows through him haha). Kevin's been working on Halo story for a long time, since I think ODST, maybe Halo 3, note sure.
I think some of the inconsistencies can be more explained by a bit of the "secrets" that were held from the "public" knowledge in-universe. Halo Reach almost seems like it is a story that is being "observed" in hind-sight rather than told directly (notice a lot of footage is from security cameras, helmet-optics, etc).
If anyone is interested in the Journal, here's a cool interview from back in 2010 with Nylund: http://halo.bungie.org/misc/enylund_interview_04_2010.html
It's one of my favourite pieces of fiction, probably the best thing ever to have in a limited edition, I really hope they do something like that again some day.
Good info, I'll add some more, SPOILERS:
-SII and SIII were conscription programs, abductions mostly in the case of the IIs
-SII was Halsey's brainchild
-SIII was James Ackerson's(Army), rival to Halsey (they "stole" much of her work, and hid the program from Halsey pretty much up until Reach, or just after), but a "competing" program done very hastily, almost pure drug-induced, cut corners for budget reasons, etc
-SIV program was originally "created" by a Spartan II, Musa-096, Serin Osman, current head of ONI, was also a Spartan II, both failed their original augmentations
-the first class of SIV's only had one survivor, Isla Zane, and its purpose originally was to create Spartans with such enhancements that they wouldn't even require MJOLNIR armour - it failed, she went to ONI like most failed IIs, but then became an "insurrectionist" leader of a sort, even tried to hijack the Infinity at one point
-Palmer was one of the first SIVs of the second class, originally "trained" by Jun (sniper dude from Reach
he went to work for ONI as a suit)-SIV is more like the "SI" program ORION - in that it's all volunteers, people who are already "best of the best" in the regular military get approached and given the choice to join or not
-SIV is a combination of drugs and physical augmentations
-SII and SIII were branches of the UNSC Navy (save for Noble team who was Army, and a couple ONI teams)
-SIV is its own independent branch in the UNSC like Army or Navy - just Spartan - not a secret from the public like the first 3
Thanks! I've got lots of little ideas for posts I'm working on, too so hopefully people don't mind the density, haha, trying to write for people who know the universe, and those who don't, too. It's just such a fun universe to explore, lots of depth, and 343 has really shown that they care and pushed it forward in ways I couldn't have expected just a few years ago. Really looking forward to what's next!
I would say in-game is more closer to canon than that cutscene, since he isn't really all that much taller than Palmer, maybe half a foot at most or so (when in MJOLNIR MK VI). And yeah, Chief wasn't really the biggest out of the IIs, just pretty average all around.
I always took Palmer's "I thought you'd be taller" as a sort of sarcastic remark of reverence - I don't think she actually dislikes Chief, that's just how she shows her emotions, through sarcasm (although it does come off as abrasive most of the time, not the biggest fan of her character).
The "look" that she and the other IVs give to Chief in that cutscene wasn't because Chief was so tall (I call that a stylistic oversight), it was because everybody realized that he JUST was found after 5 years of humanity pretty much thinking he was dead after saving all their asses countless times, and then he saves them all AGAIN (which is what the IV's are SUPPOSED to be doing), albeit at a great cost to him - Cortana. I'm sure many of the stories the people in the UNSC hear about all talk about her being the hero too, after all. It almost looks like Palmer is trying to comfort him, reaching out, they make "eye contact", but he doesn't stop to shoot the shit like all the other IVs, he just walks past.
You gotta remember, this is one of the first times that it wasn't just "all in a day's work" for him. He's been going almost non-stop since Reach (most of his life, really) and lost his "family" of SII's (or so he thinks), and now he's immersed in this new world that he isn't that familiar with, with all these new IVs around. He saved them all yet again, but he failed to protect that which was most precious to him in Cortana. It's also the first time in years that he even takes his armour off - technically since Cairo Station in Halo 2, even though the armour looks different haha. I wonder what Chief thinks of the IVs... If he feels they are "worthy" to protect humanity, if they are even capable... I wonder if he feels like a failure now - that scene before with Lasky on the Infinity deck makes it seem like he's struggling with just that...
--
Didact's lines from the Halo 4 Epilogue are fun to think about, too. He's really an interesting character once you get past the "destroy all humans" part (though if you remember he didn't exactly "kill" people for no reason, he was trying to build an army, the people the Prometheans killed on Requiem were in the way of that goal).
For musing purposes, this part sticks out to me:
Lot's of tree/plant allusions there, which makes sense, as the Mantle glyph (Eld) is often referred to as the tree-mark. From Silentium:
Courtesy of haruspis' blog:
The "Tree-of-Life" comes to mind, and somewhat falls in line with the idea that the Mantle is related to DNA or enhanced genetics in some way, and the double-helix is kind of like a trunk of a tree, and certainly the roots of life in a sense.
His use of the word "recede" is interesting, too. Especially after his pause, like he's choosing it carefully, since there are multiple meanings:
Also, it is a homonym with "Reseed", an important part of the Conservation Measure.
He feels he must save Forerunners from being:
--Forced to "recede" into the darkness, never again mettling in the affairs of life in the Milky-Way. Didact believes it is Forerunners - his - responsibility to "protect" the galaxy and he would use humanity as his means, possibly in his eyes redeeming them of their sins in the face of the Mantle, in turn redeeming himself?
--Forced to "recede" their right to the Mantle, something that was always meant to be held by Humans until the Forerunners de-evolved them as punishment for the war. Didact believes the Mantle belongs to Forerunners, not Humans.
--Forced to "reseed" the galaxy, after exterminating all life with Halo (something the Didact was morally against doing in the first place)
There was a time when he was a much nobler "man", but a terribly unfortunate series of cascading events and circumstance have molded and twisted him into the ugly, mad, almost desperate being he is in Halo 4.
Chief worked with Arbiter before, I wonder if he could bring Didact back to the light, either by "turning" him, or by becoming him - at least, what he once was...
You forget the biggest flaw of the IIIs were that they had to regularly get injections to not go insane or something
Wow so Jun was confirmed to be alive? Holy shit, where's all this mentioned? Great posts btwGood info, I'll add some more, SPOILERS:
-SII and SIII were conscription programs, abductions mostly in the case of the IIs
-SII was Halsey's brainchild
-SIII was James Ackerson's(Army), rival to Halsey (they "stole" much of her work, and hid the program from Halsey pretty much up until Reach, or just after), but a "competing" program done very hastily, almost pure drug-induced, cut corners for budget reasons, etc
-SIV program was originally "created" by a Spartan II, Musa-096, Serin Osman, current head of ONI, was also a Spartan II, both failed their original augmentations
-the first class of SIV's only had one survivor, Isla Zane, and its purpose originally was to create Spartans with such enhancements that they wouldn't even require MJOLNIR armour - it failed, she went to ONI like most failed IIs, but then became an "insurrectionist" leader of a sort, even tried to hijack the Infinity at one point
-Palmer was one of the first SIVs of the second class, originally "trained" by Jun (sniper dude from Reach
-SIV is more like the "SI" program ORION - in that it's all volunteers, people who are already "best of the best" in the regular military get approached and given the choice to join or not
-SIV is a combination of drugs and physical augmentations
-SII and SIII were branches of the UNSC Navy (save for Noble team who was Army, and a couple ONI teams)
-SIV is its own independent branch in the UNSC like Army or Navy - just Spartan - not a secret from the public like the first 3
The inconsistencies were actually pretty big with regard to timeline and location of people/ships. Many of these are patched over in the 2010 Definitive Edition version of The Fall of Reach.
It was too limited edition in my opinion. Still hoping that at one point it can be released as a PDF.
There's probably chemical augmentation of various types, but it's (IMO) a little misleading to say "drugs" as that often implies the use of combat drugs or mitigators (as with Spartan III's).
Noble wasn't Army. They were chopped OPCON to UniCom.
John's height is exaggerated in the final Halo 4 cutscene. Probably to give him a larger-than-life appearance.
MrGreencastle
Member
Agreed, that would be much easier than transcribing/posting pics, haha!
I suppose... But that's not what I meant. They used derivations from the SIII program, though, the "new" stuff, basically.
You're talking about commands, though I'm not sure what you're referring to with "OPCON", operation control? maybe you meant naval special warfare command, NAVSPECWAR? Noble TEAM were composed mainly of Spartan III - technically Navy, however the team operated through Army jurisdiction via Colonel Holland (Army, Special warfare Group Three, so yeah, I guess UniCom if you go high enough... but we're getting really freaking technical here...which is what I was trying to avoid with the bullets)
From Mr. Voc "AMA":
Basically, the Spartan II-III PROGRAMS themselves were mostly created under Navy, but operational jurisdiction of Noble Team (at least during Reach campaign) was Army.
Of course, we get into weirdness when you think about Jorge, who's the SII on Noble - maybe he would be ONI since he was supposed to be "dead". Then again, I bet everyone is operated through ONI if you go high enough haha! Then one questions even Noble 6, who we know almost nothing about, too...
All this is technicality, though, it's easier just to contrast that Noble team operated as Army, versus Navy like the rest of the Spartans did... save for the SIV program (and some secret ONI "teams"). That's all I'm going to go into on that, as it isn't really a debate worth having, imo... I prefer substance
Could still happen. Bug Mr. Stinkles about it.
I think the Spartan IVs are based more on the Spartan II templates. It was possible to "update" some (all?) Spartan IIIs to the new augmentation program, after all. Aside from the text on Palmer's augmentations in Initiation, not much has been stated about Spartan IV capabilities.
Of course, there's a confusion factor here in that the Spartan capabilities in the extended narrative (books, comics) do not match what we see in-game.
Summary version: Noble was Navy, they were temporarily assigned to Unified Special Warfare Command as they were in UniComs jurisdiction (ground operations).
Though not explicitly called out, UNSC operations on Requiem were probably UniCom territory as well.
Yes. The organizational scheme of the UNSC should hopefully be explained a bit more, soon.
Not sure what you mean here. There's plenty strange about Noble team and its Spartan IIIs but Jorge seems easy to explain.
Noble 6 is kept intentionally vague, as she/he is a customizable player avatar.
A book written by someone who hadn't even seen Combat Evolved when he wrote it.
It would be idiotic to hold your game down just for a book written a decade earlier.
As it should be. I never want a good level to be thrown out because "oh, the books said this can't happen"
It was more like Microsoft didn't coordinate canon with Bungie. Maybe they should have waited for the games to be out first, perhaps? Everyone is stuck arguing that Bungie changed where the Pillar of Autumn was on Reach when 343 retconned the entire damn Forerunner/Human backstory.
Bungie was the one driving the ship here. Not Microsoft. I am a bit perplexed why you are so hell-bent on pushing this false narrative.
Again. WUT. There was no established backstory to retcon.
GringoSuave89
Banned
Just an FYI to everyone, the next issue of Halo: Escalation comes out tonight/tomorrow.
This is the issue dealing with Throne's return to New Phoenix right? Should be interesting.
Gordon0Freeman
Member
Is there a "God" in Halo or Did the precursors create the universe within Halo lore?
GringoSuave89
Banned
Precursors are as far back as we know so far. I don't think going any farther will serve to better the lore, since having these Precursors already complicates things. So, in a roundabout way of answering: maybe?
GringoSuave89
Banned
MrGreencastle is a credit to the thread. Wish I had half the capacity to post comprehensive posts explaining everything.
Doesn't mean I won't stop trying
The Precursors had a direct hand in directing the development of sentient/sapient life in the galaxy - and were very handy with stellar engineering - but were not godlike in the sense of creating the universe.
MrGreencastle
Member
They added to it, and went back further, not really a retcon, imo. The ancient human stuff is pre-dated to what we knew about the Forerunners from the Halo 3 terminals (not much).
And 343 did co-ordinate canon with Bungie for Reach, Bungie in the lead, yeah, since it was their game after all, but the outside canon was definitely gone over in incredible detail by BOTH teams, it's talked about in detail during the SDCC universe panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxvXmtH-JQ4
I dunno. I really don't think Reach's inconsistencies with The Fall of Reach (whichever version, comic or whatever) were all that big, personally. The topic has been covered a million times before yet people keep getting hung up on some things that are pretty minor that don't really effect anything outside of that event. Especially when you can understand that much of what was seen in Reach is direct footage that contradicts the information "released" in Fall of Reach so The Pillar of Autumn "already in space" is so minor it doesn't even matter. As with the dates, same deal.
Here's an idea: ONI or Halsey could have ordered PoA to get to drydock specifically for Cortana's "second-half", which could have been omitted/redacted in the in-lore perspective of the released fiction of Fall of Reach through ONI Section 2 - we just don't know. There's not enough information coming out of pretty much any attack on the planets by the Covenant, and if you want to really get down to it, we're talking about a universe whose events for hundreds of years at least have been largely orchestrated entirely by an Assembly of compoundAI - a universe that has crystal(s) that warp spacetime onto coinciding event-paths (part of a future post, btw) - a universe with... ok I'm done... This stuff is more meta-argument than anything and it doesn't accomplish much other than pointing your finger at the writers and sneering. Blah...
Tough question, I'd say it would be more a question of how you would define "god" either way. The big philosophy that we're hearing about now from the Forerunners (and perhaps the Precursors, but that stuff gets really vague and poetic, so it's hard to talk about) perspective is the concept of Living Time, defined in the books as, "The joy of life's interaction with the cosmos". Basically, it's SciFi, so once you get to a high enough level far enough back, we have the Universe (or Milky-Way at least) acting as a sort of Living Brain, where the thoughts and experiences of that massive entity are carried out in the extreme long-term via the events and action/reaction that happens within the galaxy/brain - like synapse. Not unlike the synapse of brains being transferred through or via complex assemblies of micro-organisms and cells "chaotically" working together as a cohesive unit to accomplish a task. So, if you think of the galaxy as a sort of living brain, then you could extrapolate and think of the universe entirely in a similar sense - if god were anything here, it might be Time itself, or perhaps going further, just Chaos itself (order from "nothing" as it were...). This is kind of why activating Halo killed the Domain, as the Domain was basically the consciousness - if you could call it that - of the galaxy itself, implied even it outside of time. Halo targets neural networks, and if you can think of the galaxy as being a brain, with its own VERY long-term memories and experience, and possibly personality, then you can imagine why "killing" it with Halo was considered such a sleight against the Mantle.
It gets really, really strange, but I'll post a bit of Librarian's musings from the Forerunner trilogy that may enlighten (or confuse even further in my case):
Some heavy stuff, but I bolded that part because I found that the same logic sort of applies to the Universe itself, that it is composed of (maybe not "tight"-packed in the same sense, but maybe so?) jostling of many "things" cooperating and competing at once (societies, intelligences, creation and destruction of planets and stars, whatever), all unaware that their activities, massed together create much more complex realities... So the cosmos birthed life through chaos (or "Precursors" of another form...), and that joy of interaction could be the extrapolation of life's workings only on a much grander - potentially multi-universal - scale...
Errr that barely makes sense in my head, just barely. Apologies.
Edit: also, just for a sense of scale (more or less) here's a representation of our galaxy with the Magellanic Cloud galaxies orbiting:
Path Kethona, that Librarian is talking about in the above quote, would be somewhere in the Large Magellanic Cloud, the books do actually explore this somewhat, too!
Tarantula nebula, within the LMC:
MrGreencastle is a credit to the thread. Wish I had half the capacity to post comprehensive posts explaining everything.
Doesn't mean I won't stop trying
Thanks very much! I hope to keep the passion and keep posting fun stuff to talk and think about.
Ah yes, the Assembly and slipspace time travel. Everyone's favorite apocrypha
MrGreencastle
Member
Ah yes, the Assembly and slipspace time travel. Everyone's favorite apocrypha
Canon!
edit: probably one of the deeper layers of the Halo story onion though
Yes, my mistake, I originally said that the SIIIs were conscripted like the IIs, though if you're a child, a war-orphan like you say, it would be difficult to say no to ONI haha
Hope so. They're looking to make a return in a comic in... September, I think. Judging by the cover art.
Ah yes, the Assembly and slipspace time travel. Everyone's favorite apocrypha
I'm going to say with 99% certainty that 343 treats the Assembly as the random ravings of a well-traveled madman loose on Reach
People have enough issues with the Librarian's plans to lead to Spartans and AIs, but the Assembly goes way beyond that into stupidity levels IMO.
No one likes a story where they tell you at the end, "actually it was a bunch of characters you've never heard or cared about all this time! Hahahaha".