Mmmmmm, Destiny.
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Halo |OT15| Beta-tested, GAF approved
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Mmmmmm, Destiny.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
The point Im making is, people on here keep talking about back when Halo was the number one shooter. Influencing everything around it. Those days are long gone. Other games are gonna be influenced by Halo 4? Not a fucking hope.
Everyone wants to be the next Cod, whereas once upon a time everyone wanted to be the next Halo.
In Halos prime you had the competition copying Halos features : 2 gun limit, recharging health, all the way through to Halo 2 matchmaking infrastructure, Halo 3s theatre etc.
Now you have Halo copying Cod features.
Halo had its time with the crown, and going the way its going it wont be back on top anytime soon.
Unless 343 start innovating for Halo 5 like Bungie did to get the crown in the first place, well then dont expect anything to change.
Everyone wants to be the next Cod, whereas once upon a time everyone wanted to be the next Halo.
In Halos prime you had the competition copying Halos features : 2 gun limit, recharging health, all the way through to Halo 2 matchmaking infrastructure, Halo 3s theatre etc.
Now you have Halo copying Cod features.
Halo had its time with the crown, and going the way its going it wont be back on top anytime soon.
Unless 343 start innovating for Halo 5 like Bungie did to get the crown in the first place, well then dont expect anything to change.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
The problem with Halo4 is that too many of the game-types play similarly and there aren't enough small & medium sized maps. Reach had a lot of big maps too and had the same fucking problem. Playing customs in Reach sucked when you were 2-3 people cause you spend too much time just looking for the other players in too many of the maps.
Halo needs more small maps than big maps. With 4, they focused too much on big team and not enough on the smaller sized games. And this is coming from an avid BTB player.
That, and bring back the attack and defend game-types like assault and one flag for Christ sakes. You do that, no one is complaining about the guns. Theres a use for a shotty, BR, AR in small maps. Not so in Big team, which is why everyone uses the DMR all the time. Map design.
Edit: If you design most maps big with open areas, people are gonna use the gun thats best for big maps and open areas. If you design a map where you know close quarter guns will be useful, youll use more close quarter guns. Its not rocket science.
I would say the majority of fps multiplayer gamers want something that is both rewarding and accessible. An arena style shooter can definitely fulfill those two requirements, but recent ones likes like ShootMania haven't.
See, this is, why it doesn't make sense for me...
Why does someone want to have CoD features, in a Halo game? (Not talking about features like Spectator mode). If you want to have killstreaks, perks, etc, then please go play CoD. Halo will most definetely not suit your playstyle. It really doesn't make sense to me, why someone who plays and likes CoD wants to play a CoD alike Halo.
Edit: We also don't know, how succesfull Halo would have been, if Reach wasn't Reach. Nobody can answer this. It could have been either worse or better, who knows.
The problem is, that developers are thinking, that nobody wants a competitve arena shooter, but how do they know, if they haven't tried? What if Halo 4 would have been more like Halo 3 or Halo 2? Would there be more players playing now?
I'm making the bold assumption and say yes, but really, we can't say that for sure...
Thats easy, to make the game more random, so they can depend on the Gimmicks of the game and have more chance against a player with skills.
Infinity is full of people that exploit these gimmicks, instead of relying on their weapons to get kills.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Because the majority arent as brand loyal as people like us on a Halo forum, they buy the popular games and enjoy them. Pretty simple really. They know Halo was big, pick up the new one, not cod enough for them and stop playing. Look at the pop. for proof.
Cod style is king right now.
Again, how do you know, that they were looking for CoD style and not for old school Halo? It's not like you asked them, right?
And you are getting your numbers from where? I mean the part where you assumed the majority of players that got Halo 4 are not hardcore halo fans?
Maybe the majority where halo fan and just Didn't like Halo 4, (like 90 percent of my Friend list) and moved on.
Genesis Knight
Member
So, I'm getting disconnected from Xbox Live every time I boot Halo 4? I can launch any other game and I'm fine. And once I'm at the main menu in Halo 4, if I try to connect to Xbox Live it says I need to test my connection.
East Coast GAF here. Anybody else hitting this?
East Coast GAF here. Anybody else hitting this?
I'm not dodging the question, your premise is dumb. I don't know what the aim assist cutoff is for the DMR. I don't know how it relates to the scope. I don't care because it's fine the way it is. Don't nerf the DMR if the other weapons aren't useful or can't keep up, axe the weapons that can't keep up with the DMR. Total balance isn't just overrated it's also impossible. There's this academic belief that even when a company like 343 adds 80 weapons to multiplayer, if you tweak the numbers enough everything will be better balanced. Ain't happening. You're asking a long range precision weapon to not perform well at long range. Make the maps better so people don't get hit with it out in the open and bring back the scope knockout. Don't reduce the aim assist. Don't make the BR universal. Precision is everything in life. If you're getting repeatedly crapped on by a DMR at long range, then fix matchmaking and trueskill first.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Look at the live rankings. Cod is number one, Halo isnt. Clearly Cod is more popular.
This doesn't answer our question...
Edit:
Sounds like you can't download the latest patch and therefore, you are getting disconnected. When have you played the last time and did you download the latest TU?
Latvian Hitman
Member
COD is king, no doubt. That doesn't mean that ripping off the COD style is going to get you anywhere.
Ten years from now, there will likely be a new gaming franchise in COD's place. My money says that, whatever that franchise is, it won't have gotten there by imitating COD.
Indiana GAF here, same thing. Looks like free Gold weekend FUBAR'd us?
What I want is for good players to be able to land 5 shots across the map and bad players to have difficulty in doing so. As of now, the skill gap for it is very small since there is so much aim assist.
If we were to reduce the aim assist range right now, only the unskilled players would be affected. If a player is skilled enough, reducing the aim assist range isn't going to do anything to hinder that player's ability to consistently nail shots cross-map. Why would you have a problem with that?
You talk as if I want to bring back the H3 BR spread.
"Make the maps better"? Did you seriously just say that? How often do we get good maps in Halo games?
And while I agree that better maps pretty much nullify this issue, it's a much more complicated fix and quite difficult to execute for our developers here. Aim assist reduction would literally take 1 minute to implement and it's impossible to fuck it up. And yes, the scope knockout would be nice.
Slapping a half-assed poorly thought out band-aid on much larger problems is why Halo has two feet in the grave. We don't need more.
Genesis Knight
Member
I played last week and got the map pack and associated TU, I thought.
Damn. Halo 4 doesn't even want what few players it has left playing it.
How do you figure that? How many people do you think are skilled enough to not be affected by a change in aim assist? Probably none. Everyone would have to adjust. Players at the highest level also feel the tiniest differences in control.
I don't agree with Kyle on much outside of adult stars but I agree completely about map design. You're resigning yourself in the first sentence to accept mediocre maps and go for another change that would be 'easier'.
Don't accept mediocrity, if, in your opinion, it's not up to par.
It's a nice infographic, but your initial survey was deeply flawed and extremely leading. Given the nature of your site I would suggest reading up on his to make good unbiased surveys/questionnaires.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
I agree and disagree with that statement and let me explain why. The big problem right now is there there's a shift in what the gamers find fun. Gamers now don't want the same things they wanted when Halo2 came out. The thing i tell my friends all the time about COD is this: if you take that ranking and unlock system out from COD, it becomes a very ordinary game. Those are the things that make that game popular. Its more of an addiction than anything else. You want to level up, unlock that scavenger perk, diamond camo, etc.. its addictive. You take those things out, the game-play is actually nothing special.
I can tell you for a fact that 2 out of 4 of my close friends stopped playing Halo and went to COD because that game allowed them to be "better" for less amount of effort. They can call in AI help in that game, it gets them some kills (not to mention one bullet to the head) and they end up being a lot more satisfied at the end of the night.
Thats what COD does well, its addictive in its raking system and its easier to be good at plain and simple.
The problem with that is that Halo would need to copy paste that formula and do it better for people to come to Halo. But then, it stops being Halo.
I think 343 (or MS) just need to accept the fact that the only way they will beat COD is by coping it and improving on that, or just accepting the fact that Halo doesnt have what the new gamers want, stay faithful to its roots and just concentrate on being that. But that wont make it number 1.
I want to create more of a skill gap with long-range DMR fights. What's wrong with that? A half-assed, poorly thought out band-aid would be to bring back Reach bloom to make long distance fights less effective. Wanting less aim assist is not even close to being anything like that. Didn't you say "Precision is everything in life"?
What I meant to say is that only they would be greatly affected. It would make far less of a difference with skilled players.
Isn't it a core principle in engineering that simple fixes are pretty much always better than complicated ones?
The DMR is very easy to use at long range -> reduce aim assist.
If there's a fallen tree on my road, I'm going to remove it. I'm not going to build a new road that goes around it.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Silly Mikey is saying pretty much the same thing I am.
The only thing I disagree with is saying can only be number 1 by copying Cod.
Halo can be number 1 if instead of playing catchup to the rest of the industry, 343 goes all out and innovates Halo with some new shooter ideas. Bungie did this from day 1, they made their own game. Not their version of what was popular at the time.
If 343 innovate and don't play it safe to satisfy Microsoft shareholders (Probably will never happen) then they can be number 1 again.
The sad thing is they have the potential. There's some very talented people at that studio and no one here can deny they have passion for the franchise. But with Microsoft wanting a guaranteed seller as opposed to taking a risk to get the top spot, its doubtful this will ever happen.
The only thing I disagree with is saying can only be number 1 by copying Cod.
Halo can be number 1 if instead of playing catchup to the rest of the industry, 343 goes all out and innovates Halo with some new shooter ideas. Bungie did this from day 1, they made their own game. Not their version of what was popular at the time.
If 343 innovate and don't play it safe to satisfy Microsoft shareholders (Probably will never happen) then they can be number 1 again.
The sad thing is they have the potential. There's some very talented people at that studio and no one here can deny they have passion for the franchise. But with Microsoft wanting a guaranteed seller as opposed to taking a risk to get the top spot, its doubtful this will ever happen.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
You see, i dont see how they could innovate and keep the Halo feel. Innovate means change. Halo and change dont mix if this forum is any indication. You cant have innovation without change and practically everything thats changed in Halo had been criticized in here.
? Higher aimer assist allows you to be more precise with a controller.
The problem with the DMR isn't that it's precise, it's that you can be precise with it consistently with ease. If you compare Halo 3 Valhalla matches to Halo 4 Ragnarok matches you see the difference straight away. Sure, people in Halo 3 could still ping each other from a distance, but you could never hit many consecutive hits. You could move around the sides of the maps while being relatively safe. The Bubble Shield spawn area was dangerous, but not so much that it discouraged movement too much. In Halo 4 movement is much more restricted. People hide behind cover and take shots at other people hiding behind cover a mile away instead of moving up and having battles at a more closer and interesting range. Long range isn't the range at which the most interesting battles play out. At long range battles are mostly about popping in and out of cover and mostly decided by who has the best position. Battles at extremely close range aren't exactly 'je van het' either, they usually end up in boring melee kills. The sweet spot for Halo combat is at medium range. That's the range at which movement, weapon use and skill come together the best.
I think saying that the developer needs to create maps that are designed around weapons with a range like the DMR is fair, but up to a certain point. A map like Valhalla worked in Halo 3, because of the spread of the BR and the netcode, for better or worse. Implementing the map in Halo 4 where you have a very precise weapon and a much improved netcode without making changes the map layout is asking for trouble. That said, I feel like designing your BTB maps around a weapon with which you can hit people at a long range consistently with ease will just limit you too much in creating your map. It's like designing maps around the Jetpack. Sure, you can try to take the Jetpack into account, but is it worth adjusting your map for it? I say no, it limits you so much that's you're better off just getting rid of the Jetpack itself. With designing maps around the current DMR you'd get maps that are extremely segmented and lose what made BTB maps good in the past. You'd lose more than you would gain.
All that doesn't mean I want spread or bloom back, though. God no, that shit can burn in hell. Inconsistent weapons in the past have been made that way purely for BTB and it has screwed over 4v4 gameplay every single time, that can't happen again. I think reducing the scope zoom, range it which auto-aim occurs (i.e. when the reticule turns red), and the range at which bullet magnetism kicks in would go a long way in reducing the DMRs issues. That way 4v4 gameplay will still have a consistent and precise weapon, while BTB doesn't have a weapon which limits movement around maps too much. I think reducing the scope zoom will have the biggest effect on the way the DMR impacts gameplay in BTB. You won't be nearly as accurate at long range with a 2x scope, but not because of some artificial mechanic.
Also, make the DMR a 4-shot.
I think saying that the developer needs to create maps that are designed around weapons with a range like the DMR is fair, but up to a certain point. A map like Valhalla worked in Halo 3, because of the spread of the BR and the netcode, for better or worse. Implementing the map in Halo 4 where you have a very precise weapon and a much improved netcode without making changes the map layout is asking for trouble. That said, I feel like designing your BTB maps around a weapon with which you can hit people at a long range consistently with ease will just limit you too much in creating your map. It's like designing maps around the Jetpack. Sure, you can try to take the Jetpack into account, but is it worth adjusting your map for it? I say no, it limits you so much that's you're better off just getting rid of the Jetpack itself. With designing maps around the current DMR you'd get maps that are extremely segmented and lose what made BTB maps good in the past. You'd lose more than you would gain.
All that doesn't mean I want spread or bloom back, though. God no, that shit can burn in hell. Inconsistent weapons in the past have been made that way purely for BTB and it has screwed over 4v4 gameplay every single time, that can't happen again. I think reducing the scope zoom, range it which auto-aim occurs (i.e. when the reticule turns red), and the range at which bullet magnetism kicks in would go a long way in reducing the DMRs issues. That way 4v4 gameplay will still have a consistent and precise weapon, while BTB doesn't have a weapon which limits movement around maps too much. I think reducing the scope zoom will have the biggest effect on the way the DMR impacts gameplay in BTB. You won't be nearly as accurate at long range with a 2x scope, but not because of some artificial mechanic.
Also, make the DMR a 4-shot.
I thought you meant you wanted to reward players who are actually precise with their thumbs compared to players who are consistently off by a bit. I also assumed you of all people would be for a more skillful game.
And thanks Overdoziz. That is exactly what I'm trying to tell these guys.
Duji don't. He spawn camps.
Lemme guess. MLG Reach Sanctuary on your host?
User 73706
Banned
Allow BR/Carbine/LR as loadout weapons.
Get rid of the DMR.
Buff the Pistol to be close to the DMR in power but the CE pistol in range and make it a common on-map pickup in locations such as bases.
Get rid of the DMR.
Buff the Pistol to be close to the DMR in power but the CE pistol in range and make it a common on-map pickup in locations such as bases.
Zealot gravity area Plasma pistols only
If it's so easy to hit people at distance with the DMR, why not clear people off who are pinging you? If someone has map control and is spawn trapping you (which is basically impossible in Halo 4), that's your fault. I'm not sure why people are arguing that the DMR is overpowered because it can hit you from far away, when they too have a DMR and can shoot people from far away. The one rewarding and fun weapon in the whole game is being used as a scapegoat for atrocious map design and half-assed design constructs on 343's part.
You're kind of stumbling over yourself here, to the point where I'm not sure what you're arguing. Yes on paper lowering aim assist makes for a more "precise" game, but it doesn't allow the player to be more precise.
Were you ever hit by a DMR while trying to ping him back? The flinch is horrible, the person who hits first will win most of the time ( at great distances)
Get room you two!
Whatever the solution is to weapon balance in Halo 4, it's not one simple fix. It's a combination of the things that everyone has mentioned. Maps is certainly a large part of it.
What always amazes me is that on StarCraft 2, years and years has gone into balancing these insane amount of factors and they done an absolutely stellar job. However, there are still maps at the Pro level that favor certain races.
It's obviously a very complicated issue. But I'll agree with Kyle in that instead of making things easier by limiting the amount of weapons in the game, 343 put a ton in and we're feeling the effects of inbalanced game.
The entire fucking point is that all players are just hiding behind rocks shooting at each other from across the map. All I want is for the range at which battle occur to be reduced in BTB without making it inconsistent and imprecise so 4v4 gameplay isn't negatively impacted.
"Someone else is using it, and you can too!" isn't great design.
Orochinagis
Member
Tried throwdown today,no random ordinances and balanced fights for the first time after horribles, horribles defeats. Some people were soooo dependable on the radar, I made some hilarious assassinations, so much fun.
It happens to me too when Its chargin the playlist.
It happens to me too when Its chargin the playlist.
No I'm not. I want to reward players who are precise and punish those who aren't. I want to do this by making the DMR rely more on skill when it comes to long range fights, thereby increasing the skill gap associated with it. You do not. What's not to understand?
Look at the DMR's red reticle range on Haven. You don't think there's a problem with that?
Exactly. I'm surprised kyle even used this argument.
The one rewarding and fun weapon in the whole game is being used as a scapegoat for atrocious map design and half-assed design constructs on 343's part.
So remove the DMR from the BTB playlist.
How to fix the DMR:
if it remains a loadout weapon:
-lower aim assist
-2 or 2.5x scope
-no bloom
-lock rate of fire
if it becomes a weapon drop
-keep 3x scope
-make rate of fire slightly faster than sniper rifle
-3 shot kill
-lowered aim assist
As is, it's completely overpowered.
if it remains a loadout weapon:
-lower aim assist
-2 or 2.5x scope
-no bloom
-lock rate of fire
if it becomes a weapon drop
-keep 3x scope
-make rate of fire slightly faster than sniper rifle
-3 shot kill
-lowered aim assist
As is, it's completely overpowered.
Do I think there's a problem with a weapon being able to hit people via all lines of sight on a competitive symmetrical map? Nope.
So your own argument is based on 343's half-assed design constructs that you are complaining about?
Then you're stuck with the shitty BR spread.
Precisely.
That's not what I asked you. I, too, have no problem with a weapon being able to hit people via all lines of sight on a competitive symmetrical map. I fucking hated Reach bloom and H3 BR spread.
My problem is that having such an incredible aim assist range lowers the skill gap and discourages movement.
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