• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Halo |OT 25| Did you think me defeated?!"

Trup1aya

Member
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.

The audience is never just 'there'. It has to be built and maintained.

Halo needs to build an audience. The attitude that it's trajectory was unavoidable, and that there's no chance at improving, limits the franchises potential.

I don't know if it was bad data or unreliable focus groups, but ever since Reach, this franchise has been following the wrong trends-

you look at H4, MCC & 5, and realize that they launched w/o Firefight. halo helped start this trend- then PvE horde became one of the most important and exploitable elements of console FPS- and we get rid of it?!?!?!

We DID get the short-lived Spartan Ops- which felt like a effortless attempt at the sort of experience that Destiny would eventually come along and perfect. Again, the halo Franchise misses the boat- despite being right there on the docks, watching passsenger load onto it.

Post Bungie, We've also dealt with gimped theater and forge modes (and late forge in H5) - items that historically were critical parts of Halo's social media presence- a presence that is now more important than ever.

We definately have a problem with the youth- it's true many don't know shit about halo or its characters. Then, I learn about a beautiful, yet cancelled megablox title, that had the looks of a perfect bridge between generations. For all the talk about how Halo wants to emulate Star Wars, I haven't seen any of emulating Disney's effort to appeal to new generations. EXCEPT---

---Advanced movement, frivolous ranking systems, And RNG microtransaction systems- items that don't seem to lead to growth.
 
Worth noting out loud is the updates to Halo 5 have really pushed the engine, studio, content and tweaks to a workable solution for the audience to be attracted and retained or re-enticed as other games or fresh content come out. I hope they don't redevelop everything again for Halo 6, just focus on an incredible launch package with a massive 6 months of sustain and content. Games as a service are great and modes like WZ/REQs drive that but launching with old school halo, competitive halo, crazy halo and delivering more up front consistently is the path IMO.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.
If only we didn't have sprint, then they'd be playing.
 

Juan

Member
My cousins were over this weekend. I always use them as a barometer for whats hip these days. It is crazy how quick you become an old man. They have their fidget spinners and were telling me about all these rappers and musicians I didn't even know. They used to watch me play Halo 3. Then they would beg to play Halo Reach against me. Then they bought H4 but never played it. Halo 5 is a nonfactor to them. They don't know who Cortana is. Who even Master Chief is. One of them said their entire class has preordered Destiny 2 and they only play NBA 2K, FIFA, Overwatch and stuff. Halo 6 isn't even on their radar. Nor do they care about eSports or competitive. Was very eye opening. I think even if H6 somehow tops H5, the audience just isn't there.

How old are you Madness? Just curious to know if I should feel old too.

About Destiny, I bet Bungie didn't really target the youngest specifically, but the colorful visual, the light tone and the good feelings surrounding the game make it appealing to a younger audience, a bit like OverWatch, a visual that can talk to the youngest but a game that can be appealing to everyone.

Halo lost a lot of this when 343 took over and changed everything about the art direction. I'm not sure Halo can ever recover from this.
 
If only we didn't have sprint, then they'd be playing.

#gamechanger lol

How old are you Madness? Just curious to know if I should feel old too.

About Destiny, I bet Bungie didn't really target the youngest specifically, but the colorful visual, the light tone and the good feelings surrounding the game make it appealing to a younger audience, a bit like OverWatch, a visual that can talk to the youngest but a game that can be appealing to everyone.

Halo lost a lot of this when 343 took over and changed everything about the art direction. I'm not sure Halo can ever recover from this.

Destiny's success is due to the type of game it is. Games that are really popular now are loot based games. Simple. Games where loot is a huge part of the game are what people want now. Thats exactly why ive been saying for about a year now that halo needs to make its single player (at the very least) loot based. If they dont, i dont care how good the MP is, Halo will be at the same level as 4 and 5, no better.

When i first said that people laughed at me. This is what you need to do for your game to compete and succeed now. Its not kill streaks, its not arena style, its loot based games. Destiny combines co-op and loot in all its game modes and people get 'addicted' to leveling up their guy with the best gear. Thats why this shit works. Thats why Division also ended up one of ubisoft best selling games.

Its written all over the walls and no one seems to see it.
 

Juan

Member
Destiny's success is due to the type of game it is. Games that are really popular now are loot based games. Simple. Games where loot is a huge part of the game are what people want now. Thats exactly why ive been saying for about a year now that halo needs to make its single player (at the very least) loot based. If they dont, i dont care how good the MP is, Halo will be at the same level as 4 and 5, no better.

When i first said that people laughed at me. This is what you need to do for your game to compete and succeed now. Its not kill streaks, its not arena style, its loot based games. Destiny combines co-op and loot in all its game modes and people get 'addicted' to leveling up their guy with the best gear. Thats why this shit works. Thats why Division also ended up one of ubisoft best selling games.

Its written all over the walls and no one seems to see it.

Not sure Raimbox Six Siege agrees here, but it really depends on what kind of loot you're talking about.

If you talking about getting armors for cosmetic customization, weapon skins and REQ points through Firefight-like-missions or replayable short campaign missions like the Spartan Ops instead of just buying REQ Packs, sure why not, it could be really fun, especially if you add skulls and change the mission every weeks like Destiny is doing with Nightfall Strike.

But if you're talking about leveling and grinding in Halo for the purpose of player customization and loot, hell no.

I wish Halo to be popular again, but not by prostituting the base game just to appeal to the modern market.
 

Trup1aya

Member
#gamechanger lol



Destiny's success is due to the type of game it is. Games that are really popular now are loot based games. Simple. Games where loot is a huge part of the game are what people want now. Thats exactly why ive been saying for about a year now that halo needs to make its single player (at the very least) loot based. If they dont, i dont care how good the MP is, Halo will be at the same level as 4 and 5, no better.

When i first said that people laughed at me. This is what you need to do for your game to compete and succeed now. Its not kill streaks, its not arena style, its loot based games. Destiny combines co-op and loot in all its game modes and people get 'addicted' to leveling up their guy with the best gear. Thats why this shit works. Thats why Division also ended up one of ubisoft best selling games.

Its written all over the walls and no one seems to see it.

People don't buy games simply BECAUSE they have loot systems. The loot system is simply a progression- something that keeps people inside once they enter the door.

A better progression system would certainly do wonders for Halo's retention. But Halo is struggling to get people in the door in the first place.

Halo 5s req system is very similar to Overwatch's loot box system. the latter took off - a new IP in a challenging FPS landscape, meanwhile halo remains suspended in mediocrity.

In the quest to understand why Halo has failed to keep up with its old competition or with its new competion, why are we so hesitant to accept that the gameplay just doesn't stack up?

Halo 5, like Destiny, also aimed to get people hooked on acquiring the best Armor and Weapons for their character. But farming people (or getting farmed) in Warzone, or fighting against convoluted controls in Arena for Req packs isn't as fun as going on Strikes with pals in a game that controls like a dream.

Halo had Firefight, then it had Spartan OPs- those two concepts are like mama and papa to a co-op based game with a loot progression system. H5 launched without either.
 

raindoc

Member
People don't buy games simply BECAUSE they have loot systems. The loot system is simply a progression- something that gets people to keep people inside once they enter the door.

A better progression system would certainly do wonders for Halo's retention. But Halo is struggling to get people in the door in the first place.

Halo 5s req system is very similar to Overwatch's loot box system. the latter took off - a new IP in a challenging FPS landscape, meanwhile halo remains suspended in mediocrity.

In the quest to understand why Halo has failed to keep up with its old competition or with its new competion, why are we so hesitant to accept that the gameplay just doesn't stack up?

Halo 5, like Destiny, also aimed to get people hooked on acquiring the best Armor and Weapons for their character. But farming people (or getting farmed) in Warzone, or fighting against convoluted controls in Arena for Req packs isn't as fun as going on Strikes with pals in a game that controls like a dream.

Halo had Firefight, then it had Spartan OPs- those two concepts are like mama and papa to a co-op based game with a loot progression system. H5 launched without either.

Agreed. But I'm also an old fart and I don't want to give up on old school halo campaigns. I'd like to take spartan ops/warzone and throw in H5's "dual fireteams" in a way that gives us an oldschool campaign through "Blue Team Missions" and "Fireteam XY" missions/strikes/whatever with higher replay value for our own, fully customizable spartans...
 
People don't buy games simply BECAUSE they have loot systems. The loot system is simply a progression- something that gets people to keep people inside once they enter the door.

A better progression system would certainly do wonders for Halo's retention. But Halo is struggling to get people in the door in the first place.

Halo 5s req system is very similar to Overwatch's loot box system. the latter took off - a new IP in a challenging FPS landscape, meanwhile halo remains suspended in mediocrity.

In the quest to understand why Halo has failed to keep up with its old competition or with its new competion, why are we so hesitant to accept that the gameplay just doesn't stack up?

Halo 5, like Destiny, also aimed to get people hooked on acquiring the best Armor and Weapons for their character. But farming people (or getting farmed) in Warzone, or fighting against convoluted controls in Arena for Req packs isn't as fun as going on Strikes with pals in a game that controls like a dream.

Halo had Firefight, then it had Spartan OPs- those two concepts are like mama and papa to a co-op based game with a loot progression system. H5 launched without either.

People do buy games because they have loot systems. You actually believe that Destiny 2 would have any kind of hype right now if they removed the loot system altogether? It wouldn't. It would essentially be another Halo.

And if Halo is struggling to get people in the door, its funny how it never had that problem before. Maybe shipping broken games or games with a bunch of missing game-types isnt helping halo? Halos motto seems to be: Get it out the door and finish it later. That was never the case pre 343. But thats a different problem. RIP btb.

Id argue that it took off in overwatch because the base game was so good that people just started to use the loot boxes because they play the game so much. I dont think people play for the loot boxes in that game. I think they stayed cause the game was good and the loot boxes were just "there" so why not use them. I personally think the loot system in general in overwatch is fucking terrible. Grind to get a skin that i can paint on a wall and serves no other purpose other than maybe while you wait at the start before the doors open? That shit is terrible. It just happens to be in a very good game.

And i dont agree that the gameplay doesnt stack up, because destinys gameplay stacks up fine and the gameplay in that is essecially halo, only with more sponge. If its ok in destiny and desiny is essentially halo, why would it not stack up for halo? Maybe gameplay isnt the problem. Maybe the delivery of this gameplay is.

And i agree with you. Its not as fun to go in warzone than it is do do strikes. Warzone is no fun at all once you get your daily win packs. I dont even bother playing a second game cause i know ill get nothing from it. Also, in warzone some people dont wanna use their good cards cause they dont wanna use one and die right away. So they end up playing the whole game using the shit they have too much of or default guns. It sucks when you use a halo ce pistol only to get killed 30 seconds in and lose it. So most people dont use them for fear of losing it fast. Thats not fun and doesnt promote fun.

Reqs should come as loot. If i get the halo ce pistol card, let me keep it forever and use it as many times as i want. But put different tiers or levels to it so you can upgrade it and get better ones. There are ways to do it better. I personally dont like how warzone does it which is why i never play it.

Plus, theres no point to keep playing warzone all night. Back in the day, id play halo2 or 3 for hours and hours because id try to get to a certain rank or something. In warzone, theres no point. Ill play my daily win then im done. Theres no reason to keep gong back to it.

Loot is one aspect of what makes games popular now. But having it isnt enough. You have to do loot right. Halo doesnt do it right, it just does it and It could do it a lot better.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
People do buy games because they have loot systems. You actually believe that Destiny 2 would have any kind of hype right now if they removed the loot system altogether? It wouldn't. It would essentially be another Halo.

And if Halo is struggling to get people in the door, its funny how it never had that problem before. Maybe shipping broken games or games with a bunch of missing game-types isnt helping halo? Halos motto seems to be: Get it out the door and finish it later. That was never the case pre 343. But thats a different problem. RIP btb.

As the recent Vice article made abundantly clear, that's more because Bungie was making Halo games at a time when they couldn't get away with that.
 
As the recent Vice article made abundantly clear, that's more because Bungie was making Halo games at a time when they couldn't get away with that.

That still doesnt excuse BTB not having a single dev made map after all this time or having so many halo gametypes completely vanish to never return. juggernaut? oddball? Those were shitty decisions made by them.
 

Juan

Member
Reqs should come as loot. If i get the halo ce pistol card, let me keep it forever and use it as many times as i want. But put different tiers or levels to it so you can upgrade it and get better ones. There are ways to do it better. I personally dont like how warzone does it which is why i never play it.

#lolOneShotKillHaloCELevel3Pistol

#lolPayToWin
 

Juan

Member
Cause its not pay to win as it is now? Have to tried playing warzone and not using any cards recently? Youll get destroyed.

I won ton of Warzone games PvP without using power weapons actually, only my BR/Magnum and some of the time, yeah, taking a simple Sniper Rifle. But I do like having REQs Weapon when I was playing in Firefight Warzone and using powerful weapons in PvE.

Actually, in Warzone, I did have some fun by stealing other players Legendary weapons.

But I didn't play Warzone (even Halo 5 in fact) since like 9/10 months because that's not why I go to Halo for. And because I don't find Halo 5 being a fun game.

See, people go to a game because it is fun or challenges player, they don't go there only for loot. Loot wasn't the big pillar for Destiny. If you're curious, Bungie gave a GDC conference about this topic. They put loot in because it was a way to reward people for activities and giving them better tools to play with for this same activity, making more fun and challenging in higher difficulty, but they did not think about loot like being the main element for Destiny. They thought people would buy weapons to the vendor at the Tower and just feel happy to get stuff after a Strike or a Raid.

So it wasn't advertise as a primary loot game, just something that was a bonus. And people liked the game because it was fun in term of gameplay, and this bonus was cool, but dude how the loot was frustrating in Destiny for like 1 year after launch.

Then it got better, and as Bungie saw people liked this aspect of game, they are turning D2 into a loot machine, sure, but Halo don't need that since it wasn't the appeal of this franchise.

And about REQ weapons, using REQ in a PvE and PvP environnement is a complete different thing. Sure, in PvP, I wouldn't use my best cards since I know I could loose it within a few seconds. But in PvE? Hell I don't care, I just want to have fun and I will use my best weapons just to smash the Covenant and see the cool effects it can have against AI and Bosses.

So again, make loot (armors, skins, maybe voices) as a reward for activities and challenges, yeah, I'm totally in, create content that can suits the game, but don't make Halo all about it.
 
Eww. You guys talking about progression systems, skins, reqs, and loot in Halo is not going to solve any problems we have. Smells like desperation.

Focusing on what other games have and trying to milk it into Halo is the reason for Halo's demise in the first place.

Halo needs to be distinct and refreshing. A trend setter, not a follower. That's the spirit of Halo.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Agreed. But I'm also an old fart and I don't want to give up on old school halo campaigns. I'd like to take spartan ops/warzone and throw in H5's "dual fireteams" in a way that gives us an oldschool campaign through "Blue Team Missions" and "Fireteam XY" missions/strikes/whatever with higher replay value for our own, fully customizable spartans...

Yeah I don't want to give up on old school campaigns either.

My ideal, future proof Halo game would have:

1) my old school campaigns: solo focused- but a friend can jump in (none of this fireteam nonsense)

2) Spartan Ops 2.0 : co-op + loot driven, updated regularly

3) Arena + BTB with dev created content and a ton of gametypes

4) Warzone

5) custom server browser

343i, PM for payment instructions
 
I won ton of Warzone games PvP without using power weapons actually, only my BR/Magnum and some of the time, yeah, taking a simple Sniper Rifle. But I do like having REQs Weapon when I was playing in Firefight Warzone and using powerful weapons in PvE.

Actually, in Warzone, I did have some fun by stealing other players Legendary weapons.

But I didn't play Warzone (even Halo 5 in fact) since like 9/10 months because that's not why I go to Halo for. And because I don't find Halo 5 being a fun game.

See, people go to a game because it is fun or challenges player, they don't go there only for loot. Loot wasn't the big pillar for Destiny. If you're curious, Bungie gave a GDC conference about this topic. They put loot in because it was a way to reward people for activities and giving them better tools to play with for this same activity, making more fun and challenging in higher difficulty, but they did not think about loot like being the main element for Destiny. They thought people would buy weapons to the vendor at the Tower and just feel happy to get stuff after a Strike or a Raid.

So it wasn't advertise as a primary loot game, just something that was a bonus. And people liked the game because it was fun in term of gameplay, and this bonus was cool, but dude how the loot was frustrating in Destiny for like 1 year after launch.

Then it got better, and as Bungie saw people liked this aspect of game, they are turning D2 into a loot machine, sure, but Halo don't need that since it wasn't the appeal of this franchise.

And about REQ weapons, using REQ in a PvE and PvP environnement is a complete different thing. Sure, in PvP, I wouldn't use my best cards since I know I could loose it within a few seconds. But in PvE? Hell I don't care, I just want to have fun and I will use my best weapons just to smash the Covenant and see the cool effects it can have against AI and Bosses.

So again, make loot (armors, skins, maybe voices) as a reward for activities and challenges, yeah, I'm totally in, create content that can suits the game, but don't make Halo all about it.

Im not saying it needs to become Destiny. But i wouldnt mind a reason to replay the game. Theres absolutely no reason to redo the campaign for example. If you could get a Halo CE special edition gun from redoing parts of the campaign, accomplishing tasks, id do it in a second. Give me a reason to go back. People dont play games just for fun anymore, they need reasons to keep grinding. Destiny is successful because it rewards you playing all parts of the game. COD too in a way. Youd keep playing it to unlock everything on your fav guns, skins etc. Games that are popular give a reason to players to keep grinding and coming back. Halo5 doesnt. If you dont play warzone, youll never care about the reqs. Thats the point im trying to make. I dunno how many players ive watched on twitch with this insane amount of unopened cards and REQ points. They dont even use them. If people arent inclied to use them, then something is wrong.

But i guarantee you that everyone that played COD unlocked and equipped some equipment for their guns or armor for their characters in destiny. Halo doesnt do it right and its not helping it.

Eww. You guys talking about progression systems, skins, reqs, and loot in Halo is not going to solve any problems we have. Smells like desperation.

Focusing on what other games have and trying to milk it into Halo is the reason for Halo's demise in the first place.

Halo needs to be distinct and refreshing. A trend setter, not a follower. That's the spirit of Halo.

343 have not shown me once that they are even capable of "trend setting".
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
343 is in a difficult position for sure. Hard to be a trend setter when you fans clamoring for Halo 3. I think with Halo 5 the mechanics are there, they need to hit it out of the park day 1.
 
343 is in a difficult position for sure. Hard to be a trend setter when you fans clamoring for Halo 3. I think with Halo 5 the mechanics are there, they need to hit it out of the park day 1.

Thats another thing. Be a trend setter, but remove sprint, remove clamber and make it play like halo2 or 3. But in a trend setting kinda way. Its ridiculous.

To be a trend setter, you need to be ahead of the curve. You need to come up with the ideas that halo is struggling to keep up with now. Bungie was able to do this. 343.....im not sure.
 

Trup1aya

Member
People do buy games because they have loot systems. You actually believe that Destiny 2 would have any kind of hype right now if they removed the loot system altogether? It wouldn't. It would essentially be another Halo.

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. If Destiny 1 was not fun to play, no one would have stuck around to collect the loot. If Destiny 1 was not fun to play, people would not be excited for Destiny 2.

And if Halo is struggling to get people in the door, its funny how it never had that problem before. Maybe shipping broken games or games with a bunch of missing game-types isnt helping halo? Halos motto seems to be: Get it out the door and finish it later. That was never the case pre 343. But thats a different problem. RIP btb.

Yes, none of this helped. And throwing loot into each of these games wouldn't have helped either... because they would still have the quality issues...

Id argue that it took off in overwatch because the base game was so good that people just started to use the loot boxes because they play the game so much. I dont think people play for the loot boxes in that game. I think they stayed cause the game was good and the loot boxes were just "there" so why not use them. I personally think the loot system in general in overwatch is fucking terrible. Grind to get a skin that i can paint on a wall and serves no other purpose other than maybe while you wait at the start before the doors open? That shit is terrible. It just happens to be in a very good game.

So basically your saying the quality of the gameplay is what gets people in the door, not the progression system? Sounds like EXACTLY what's I've been arguing.

Why is it that a brand new FPS IP, with very little content, with a shitty progression system and basic movement mechanics can thrive against the same competition Halo now falters against?

And i dont agree that the gameplay doesnt stack up, because destinys gameplay stacks up fine and the gameplay in that is essecially halo, only with more sponge. If its ok in destiny and desiny is essentially halo, why would it not stack up for halo? Maybe gameplay isnt the problem. Maybe the delivery of this gameplay is.

The problem with this argument is that Destiny and Halo are fundamentally different games, so the assumption that similar gameplay design would serve each title similarly is patently false.

Destiny is primary a PvE game, so everything from the customizable movement mechanics, to the weapons sandbox, is designed around making sure that shooting and being shot by AI characters is fun. This is why there are few complaints about the advanced mobility, the copious amount of aim assists on every weapon, and the effortless gratification of Supers.

Halo, on the other hand requires much more attention to the PvP experience. Which is why the audience has become so split with regards to the changes to the sandbox, because they inherently require compromises in the PvP game

So no, just because Destiny's gameplay works for Destiny doesn't mean it works for Halo. Also, in the gameplay department, Halo5 has had both terrible aiming system and unbalanced weapon sandbox for most of its life.

(Edit: I'll add that sprinting, sliding, thrusting, groundpound, and even clamber actually feel good. But I , and many others simply don't like the PvP compromises associated with these abilities. The implementation of GP has put a delay in melee registration. Clamber has turned platforming into a "forward only" activity. Sprint and the accompanying stretching of maps, has done the same thing to navigation. Since all the buttons are tied up, stabilize is strangely paired with zoom. And Spartan Charge is dumb as fuck)

And i agree with you. Its not as fun to go in warzone than it is do do strikes. Warzone is no fun at all once you get your daily win packs. I dont even bother playing a second game cause i know ill get nothing from it. Also, in warzone some people dont wanna use their good cards cause they dont wanna use one and die right away. So they end up playing the whole game using the shit they have too much of or default guns. It sucks when you use a halo ce pistol only to get killed 30 seconds in and lose it. So most people dont use them for fear of losing it fast. Thats not fun and doesnt promote fun.

Reqs should come as loot. If i get the halo ce pistol card, let me keep it forever and use it as many times as i want. But put different tiers or levels to it so you can upgrade it and get better ones. There are ways to do it better. I personally dont like how warzone does it which is why i never play it.

Plus, theres no point to keep playing warzone all night. Back in the day, id play halo2 or 3 for hours and hours because id try to get to a certain rank or something. In warzone, theres no point. Ill play my daily win then im done. Theres no reason to keep gong back to it.

Loot is one aspect of what makes games popular now. But having it isnt enough. You have to do loot right. Halo doesnt do it right, it just does it and It could do it a lot better.

There are a ton of things that could be done to make the Req system a more rewarding loot system. But if they don't make the game itself more fun (Warzone and Arena), it won't matter how good the loot system is. If people don't like the ACT of acquiring the loot, then they won't care for the loot itself.
 

Juan

Member
But i guarantee you that everyone that played COD unlocked and equipped some equipment for their guns or armor for their characters in destiny. Halo doesnt do it right and its not helping it.

Did you like Reach's armory system, with buying armors and customization using credits?

Actually, that's something I would be okay to see back in Halo.

@Fahzgoolin: Sure, we're only talking about additional stuff, but the core of Halo still need to find his way (back to classic gameplay).

The problem with this argument is that Destiny and Halo are fundamentally different games, so the assumption that similar gameplay design would serve each titles similarly is patently false.

Destiny is primary a PvE game, so everything from the customizable movement mechanics, to the weapons sandbox, is designed around making sure that shooting and being shot by AI characters is fun. This is why there are few complaints about the advanced mobility, the copious amount of aim assists on every weapon, and the effortless gratification of Supers.

Halo, on the other hand requires much more attention to the PvP experience. Which is why the audience has become so split with regards to the changes to the sandbox, because they inherently require compromises in the PvP game

100% agree.
 

Trup1aya

Member
343 is in a difficult position for sure. Hard to be a trend setter when you fans clamoring for Halo 3. I think with Halo 5 the mechanics are there, they need to hit it out of the park day 1.

Thats another thing. Be a trend setter, but remove sprint, remove clamber and make it play like halo2 or 3. But in a trend setting kinda way. Its ridiculous.

To be a trend setter, you need to be ahead of the curve. You need to come up with the ideas that halo is struggling to keep up with now. Bungie was able to do this. 343.....im not sure.

This is a terrible interpretation of the sprint argument.

Nobody wants 343 to settle for making H3. Members of the community have well documented reasons for why they feel Halo works better when the player can move his avatar at top speed in any direction, without loosing the ability to shoot.

Any new trends should start with the uncompromising take on locomotion than helped propel the series.

The idea that 343 can't set trends while also removing sprint and clamber is nonsense.
 
Did you like Reach's armory system, with buying armors and customization using credits?

Actually, that's something I would be okay to see back in Halo.

@Fahzgoolin: Sure, we're only talking about additional stuff, but the core of Halo still need to find his way (back to classic gameplay).

I didn't like it in Reach cause it took forever to get anything. Ranking up was sooo long that at one point i just didn't care anymore. Then you'd get to a good rank and all they gave you were new options for you to buy but that were still locked until the next rank...Ok so you just put new item in the store for me that are still locked...gee thx

But yes i prefer than to randomness of cards, if done right.
 
This is a terrible interpretation of the sprint argument.

Nobody wants 343 to settle for making H3. Members of the community have well documented reasons for why they feel Halo works better when the player can move his avatar at top speed in any direction, without loosing the ability to shoot.

Any new trends should start with the uncompromising take on locomotion than helped propel the series.

The idea that 343 can't set trends while also removing sprint and clamber is nonsense.

343 will never be able because any change they will make that wasn't already in the previous games will be met with complains and whining.

double post sorry

anyway honestly, all they are doing is making me play other games like destiny to get my fix. if thats what theyre satisfied with then good luck.
 

Trup1aya

Member
343 will never be able because any change they will make that wasn't already in the previous games will be met with complains and whining.

double post sorry

anyway honestly, all they are doing is making me play other games like destiny to get my fix. if thats what theyre satisfied with then good luck.

1) people have been complaining since H2
2) people have been going to other games to get their fix since Reach

Why can't people who like classic halo principles get new games to get their fix? Why just cater to this rapidly shrinking new school base of fans?

That said, there are ways to modernize the old school formula without betraying the design priciples established by the original trilogy. There quite a few good things i'd personally like to see carried over from H5 and put into a game that uses classic halo as a base.
 
1) people have been complaining since H2
2) people have been going to other games to get their fix since Reach

Why can't people who like classic halo principles get new games to get their fix? Why just cater to this rapidly shrinking new school base of fans?

That said, there are ways to modernize the old school formula without betraying the design priciples established by the original trilogy. There quite a few good things i'd personally like to see carried over from H5 and put into a game that uses classic halo as a base.

Im open to try it but i honestly dont have much faith in 343 anymore.
 
Eww. You guys talking about progression systems, skins, reqs, and loot in Halo is not going to solve any problems we have. Smells like desperation.

Focusing on what other games have and trying to milk it into Halo is the reason for Halo's demise in the first place.

Halo needs to be distinct and refreshing. A trend setter, not a follower. That's the spirit of Halo.

That's why thruster works as it was inspired, whereas smart scope and sprint were chasing genre tropes and hurt the mechanics/map design overall.
 

CyReN

Member
All these idea's about what Halo should be and I'm just sitting here hoping they don't add wall-running.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
All these idea's about what Halo should be and I'm just sitting here hoping they don't add wall-running.

I hope they don't add shit to the movement mechanics. I'm not necessarily anti sprint, give me halo ce/2/3, but I do think halo 5 is a bit convoluted in this sense. I wouldn't mind them taking what they got with 5 and pairing it back a bit, in fact I'd cheer it.
 
I never understood why they haven't even bothered to make sprint a gradual ramping up to full speed. If they seriously insist on keeping it in, I feel like smoothly ramping up into the top speed would keep it's functionality more in line with it's intention (spanning large gaps in maps), instead of a crutch used by everyone. Then again, I don't know why upping the base movement speed wouldn't be a satisfactory idea, especially considering there are plenty of shooters lately without the need to add sprint.
 
All these idea's about what Halo should be and I'm just sitting here hoping they don't add wall-running.
lmao, man.. I'm just hoping we see Mk. V in the game on day one!

Never forget:
Halo-5-Guardians-Mark-V-Alpha-Red-Front.png
 

jdouglas

Member
This is a terrible interpretation of the sprint argument.

Nobody that's left wants 343 to settle for making H3. Members of the community have well documented reasons for why they feel Halo works better when the player can move his avatar at top speed in any direction, without loosing the ability to shoot.

Any new trends should start with the uncompromising take on locomotion than helped propel the series.

The idea that 343 can't set trends while also removing sprint and clamber is nonsense.

ftfy
 
That's why thruster works as it was inspired, whereas smart scope and sprint were chasing genre tropes and hurt the mechanics/map design overall.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing those features go. Sprint screws with the flow of movement and Smart Scope obstructs the player's view too much. I really liked how 343i did zoom for Halo 4; it looked much better than Bungie's designs yet stayed true to the mechanic, like with the DMR, for example:

No one wants or needs a loot-based Halo 6. That would be a terrible direction to take this franchise.

I'd hate to see Halo move in this direction, and I think the REQ system has brought us dangerously close to it. Now I understand that Warzone is a popular mode, and since the REQ system is essential to that mode - as well as how profitable it is - I doubt Microsoft would allow 343i move away from it unless they can present an alternative system that is just as profitable, if not more.

A loot box system could possibly accomplish this, and if something akin to Overwatch might be a solid replacement if 343i is able to flesh out cosmetics in an appealing way. If the art style changes for the better and we see a greater quality in armor, as well as the level of customization we once had, this system would totally be possible. Maybe even scraps could be integrated so "Legendary" loot, whatever that would be, could be bought. But to make Halo loot-based completely, with weapons and upgrades included, it would be very compromising to Halo as a game. And why move from a trend setter like Destiny to some old franchise trying to learn new tricks?

So long as the REQ system doesn't touch Arena, I can live with it, and if an Overwatch-like loot system allows for Warzone to be reformed to be less REQ based then I could probably get behind that too so, but most importantly DLC needs to stay free.

Eww. You guys talking about progression systems, skins, reqs, and loot in Halo is not going to solve any problems we have. Smells like desperation.

Focusing on what other games have and trying to milk it into Halo is the reason for Halo's demise in the first place.

Halo needs to be distinct and refreshing. A trend setter, not a follower. That's the spirit of Halo.

You definitely have a point about the adoption of ideas from competitors, however monetary ones are necessary to look since that is an important trend to follow, especially when free DLC is in question. But I think Halo is beyond the point of setting trends, gaming has moved far beyond Halo, we're two generations behind; the formula dominated original Xbox, but the CoD formula quickly took over for the next generation, and now new, fresh formulas are beginning to take its place. We're in a bit of a dismal situation now, and while there may be a few paths towards regaining some popularity, I don't think setting trends will be thing to do it because that time has come and passed.

Despite what Halo 4 and Halo 5 did right for the franchise, they did enough wrong to turn a lot of people off from the series. The past two campaigns have gone for a widely unwanted angle when it comes to both level design and story, while multiplayer has found failings in terms of deviation from the core (4) and lack of content (5). The core experience - the full package - needs to evolve or be expanded on in ways that are not compromising to what made Halo what it was. Story, for example, cannot be so heavily reliant on telling a complex narrative based in the expanded universe, despite how well it is done. Halo 4 did a great job with the story, but the majority of player were not able to understand that because they aren't going to read the ~5 books necessary to wrap their heads around all of the characters', factions', and locations' backgrounds to properly enjoy it.

The same goes somewhat for Halo 5, however the story got a bit muddled and took some wrong turns along the way, which happens but can always be fixed with some effort. What the story needs to be, like it was originally, is an interesting and compelling establishment of context in the campaign, so your actions feel like they have weight to them. We know the stakes, but we need to feel them too. Levels have also become too linear and scripted, which has made Halo lose something that used to make it stand out. AI could use some more attention, too.

I'm sure Halo 6 will be better received if 343i can finally find a way to get their Halo games to have the same charm as Bungie's did, because that is what has been sorely missing since Reach; after all, people are forgiving towards that game's shortcomings for a reason.
 

Juan

Member

Can you use the "Return" button on your keyboard next time you're writing something big (not sure it is correct, but having a better formatting)?

I mean, your post is interesting and I agree with most of it, but it's really hard to read right now. Thx :)
 

E92 M3

Member
How old are you Madness? Just curious to know if I should feel old too.

About Destiny, I bet Bungie didn't really target the youngest specifically, but the colorful visual, the light tone and the good feelings surrounding the game make it appealing to a younger audience, a bit like OverWatch, a visual that can talk to the youngest but a game that can be appealing to everyone.

Halo lost a lot of this when 343 took over and changed everything about the art direction. I'm not sure Halo can ever recover from this.

The art direction in Halo 5 is absolutely atrocious. A single map in Destiny has more appeal/character than anything in Halo 5. Bungie have always been the gods of art.

"Here we have industrial complex A. On the other side we have industrial complex B with some grass. Here we have an industrial complex that is underwater. Looking up ahead is industrial complex C at night."

All blame goes on the people deciding the art direction, not the artists themselves.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
The art direction in Halo 5 is absolutely atrocious. A single map in Destiny has more appeal/character than anything in Halo 5. Bungie have always been the gods of art.

"Here we have industrial complex A. On the other side we have industrial complex B with some grass. Here we have an industrial complex that is underwater. Looking up ahead is industrial complex C at night."

All blame goes on the people deciding the art direction, not the artists themselves.

I disagree. I'd say halo 5 has too many industrial human maps, but taken individually they all look really nice, especially fathom (and excluding rig). fact, I'd extend this comment to the entire game. Design wise, it's all very attractive, but it has lost at least some of the "halo" charm
 

E92 M3

Member
I disagree. I'd say halo 5 has too many industrial human maps, but taken individually they all look really nice, especially fathom (and excluding rig). fact, I'd extend this comment to the entire game. Design wise, it's all very attractive, but it has lost at least some of the "halo" charm

The beauty of art is that it's completely subjective, and I think it's ugly as sin. None of the maps evoke any feelings or emotions. Just industrial everything - lost a lot of the Halo charm.
 

jem0208

Member
I disagree. I'd say halo 5 has too many industrial human maps, but taken individually they all look really nice, especially fathom (and excluding rig). fact, I'd extend this comment to the entire game. Design wise, it's all very attractive, but it has lost at least some of the "halo" charm
I agree.

There's too much repetition but taken alone it's really quite nice.


The Sanghelios theme is easily my favourite environment design in Halo, it's absolutely gorgeous.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I'm not one to care much about aesthetics- my issue with the art design is there are way too many instances where Form was chosen over function.

Overly complex geometry where crevices shield opponents from grenade/rocket damage. Ankle high lips and railings the inexplicable hamper movement. Sightlines disrupted by random accents like wires and vines. Blinding light sources.

Then there's the washed out color pallet, which disrupts the design language used to communicate different enemy types.

Then there's stuff like Smart-scope and weapons profiles that look to similar.

I preferred Bungie's old style... but I really don't care about style. I do care about how artistic choices disrupt gameplay (they shouldn't)
 

jem0208

Member
Pretty sure those ankle high ledges are by design. Stops players thrusting/dropping off a ledge as soon as they're shot.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Pretty sure those ankle high ledges are by design. Stops players thrusting/dropping off a ledge as soon as they're shot.

Sure, but It's bad design. You have ankle high ledges and drops spots all on the same catwalk. So why not make the ledges high enough for the players to see them?

It's inconsistent and annoying.
 
Overly complex geometry where crevices shield opponents from grenade/rocket damage. Ankle high lips and railings the inexplicable hamper movement. Sightlines disrupted by random accents like wires and vines. Blinding light sources.
Can't stress this enough. It has been a problem since Halo 3 and it's so damn annoying.
 
Top Bottom