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Halo Lore Thread

With Halo books? Youarealreadydead.jpg

lol yeah, I have 5 hardcovers (Primordium, Silentium, and the Kilo-Five trilogy), 7 full-size paperbacks (reissues of the original trilogy, the second "trilogy", and Cryptum), 2 trade paperbacks (Evolutions Vol 1 and 2), and then weird mid-size paperback for Broken Circle (and then of course there are art-books and encyclopedias). It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Cryptum is paperback and the other two are hardcover, since I could treat each "sub-series" as a separate entity, but nope. That will always ruin it all lol.
 
lol yeah, I have 5 hardcovers (Primordium, Silentium, and the Kilo-Five trilogy), 7 full-size paperbacks (reissues of the original trilogy, the second "trilogy", and Cryptum), 2 trade paperbacks (Evolutions Vol 1 and 2), and then weird mid-size paperback for Broken Circle (and then of course there are art-books and encyclopedias). It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Cryptum is paperback and the other two are hardcover, since I could treat each "sub-series" as a separate entity, but nope. That will always ruin it all lol.

There's a hardcover for Cryptum- I'm sure you could find one for a good price!

I was over the moon that the Forerunner trilogy and the Kilo-Five trilogy were all the same size in hardcover. They look so nice side by side!

Given that, I'm hoping that Broken Circle, Hunters in the Dark, and Last Light all are the same size, since they are being released in the same cycle. I was really hoping for hardcover releases but Broken Circle is a nice size for a paperback so it won't be so bad if the other two match up.
 
There's a hardcover for Cryptum- I'm sure you could find one for a good price!

I was over the moon that the Forerunner trilogy and the Kilo-Five trilogy were all the same size in hardcover. They look so nice side by side!

Given that, I'm hoping that Broken Circle, Hunters in the Dark, and Last Light all are the same size, since they are being released in the same cycle. I was really hoping for hardcover releases but Broken Circle is a nice size for a paperback so it won't be so bad if the other two match up.

Each publisher tends to stick to specific dimensions, so any future Halo books under the current publisher should all be the same size as Broken Circle.

And yeah, I know there's a hardcover of Cryptum. :p I was going to buy one a while back, but I couldn't find any in-stores and online I could only find "bargain price" copies (which may have black marker stripes, which I don't want). If I looked hard enough I could find a good copy, but I don't care that much. :p
 
Each publisher tends to stick to specific dimensions, so any future Halo books under the current publisher should all be the same size as Broken Circle.

Oh good. Good good. Very good.

20D.gif
 

CRIMSONxSERAPH

Neo Member
Just rewatched the Spartan Ops videos, and I caught something that I either forgot or overlooked before. Halsey definitely has her interest piqued in the aspect of Prometheans. When she was conversing with Thorne she talks about Prometheus having something valuable to give to humans, and then she made a remark about wondering what the Prometheans could give humans.

Later, when she finds out about John still being alive from Roland, it seems as though her mission either changes or becomes that much more important because she immediately tells Roland to prep a Pelican for launch.

While the ending of Spartan Ops gives the appearance that she's completely siding with Jul, I believe that she's more using him to further her agenda, though what that is I'm obviously not sure. It seems more clear to me now though that her agenda includes making use of the Prometheans, something directly involving Master Chief, and then the task by the Librarian to propel humanity to the next stage of evolution.

A theory of mine: she might be theorizing of how to use the technology and advancements present within the Composer/Prometheans (as she labeled them, "AI") to help in what she no doubt can figure is the rampancy of Cortana and/or the need for Chief to have an adequately paired AI. I might be completely off on this, but after watching these again, it was my first thought.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Just rewatched the Spartan Ops videos, and I caught something that I either forgot or overlooked before. Halsey definitely has her interest piqued in the aspect of Prometheans. When she was conversing with Thorne she talks about Prometheus having something valuable to give to humans, and then she made a remark about wondering what the Prometheans could give humans.

Later, when she finds out about John still being alive from Roland, it seems as though her mission either changes or becomes that much more important because she immediately tells Roland to prep a Pelican for launch.

While the ending of Spartan Ops gives the appearance that she's completely siding with Jul, I believe that she's more using him to further her agenda, though what that is I'm obviously not sure. It seems more clear to me now though that her agenda includes making use of the Prometheans, something directly involving Master Chief, and then the task by the Librarian to propel humanity to the next stage of evolution.

A theory of mine: she might be theorizing of how to use the technology and advancements present within the Composer/Prometheans (as she labeled them, "AI") to help in what she no doubt can figure is the rampancy of Cortana and/or the need for Chief to have an adequately paired AI. I might be completely off on this, but after watching these again, it was my first thought.

I think the only people who said "Halsey's evil now! This is stupid!" are the people who completely missed the subtle and not-so-subtle clues the UNSC and ONI were turning into the bad guys under 343. Obviously she's running her own schemes, same as always. What those are is the interesting question, as you say.

Given that she doesn't actually ask about Cortana, though, I wonder if that's really her primary concern. On paper, Cortana should have died anyhow by the time of Spartan Ops. While even Halsey wasn't sure if that timeframe was absolute, she doesn't seem that interested in finding out.
 
I think the only people who said "Halsey's evil now! This is stupid!" are the people who completely missed the subtle and not-so-subtle clues the UNSC and ONI were turning into the bad guys under 343. Obviously she's running her own schemes, same as always. What those are is the interesting question, as you say.

Given that she doesn't actually ask about Cortana, though, I wonder if that's really her primary concern. On paper, Cortana should have died anyhow by the time of Spartan Ops. While even Halsey wasn't sure if that timeframe was absolute, she doesn't seem that interested in finding out.

I mean, I used to be on the other side of the fence here. Not really for any good reason other than something along the lines of UNSC = Humanity, Covenant = Bad guys, and anyone who dislikes the UNSC = Covenant sympathizers. But now, even going back to Fall of Reach, I kinda sympathize with Insurrectionists more than UNSC - things are a lot more grey now that there's less "Destroy all Humans" war going on. Who wants a totalitarian military-government controlling everything and homogenizing cultures everywhere? That's pretty much the same thing as the Covenant was doing, no? I mean, obviously if it weren't for the UNSC (well, Halsey and her Spartans specifically, but that's another debate) there'd be no humanity left to rebel against this "regime".

I don't think they're all bad guys or good guys, but they all have different ideas on what's best for the galaxy, and I think Chief and Arbiter are in the best position to understand the stakes and what it means to ensure LIFE prospers in the galaxy, not just humanity. I think that is going to be a big theme going forward. Chief realizing that perhaps the UNSC/ONI's goals don't exactly align with keeping peace and prosperity for all. He will transcend defending humanity, and move to defend everything - basically Didact's job description. What that means for him and the UNSC remains to be seen. The Forerunners fell into that same biased trap before, so it's important that they remain detached somewhat from their species in order to maintain a state of prosperity for all. Maybe that means doing some things that the UNSC wouldn't like, who knows...
 
Mortal Dictata made me rethink quite a lot. The Insurrectionists aren't really all that bad... Hell, they were even amicable with Covenant races before the UNSC was proper, post-war. Naomi's father, while certainly not innocent by any means, wasn't some absolute evil.

ONI is slowly turning the corner into a very corrupt organization. Are there good people working within ONI? Oh yes. Lots. But ONI itself is becoming something else entirely, and to some extent, even the UNSC as a whole.

The first two Kilo-Five novels are from ONI's perspective, and the third is kind of more from Naomi's and BB's. The character assassination of Halsey isn't to promote propaganda to the reader. Instead, it's a perfectly pitched effort to setup where ONI is headed... And that rings all the more clear in light of the Hunt the Truth ARG and all of these "Traitor or Hero" lines we see in the marketing.

343 has been playing the long game, here, and it's kinda awesome to watch unfold as we get closer to Halo 5.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I mean, I used to be on the other side of the fence here. Not really for any good reason other than something along the lines of UNSC = Humanity, Covenant = Bad guys, and anyone who dislikes the UNSC = Covenant sympathizers. But now, even going back to Fall of Reach, I kinda sympathize with Insurrectionists more than UNSC - things are a lot more grey now that there's less "Destroy all Humans" war going on. Who wants a totalitarian military-government controlling everything and homogenizing cultures everywhere? That's pretty much the same thing as the Covenant was doing, no? I mean, obviously if it weren't for the UNSC (well, Halsey and her Spartans specifically, but that's another debate) there'd be no humanity left to rebel against this "regime".

I don't think they're all bad guys or good guys, but they all have different ideas on what's best for the galaxy, and I think Chief and Arbiter are in the best position to understand the stakes and what it means to ensure LIFE prospers in the galaxy, not just humanity. I think that is going to be a big theme going forward. Chief realizing that perhaps the UNSC/ONI's goals don't exactly align with keeping peace and prosperity for all. He will transcend defending humanity, and move to defend everything - basically Didact's job description. What that means for him and the UNSC remains to be seen. The Forerunners fell into that same biased trap before, so it's important that they remain detached somewhat from their species in order to maintain a state of prosperity for all. Maybe that means doing some things that the UNSC wouldn't like, who knows...

This is something I've never understood why people ignored it for so long. Putting aside the Covenant invasion, life in 26th century human space is horrible, essentially from the moment Nylund introduces us to the world. There's mentions of how your careers can be chosen for you, there's obvious horrible inequality, and because of the unrest and later the Covenant war, the civilian government has been eaten away and coopted by the military into a totalitarian state where surveillance and propaganda is Orwellian in its effectiveness. Being a civilian is the worst possible option for you, especially when the glassing starts—something I thought was possible during the Bungie era and which 343 has ran with was the idea that there were lost colonies, cut off from contact with humanity and left to fend for themselves as planets fell and the UNSC retreated. One day the Covenant might just pop out of the sky and burn you all to hell, and there's nothing you could do about it.

Like any extremist movement, a lot of the Insurrectionists are horrible people confronting a horrible government. While we know some of the info in Hunt the Truth is ONI nonsense, I'm presuming the details that the Insurrectionists actually openly-controlled some territory and created gulags is rooted in truth. They're shockingly nasty as well—only difference is that under 343, the stories haven't treated the evil bastard ONI agent trope as a one-off guy working for a shadowy organization, but part of a systemic issue. They've also spent more time with the "average Joe Insurrectionist"—leaving aside the child kidnapping, people like Naomi's dad aren't necessarily overly hostile to the UNSC, but they're wary that things will go south immediately and they're preparing for that eventuality.

Looking back at it, I kind of feel like Nylund's portrayal of the human war was rather simplistic and pro-military by default, rather than by merit.

One thing I do give The Cole Protocol some credit for is introducing the idea that even in a genocidal war, there were people on both sides who just wanted to live their lives and leave well enough alone. And especially after a massive war which left both sides broken* turning to former enemies makes a lot of sense.

*I still wish the K5 trilogy spanned a longer period of time, because while conceptually I like the idea of Infinity being a gamble/ship of last resort in the fight against the Covenant, it popping up immediately and being the kingmaker so soon also felt like it robbed us of some of the tension in the immediate postwar period. The UNSC seem to have recovered too quickly, which I think is partially exacerbated by reconnecting so quickly with some of the colonies that got spared from glassing. To draw an analogy to WWII, the UNSC is acting like it was the United States when its role in the conflict was more like Great Britain—a country that was still rationing into the 1950s.
 
This is something I've never understood why people ignored it for so long. Putting aside the Covenant invasion, life in 26th century human space is horrible, essentially from the moment Nylund introduces us to the world. There's mentions of how your careers can be chosen for you, there's obvious horrible inequality, and because of the unrest and later the Covenant war, the civilian government has been eaten away and coopted by the military into a totalitarian state where surveillance and propaganda is Orwellian in its effectiveness. Being a civilian is the worst possible option for you, especially when the glassing starts—something I thought was possible during the Bungie era and which 343 has ran with was the idea that there were lost colonies, cut off from contact with humanity and left to fend for themselves as planets fell and the UNSC retreated. One day the Covenant might just pop out of the sky and burn you all to hell, and there's nothing you could do about it.

Like any extremist movement, a lot of the Insurrectionists are horrible people confronting a horrible government. While we know some of the info in Hunt the Truth is ONI nonsense, I'm presuming the details that the Insurrectionists actually openly-controlled some territory and created gulags is rooted in truth. They're shockingly nasty as well—only difference is that under 343, the stories haven't treated the evil bastard ONI agent trope as a one-off guy working for a shadowy organization, but part of a systemic issue. They've also spent more time with the "average Joe Insurrectionist"—leaving aside the child kidnapping, people like Naomi's dad aren't necessarily overly hostile to the UNSC, but they're wary that things will go south immediately and they're preparing for that eventuality.

Looking back at it, I kind of feel like Nylund's portrayal of the human war was rather simplistic and pro-military by default, rather than by merit.

Nylund's portrayal of life under the UNSC is pretty stark, and more or less depressing. I think it's easy to forget all of that, as those issues are swept under the rug of the Human-Covenant War. In many ways, it was convenient to shed aside such disparity in the face of annihilation.

And now, with the war being more or less ended, these things, once ignored and neglected, are beginning to resurface.

One thing I do give The Cole Protocol some credit for is introducing the idea that even in a genocidal war, there were people on both sides who just wanted to live their lives and leave well enough alone.

There are good souls on both sides of the human conflict. There's just as many bad souls. In Halo, there really isn't much that can be defined as black and white...There's a lot of moral grey instead. What makes that all the more fascinating is following characters as they muddle through these contexts, especially those who are kind of removed from it as they traverse the fringes of the unknown, and as they are also hunted by others who want to bring them back into the quagmire.
 
There are good souls on both sides of the human conflict. There's just as many bad souls. In Halo, there really isn't much that can be defined as black and white...There's a lot of moral grey instead. What makes that all the more fascinating is following characters as they muddle through these contexts, especially those who are kind of removed from it as they traverse the fringes of the unknown, and as they are also hunted by others who want to bring them back into the quagmire.

That's why I love Halsey's journal so much. It's such an insight when combined with the other side of the story in Fall of Reach, Reach, and such. Some people liken her to Mengele - I mean, just the other day I was telling a buddy of mine about her whole history and the whole flash clone thing, someone familiar with Halo but not necessarily these gitty details, and he made that connection instantly. What with her thinking her Spartans are the perfect race, with perfect genetics and the perfect tools, etc. etc. I don't think that's entirely how I view her, honestly, but one can certainly make that type of connection.

It's difficult, because everything, every projection, every piece of data that was available to the UNSC pointed toward imminent and absolute self-destruction and perpetual war within humanity's "empire", from Halsey's perspective. And as far as anyone was concerned, Halsey was in THE best position to do something about it, and was basically given carte-blanche to fix the problem. She decided she needed to make the Spartans, the smart AIs, and the Mjolnir suit to connect the both of them together. And then they made first contact, and it turns out, she was correct. Very correct. More correct than anyone had thought. Something no one could have predicted - yet if she hadn't done it, the Covenant likely would have succeeded in wiping out not only the human race, but also in activating the Array and annihilating everything, again.

In order for that to happen, she made questionable moral decisions, and absorbed a lot of the ethical issues and the risk as well - that was her sacrifice. And in most any other circumstance the ends most likely would not have justified the means. But in this case? It's not so clear to me. The debate wouldn't even be happening. It's a strange thought, anyway.
 

CRIMSONxSERAPH

Neo Member
That's why I love Halsey's journal so much. It's such an insight when combined with the other side of the story in Fall of Reach, Reach, and such. Some people liken her to Mengele - I mean, just the other day I was telling a buddy of mine about her whole history and the whole flash clone thing, someone familiar with Halo but not necessarily these gitty details, and he made that connection instantly. What with her thinking her Spartans are the perfect race, with perfect genetics and the perfect tools, etc. etc. I don't think that's entirely how I view her, honestly, but one can certainly make that type of connection.

It's difficult, because everything, every projection, every piece of data that was available to the UNSC pointed toward imminent and absolute self-destruction and perpetual war within humanity's "empire", from Halsey's perspective. And as far as anyone was concerned, Halsey was in THE best position to do something about it, and was basically given carte-blanche to fix the problem. She decided she needed to make the Spartans, the smart AIs, and the Mjolnir suit to connect the both of them together. And then they made first contact, and it turns out, she was correct. Very correct. More correct than anyone had thought. Something no one could have predicted - yet if she hadn't done it, the Covenant likely would have succeeded in wiping out not only the human race, but also in activating the Array and annihilating everything, again.

In order for that to happen, she made questionable moral decisions, and absorbed a lot of the ethical issues and the risk as well - that was her sacrifice. And in most any other circumstance the ends most likely would not have justified the means. But in this case? It's not so clear to me. The debate wouldn't even be happening. It's a strange thought, anyway.

So I'm not one that's ashamed to say that I'm still somehow rooting for Halsey to walk away from all of this (or die from all of this) having her motives in line with the betterment of humanity, instead of just the betterment of her own agendas or pride. With that said, your comment made me consider something I hadn't yet.

I know there are a few of us at least on here who suspect that Halsey possibly has a geas of the Librarian within her, which helped guide her subconsciously to create the Spartans, Cortana, the MJOLNIR systems, the whole shebang. Without giving it much further consideration, I just always assumed that was the extent of the possible geas within her, leading her to create Cortana and Master Chief.

What if that isn't all her geas has in store for her though? I mean, sure, we know she has 1/2 of the Janus Key, and she is Catherine Halsey, after all, but as far as her place in the Librarian's overarching plan, I hadn't considered what else she could provide humanity/galactic life beyond the Spartan program...but I think there might be some clues that she's still got a major role to play.

It's been known for a good while now that Humanity was meant to take the Mantle of Responsibility instead of the Forerunners. This Mantle is a responsibility to oversee and protect all life in the galaxy, not merely the Mantle's holder's species. As of the events surrounding Halo 4 and following, we have been able to see more clearly than ever that the UNSC, and ONI in particular, is concerned with itself almost completely exclusively. Sure, you've got those like Lord Hood, who seem to desire to have peace with other species, but peace is not synonymous with concern. The number of characters we've been introduced to that have the best for all life in mind are very slim, indeed. Yet, if humanity is to be propelled to uphold the Mantle, then there has to be a change of heart, motive, understanding, and action. I believe one such person who is ready and willing to do this could be John-117, especially with further instruction, but I believe another person who is closest to this mindset is none other than our Doctor Halsey.

Halsey has repeatedly shown she is willing to put politics and short-lasting (in scope) moral dilemmas aside for the sake of the "greater good", even when the vast majority (read:99.999% of humanity) would stand against her choices. She is willing to do what has to be done to protect life. She has a responsibility because of her wisdom and insight that no one else has, and she is willing to bear the burden of such responsibility in a heartbeat, without question.

If humanity is truly to take upon itself the Mantle of Responsibility, the UNSC and ONI, in their current perceptions and upholdings, drastically have to change, or else they must move aside in order for humanity to propel itself to where it is meant to be. I think Halsey understands this, better than any other, and I believe she is the one who, once again, is willing to pull the nasty trigger to do what must be done. Maybe this is because her (potential) geas continues to guide her to this point, or maybe she just has an insight and a gut that has led her right so far and therefore continues to follow it. In either case, I believe Halsey to be the example of mindset that the rest of humanity needs if it is to adequately uphold the Mantle as the Precursors designed it.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
The one problem I have with the Nazis/Mengele descriptors is that while the Nazis gave science a tremendous amount of knowledge (there was a fascinating radio story the other day about the morality of using some of that stuff in terms of medical diagrams, et al today), insofar as scientists, they were pretty lacking. Leaving aside caring about the people they experimented on, there was no real scientific method to a lot of his experiments, it was more a "let's see what happens if I sew two people together! One day there will be a movie called Human Centipede!"

Halsey's actions might be monstrous, but they were done for a clear goal and weren't wanton.

(also, I know it's for the readers, but people in the far future referring to our events constantly is a personal nitpick I have with a lot of sci-fi. Are you telling me there were no butchers during the Rainforest Wars that might be a more apropos comparison? You miss a chance to add depth to the universe, instead of drawing on an old well. It strikes me as lazy as the convention of "Alien place" + "Earth name for something", a la tiberian bat.)
 

CRIMSONxSERAPH

Neo Member
(also, I know it's for the readers, but people in the far future referring to our events constantly is a personal nitpick I have with a lot of sci-fi. Are you telling me there were no butchers during the Rainforest Wars that might be a more apropos comparison? You miss a chance to add depth to the universe, instead of drawing on an old well. It strikes me as lazy as the convention of "Alien place" + "Earth name for something", a la tiberian bat.)

That's always been a pet peeve of mine as well. It'd be easily forgiveable if it were one or two hundred years ahead, but 500 years is a long time to be able to pull from and reference other events as early and instinctively as we do the World Wars or even the Civil and Revolutionary Wars. It doesn't change canon at all, so ultimately it's not that big of a deal, but it pulls me out of the moment briefly while reading, nonetheless.
 
#1. How did I miss that there is a Evolutions II.. but wait, I'm confused. Is Evolutions, I & II different books? Or is I + II the same as the original printing? I got the book when it first came out.. what am I missing?

#2. Halo: Escalation spoilers follow
Halsey has the full Janus key, and purposefully avoided being rescued by SIV's and the UNSC, preferring to escape with Jul M'dama again. I still think she's got her own agenda, and knows if she goes back to the UNSC, even with the full key, they'll just lock her away again. I can't believe that her end goal would be to provide anything of substance to the new Covenant, but as it's mentioned above, perhaps she wants to find a way to help all life.. or maybe just her Spartans? Or new AI? I dunno.

#3. Everything we've seen between Halsey and Cortana showed them to have a pretty strained relationship. I wonder if Halsey thinks of Cortana are just a tool more than a person? Could be a sticking point between John-117 and Halsey at some point? In Halo 4 Cortana tells John-117 that perhaps Halsey will give him another Cortana model.. so I guess she knows there are other flash cloned brains as well?

I would think she'd ask or inquire as to what happened to Cortana at some point, but I guess she never gets to talk to John directly, and maybe doesn't care to discuss it with SIV's or ONI. A conversation with Roland about it would have been cool though..

#4. I do find it a little annoying when current stuff is referenced that far in the future, but I just chalk it up to needing something people will relate to. I do agree it could be a good time to introduce more world building info, but there probably isn't always room/time/pacing for that when they could use something the reader will pick up on instantly.

#5. I love Halo :)
 
#1. How did I miss that there is a Evolutions II.. but wait, I'm confused. Is Evolutions, I & II different books? Or is I + II the same as the original printing? I got the book when it first came out.. what am I missing?

#2. Halo: Escalation spoilers follow
Halsey has the full Janus key, and purposefully avoided being rescued by SIV's and the UNSC, preferring to escape with Jul M'dama again. I still think she's got her own agenda, and knows if she goes back to the UNSC, even with the full key, they'll just lock her away again. I can't believe that her end goal would be to provide anything of substance to the new Covenant, but as it's mentioned above, perhaps she wants to find a way to help all life.. or maybe just her Spartans? Or new AI? I dunno.

#3. Everything we've seen between Halsey and Cortana showed them to have a pretty strained relationship. I wonder if Halsey thinks of Cortana are just a tool more than a person? Could be a sticking point between John-117 and Halsey at some point? In Halo 4 Cortana tells John-117 that perhaps Halsey will give him another Cortana model.. so I guess she knows there are other flash cloned brains as well?

I would think she'd ask or inquire as to what happened to Cortana at some point, but I guess she never gets to talk to John directly, and maybe doesn't care to discuss it with SIV's or ONI. A conversation with Roland about it would have been cool though..

#4. I do find it a little annoying when current stuff is referenced that far in the future, but I just chalk it up to needing something people will relate to. I do agree it could be a good time to introduce more world building info, but there probably isn't always room/time/pacing for that when they could use something the reader will pick up on instantly.

#5. I love Halo :)

It's annoying. There's Evolutions, which was the original book. Then they split them into 2, Evolutions I & II which each come with an exclusive short story not found in the original release. And both of them are excellent, imo. Soma the Painter for Evolutions I (about a Forerunner "civilian" witness first contact with the Flood), and Wages of Sin (about a prophet lamenting his life in his final moments as High Charity is being consumed by the Gravemind). Like I said, both are fantastic short stories, I wish I could post them :(
 

Toa TAK

Banned
It's annoying. There's Evolutions, which was the original book. Then they split them into 2, Evolutions I & II which each come with an exclusive short story not found in the original release. And both of them are excellent, imo. Soma the Painter for Evolutions I (about a Forerunner "civilian" witness first contact with the Flood), and Wages of Sin (about a prophet lamenting his life in his final moments as High Charity is being consumed by the Gravemind). Like I said, both are fantastic short stories, I wish I could post them :(
Damn, looks like I should've just bought the volumes instead of buying the original when it came out. =\

That's pretty cheap, Tor.
 
Damn, looks like I should've just bought the volumes instead of buying the original when it came out. =\

That's pretty cheap, Tor.

Well, a quick Google shows that about 90% of the Wages of Sin short story can be read in the Google Books preview of Evolutions II, for whatever reason, if you're interested, lol.

Just google the first line, in quotes: "i have seen more than thirteen hundred revolutions, and my time now is very short"

...and I bought Evolutions I just to read the Soma the Painter short story because I felt it would be pertinent to understanding Forerunners at some point - everything matters. Especially a viewpoint as interesting as hers.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Well, a quick Google shows that about 90% of the Wages of Sin short story can be read in the Google Books preview of Evolutions II, for whatever reason, if you're interested, lol.

Just google the first line, in quotes: "i have seen more than thirteen hundred revolutions, and my time now is very short"

Thanks, I'd never read that story. It's nice that it gives a little more insight into the Covenant AI situation.

Although I'm confused by his talk about the Flood. He sounds like he bears responsibility for releasing the Flood on Installation 05, but it was already released for years prior as far as we know.
 
Thanks, I'd never read that story. It's nice that it gives a little more insight into the Covenant AI situation.

Although I'm confused by his talk about the Flood. He sounds like he bears responsibility for releasing the Flood on Installation 05, but it was already released for years prior as far as we know.

Hmm, I read it as his "team" unleashing the Flood on Installation 04, rather than 05, but he doesn't say.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
That's why I love Halsey's journal so much. It's such an insight when combined with the other side of the story in Fall of Reach, Reach, and such. Some people liken her to Mengele - I mean, just the other day I was telling a buddy of mine about her whole history and the whole flash clone thing, someone familiar with Halo but not necessarily these gitty details, and he made that connection instantly. What with her thinking her Spartans are the perfect race, with perfect genetics and the perfect tools, etc. etc. I don't think that's entirely how I view her, honestly, but one can certainly make that type of connection.

I honestly still struggle with what camp to place her in. I guess I *want* her to be not so bad since she did save humanity and all, plus she has a much better head on her than most of ONI. But the troubling bit for me is that she designed the Spartan IIs before humanity even had a whiff of the Covenant. In the early books (with more simplistic motives and notions of good and evil) this was passed off as she did the math and found they would save lives...But, that was still fighting against insurrectionists who wanted self-rule, and she still did all those things to children...

So, I dunno. I get why so many Halo fans are so fervently in defence of her, to the point of (I think wrongly) pooping on the books which make such comparisons (it's the characters *IN* the book doing it, which is the important bit to remember, not necessarily that the books themselves want you to think one way). But...I also can't say I don't understand the comparisons with Mengele (not to say I think they're very exact, but things don't have to be 1:1 for similarities to be mentioned)

Say if Mengele did all those experiments, and they turned out to save humanity from some great illness, by happenstance...The Covenant justifying the program would be like that happenstance.

Anyways, I also think something more must have been at play to motivate her - a genesong, geas, sweet whisperings from the Librarian when she was a child herself, The Assembly which may or may not still be canon, *something*. Or maybe I just want something to have pushed her to it to justify still kind of rooting for her.

Halo motives: Complicated as balls. This is why this isn't just another video game franchise.

(also, I know it's for the readers, but people in the far future referring to our events constantly is a personal nitpick I have with a lot of sci-fi. Are you telling me there were no butchers during the Rainforest Wars that might be a more apropos comparison? You miss a chance to add depth to the universe, instead of drawing on an old well. It strikes me as lazy as the convention of "Alien place" + "Earth name for something", a la tiberian bat.)


I thought precisely the same thing. Godwins law still rules in the 26th century, with people referencing the 20th century as the best point of cultural reference? I do know it's for the readers too, but it's just odd.

I liked this poem from Rainforest Wars, on that topic, I'd like to see that time expanded on a bit

"We have come to a place far from home /
Time long passed since we have seen the sun rise /
A place where peace can finally come /
A place where we can rest and laugh and sing and love once more."


Too bad peace never really came.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
You can still root for her knowing the murkiness of what she's done. I know I do.

All the Mengele references are crazy, though.
 
It's kind of funny when you think about it: Despite Parangosky's influence and power, she STILL did everything she did behind Hood's back as if she knew that if she was caught read handed, he was the only person who could actually and genuinely do something about it.

Terrance must have had influence and massive respect from all of the UNSC, because considering the type of person Margaret is, she'd likely would've just did it out in the open without giving two shits.
 
I honestly still struggle with what camp to place her in. I guess I *want* her to be not so bad since she did save humanity and all, plus she has a much better head on her than most of ONI. But the troubling bit for me is that she designed the Spartan IIs before humanity even had a whiff of the Covenant. In the early books (with more simplistic motives and notions of good and evil) this was passed off as she did the math and found they would save lives...But, that was still fighting against insurrectionists who wanted self-rule, and she still did all those things to children...

So, I dunno. I get why so many Halo fans are so fervently in defence of her, to the point of (I think wrongly) pooping on the books which make such comparisons (it's the characters *IN* the book doing it, which is the important bit to remember, not necessarily that the books themselves want you to think one way). But...I also can't say I don't understand the comparisons with Mengele.

Say if Mengele did all those experiments, and they turned out to save humanity from some great illness, by happenstance...The Covenant justifying the program would be like that happenstance.

Anyways, I also think something more must have been at play to motivate her - a genesong, geas, sweet whisperings from the Librarian when she was a child herself, The Assembly which may or may not still be canon, *something*. Or maybe I just want something to have pushed her to it to justify still kind of rooting for her.

Halo motives: Complicated as balls. This is why this isn't just another video game franchise.

Ignoring the whole geas debate, I still think Halsey was correct. Halsey's and Carver's projections predict (from her Journal verbatim):
I ran more than fourteen hundred simulations, varying every parameter, and in the best-case scenario the Outer Colonies would rebel... and rebel soon. With FTL-capable transports, ANY colony could convert such vehicles into weapons of mass destruction. Minimum effect was thirty years of war and five billion dead. The maximum effect was unbounded. Interminable war. Another Dark Age for humanity.

MINIMUM 5 billion deaths and 30 years civil war. Even if the Covenant had never been found, that's a huge number. And unnacceptable to both Halsey and the UNSC, especially given Halsey's proposed solutions in the SPARTAN II program, etc. I dunno, I still think she was right, given the circumstances. Cold. Calculated. Whatever. But correct, nonetheless.

... if anything the Human-Covenant war delayed the inevitable. And only now is it coming to bite them in the ass. And pretty much everyone is far more advanced than they were before the war. So shit is on an even worse precipice, in my opinion. I think Chief understands this, same as Halsey and Arbiter. I think they're the only ones who truly understand the gravity of the situation now. It remains to be seen if Locke can be enlightened as well. I hope so, Chief could use a buddy right about now.
 
Each publisher tends to stick to specific dimensions, so any future Halo books under the current publisher should all be the same size as Broken Circle.

Tell that to my copy of Mortal Dictata, being half again as large as the others in its series despite the print taking up the same space on the pages.

udz4Kqm.jpg


It's a freak.

On a related note, I finally decided to get Broken Circle. Hope it's good.
 
Tell that to my copy of Mortal Dictata, being half again as large as the others in its series despite the print taking up the same space on the pages.

udz4Kqm.jpg


It's a freak.

On a related note, I finally decided to get Broken Circle. Hope it's good.

I wasn't expecting Mortal Dictata to be as massive as it was, but man I was pretty jazzed. I love lengthy tomes. Thankfully, I was able to get hardcovers of all 3 so they match up, height wise.

Broken Circle is solid. It's a very nice entry into the extended universe, and has some pretty interesting hints at what may happen in the near and distant future.
 
Cool. Need to finish Endymion first (I'm collecting inspiration so I can finally commence with my own project), Broken Circle is next.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
MINIMUM 5 billion deaths and 30 years civil war. Even if the Covenant had never been found, that's a huge number. And unnacceptable to both Halsey and the UNSC, especially given Halsey's proposed solutions in the SPARTAN II program, etc. I dunno, I still think she was right, given the circumstances. Cold. Calculated. Whatever. But correct, nonetheless.
.

Perhaps it's just my limited 21st century thinking, and such simulations are accurate in the future...It just doesn't feel like you could feed data into a supercomputer and it could discount, say, a hostile planet extending a hand in peace.
 
Sadly, I lost most of my physical books, save for the Art books, Encyclopedias, and maybe 2 of the novels. I buy everything digital now, on my Kindle. My whole collection is just a tap away :)

Also, I have a 343 published Halo 4 art book signed by Frankie (with mister chief), Marty, Pete Stacker, Steve Downes, Jen Taylor, urk, Major Nelson, Sage, Tim Dadabo, and a few others. It's my prized possession, especially now that Marty's left Bungie. </3

urk didn't want to sign it because it was 343 and not Bungie, but I convinced him he's up there with all those names and he better do it :p
 
Perhaps it's just my limited 21st century thinking, and such simulations are accurate in the future...It just doesn't feel like you could feed data into a supercomputer and it could discount, say, a hostile planet extending a hand in peace.

Not a super-computer, an algorithm developed by one Dr. Carver. Halsey's algorithm was much more accurate though, but still built off his work. It took ONI 3 years to compute the same data that Halsey did, basically on scrap paper ;P I think you underestimate her abilities :p
 

CRIMSONxSERAPH

Neo Member
Perhaps it's just my limited 21st century thinking, and such simulations are accurate in the future...It just doesn't feel like you could feed data into a supercomputer and it could discount, say, a hostile planet extending a hand in peace.

I'd suspect Halsey probably didn't just write a quick program to run the simulations, but rather had some of her more advanced AI run the scenarios. She might be egotistical and proud, and she might allow her curiosity to encourage her actions, but she's not illogical. Her very nature would require her going through as many scenarios as she could muster trying to find the way in which to avoid the deaths. If we are to believe that it is indeed her personal journal and that she was writing for herself and not for a book of motive proofs to point to later, then her motive is clear. She is writing her personal struggles down in the book, and her main motive for initiating the Spartan program is because of her wanting to avoid 5B+ deaths, and if such is true, then she also most assuredly did her absolute best work in deducting whether or not that conclusion was accurate and reasonable, based on all necessary and required data. Halsey is no slacker.

tl;dr: If Halsey's journal is truly her personal journal meant for her eyes only, then her ultimate motive is to save the most human life possible. If she fabricated her journal, then she is indeed a wicked woman who cannot be trusted and deserves to be hunted down.
 
tl;dr: If Halsey's journal is truly her personal journal meant for her eyes only, then her ultimate motive is to save the most human life possible. If she fabricated her journal, then she is indeed a wicked woman who cannot be trusted and deserves to be hunted down.

I highly, highly doubt that her journal is a fabrication. It's mentioned in the Kilo-Five trilogy that ONI was able to procure her journal before Reach fell- which is why we are able to have an actual physical copy of it- it's the real deal, so to speak.
 
I highly, highly doubt that her journal is a fabrication. It's mentioned in the Kilo-Five trilogy that ONI was able to procure her journal before Reach fell- which is why we are able to have an actual physical copy of it- it's the real deal, so to speak.

Some parts are questionably altered though. Either by her (likely) or by people studying it at ONI (also likely). There's torn pages, addenda by Halsey herself way after their initial writing, transcriptions from a second journal, and the mysterious blue-hilighting that appears throughout with no seeming rhyme or reason. There's a lot in there that is questionable, but it certainly is, the real deal... so to speak ;)
 
I highly, highly doubt that her journal is a fabrication. It's mentioned in the Kilo-Five trilogy that ONI was able to procure her journal before Reach fell- which is why we are able to have an actual physical copy of it- it's the real deal, so to speak.

Yeah, any time the Journal is mentioned in Halo media, it operates as her real, personal journal.
 
Some parts are questionably altered though. Either by her (likely) or by people studying it at ONI (also likely). There's torn pages, addenda by Halsey herself way after their initial writing, transcriptions from a second journal, and the mysterious blue-hilighting that appears throughout with no seeming rhyme or reason. There's a lot in there that is questionable, but it certainly is, the real deal... so to speak ;)

Those torn pages shall haunt me until my dying breath.
Stinklespls
 
Well, a quick Google shows that about 90% of the Wages of Sin short story can be read in the Google Books preview of Evolutions II, for whatever reason, if you're interested, lol.

Just google the first line, in quotes: "i have seen more than thirteen hundred revolutions, and my time now is very short"

...and I bought Evolutions I just to read the Soma the Painter short story because I felt it would be pertinent to understanding Forerunners at some point - everything matters. Especially a viewpoint as interesting as hers.

Holy crap! I never read that and it was excellent!

Kind of surprised the Minister of Discovery didn't have a cameo in Broken Circle
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Some parts are questionably altered though. Either by her (likely) or by people studying it at ONI (also likely). There's torn pages, addenda by Halsey herself way after their initial writing, transcriptions from a second journal, and the mysterious blue-hilighting that appears throughout with no seeming rhyme or reason. There's a lot in there that is questionable, but it certainly is, the real deal... so to speak ;)

I don't think any of the altering is ONI's doing, though. Halsey like lots of people probably revisited it and her thoughts, or, in the case of her thieving ways, made sure she wouldn't badly incriminate herself.

It's kind of funny when you think about it: Despite Parangosky's influence and power, she STILL did everything she did behind Hood's back as if she knew that if she was caught read handed, he was the only person who could actually and genuinely do something about it.

Terrance must have had influence and massive respect from all of the UNSC, because considering the type of person Margaret is, she'd likely would've just did it out in the open without giving two shits.

Eh, Parangosky didn't get where she was by openly flaunting her power. I think it's Grasslands where she gives a little line to the effect of how you should only be a jerk when you really just want to twist the knife (and so she does with Halsey.) There's also the argument that openly antagonizing the rest of the navy and the UNSC could precipitate unrest or a crisis.

I do hope we get to see more of Hood in the games, though. We don't really see any fallout from Parangosky's activities behind his back. If even Lasky has cottoned on to their shit, you'd imagine he has, and I want to see him doing something about it.
 
Holy crap! I never read that and it was excellent!

Kind of surprised the Minister of Discovery didn't have a cameo in Broken Circle

It is excellent, I'm so very tempted to post the missing 2 pages from that preview, but I don't want to completely ruin the fun :p

But yeah, it is excellent, so is Soma the Painter in Evolutions I. Really cool perspective.
 
I kind of got the gist of what I assume was in those pages..

I liked how he said maybe if someone finds his research into Mendicant Bias on the Key Ship maybe they can make more sense of things.. He left it pretty open where I think it'd make a great story/plot point in the future.
 
I kind of got the gist of what I assume was in those pages..

I liked how he said maybe if someone finds his research into Mendicant Bias on the Key Ship maybe they can make more sense of things.. He left it pretty open where I think it'd make a great story/plot point in the future.

EVERYTHING points to MB. 343 are certainly holding that one for the long play I think. And his "reveal" will be glorious - even if it doesn't make it into 5, which I'm thinking will be the case.
 
So after re-watching all the H2A cut scenes, I came across a weird thought. How exactly do geis pass along? Is it first child, or is it all children, or is it a special event which causes a geis to pass on. Because Miranda Keys is the daughter of both Catherine Halsey and Jacob Keys, and since Miranda is dead, how does that effect the geis?

For example, Halsey gives birth to Miranda, Miranda now has the geis, Miranda dies, what happens to the geis? Is the geis always a copy? are there multiple versions of the same geis active at any given time? Does the geis just die out?

Just a weird thought.
 
EVERYTHING points to MB. 343 are certainly holding that one for the long play I think. And his "reveal" will be glorious - even if it doesn't make it into 5, which I'm thinking will be the case.

I can't wait.

It's been a long running build up for years and years. I'm probably more excited for that than anything else that we know is coming.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
EVERYTHING points to MB. 343 are certainly holding that one for the long play I think. And his "reveal" will be glorious - even if it doesn't make it into 5, which I'm thinking will be the case.

Maybe that particular Chekhov's gun can only be fired once a worthy adversary returns, and all other hopes have been abandoned....

primordial-concept-art-haolosjoberg.jpg


Hnnnnnnnng!
 

Fuchsdh

Member
So after re-watching all the H2A cut scenes, I came across a weird thought. How exactly do geis pass along? Is it first child, or is it all children, or is it a special event which causes a geis to pass on. Because Miranda Keys is the daughter of both Catherine Halsey and Jacob Keys, and since Miranda is dead, how does that effect the geis?

For example, Halsey gives birth to Miranda, Miranda now has the geis, Miranda dies, what happens to the geis? Is the geis always a copy? are there multiple versions of the same geis active at any given time? Does the geis just die out?

Just a weird thought.

The exact mechanism isn't explained. Modern science suggests there may actually be something to the concept of "genetic memory", but there's really no firm theory the idea of "geas" are based on.*

To me the most sense is that it's essentially scattered among certain genes that, when active, can coalesce into a geas. Thus it can be passed on but only certain individuals could have one. Alternatively, it could be coded into our introns—inactive segments of DNA that are essentially junk aside from telling your body where to start and stop transcription.

On the other hand, the Librarian's act of "choosing" people in Cryptum suggests that she might have deliberately planted geas in individuals, so they might fragment or reintegrate over time via the methods I mentioned.

*Sidebar: I still have no idea how to pronounce "geas". I really don't even remember if the Greg Bear audio bits that were released on the website following Silentium used the word either. Anyone who's listened to the audio books, can you tell me? Also, how the hell do you pluralize geas? geasii? geases? Still geas?
 
*Sidebar: I still have no idea how to pronounce "geas". I really don't even remember if the Greg Bear audio bits that were released on the website following Silentium used the word either. Anyone who's listened to the audio books, can you tell me? Also, how the hell do you pluralize geas? geasii? geases? Still geas?

*edit: Gay-osh/Gay-oz according to Bear reading

I think "geas" is the plural of "geis".

To make it more confusing, 343GS says it as such: https://youtu.be/yiLemCZ0Fq4?t=101

Gay-Eye

I still don't know.

edit: Greg Bear from Silentium Rebirth: https://youtu.be/YGR1V7IRLXs?t=392
 
Modern science suggests there may actually be something to the concept of "genetic memory"

No, no it doesn't, at least as presented in pop science (i.e. literal cognitive memories being stored genetically and passed on to future generations). There are some other concepts that are described as genetic memory that are seriously discussed, but they're not really the same thing (such as adaptive immunities being "stored" genetically or the storing and silencing of past genetic adaptations that are not currently useful, for use by future generations).

*Sidebar: I still have no idea how to pronounce "geas". I really don't even remember if the Greg Bear audio bits that were released on the website following Silentium used the word either. Anyone who's listened to the audio books, can you tell me? Also, how the hell do you pluralize geas? geasii? geases? Still geas?

It's "gay-osh". It's said in the audio version Silentium: Rebirth.

Edit: beaten
 
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