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Halo |OT15| Beta-tested, GAF approved

Pop

Member
H4 just isn't what people want for a halo game.

The last two halo games have been hugely opposite of what made halo great. And randomness to the MAX, uneven starts etc...

We been over this already hundreds of times on GAF.

Edit: Obscured, H:CE-H3 were simple, evenly based matches. Skill Ranks(Yes they play a huge part in success) and social was split, easier for players to jump in and enjoy matches without randomness. I've always thought simple makes for greater material.
 

Tawpgun

Member
I never quite get the argument that if it wasn't available at launch then it doesn't matter and won't have any effect. It would seem that more hardcore players would also fall in a demographic that is more tied in to information sources where they might become aware of changes made that might interest them.

I asked this question before, but how do you turn the casual player (let's brainstorm some new more useful terms) into a core player? I like how League of Legends introduces a new player to basics, but also the community and BO2 did some of the same stuff.

You can either make a shallower game or create a deeper game that allows players to enter at a shallow level and get comfortable before venturing deeper. There were some elements to past Halos that did the later, but not to nearly the degree it needs to continue growing an audience.

They need to bring back a sort of "Team Training" or Beginners playlist. Maybe an online tutorial. SOMETHING.
 

Havok

Member
They need to bring back a sort of "Team Training" or Beginners playlist. Maybe an online tutorial. SOMETHING.
At this point there's no reason for Halo to not have a full tutorial section that explains each gametype, the basic mechanics, and whatever else. At this point, I have zero idea how a new player would know that plasma does more damage against shields and bullets do more damage against health. I have no idea how a new player would know that objective items are a one hit melee kill outside of trial and error. I have no idea how a player would know that the EMP function of the plasma pistol exists outside of getting hit with it or seeing someone else use it. Halo is really bad at explaining the nuances of its mechanics.

Even past that, Kevin Franklin explicitly mentions that Halo 3's Boot Camp playlist was a good idea:
I remember back in Halo 3, there (was) a somewhat successful experience where for your first ten games or so, you’d start out in Boot Camp, and it was always a free-for-all, always on one map. As a result, you didn’t have to worry about disappointing your teammates. You just got to go in and fire at the first thing that moved. It was a good entry point, although it had issues later on in the game where players were exploiting the game to get into that hopper so they could kill the newbies. But if you had six people who had never picked up a controller before, it was a good starting experience.

...but then Halo 4 doesn't have one.

Team Training needs to come back if only to be the one playlist that guests are forced to funnel into to stop ruining the experience in other playlists by going -30 in every game.
 

DeadNames

Banned
IMO infinity slayer is fine, most of the MP is fun, it's just certain things that make it suck (like the bolt shot, camo, shitty maps etc).

My other problem is I hardly have time for games anymore given my new career and still maintaining my weightlifting hobby. Gaming has dropped of DRASTICALLY.

that too.

halo 4s core gameplay™ is one of the best in the series, but AAs are what make the game frustrating.
 

TheOddOne

Member
Team Training needs to come back if only to be the one playlists that guests are forced to funnel into to stop ruining the experience in other playlists by going -30 in every game.
Halo 3's social and ranked sections just needs to come back as a whole. Even with the current Halo 4 playlist management, it's still just a mess as Reach and Halo 3's.
 
I never quite get the argument that if it wasn't available at launch then it doesn't matter and won't have any effect.
Console titles tend to be extremely top heavy. It's rare for a console game's multiplayer population to increase and not have it be a blip.
Exceptions I'd guess are major overhauls, changing to f2p, expansions or similar high marketing moments.

It's very different to something like LoL which started fairly quiet and grew.
 

Havok

Member
Halo 3's social and ranked sections just needs to come back as a whole. Even with the current Halo 4 playlist management, it's still just a mess as Reach and Halo 3's.
I mean, even that had its problems. It's a solid foundation when you use it well but I don't think I trust them to not make the Halo 3 mistake of mirroring most of the playlists across both sections, which ended up causing a bunch of those playlists to die off since something like, say, Team Objective can't support two playlists (hell, in Halo 4 it can't even support one when they botch the gametype selection).

I just really hate playing in matches with guests on my team, which is why I like the idea of having a solitary kiddie pool for them to play in without the rest of the population having to put up with their crap.
 

Duji

Member
I was at my friend's house the other day and he was watching Aziz Ansari do his stand up routine. I discovered that there's a good chance this Mr. Ansari guy is responsible for random weapon drops in Halo 4. Lo and behold.
 

TheOddOne

Member
I mean, even that had its problems. It's a solid foundation when you use it well but I don't think I trust them to not make the Halo 3 mistake of mirroring most of the playlists across both sections, which ended up causing a bunch of those playlists to die off since something like, say, Team Objective can't support two playlists (hell, in Halo 4 it can't even support one when they botch the gametype selection).

I just really hate playing in matches with guests on my team, which is why I like the idea of having a solitary kiddie pool for them to play in without the rest of the population having to put up with their crap.
Yeah, that is a huge factor too.

I wonder if the division idea, like from SCII would work with Halo. Everybody is still in the same playlist though, so no population drop off.
 
Team Training needs to come back if only to be the one playlist that guests are forced to funnel into to stop ruining the experience in other playlists by going -30 in every game.
I liked the new Gears Overrun demo, it prompted you to answer whether or not you were a veteran of the franchise and adjusted the tips and tricks accordingly. Something like that being tied to the in-game Team Training playlist seems like it would work well. Of course I'm completely ignorant of the technical hurdles that would take, but I think that is a far better solution to reaching out to new players than watering down the entire multiplayer to make it more palatable to newcomers.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
I was at my friend's house the other day and he was watching Aziz Ansari do his stand up routine. I discovered that there's a good chance this Mr. Ansari guy is responsible for random weapon drops in Halo 4. Lo and behold.

I saw this recently too and laughed my ass off at that part.

Also, just finished editing the interview. It came out to 50 minutes which is actually quite a bit longer than what was originally planned. Pretty awesome.
 

willow ve

Member
I never quite get the argument that if it wasn't available at launch then it doesn't matter and won't have any effect. It would seem that more hardcore players would also fall in a demographic that is more tied in to information sources where they might become aware of changes made that might interest them.

People don't routinely check back to games that are months old. Even the most vocal and most core group of gamers move on from a franchise when they can't find the elements that originally made them enjoy said franchise. Just look at the amount of former HaloGAF regulars that gave up, sold the game, etc. long before the title updates or team Throwdown were released.

You have a narrow window post launch to nail down that addictive formula. After that you're not going to ever earn back hundreds of thousands of players because you've already burned those bridges.
 

Booties

Banned
Guess. I need to start updating the OP for the next thread. Any exciting new features I can ask warher to brig to life for us?
 
ok, serious question. do you all really think halo 4's population numbers have anything to do with infinity, gameplay unlocks, spawning pp's, or no visible ranks?

Oh yes, absolutely, 100 percent, without question. The other day I was going to make a quick post: "Every time I hop on Halo 4, I'm repeatedly astonished at the continuing success of Infinity Big Team Slayer". Once I thought about it however, I realised that iBTB's success makes complete sense. Its continued success, population-wise, is the residual effect of Halo 4's launch physique.

There are vast, vast, numerous amounts of videogamers who enjoyed the original Halo trilogy. The PS2 dominated that console generation but had it not been for Halo CE's foundational pillar in the Xbox's lauch, and Xbox Live's perfect launch partner in Halo 2 then the Xbox would have gone the way of the Sega Saturn or Jaguar, forgotton and completely stomped into anonymity by the PS2. Halo 3's years at the top of the Live charts and respectable (for a years old game) subsequent tussle with COD releases bore out that there were still many, many gamers who enjoyed normal Halo gameplay.

Then Halo Reach happened and a lot of gamers who had nine years worth of gameplay muscle memory invested in Halo are thrown by having to stop shooting in the middle of a battle in order for their shots to be accurate. They have moments of dizzying frustration when a player they would have killed in a given situation in the previous three titles suddenly activates an invincibility button. They are killed by players who can suddenly fly over their heads from spawn and the game doesn't offer them a Y axis sensitivity to accomodate these new features. They enter Team Slayer, a safe bet of a playlist in the previous two titles and half of the maps are a turgid, mono-grey eyesore that are all visually alike and don't play particularly well. They go to BTB, a favourite for so many in H2 and H3 and there is not a single, non-forge map custom built for the mode, instead playing on built-for-an-entirely-different-mode horror shows like Spire and Boneyard. They actually get put into BTB SWAT on Boneyard, spawn Red stairs, and are repeatedly spawn killed in the open by a 3x zoom, single shot precision rifle.

These players think Halo Reach is not a very fun Halo game. They don't like the changes, they don't like the poor selection of maps, amongst other things. They look around for other places to put their gaming time; Black Op's releases on the back of three successful predecessors and, crucially, doesn't mess around with what made those games popular in the first place. It identify's a rivals strength of meta-features (Halo's theatre and social file sharing capabilities) and implements its own theatre which in many ways improves upon Halo's version and then offers players the social sharing side of it, not on a dev website or by jumping through hoops in game but through free rendered uploads to probably the most visited website on Earth in Youtube. Many of the gamers put off by Halo's strange new direction (no 1-50 wtf? Timing shots and no BR wtf? You can spawn with camo now wtf?) decide to go where a lot of their friends went, a safe, you know what you're getting deal in COD. Lots of them also get into Battlefield 3, a game that knows what it does best, very large scale military battles, is somewhat unique in the FPS landscape and sticks to it.

Fast forward to October 2012 and these players who loved the original trilogy but checked out with Reach, they see the Halo 4 PR train in full swing. "Oh hey, look, the Master Chief's back" they say. They remember paying the same price for ODST as they did for Halo 3 but ODST didn't have proper multiplayer nor the Chief. They remember paying full price the following year for Reach, which again didn't have the Chief, and being put off by the weird, unexpected things in the multiplayer. So they see the Chief and they associate him with the last game he was in, Halo 3, that game that they and their friends had lots of awesome times with. So they look forward to Halo 4's release because hey, Chief's back, so Halo will be normal again right?

This is where one goes back to the point about Halo 4's launch 'physique'. The launch state of a game is arguably its most important. It is where the vast majority of players who don't read forums and gaming press etc get their idea of a games identity and the game developers intent for the series. Many of those players that Reach lost are back for Halo 4 in launch week, eager to give the franchise another shot.

They load up the game and tentatively enter War Games ("I think this is the multi, guys"). The party lead and their buddies look for a playlist they remember loving, Team Slayer, but there is no sign of it. "Just pick the top one, come on party leader!". So they enter Infinity Slayer. They play five hypothetical games. The voting for these five games goes 'Adrift, Complex, Complex, Adrift, Abandon'. The maps quality don't seem very high and now it appears everyone has a power weapon at some point, and that guy they just killed pressed X to spawn without punishment and cleaned them up while they waited for their shields to recharge, completely unfairly. Weapons are confusingly spawning at random, with no explanation as to why that is happening (it didn't happen in the ten years they played Halo before). They play another bunch of Infinity Slayer and soon come to realise that there's only four 4v4 maps and two of them are objectively poor for Slayer. So they venture over to Infinity BTB and, while the gameplay problems remain from their 4v4 experience, at least there are more maps on offer.

So what happens to this hypothetical party of four a week after Halo 4's release? Three of them go to Black Op's 2 or back to Battlefield 3 (COD does weapon unlocks and instant respawn far better than Halo ever will and BF3 is built around large scale combat and, crucially, let's you drive a vehicle more than five meters without getting stunned by a spawn weapon). One stays (the opening populations were around 400, 000 and then dropped to a quarter of that). The one who stays motivation for doing so is as multitudinous as Halo's confused identities. It might be a love of heavy BTB gameplay, it might be because that player is one of those who is an absolute sucker for levelling systems no matter what the gameplay and wishes to reach SR 130. It might be that they fucking love the party gametype Regicide. But the question isn't why so few stayed it's why so many chose to leave...

Halo 4 sold so many copies because it it had an 11 year established base of users and previous customers right? For 9 of those years Halo was about equal starts, checks, balances and largely reasonable design. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that many of that established user base came to Halo 4 expecting a direct, regular Master Chief sequel to Halo 3, Reach being the equivalent of an experimental off-shoot branch, not the foundation for Halo 4. Those players came to Halo, experienced instant respawn, random weapon drops, camo sniping, camo boltshotting, their favourite Warthog being stunned every three seconds by an unlocked spawn weapon, no ranked/social choice and realised they had to play for hours in order to unlock a perk so they didn't frequently run out of ammo (weapons vanishing every 12 seconds as they do). They probably realised at that point that all these things that were making Halo not feel like the game they'd enjoyed for a decade were being done better in other games in which they made sense. And so, they went to those other games.

So, COD does unlock systems and fast, one shot kill, 60fps gameplay best. Battlefield 3 cornered the big battle market. What was always Halo's core strength? FOUR VERSUS FOUR, arena based slayer and objective gametypes. 343 launches with four smallish maps, and a shit load of BTB content. 6 of its subsequent 9 DLC maps are BTB. Halo no longer has a grip on thaepopular area of the 4v4 market. People who bought or rented Halo 4 to see if it was normal again have disappeared. They won't be back five months from launch when it's announced in a corner of an internet forum that Team Throwdown, a normal-ish Halo playlist is coming to Halo 4! After that opening week they've made their mind up and you've lost them forever. Well, at least until Halo 5 rolls around but even then they might not bother. See, next time, Halo won't have the 'Master Chief wasn't in those games so it doesn't count' excuse. Master Chief, along with the Halo name, is now tainted.
 
ok, serious question. do you all really think halo 4's population numbers have anything to do with infinity, gameplay unlocks, spawning pp's, or no visible ranks?

Yes, 343i tried to get the attention of other fanbase without considering the actual one. it worked but it wasnt enough to compete against the original fanbase game.

Why do you still play Infinity stuff? You have other options now.

I noticed team throwdown takes more time to finish than a "normal" match in Halo 4, maybe I should try the new legendary playlist or whatever is called.
 
Any exciting new features I can ask warher to brig to life for us?

TEjT7Vv.gif
 

Tawpgun

Member
I think Infinity Slayer and BTB Infinity draw in numbers because they take little effort to play.

Deadly Cyclone even mentions how he likes BTB in Halo 4. Not for its intense matches like BTB used to be, but for being able to just kill a lot of people easily.

I go into Infinity Slayer and BTB Infinity to do the same thing. Its just easier to zone out and be content.

The problem is, for them, its either Throwdown, which is too hyper competitive, or infinity slayer.

You go into Throwdown alone and get frustrated by the lack of communication from randoms. You go into Throwdown with a team and there's only so much high stress intense gameplay you can take before you want to just relax and dong.

I think Legendary Slayer could be an interesting playlist to throw into the mix up. They should keep it slayer to boost the population. They should also advertise it heavily. Hell, call it Team Slayer. That's what it is. It's going to be like regular Halo slayer without the Infinity shenanigans.
 

Pop

Member
I think Infinity Slayer and BTB Infinity draw in numbers because they take little effort to play.

Deadly Cyclone even mentions how he likes BTB in Halo 4. Not for its intense matches like BTB used to be, but for being able to just kill a lot of people easily.

I go into Infinity Slayer and BTB Infinity to do the same thing. Its just easier to zone out and be content.

The problem is, for them, its either Throwdown, which is too hyper competitive, or infinity slayer.

You go into Throwdown alone and get frustrated by the lack of communication from randoms. You go into Throwdown with a team and there's only so much high stress intense gameplay you can take before you want to just relax and dong.

I think Legendary Slayer could be an interesting playlist to throw into the mix up. They should keep it slayer to boost the population. They should also advertise it heavily. Hell, call it Team Slayer. That's what it is. It's going to be like regular Halo slayer without the Infinity shenanigans.

RIP in peace halo

Infinity anything is crap
 

Omni

Member
On the contrary, I don't think that those things did much to drive away people.

Believe it or not, people who care about classic Halo are still a rather small percentage of the total population. The two attempts at making classic or competitive playlists support this; their populations didn't even budge Infinty BTB/slayer from their top positions. You can argue that all the people left because there wasn't 1-50 or ranked playlists, but I'm more inclined to believe otherwise. I think the sudden decline in population is not just due to certain liberties taken by 343, but rather franchise fatigue. The series has been out for 10+ years, and as we've all said it in one way or another, at its core we're all still doing the same things that we were back in CE or Halo 2. How many games that age are still popular and haven't vastly reimagined themselves within the last 6 years?

Look at CoD. Before Modern Warfare, the game wasn't anything terribly special. Infinity Ward took the series back to the drawing board and changed quite a lot if my memory serves me correctly. Try making a modern warfare fanatic play one of the original CoD games and you'll see that they probably won't like it that much.

With Halo, we're stuck in a difficult situation. On one hand, you've got the "vocal minority" screaming at 343i for the changes that they make. On the other side however, as I've anecdotally noticed, more casual fans consider the game to be just another "Halo"... Which while a tad hypocritical - as they play CoD - makes sense as beneath the crap, it is. What we get from this rather fragile situation is a hybrid that doesn't really please anyone. There's enough change there to piss off long time fans, but not enough to keep new players interested. I'm almost certain that next gen CoD will be in a similar situation; sooner or later people are going to be looking for more than just the same old same old.

In my honest opinion, for better or worse, Halo needs to be taken back to the drawing board. It's time to scrap everything and make a modern science fiction shooter that works on next gen consoles. It's time for 343i to take the series in a new direction and stick with it. People will be pissed. People will probably leave. But it will also bring new people in. I just don't think that the majority of people are looking for another Halo 3 v2.0 or whatever.

But that's just mah opinion of course.

Plus it's 4am in the morning, so this could be just a random rant that doesn't make any sense at all.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Minecraft just got TU9.

Microsoft, I'd love to see you support your first party titles with as much TU-level sustain support as your licensed titles get. It's obvious you can pull it off when you want to.
 

CliQ

Member
Halo 4's gameplay is good at it's core. But for a lot of people shooters are just getting old. Plus right now PC gaming is making a big comeback. The games are cheaper, have better graphics, and usually free multiplayer. Not to mention better voice chat like mumble, skype, and ventrillo. Also, it's much easier to stream for average man.

Let's take Gears of War as an example. $60 for the game and I believe it only shipped with 4 maps to play multiplayer with. Then they shipped a free map and a couple new gametypes. Now there are two map packs coming out which I think are 5 maps each (10 total) for $20. Now that's 15 maps for $80 I'm not considering campaign and I don't know what you would put that value of it at but really that's quite a bit of money just to play a newer version of a game you've already been playing.

Now on the PC side lets look at CS:GO. A competitive shooter that's been remade several times. When it launched it was around $20. You get pretty much a rebuilt game with a more streamlined competitive experience.

Oh yeah you also have to pay $60 a year for xbl gold (unless you find a discount so let's say $40 a year) just to be able to play multiplayer.
 

Ghazi

Member
Minecraft just got TU9.

Microsoft, I'd love to see you support your first party titles with as much TU-level sustain support as your licensed titles get. It's obvious you can pull it off when you want to.
Sweet, I've been waiting for the opportunity to do end stuff in the Xbox version. Now me and my friends can kill the enderdragon!
 

Korosenai

Member
Just got on Halo 4 and noticed the Monthly challenge is still the same as yesterday (Kill 5000 players). So I guess it wasn't an April Fool's joke? I've been playing since the game came out and I only have 11,000 kills, no way in hell am I getting this.
 

Omni

Member
Just got on Halo 4 and noticed the Monthly challenge is still the same as yesterday (Kill 5000 players). So I guess it wasn't an April Fool's joke? I've been playing since the game came out and I only have 11,000 kills, no way in hell am I getting this.
Just play the game 3x as much as you usually do
 

willow ve

Member
Halo was best when it was a true arena shooter. That was what made it unique from all other popular games in the genre. Going toward COD with loadouts, etc, happened at the same time they took a serious hit in popularity. I'll admit there are other confounding factors, but you can't ignore that the more the series starts to align itself with emerging trends the more it has suffered in popularity.

As has been said before COD has their niche, BF3 has their niche, and Halo once had their own niche. Trying to grab at these other areas of expertise diluted the brand and alienated long time fans.
 
Reach being the equivalent of an experimental off-shoot branch, not the foundation for Halo 4.
There it is, the fundamental design flaw with Halo 4. Reach didn't do anything noteworthy that warranted it being the basis for the next evolutionary step in the franchise. Armor Abilities as a whole did more to frustrate players and stifle the gameplay rather than innovate and push the multiplayer to new standards. Loadouts completely undermine the basic tenet of Halo multiplayer: everyone starts out equal and battles for the upgrades on the field. Reach failed to make even one solid map that I would like to see remade in this or future games, so the decision to move forward from that relative trainwreck of a game really showcases how diametrically opposed I am to Halo 4 basic design philosophy.


...and yet I still play. It's my own fault, really.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Hey Squidhands, did you by chance make a map on MuderMiners or know a guy called Solo XIII?

Because Im playing a map in the new update that has your name on it.....
 
Halo was best when it was a true arena shooter. That was what made it unique from all other popular games in the genre. Going toward COD with loadouts, etc, happened at the same time they took a serious hit in popularity. I'll admit there are other confounding factors, but you can't ignore that the more the series starts to align itself with emerging trends the more it has suffered in popularity.

As has been said before COD has their niche, BF3 has their niche, and Halo once had their own niche. Trying to grab at these other areas of expertise diluted the brand and alienated long time fans.

When it was "at its best" arena shooters were the popular sub-genre under the FPS sub-genre. It wasn't until MW1 came along that things started to shift.
 

willow ve

Member
When it was "at its best" arena shooters were the popular sub-genre under the FPS sub-genre. It wasn't until MW1 came along that things started to shift.
Correct, and Halo 3 outlasted both MW1 and MW2 before Reach fundamentally changed the foundational gameplay mechanics. That marked a clear turning point in the franchise where Halo became an "also ran" to the COD games and not a true and differentiated competitor.
 
Hey, not my fault I like to flaunt my body.

Touch me, Squid.
no

Hey. Hi.

Why not stop playing it?
I don't know. I like sci-fi and I like shooting things. Plus I have medical bills to pay off so I can't buy Bioshock yet.

Hey Squidhands, did you by chance make a map on MuderMiners or know a guy called Solo XIII?

Because Im playing a map in the new update that has your name on it.....
I do know Solo. Great forger; he did a remake of a Halo 3 map I made a while back for Reach, so that may be it. What's it called? I may have to get this game at some point.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
RIP in peace halo

Infinity anything is crap

Wrong. Making base Halo be based on Infinity was the bad idea. Infinity is a fun subset of gametypes, it just needs to be like Fiesta. Something fun you play when you get done with the default team slayer matches.
 

Pop

Member
Correct, and Halo 3 outlasted both MW1 and MW2 before Reach fundamentally changed the foundational gameplay mechanics. That marked a clear turning point in the franchise where Halo became an "also ran" to the COD games and not a true and differentiated competitor.

Yup

Wrong. Making base Halo be based on Infinity was the bad idea. Infinity is a fun subset of gametypes, it just needs to be like Fiesta. Something fun you play when you get done with the default team slayer matches.

Ya something like social, it would work then.
 
Its because most of the maps are BTB maps, so thats the only suitable playlist at the moment. So BTB goes to the top and 4v4 players play other games. Thats where the population is, playing CoD's and Diablo's and Starcraft's and Sim City's and League of Legends, and WoW's. Games that have added options and not deleted them.

Your game is embarassing, fix it. Thanks for reading. Frankie PM me.
 
Focus groups would find your scifi weapons too scifi and they'd get cut. Just reskin old human and covie weapons and you'll make the cut.

Dude.

Combiner is a reskinned Shotgun/Needler.

Phase Rifle is a reskinned DMR-Beam Rifle baby.

Phasebuster is a reskinned Grenade Launcher/Sticky Detonator.

Phase Grenade is a reskinned Firebomb/Spike Grenade.

Crossbolt is a reskinned bow and arrow.

Hell, if you want to get technical, even the Gravity Gauntlet is just a reskinned Ender Pearl that can stun people.

I BEAT THE FOCUS GROUPS AT THEIR OWN GAME
 
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