Support NeoGAF

[Tunavi]

SMH

You knock out your own radar and you're not totally invisible. It's not Halo 1-3 invisibility. Not to mention it was nerfed with the update.

You can just crouch until you see enemies coming around the corner on your radar. Turn it on, and now you know exactly where they are, they don't know where you are. That first shot off by the invisible player (while the other is scanning everywhere for any sign of the player in camo) can be a HUGE advantage during an encounter.
Not to mention on small maps with multiple levels like countdown and reflection, it can block out your entire enemy team's radar, while your own team knows exactly where everyone is (when it works)
And it was barely nerfed with the TU, it still lasts a damn long time if you camp. (who uses camo without camping?)

I really don't see the need for a SMH post

 

[Tawpgun]

While also knocking out your teammates' radars half the time. That they haven't fixed that incredibly annoying bug after a year and a half is shameful and that alone should put it on the chopping block.

Either fix the bug, or remove it across the board. Except maybe in Invasion or some shit.

Bungie took out the Radar Jammer and Flare because they had bugs which could be abused. I see no reason not to do the same with camo.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I really don't see the need for a SMH post

Your critique on Reach's design is mostly made of items you dislike, but you group it all under the banner of "balance issues". Arguing why the banshee is overpowered is identifying a balance issue. The AAs aren't meant to balance against base traits. That's kind of the point.

It's funny you don't mention grenades because they were probably the design element most affected by the inclusion of AAs.

 

[Kuroyume]

Take radar out of Halo.

Agreed.

You can just crouch until you see enemies coming around the corner on your radar. Turn it on, and now you know exactly where they are, they don't know where you are. That first shot off by the invisible player (while the other is scanning everywhere for any sign of the player in camo) can be a HUGE advantage during an encounter.
Not to mention on small maps with multiple levels like countdown and reflection, it can block out your entire enemy team's radar, while your own team knows exactly where everyone is (when it works)
And it was barely nerfed with the TU, it still lasts a damn long time if you camp. (who uses camo without camping?)

I really don't see the need for a SMH post

Try that sometime. Camping in one spot in this game. Then watch yourself lose because the battle shifts to another side of the map and everyone continues to go there and you go several long stretches without killing anyone. Just waiting for someone to pop up. I'm not going to argue that camo isn't deadly with the sniper on a wide open map like Hemmorhage, but I wouldn't called it unbalanced. It's the one armor ability that Bungie clearly went out of the way to balance. I've posted a list in here before of several drawbacks for camo users. It has the most drawbacks of any ability.

As for the radar comment... I'm aware it can knock out your own team's radar but you're telling me it can sometimes knock out the enemy's radar and not your team's radar at the same time? That's the first I've heard of it.

Camping is the point of cammo. If you move you're not invisible. Why the hell would you use it then if not to take adavantage of the one thing it offers? If I'm not sniping on Hemmorhage or Tempest then I use it to buy myself a second after taking damage, but like I said before you're not going to be of any help to the team just planting yourself in one spot.

 

[The Real Napsta]

Your critique on Reach's design is mostly made of items you dislike, but you group it all under the banner of "balance issues". Arguing why the banshee is overpowered is identifying a balance issue. The AAs aren't meant to balance against base traits. That's kind of the point.

It's funny you don't mention grenades because they were probably the design element most affected by the inclusion of AAs.

No, he's right.

 

[Tawpgun]

Your critique on Reach's design is mostly made of items you dislike, but you group it all under the banner of "balance issues". Arguing why the banshee is overpowered is identifying a balance issue. The AAs aren't meant to balance against base traits. That's kind of the point.

It's funny you don't mention grenades because they were probably the design element most affected by the inclusion of AAs.

At this point grenades are a given issue. Too many massive posts have been fired on the issue.

And what to you mean balance against base traits?

Because AA's influenced the base speed, jump height, and things like fall damage/stun.

 

[Havok]

As for the radar comment... I'm aware it can knock out your own team's radar but you're telling me it can sometimes knock out the enemy's radar and not your team's radar at the same time? That's the first I've heard of it..

That's its intended behavior, no collateral damage. It was supposed to be fixed after the beta, and supposedly was, but pops back up with alarming frequency.

Re: base traits being balanced by armor abilities; What was Halo 3's excuse for its painfully slow run speed, then? I tend to think that a slower game is just something that was always going to happen. Fall damage and jump height, sure, but movement speed was spiraling down already.

 

[HiredN00bs]

No, he's right.

Exposition is a crutch for people who are just right.

 

[Homeboyd]

You're all beautiful. Sexy and beautiful.



Yea, you too.


*pounce*

 

[Tunavi]

Your critique on Reach's design is mostly made of items you dislike, but you group it all under the banner of "balance issues". Arguing why the banshee is overpowered is identifying a balance issue. The AAs aren't meant to balance against base traits.

Wait, so if you agree with my issues, its a balance issue. If you don't agree with it, its my "bannered opinion?" Oh, the irony. All balance "issues" voiced by the community are opinions.
(also I did mention grenades)
And base traits are toned down from previous games because of the addition of AA's. There's no argument there.

Camping is the point of cammo. If you move you're not invisible.

Oh, you promote camping.

 

[kylej]

Purely speculation, Sundance tweeted:

"As one door closes another opens. I have no official comment but I wish everyone the best. Lean and mean in 2012. It's time to focus.

yeah Halo's probably gone or drastically scaled back. Shit bums me out big time.

 

[Devolution]

Did anyone pop into my party chat last night? >_>

 

[HiredN00bs]

And what to you mean balance against base traits?

Because AA's influenced the base speed, jump height, and things like fall damage/stun.

I don't agree. Grenades were clearly given a damage and radius boost because of the abilities that provide enhanced movement. I doubt the base movement and jump were as affected, if at all. How does sprint require slow movement? Or jet pack require low jumps? These qualities are more tied to the map design and to the weapon functionality. But since these are also built around AAs, I suppose they do less directly have an effect.

The take-away is that the game is a complex web of mechanics which depend on each other. Reach is balanced, for the most part, (with a few glaring issues) but saying that AAs are the problem in Reach is like saying that I don't like your finished and structurally sound house of cards and the 4s are the problem.

That's not to say that AAs are worth their inclusion in Halo games, though...

 

[Tunavi]

Did anyone pop into my party chat last night? >_>

hahahahahaha

 

[Trey]

Take radar out of Halo.

Do it yourself.

 

[Homeboyd]

Starting a party chat....

Topic: Donging

 

[Devolution]

hahahahahaha

BREAKING NEWS: just walked in on Devo and Timedog having drunk headset sex. It was easily the quickest I've ever left a party. :lol

There was no headset sex. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[HiredN00bs]

There's no argument there.

smh

A balance issue can be analyzed objectively when our goals are clearly defined.

And I'm shaking my head because you're making very broad statements and then following them with the above quote.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

yeah Halo's probably gone or drastically scaled back. Shit bums me out big time.

Well even if the MLG financers decide to cut back 2012, 2013 will hopefully be the year of Halo 4, Halo 4 deserves to be treated as a whole new ballgame.

 

[erpg]

No Halo MLG, no phone sex. Disappointment after disappointment in here.

 

[Hydranockz]

No Halo MLG, no phone sex. Disappointment after disappointment in here.

We can change one of those right now...

 

[Tunavi]

We can change one of those right now...

dibs on heckfu

 

[erpg]

That's what I'm lookin' for! You know just what to say to a man. Let me get my voice morph.

 

[Ramirez]

yeah Halo's probably gone or drastically scaled back. Shit bums me out big time.

What a swan song Reach was!

 

[Trey]

Reach has bad gameplay elements countering OTHER bad gameplay elements

3x scope on the DMR is too powerful, so they countered it with bloom. The DMR is super OP at any distance, but its also super random during DMR battles (because of bloom combined with even the smallest amounts of lag). The only way to survive is to camp. Go out into the open and you'll get pinged by DMR fire from any direction.
The Banshee is SUPER Overpowered, so they made it extremely vulnerable to DMRs, and made it flip as much as possible to avoid DMR fire. Now we have a glass cannon flying all over the place that can't be destroyed by a team without communication (most matchmaking games)

There are quite a substantial amount of counter measures against the Banshee in most of the gametypes it arrives in. As for the actual vehicle, how is speedy but vurnerable in any way overpowered? On wide open maps, it's a terror, of course, but outside of that, it changes the dynamic of the battle in a way not too different from the sniper rifle: stay your ass out of the open unless you have heavy equipment.

Your hyperbole regarding everthing is to just call it "super OP." The DMR is as prevalent in the sandbox as the 3sk pistol and the BR from the good ol days. As with anything with range, you don't want to get caught out in the open against it, and the (now) 4sk still leaves some time to retaliate if you are caught unaware. Halo always worked that way; why would you ever go out in the open naked (no vehicle, no weapon that outranges the opposition) in slayer? Your first argument describes every single Halo to the point that it condenses down to the bloom being a counter for the DMR being capable at range.

AAs are a whole different discussion. I'm not even sure where I stand on them, myself.

 

[Timedog]

BREAKING NEWS: just walked in on Devo and Timedog having drunk headset sex. It was easily the quickest I've ever left a party. :lol

 

[kylej]

What a swan song Reach was!

Love,
Bungie.

 

[The Henery]

Camping is the point of cammo. If you move you're not invisible. Why the hell would you use it then if not to take adavantage of the one thing it offers? If I'm not sniping on Hemmorhage or Tempest then I use it to buy myself a second after taking damage, but like I said before you're not going to be of any help to the team just planting yourself in one spot.

Which is why it's one of the more insipid and cheap of the aa's.

Halo 1-3 camo was a wonderful powerup to be fought over, one which didn't require you to crouch in a corner to use. I played you the other day and I killed you frequently without reply. Then you switched to camo and got a cheap kill on me whilst invisible (at the press of a button). It's cheap, bloodless, unfun and devolves into playing against the aa, scanning walls for an outline, instead of playing Halo. I'm suprised you defend it when you're so intolerent of the other bullshit in Halo 3 and Reach.

For Banshee defenders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IxYKNQgeGAw#t=166s

 

[heckfu]

dibs on heckfu

No refunds.

 

[Tunavi]

I'm suprised you defend it when you're so intolerent of the other bullshit in Halo 3 and Reach.

yeah honestly this surprised me as well

 

[Domino Theory]

Dayum. Hadn't heard this interview he did back in early Decemeber about the state of the Professional Halo Community.

Very frank. And he called out the stupid stylish comment that irked me and Zeouterlimits. So a cool guy (that I wasn't aware of previously).

Wow, Sundance nailed it, but it's pretty depressing to see Halo getting side-stepped like that. Never thought this day would come. I remember the days when Halo 2 and Halo 3 were such huge deals in MLG.

Damn.

 

[Kuroyume]

Which is why it's one of the more insipid and cheap of the aa's.

Halo 1-3 camo was a wonderful powerup to be fought over, one which didn't require you to crouch in a corner to use. I played you the other day and I killed you frequently without reply. Then you switched to camo and got a cheap kill on me whilst invisible (at the press of a button). It's cheap, bloodless, unfun and devolves into playing against the aa, scanning walls for an outline, instead of playing Halo. I'm suprised you defend it when you're so intolerent of the other bullshit in Halo 3 and Reach.

For Banshee defenders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IxYKNQgeGAw#t=166s

What are you talking about?

First off, not using this as an excuse to suggest I'm good or anything (because I know I suck) but that was a game of Headhunter playing alongside a bunch of randoms against 9 other people. There was no strategy to that whatsoever. I tried using jetpack to get on top of the mid structure on Powerhouse so I could peek and pop some shots at people but you (and your team) were wise to that so I went to camo. That's the only gametype (on that specific map) where I use anything but camo. I wasn't trying to go out of my way to kill you. I was shooting at everyone I saw, trying to get ANY kills. It was just bullets going all over the place.

I'm not defending camo in relation to classic Halo gameplay. I want H4 to be classic. Hell, if 343 said there were going to do a new TU that got rid of Reach's gameplay and made it all classic I'd be for it. When I defend camo I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm simply saying that compared to the other abilities I think it get's a bad rap because unlike these other abilities it has drawbacks.

Here was my argument regarding camo form a while back: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32810263&postcount=6721

 

[Falagard]

Reach has bad gameplay elements countering OTHER bad gameplay elements

3x scope on the DMR is too powerful, so they countered it with bloom. The DMR is super OP at any distance, but its also super random during DMR battles (because of bloom combined with even the smallest amounts of lag). The only way to survive is to camp. Go out into the open and you'll get pinged by DMR fire from any direction.
The Banshee is SUPER Overpowered, so they made it extremely vulnerable to DMRs, and made it flip as much as possible to avoid DMR fire. Now we have a glass cannon flying all over the place that can't be destroyed by a team without communication (most matchmaking games)
Sprint is countered by a slow base movement speed (you walk like a turtle). Sprint allows people to run away from their battles.
Jetpack is countered by low jump height (spoiler alert: you can't jump anywhere without sprint). Jetpack totally ruins map-flow and breaks the sandbox (there's no argument here)
Grenades and Rockets are Overpowered, and because we can't move and jump at our base movements, they are almost unavoidable.
There is no counter to armor lock. Simply waiting for them to come out is not an option if their teammates are fighting you.
Active Camo is super unbalanced. You knock out the enemy radar AND you're invisible? That doesn't even make sense.
Loadouts ruin everything that made Halo what it is. Halo used to be about spawning on the same foot and competing for the weapons/powerups on the map, now its simply given to you and everyone can start the game differently. If you beat a guy using an armor ability, he should not spawn again with the ability. Thats like killing a guy with rockets, and he just spawns with rockets again.

Forge is great for customs, but seeing FW in matchmaking makes my eyes, heart, and head hurt.

I agree with most of this, and have posted the same myself.

I believe that some high level game design decisions were made (let's put in Sprint, Jetpack and Armor Lock!) which cascaded into requiring other design decisions to try to balance the game or make the game "more fun" but resulted in a muddy mess.

 

[Tashi]

http://twitch.tv/tashiii

Feelin good, pwnin noobs

 

[PNut]

Idea for Rocket Race that doesn't suck: Mongooses, and the guy on the back has a grenade launcher only.

For Reach this would be a lot better than Rocket Hog Race. Too bad Hemorrhage is the only halfway decent vehicle oriented stock map though. So it really doesn't matter. Not to mention the weird vehicle physics in Reach....DMR's spinning Warthogs across the map, mongooses merging into the ground and that floaty feeling. I could go on and on.

My ideas to make Rocket Race/vehicle gameplay fun in Halo 4:
-Make the vehicles more like the Halo 3 vehicles
-Make good maps for vehicles (Standoff and Valhalla come to mind)
-Fix vehicle physics
-Bring back VIP and the 5 second rule for being off your mongoose
-The option for complete player invulnerability like in Reach (but the ability to DBA someone from the back of the mongoose. Like this.)
-Being able to boost the mongoose across maps
-Destination indicator on radar for Rocket Race

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Halo is going to get the Gears treatment and be a side show?

 

[kylej]

Wow, Sundance nailed it, but it's pretty depressing to see Halo getting side-stepped like that. Never thought this day would come. I remember the days when Halo 2 and Halo 3 were such huge deals in MLG.

Damn.

Half-assed game by a lazy developer that peaked a half-decade ago. Such a shame that Reach is what they're most proud of.

Looking forward to their upcoming three hour long grey block MMO.

Did Anniversary even chart in the XBL Top 20 activity upon its release? "Save us, Frankie" has never been more appropriate when it comes to the Halo franchise.

 

[Tashi]

Halo is going to get the Gears treatment and be a side show?

Already is. SC2 is main draw at the moment.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Already is. SC2 is main draw at the moment.

Holy shit.

 

[thezerofire]

Actually it looks like either Gears or MW3 will be replacing Halo entirely

 

[Havok]

Did Anniversary even chart in the XBL Top 20 activity upon its release? "Save us, Frankie" has never been more appropriate when it comes to the Halo franchise.

It charted at number 13 the week of the 21st. Apparently it sold well enough, but not as much as I'd like.

 

[Tashi]

Wait, MS want CoD to be played on 360 rather than Halo? That's what it sounds like in the Sundance Interview.

 

[vhfive]

Wait, MS want CoD to be played on 360 rather than Halo? That's what it sounds like in the Sundance Interview.

wtf
cod had less people watching than halo at providence

 

[Butane123]

So, since I've been out of the Halo loop for a few months... how's the multiplayer doing with the CEA maps?

Probably will be picking it up in a week or so.

 

[thezerofire]

Wait, MS want CoD to be played on 360 rather than Halo? That's what it sounds like in the Sundance Interview.

Or Gears. I hope it's Gears, because CoD is a snooze to watch. But it's probably CoD.

 

[Domino Theory]

For Reach this would be a lot better than Rocket Hog Race. Too bad Hemorrhage is the only halfway decent vehicle oriented stock map though. So it really doesn't matter. Not to mention the weird vehicle physics in Reach....DMR's spinning Warthogs across the map, mongooses merging into the ground and that floaty feeling. I could go on and on.

My ideas to make Rocket Race/vehicle gameplay fun in Halo 4:
-Make the vehicles more like the Halo 3 vehicles
-Make good maps for vehicles (Standoff and Valhalla come to mind)
-Fix vehicle physics
-Bring back VIP and the 5 second rule for being off your mongoose
-The option for complete player invulnerability like in Reach (but the ability to DBA someone from the back of the mongoose. Like this.)
-Being able to boost the mongoose across maps
-Destination indicator on radar for Rocket Race

This is not a knock towards you in any way, but no. Rocket Race, Infection, Grifball, and other miscellanious gametypes should not be on 343's mind for Halo 4. All they should focus on for those gametypes is to provide the necessary tools for each gametypes' respective community to create an 'updated' version of them within Halo 4 accordingly.

343 needs to focus on what made Halo such a huge success in the first place. Period.

 

[Nutter]

Wait, MS want CoD to be played on 360 rather than Halo? That's what it sounds like in the Sundance Interview.

That doesnt surprise me.

Why continue to support Reach, when you are about to start a new era of halo in less than 11 months

 

[kylej]

wtf
cod had less people watching than halo at providence

But COD has more people playing it. Establish yourself as the predominant platform for the biggest game franchise in the world (as they have with time-release DLC)... rake in even more cash. Let Reach die this year and hope for the best with Halo 4.

 

[Tawpgun]

That doesnt surprise me.

Why continue to support Reach, when you are about to start a new era of halo in less than 11 months

AND WE HAVE NO GAMEPLAY YET

 

[Hydranockz]

I like loudouts and what they do to gameplay. I don't necessarily see why people don't like them for some of the reasons stated above.

I mean, what is the difference between:
Player A picking Armour Lock and beating player B who had Sprint.
and
Player A picking up Rockets and beating player B who had picked up Sniper.

There are so many differenes in fact If you take my example, in the second scenario, an 'equal' battle would have been where both players ran for Rockets. Similarly, in the first one, an 'equal' battle happens when two players end up with the same AA.

I've seen the rock/paper/scissors analogy used quite a bit against AAs but I can't understand how it really holds any truth to Reach. Any player with one AA can beat a player with any other AA. There is no AA which is inherently better than another with strong weaknesses to another.

There aren't even any offensive AAs. Not a single AA will deal damage to a player (with the exception of AL) and that is more of a offensive defence AA.

To tie that in with the earlier analogy, why did the player with Rockets beat the player with the Sniper? Well it certainly wasn't because one is inherently better than the other

Of course there will be situations where a camo dude has a sniper or an evade guy has got sword, but the gripes I have heard are that things are unfair at spawn. I simply do not agree. I think players manage their 'goals' better than others and utilise AAs as a means of achieving them.

Consider the opening 15 seconds of any game where most power weapons will be rushed for. Do you honestly complain when someone picks an AA that allows them to get to the weapons faster than you even though you picked Hologram or the wrong movement AA (jetpack instead of sprint)? I wouldn't.
I see AAs as a means of obtaining these goals. A player on Powerhouse using jetpack is a player that has decided not to rush for rockets. That sort of thinking lends itself to a 'smarter' game and one that shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

That's just my view though. I think certain maps tend to favour certain AAs over others which isn't even necessarily a bad thing