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[Tenacious-V]

:lol

The only reality is that BRD is a higher capacity format which means more space for media and more options for people who use optical storage devices to backup their computer's files. You'd have to be a retard to want the inferior format to win out.

Oh that's the only thing you guys are taking into account. BD capacity AM BIGGAR, BD BETTAR. Yet you disregard anything/everything said PRO wise for HD-DVD. Any other factors ASIDE from capacity. Hybrid discs, Chinas backing, MS/Intel, Consumers wanting of backups/ability to copy their discs if they want, manufacturing costs, cheaper prices and so forth.

Oh yeah but BD AM hold more, it's the bestest.

 

[empanada]

:lol

The only reality is that BRD is a higher capacity format which means more space for media and more options for people who use optical storage devices to backup their computer's files. You'd have to be a retard to want the inferior format to win out.

If that was the case, why not skip this silly format war and support the one true next gen format HVD.

 

[Mooreberg]

Yup, it's the best thing for people who want a high-capacity storage medium. If you're more concerned with buying bootleg copies of stuff from the chinese guy on the street corner or how much money some billion dollar company is saving, than keep cheering for an inferior product.

 

[Mooreberg]

If that was the case, why not skip this silly format war and support the one true next gen format HVD.

That would probably be the best idea but is it even going to be ready for consumers this decade?

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

If that was the case, why not skip this silly format war and support the one true next gen format HVD.

Because these formats are coming next year and HVD is something coming like next decade. People speak of vaporware, but yeesh! Besides it's not like Sony and the like aren't looking into HVD tech.

 

[rastex]

:lol

The only reality is that BRD is a higher capacity format which means more space for media and more options for people who use optical storage devices to backup their computer's files. You'd have to be a retard to want the inferior format to win out.

Inferiority isn't so black and white either, as it seems that right now in what's out there BR is better (HD isn't even in the market yet), but for dual-layer, HD-DVD seems to be closer to market.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Yup, it's the best thing for people who want a high-capacity storage medium. If you're more concerned with buying bootleg copies of stuff from the chinese guy on the street corner or how much money some billion dollar company is saving, than keep cheering for an inferior product.

Oh way to be so narrow minded. As stated above if capacity was the deciding factor HVD with it's 200GB per layer would assrape both these formats. But I guess nothing else is important only the fact that BD has 25GB layers as opposed to 15GB. Yup, game set match, all is over nothing else in the entire world matters in this war.

You don't take into account other aspects that affect these two, there are 2nd 3rd 4th 5th+ factors that interfere in a war.

That's just like me saying oh we'll win a war cause we have better guns. Not taking into account, army size, skill, training, pressure points, alliances, and countless other factors. But oh yeah BD holds more so it's teh winnar.

 

[Mooreberg]

As stated above if capacity was the deciding factor HVD with it's 200GB per layer would assrape both these formats.

And is it coming out this decade? People who support blu-ray are talking about the next few years, not some undetermined point in the future.

 

[empanada]

That would probably be the best idea but is it even going to be ready for consumers this decade?

From http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12090

A HVD has the same diameter of a DVD, but its data is stored as holographic patterns. By using holographic patterns, this allows the disc to store up to 1TB (1,000GB) of data. Optoware aims to have its first generation 200GB HVD's finished and ready to go on sale from June 2006 and also expects to have a 100GB read-only HVD version along with HVD players on the consumer market in 2007.

So its not that much further off.

 

[Mooreberg]

And computer world magazine says sony is looking at it to replace BRD, which means I doubt we could expect a consumer-priced version within the next few years. Sounds good for enterprise-level data backup though.

 

[maharg]

And is it coming out this decade? People who support blu-ray are talking about the next few years, not some undetermined point in the future.

And the thing people who don't want either format are talking about is avoiding an incremental improvement every few years. I don't want to have to upgrade my player(s) until there is a significant improvement, on the order of that of VHS to DVD. And the shift from VHS to DVD was more than just a shift in image quality.

 

[empanada]

And the thing people who don't want either format are talking about is avoiding an incremental improvement every few years. I don't want to have to upgrade my player(s) until there is a significant improvement, on the order of that of VHS to DVD. And the shift from VHS to DVD was more than just a shift in image quality.

This is why I'm for HVD. Since Sony is including Blu-ray with PS3, its bound for some form of success, although I can't help but think its just a stop gap solution.

 

[Tenacious-V]

This is why I'm for HVD. Since Sony is including Blu-ray with PS3, its bound for some form of success, although I can't help but think its just a stop gap solution.

Yeah I agree. I've been saying that I wanted both of these stop gaps formats to die and for HVD to be the true next gen format for a long time. But I doubt it'll happen...

 

[DarienA]

How can consumer players for HVD be out in 2007... I never see any articles on it, no studio mentioning it, etc..... That is to say I'm familiar with the format, familiar with the articles on its timetable... but when do they plan on getting support from the market for it?

 

[Ponn]

You want me to restate then fine. I'll quote what I said before.





I could do that, but I don't think I need to... Most everyone here is backing BD with a passion anyway. You can see from this thread they already assume victory and put HD-DVD as DOA without any true reasoning/rationality. I only stated what I did for HD-DVD cause all I saw was a hardcore 1 sided following, and I wanted to at least show that HD-DVD isn't just a POS. But look at what happened just from when I posted this last time to now, it went right back to BD AM WINNAR anyway......

I think people are overlooking/underestimating a few points here. MS/Intel wouldn't just go with HD-DVD to spite Sony and PS3, that's the dumbest reason/rationale anyone could possibly make, it may have a slight slight impact, but not a defining reason to back/reject a format designed to replace dvd for the foreseeable future. If you look at things from an unbiased perspective, you'd see why both MS and Intel (both behemoths of companies) chose this route.

Well since you are already starting off in a bit of a biased tone...but whatever let's continue.

The ability to legally make copies of content you've purchased. This is one of the biggest reasons here. Consumers have the right to duplicate content if they own the material. HD-DVD allows this, BD is still uncommitted. That's a huge factor, you should be able to do what you wish with content you own. Just because of piracy issues, BD does NOT have the right to just prevent the consumer from doing this. MS knows it, Intel needs it, HD-DVD provides it. BD should look at what the consumer who is actually purchasing the material wants, not what Hollywood and the Industry dictates to them. This is an important factor I think people are underestimating.

This is the BIGGEST reason movie companies are wanting to support BRD. Solid information on BD recording is still aways off and anything you are saying at this point is speculation. Who gives a shit what pirates think and they are not a huge market. If you owned a movie company and wanted to avoid how mainstream and out of control piracy is getting you would be throwing your support behind the format that tries to answer these problems. First and foremost comes the movie companies. Consumers are really just now even starting on DVD recorders so it would be a ways off before HD-DVD or BRD recorders are even targeted by your normal consumer. And seriously, how does Intel NEED this? Care to elaborate further on this with links or information?

2) It's not smart to ASSUME that BD will have hybrid DVD/BD. HD-DVD has it, and it's proven and reliable and will be in mass production. This creates a feeling of "safety" for the consumer. Nobody wants to get burned again with another BetaMax incident, and having that feeling of backwards compatibility and a good transition from DVD to HD-DVD would greately help the consumer in easing them to HD. BD on the other hand has yet to officially implement it into spec, they've stated it's going to be implemented in the future, but as of right now it's not happening and it's all only promises. With the uncertainty of how this market will actually go who's to say if they will actually implement it, don't assume it will be.

It is safe to assume that players will be DVD/BD enabled. And if you happen to run into a player that isn't just buy the next one that does. HD-DVD runs off of a blue laser and is different from the red laser DVD tech. They have just integrated both into a single lens technology and it's quite similar to what companies manufacturing BRD will have to do.

Red/Blue Laser tech for HD-DVD

No, the sky is not falling....

3) Upgrading facilities is important as well. It takes something like 1.5 - 1.7 Million dollars to upgrade existing DVD facilities to produce BD, and 2 Million for each new mastering system for BD. HD-DVD on the other hand only takes something like 150 Thousand to be able to press HD-DVD discs. A lot of companies won't take the plunge of millions of dollars to upgrade when they operate on a 10-15% margin. That's just way to big of a risk with no guarantee of return or with the success of the format. HD-DVD on the other hand is a somewhat less risky venture with backwards compatibility and hybrid ability at a much much lesser cost of upgrading. It's a smarter move from a business standpoint.

Whoa Whoa Whoa...Now are you are using your OWN poorly made and unfactual assumptions as FACT?? Get off your "BRD will not have hybrid players" wagon. Yes, it is cheaper to convert manufacturing plants to make HD-DVD discs and that is why the initial movie companies were split on which to support. Obviously the pluses on the BRD side though are outweighing the initial production revamp costs.

4) I think many of you guys are really underestimating the impact of China's backing of HD-DVD. Formats don't just revolve around US and Japan as many of you may be thinking, that's such a narrow scope and somewhat ignorant viewpoint. I think a lot of you are underestimating just how much China does these days. 75% of DVD players out there are from China, that's a MASSIVE MASSIVE amount, that's worldwide domination!! The widespread acceptance of DVD players was due to China's pushing to reduce the cost of the format to mainstream budgets. DVD really took off when 50-150 buck players hit the market, and who made this happen?? You guessed it, China did. We'd be way behind the progression/acceptance of the format if China hadn't pushed so hard, hell VHS may still have been the dominating format. So if HD-DVD is backed by China, that's HUGE. The first format to get the prices low enough for widespread acceptance will be most likely the winner, and more likely than not, HD-DVD has that better chance.

Again, back to top of your list with this, why should the movie companies be embracing a country that has THE biggest known share of piracy? Why do you think VCD does so well there? Movie companies make money off of the movies they sell. That's their business and they will push the formats ultimately.

So basically your whole "Intelligent and very explanatory" discussion consisted of opinionated and unfactual rhetoric and "Oh Noes! Pirates will have a hard time copying movies!". And your "not taking a narrow vision of the market" consisted of embracing China? Seriously dude, WTF?

What most people see is just BD capacity is > HD-DVD capacity BD IS BETTAR!!! They don't realize that there are a lot more aspects to this war that aren't so black and white. I'm not saying that BD is doomed by any means, I'm just saying some of you guys are dismissing HD-DVD prematurely and really underestimating it's ability to gain widespread appeal. It's not so doom and gloom, there's many factors that can come into play here. BD isn't as dominating as you many think.

What people see is trying to avoid a format war that will kill the next gen movie format war before it begins and split it into oblivion. No fanboy here, in fact if Xbox 360 had supported HD-DVD and more movie companies supported the format I would already have one pre-ordered like I planned. In reality this is going to be a very niche market right now and just like how people did not give a shit about recording options when DVD came out they won't care now. People just care how many movie companies are supporting the format and when they can pick up their favorite movie in that format. If BRD can get that in full force from the beginning then yay for them and yay for us consumers and bad for pirates.

Oh way to be so narrow minded. As stated above if capacity was the deciding factor HVD with it's 200GB per layer would assrape both these formats. But I guess nothing else is important only the fact that BD has 25GB layers as opposed to 15GB. Yup, game set match, all is over nothing else in the entire world matters in this war.

I don't give a shit about HVD right now because it's a future tech and I don't see any need for a 200GB disc. What practical use does it have for me?? BRD can do 1080p movies and that's all I give a shit about now, and hell i'm in a minority on that one compared to general consumers so just try to push HVD on them. It will be a long while before 1080p movies are even in the norm so what possible reason should movie companies have to wait for HVD? DVD is limited to 480p so there is a call for a movie disc format that can do true HDTV since that's the Gen we are coming into. It's pretty damn sad when I get a better picture from a TV channel and not my movie discs and that needs to change for the sooner.

 

[Raistlin]

This whole situation is completely fucked up. The two camps should really just come together and settle this silly fued once and for all. Have they no forsight or even common sense?
Didn't Sony take onboard Toshiba's tech last gen? I think it should be vice versa this time around and just get this thing over and done with.

They way things are progressing, what would Sony stand to gain? If it really appears that basically everyone is going to drop HD-DVD support, joining with Sony would do nothing but lose Sony money.

Why would they want to that? I'm definitly for one format, but that doesn't mean it has to be a unified format. If one can kill the other before launch (or soon afterwards), what's the difference?

 

[Tenacious-V]

Well since you are already starting off in a bit of a biased tone...but whatever let's continue.

Not biased, frustrated due to the bias of the majority on this forum. I don't like either BD or HD-DVD as I've stated many many times now. In fact I want them both dead as neither is a big enough leap in technology to warrant an upgrade, HVD is what I want, but that's not gonna happen.

This is the BIGGEST reason movie companies are wanting to support BRD. Solid information on BD recording is still aways off and anything you are saying at this point is speculation. Who gives a shit what pirates think and they are not a huge market. If you owned a movie company and wanted to avoid how mainstream and out of control piracy is getting you would be throwing your support behind the format that tries to answer these problems. First and foremost comes the movie companies. Consumers are really just now even starting on DVD recorders so it would be a ways off before HD-DVD or BRD recorders are even targeted by your normal consumer. And seriously, how does Intel NEED this? Care to elaborate further on this with links or information?

Making LEGAL copies is a BIG BIG factor. You assume duplication ability is automatically pirating. Don't assume anything. There are people out there who don't pirate and who DO wan't to make copies for backup purposes. Assuming it's not a big market right there is another narrowminded assumption. This is one of the BIGGEST reasons Microsoft backed HD-DVD. BD should be looking toward what the CONSUMER who is actually the ones buying the product wants, not what the RIAA and the industry try to dictate to them. DRM is NOT the right way to go about fighting piracy in this regard. Especially to the extent they have for BD, it's effects on the consumer are down right aggravating in regards to what the consumer is limited in doing. How does Intel need this?? Look at their newer platform releases coming out soon, such as ViiV.

Managed Copy is a guaranteed feature within HD DVD that gives consumers the freedom to make copies of their discs to a hard drive or home server, including Media Center PCs using Intel Viiv technology, and enjoy them in every room of the house over their home networks. HD DVD discs also will allow copies of the movie to be played on portable devices.

It is safe to assume that players will be DVD/BD enabled. And if you happen to run into a player that isn't just buy the next one that does. HD-DVD runs off of a blue laser and is different from the red laser DVD tech. They have just integrated both into a single lens technology and it's quite similar to what companies manufacturing BRD will have to do.

Red/Blue Laser tech for HD-DVD

No, the sky is not falling....

Those are players. I'm speaking DISCS. There is no hybrid BD/DVD discs in the spec of BD. HD-DVD has a layer with DVD9 and a layer with HD-DVD30 on 1 disc. Basically allowing both formats pressed to 1 disc so you can buy the HD-DVD movie and put it in your dvd player and it'll work, or you can put it in your HD-DVD player and have the HD version play.

Whoa Whoa Whoa...Now are you are using your OWN poorly made and unfactual assumptions as FACT?? Get off your "BRD will not have hybrid players" wagon. Yes, it is cheaper to convert manufacturing plants to make HD-DVD discs and that is why the initial movie companies were split on which to support. Obviously the pluses on the BRD side though are outweighing the initial production revamp costs.

Again, you are missunderstanding what I stated. Both sides will have hybrid PLAYERS, I'm speaking hybrid DISCS. So don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

Again, back to top of your list with this, why should the movie companies be embracing a country that has THE biggest known share of piracy? Why do you think VCD does so well there? They make money off of the movies they sell. That's their business.

Why?? because they're the ones who created the massproduction and affordability of DVD players in the world. Probably if you look at any of the players you own, and where they're made, it'll be from China. You say I've got some bias, yet you're downplaying an entire Country and downgrading them to "nothing but a coutry of piraters." The world doesn't revolove around the USA as much as you so ignorantly want it to. 75% of DVD players in the world are from there, and their backing of HD-DVD is EXTREMELY significant in the large scale of things.

So basically your whole "Intelligent and very explanatory" discussion consisted of opinionated and unfactual rhetoric and "Oh Noes! Pirates will have a hard time copying movies!". And your "not taking a narrow vision of the market" consisted of embracing China? Seriously dude, WTF?

No you took all of my points and tried to turn it into nothing but pirating. You assume duplication is nothing but piracy, you assume China's backing means nothing but piracy, you assume Microsoft is insignificant. You do have a narrow view, as you negate all facts and try to twist them into what it isn't. You're the one assuming to much.

What people see is trying to avoid a format war that will kill the next gen movie format war before it begins and split it into oblivion. No fanboy here, in fact if Xbox 360 had supported HD-DVD and more movie companies supported the format I would already have one pre-ordered like I planned. In reality this is going to be a very niche market right now and just like how people did not give a shit about recording options when DVD came out they won't care now. Just how many movie companies are supporting the format and when they can pick up their favorite movie in that format. If BRD can get that in full force from the beginning then yay for them and yay for us consumers and bad for pirates.

Oh so you say DVD hasn't picked up enough, as well for duplication reasons yet you think BD starting from scratch will take off easier and faster than a format that has DVD/HD built in together on the same DISC allowing an easier transition?? A HD format that still plays in OLD DVD players looks to have an easier chance of taking off. As well as being cheaper to produce, which in turn will allow cheaper prices for US. And China's backing allowing the PLAYERS to come down in price much faster.... Again I'm not saying BD is dead or anything like that, I'm just trying to get it into peoples heads that HD-DVD is a BIGGER contender than you all think. The blatant fanboy following of BD and total disregard of HD-DVD is quite frankly extremely ignorant.

But go ahead, twist whatever I said into nothing but pirating and unfactual fallacy.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Wow this is the most unintelligent discussion I've seen yet.

checkbox + checkbox = teh winnar
list this = winnar
Sony am bettar WINNAR
blah blah am cry!

Talk about narrow minded blind fanboyism. This format war goes way beyond CONSOLES and the USA. I tried to bring reason/rationality/reality into this discussion in the other HD threads, but all you guys do is see more PR and revert back to "OMG this am dead because ______ PR says so." Open your eyes and look at things from a BROAD WORLDWIDE perspective instead of world revolves around Sony/USA and you'd see things differently. BD isn't a god among formats, and HD-DVD isn't DOA. Can't believe how much assuming you guys do, sad....

Cry me a fucking river. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I wish BD was made by like Samsung or someone else, so the prejudices of this forum wouldn't have any sway. BD is a better format, PERIOD. Greater capacity and greater potential. Does it really matter that it's made by Sony? HD-DVD is the inferior format. What advantages are there to a media change? Duh, fucking capacity. End of story. It doesn't matter who makes BD, it's the better format, and Toshiba was pushing an inferior product despite the writing on the wall.

Good fucking riddance. There is only Warner and Universal in the HD-DVD camp now, and Warner will hopefully announce BD support this week. Universal will capitulate in due time. Toshiba should have gone for unification. A unified format was in the best interest of the customer. But given a format war, the better format deserves to win, and that's BD, plain and simple. This is not a PR war. BD is gonna beat HD-DVD. It's been argued a long time that the PS3 was the trump card. It is confirmed by Paramount here. BD may not make any great strides in the next few years, as a movie format. But that's why it's being mostly developed as a recordable format right now. It will trojan horse its way through with the PS3, while Sony and others recoup development costs with DVR sales. The step to HD is a good one b/c this is the first chance we get to have a new tv standard and media standard jump off at the same time. This could offer the ultimate in longevity for home movie standards. I don't see this as a fanboy issue beyond the gluttons who continue to back HD-DVD, and the people who are so shortsighted as to not see the ultimate benefits afforded. PEACE.

 

[sonycowboy]

Those are players. I'm speaking DISCS. There is no hybrid BD/DVD discs in the spec of BD. HD-DVD has a layer with DVD9 and a layer with HD-DVD30 on 1 disc. Basically allowing both formats pressed to 1 disc so you can buy the HD-DVD movie and put it in your dvd player and it'll work, or you can put it in your HD-DVD player and have the HD version play.

Yes, there is. Microsoft / Intel's contention was that it wasn't currently available, along with the belief that the 50GB Dual layer discs aren't real. Both, of course, aren't true and were vigorously contested by HP, Dell, & Sony. So, it's a matter of who you believe.

Again, you are missunderstanding what I stated. Both sides will have hybrid PLAYERS, I'm speaking hybrid DISCS. So don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

Maybe you don't. Clearly your first statement above was incorrect.

Oh so you say DVD hasn't picked up enough, as well for duplication reasons yet you think BD starting from scratch will take off easier and faster than a format that has DVD/HD built in together on the same DISC allowing an easier transition?? A HD format that still plays in OLD DVD players looks to have an easier chance of taking off. As well as being cheaper to produce, which in turn will allow cheaper prices for US. And China's backing allowing the PLAYERS to come down in price much faster....

Forgetting the ridiculous China / Taiwan arguments (they are not going to decide this battle at all), you're point about a single disc is also nullified here as Blu-Ray has it.


Why don't you go on about other facts. Liked managed copy is a feature of Blu-Ray as well. In fact, Blu-Ray has everything HD-DVD has and more. Giving studios means to choose their security should be supported. Microsoft is willing to allow me to manage copies as long as I use 100% Microsoft devices? Thanks, but no thanks.

In addition, HD-DVD cannot go beyond 3 layers for 45GB, whereas Blu-Ray is ALREADY past that (46/50/54GB) and will go as high as 200GB in the future. Being a standard where the technology can actually improve over time, whereas HD-DVD's insistence on staying with the DVD's physical format (0.6mm) has already created the ceiling for them, with no room to go anywhere.

I know you're not particularly supporting HD-DVD, but other than initial production costs, HD-DVD has absolutely nothing on Blu-Ray. And it seems almost all consumer electronics, movie studios, & computer companies agree (minus Intel & Microsoft)

 

[Ponn]

Not biased, frustrated due to the bias of the majority on this forum. I don't like either BD or HD-DVD as I've stated many many times now. In fact I want them both dead as neither is a big enough leap in technology to warrant an upgrade, HVD is what I want, but that's not gonna happen.

By the way, so that initial posting was all your unbiased, unPR intelligent discussion huh? Well a little searching and I find this on Tom's Hardware

MS's PR speak on why they chose HD-DVD to support

Yea right, un-biased and not blinded by PR my ass....your post was word for word almost copied from that press release...anyways to go on.

Making LEGAL copies is a BIG BIG factor. You assume duplication ability is automatically pirating. Don't assume anything. There are people out there who don't pirate and who DO wan't to make copies for backup purposes. Assuming it's not a big market right there is another narrowminded assumption. This is one of the BIGGEST reasons Microsoft backed HD-DVD. BD should be looking toward what the CONSUMER who is actually the ones buying the product wants, not what the RIAA and the industry try to dictate to them. DRM is NOT the right way to go about fighting piracy in this regard. Especially to the extent they have for BD, it's effects on the consumer are down right aggravating in regards to what the consumer is limited in doing. How does Intel need this?? Look at their newer platform releases coming out soon, such as ViiV.

Blah blah blah..."quoting repeating what MS rep says" blah blah. Any numbers to support how big this "consumer who makes legal back ups of bought DVD's" is? Yea, didn't think so and very, very weak argument. And again, just quoting what the MS guy said about that Intel tech. Oh here, direct quote which you are just trying to get at anyways..

ntel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user,

Basically copy movies to HDD and transfer and watch on a HDTV or computer, more then fucking likely, over a MS computer. Besides providing a HUGE hole for hackers and pirates, why should BRD bend over backwards to support this tech that will only be a luxury convenience, not used by many, and then only on a MS PC? This is not a make or break thing here, unless of course you are being a fanboy for this PR press release....

Those are players. I'm speaking DISCS. There is no hybrid BD/DVD discs in the spec of BD. HD-DVD has a layer with DVD9 and a layer with HD-DVD30 on 1 disc. Basically allowing both formats pressed to 1 disc so you can buy the HD-DVD movie and put it in your dvd player and it'll work, or you can put it in your HD-DVD player and have the HD version play.

Yea, I finally saw that after reading your poorly written and stolen argument from this MS PR press release. You know what that is a nice and great feature, but let's be realistic in the age of a gazillion Army of Darkness DVD release's and multiple edition milking, do you think movies companies are going to be nice enough to you to take advantage of this? Yea, I didn't think so either.

Why?? because they're the ones who created the massproduction and affordability of DVD players in the world. Probably if you look at any of the players you own, and where they're made, it'll be from China. You say I've got some bias, yet you're downplaying an entire Country and downgrading them to "nothing but a coutry of piraters." The world doesn't revolove around the USA as much as you so ignorantly want it to. 75% of DVD players in the world are from there, and their backing of HD-DVD is EXTREMELY significant in the large scale of things.

No, seriously it's great you can be so hyped about a MS PR press release and believe it so fervently without thinking for yourself. I mean China makes most of the shit that is sold in Wal-mart too but if you haven't noticed they just recently started opening them there. There is a difference between hardware sales and software/movie sales. How many DVD players are owned there? How is software and DVD sales there? Why do you think piracy is so rampant there? Take a minute and think on those things ok?

No you took all of my points and tried to turn it into nothing but pirating. You assume duplication is nothing but piracy, you assume China's backing means nothing but piracy, you assume Microsoft is insignificant. You do have a narrow view, as you negate all facts and try to twist them into what it isn't. You're the one assuming to much.

And almost your entire argument for HD-DVD having a chance against BRD is "HD-DVD is more open to copying" and "OMG China is neglected!" You have nothing to back up your claims and are just blindly quoting word for word a MS PR press release. The moment you can come up with some substantial numbers for this "outcry" of consumers wanting to make legal backups of their movies they bought then let's talk. Until then you coming into a thread and calling everyone blind fanboys with this copied MS PR statement as your backup and ONLY argument is pretty weak.

Oh so you say DVD hasn't picked up enough, as well for duplication reasons yet you think BD starting from scratch will take off easier and faster than a format that has DVD/HD built in together on the same DISC allowing an easier transition?? A HD format that still plays in OLD DVD players looks to have an easier chance of taki offng.

I'm "assuming" a format backed by the most motion picture studios will have the easiest time yes. The rest of your sentence is from a MS PR statement. I don't see any movie studios backing this whole "two movie formats on the same disc" thing for very obvious reasons I stated above. Pipe dreaming.

As well as being cheaper to produce, which in turn will allow cheaper prices for US. And China's backing allowing the PLAYERS to come down in price much faster.... Again I'm not saying BD is dead or anything like that, I'm just trying to get it into peoples heads that HD-DVD is a BIGGER contender than you all think. The blatant fanboy following of BD and total disregard of HD-DVD is quite frankly extremely ignorant.

Pot trying to call the red tea kettle black, really. You are basing your argument on assumptions, speculations and totally negating the biggest factor of support from software and movie companies. It comes down to the movies and the fact that if a format war can be avoided it's for the best and BRD has the best shot at this point and you have yet to even consider that in your "unbiased" argument.

But go ahead, twist whatever I said into nothing but pirating and unfactual fallacy.

A ducks a duck.....not twisting anything.

 

[sonycowboy]

So, basically, here's the breakdown:

1) Every single movie will be available on Blu-Ray vs less than half on HD-DVD at best

2) 40% of worldwide computer manufacturers (or 60% US) - DELL, HP, SONY, & Apple are all commited to the Blu-Ray format vs Toshiba & NEC, of which neither seems to have higher than a 3% market share.) for HD-DVD. And in the computer space, storage amount is clearly a key, so an extra 66% in storage space seems to be a huge advantage.

3) 90% of consumer electronics companies will be supporting Blu-Ray vs less than 30% for HD-DVD.

4) Blu-Ray is a recordable format, where 25GB holds about 2 hrs of high definition video. HD-DVD with 15GB, obviously holds a little more than an hour. Going double layer, obviously helps both sides. Anybody seeing this as similar to 25 years ago?

5) HD-DVD is cheaper to produce per disc (by 20% initially, but Blu-Ray claims it will actually be less than DVD eventually) and costs less for replication facilities to convert. Movie studios account for half of DVD's produced and the cost doesn't seem prohibitive to them and they're notoriously tight fisted.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Yes, there is. Microsoft / Intel's contention was that it wasn't currently available, along with the belief that the 50GB Dual layer discs aren't real. Both, of course, aren't true and were vigorously contested by HP, Dell, & Sony. So, it's a matter of who you believe.

It's not OFFICIALLY in the spec. Yes they've got it in the labs, but there's a HUGE difference between lab production and MASS production.

JVC's statements at blu-ray.com

JVC was showcasing their BD/DVD hybrid media (33.5GB), which was developed to ease the transition from DVD to Blu-ray by creating a disc that will play in both BD players and DVD players. The hybrid disc is basically a single-layer BD-ROM (25GB) and a dual-layer DVD-ROM (8.5GB) in the same disc, which can be read in both players as the Blu-ray layer is transparent to the red laser used in a conventional DVD player.

A JVC representative offered a live demonstration where he first put the hybrid disc in the BD player and played the video in high definition (HD), he then transferred the disc to the conventional DVD player which seamlessly played the same video in standard definition (SD). According to the JVC representative the BD/DVD hybrid will be part of the BD-ROM specification, which was also confirmed by a BDA representative at the show.

As I stated before it's not OFFICIALLY in the spec yet. I'm not negating the fact that it will be in the future, but it isn't NOW and there's no guarantee as to when it'll happen. HP/Dell stated they have them, but didn't state they were in the spec OR going to be mass produced.

Maybe you don't. Clearly your first statement above was incorrect.

It was correct.

Forgetting the ridiculous China / Taiwan arguments (they are not going to decide this battle at all), you're point about a single disc is also nullified here as Blu-Ray has it.

Don't be so hasty in disregarding countries so easily. It's an ignorant thing to do. There are other places than just USA, or Japan, and thinking otherwise is just horrible. I absolutely hate people who think everything revolves around only their respective countries.

Why don't you go on about other facts. Liked managed copy is a feature of Blu-Ray as well. In fact, Blu-Ray has everything HD-DVD has and more. Giving studios means to choose their security should be supported. Microsoft is willing to allow me to manage copies as long as I use 100% Microsoft devices? Thanks, but no thanks.

The DRM incorporated into BD allows nowhere near the flexibility of duplication that HD-DVD allows. It was one of the biggest points MS stated.

In addition, HD-DVD cannot go beyond 3 layers for 45GB, whereas Blu-Ray is ALREADY past that (46/50/54GB) and will go as high as 200GB in the future. Being a standard where the technology can actually improve over time, whereas HD-DVD's insistence on staying with the DVD's physical format (0.6mm) has already created the ceiling for them, with no room to go anywhere.

BD's dual layer is hard enough for them to mass produce, I believe it is still in lab, albeit much farther along than before. The current 50GB discs out there now are of the cartridge form, NOT the DL disc/coating form. and thinking they'll go beyond that for cunsumer movies is a rediculous assumption. Thinking they'll even go to 200GB at an affordable price is almost nonexistent. 4 layers is almost a 0% chance of production, when 2 layers is already giving enough problems. That as well as having to buy a new player if they ever go beyond 2 layers as the laser now will not support beyond it.

I know you're not particularly supporting HD-DVD, but other than initial production costs, HD-DVD has absolutely nothing on Blu-Ray. And it seems almost all consumer electronics, movie studios, & computer companies agree (minus Intel & Microsoft)

I know BD is a better format, I never disputed that. It is NOT a beat your ass down superior format though. I'm just trying to say HD-DVD is ample competition for it, and has enough features and backing/support from different regions to give it a good run for it's money. I just hate the fact that almost everyone here is disregarding it as DOA without reason, just blind loyalty.

But I'm basically just a 1 man army here trying to make people understand. I don't even know why I'm trying. Nobody's listening anyway....

 

[Ninja Scooter]

what does HD-DVD have over BR?

 

[Tenacious-V]

By the way, so that initial posting was all your unbiased, unPR intelligent discussion huh? Well a little searching and I find this on Tom's Hardware

MS's PR speak on why they chose HD-DVD to support

Yea right, un-biased and not blinded by PR my ass....your post was word for word almost copied from that press release...anyways to go on.





Blah blah blah..."quoting repeating what MS rep says" blah blah. Any numbers to support how big this "consumer who makes legal back ups of bought DVD's" is? Yea, didn't think so and very, very weak argument. And again, just quoting what the MS guy said about that Intel tech. Oh here, direct quote which you are just trying to get at anyways..



Basically copy movies to HDD and transfer and watch on a HDTV or computer, more then fucking likely, over a MS computer. Besides providing a HUGE hole for hackers and pirates, why should BRD bend over backwards to support this tech that will only be a luxury convenience, not used by many, and then only on a MS PC? This is not a make or break thing here, unless of course you are being a fanboy for this PR press release....







Yea, I finally saw that after reading your poorly written and stolen argument from this MS PR press release. You know what that is a nice and great feature, but let's be realistic in the age of a gazillion Army of Darkness DVD release's and multiple edition milking, do you think movies companies are going to be nice enough to you to take advantage of this? Yea, I didn't think so either.





No, seriously it's great you can be so hyped about a MS PR press release and believe it so fervently without thinking for yourself. I mean China makes most of the shit that is sold in Wal-mart too but if you haven't noticed they just recently started opening them there. There is a difference between hardware sales and software/movie sales. How many DVD players are owned there? How is software and DVD sales there? Why do you think piracy is so rampant there? Take a minute and think on those things ok?





And almost your entire argument for HD-DVD having a chance against BRD is "HD-DVD is more open to copying" and "OMG China is neglected!" You have nothing to back up your claims and are just blindly quoting word for word a MS PR press release. The moment you can come up with some substantial numbers for this "outcry" of consumers wanting to make legal backups of their movies they bought then let's talk. Until then you coming into a thread and calling everyone blind fanboys with this copied MS PR statement as your backup and ONLY argument is pretty weak.





I'm "assuming" a format backed by the most motion picture studios will have the easiest time yes. The rest of your sentence is from a MS PR statement. I don't see any movie studios backing this whole "two movie formats on the same disc" thing for very obvious reasons I stated above. Pipe dreaming.



Pot trying to call the red tea kettle black, really. You are basing your argument on assumptions, speculations and totally negating the biggest factor of support from software and movie companies. It comes down to the movies and the fact that if a format war can be avoided it's for the best and BRD has the best shot at this point and you have yet to even consider that in your "unbiased" argument.



A ducks a duck.....not twisting anything.

I'm not even gonna break down your post cause all you do is attack me personally instead of providing reasoning behind your negations and information. I provided info/facts and gave ample reasons. All you did was automatically negate everything I said without reason and instantly became hostile and attack me on a personal basis and assume I'm some fanboy. Why argue with a person who's just gonna disregard everything anyway and attack me. I'll be the mature one and stop.

 

[Ponn]

I'm not even gonna break down your post cause all you do is attack me personally instead of providing reasoning behind your negations and information. I provided info/facts and gave ample reasons. All you did was automatically negate everything I said without reason and instantly became hostile and attack me on a personal basis and assume I'm some fanboy. Why argue with a person who's just gonna disregard everything anyway and attack me. I'll be the mature one and stop.

Oh boo hoo. I never attacked you directly, I was calling you a hypocrite for coming into a thread and calling everyone fanboys blinded by PR when your entire argument ended up a copied a pasted MS PR statement. And I provided plenty of reasoning but you can't seem to come up with anything to defend your allegations, assumptions and speculation. But hey do the classic "I don't have a leg to stand on so I will pretend I win my argument and turn tail and run while casting allegations of ad hominem attacks." Whatever dude, good riddance.

EDIT: Thanks for driving my point even further home with your next post.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Oh boo hoo. I never attacked you directly, I was calling you a hypocrite for coming into a thread and calling everyone fanboys blinded by PR when your entire argument ended up a copied a pasted MS PR statement. And I provided plenty of reasoning but you can't seem to come up with anything to defend your allegations, assumptions and speculation. But hey do the classic "I don't have a leg to stand on so I will pretend I win my argument and turn tail and run while casting allegations of ad hominem attacks." Whatever dude, good riddance.

You absolutely did not give good reasonings to your negations of my argument. The only person that had any sort of good argument was sonycowboy. You on the other hand resorted to turning China into an insignificant pirate country, HD-DVD into a worthless pirate format, MS into a useless pirate inducing backer, and me into some MS PR HD-DVD fanboy when I've stated countless times what my format of choice is. Hell even sonycowboy knew that much... You gave no good arguments, just everything is about pirating and I'm some bad hypocrite. You couldn't defend your negations in any other way than to assume it's about pirating and to attack me.

And if you actually payed attention to what I've been saying, you'd know I didn't say HD-DVD was the superior format, you'd REALIZE I didn't say it'll be the winner. I simply said it's ample competition. But that doesn't matter in your view. It's I'm a hypocrite and HD-DVD is nothing but a pirate haven.

I say you're just plain ignorant.

 

[Pimpwerx]

You absolutely did not give good reasonings to your negations of my argument. The only person that had any sort of good argument was sonycowboy. You on the other hand resorted to turning China into an insignificant pirate country, HD-DVD into a worthless pirate format, MS into a useless pirate inducing backer, and me into some MS PR HD-DVD fanboy. You gave no good arguments, just everything is about pirating and I'm some bad hypocrite. You couldn't defend your negations in any other way than to assume it's about pirating and to attack me.

...no really, what does HD-DVD have over BD? :lol PEACE.

 

[Tenacious-V]

...no really, what does HD-DVD have over BD? :lol PEACE.

If you payed attention to anything you'd realize my argument wasn't about which format was better.

edit: MODs, you might as well lock this, nothing constructive seems to be coming out of it anymore.....

 

[WordofGod]

If you payed attention to anything you'd realize my argument wasn't about which format was better.

edit: MODs, you might as well lock this, nothing constructive seems to be coming out of it anymore.....

Get rid of HD-DVD. As a format, it is about as stupid as Nintendo choosing those small discs instead of the DVD format that Sony choose to use.

 

[Pimpwerx]

If you payed attention to anything you'd realize my argument wasn't about which format was better.

edit: MODs, you might as well lock this, nothing constructive seems to be coming out of it anymore.....

This is what I'm getting at. A format change is about getting an increase in capacity. Failing that, you should at least offer some reasonable peripheral advantages offered by HD-DVD. Otherwise, wtf are you even posting about? This is why no one is taking your point seriously, b/c it isn't to be taken seriously. HD-DVD failed the first and most important test of a new storage format, capacity. Since then, the arguments on price and other performance issues have been soundly defeated. There is honestly no point talking further about the format since it's clearly got a foot in the grave. Unification was the best option, but since that failed, it's time to hop on the winning train, which is BD. Locking this thread won't change much. This argument has raged on since HD-DVD was called AOD. It's an inferior product. Grab a tomato and get to pelting. PEACE.

 

[Mooreberg]

Don't be so hasty in disregarding countries so easily. It's an ignorant thing to do. There are other places than just USA, or Japan, and thinking otherwise is just horrible. I absolutely hate people who think everything revolves around only their respective countries.

China's government promotes the use of Linux over Windows because it's cost prohibitive to them. So does that mean Windows is screwed worldwide? Or can Microsoft make money from the countries that buy software?

Your analogies are ridiculous.

 

[Hitokage]

DRM/Legal Copying IS a valid and pressing issue, but your remarks regarding manufacturing costs are FUD(as I understand it) and your china argument is completely idiotic.

Seriously, go look at the VCD collection of somebody, ANYBODY, who isn't in east asia.

 

[AB 101]

This is what I am talking about.

Hooo aaaah!

 

[mrklaw]

as much as some here may hate Sony (even though Bluray isn't solely their format), or for some odd reason want HD-DVD to succeed - its dead.


If paramount, universal and Warner switch to Bluray (even non-exclusively), then Toshiba et al need to start talking seriously with the Bluray camp to at least try and save some of their tech (and IP)


With this announcement, and the Toshiba delay, I think HD-DVD may never actually make it to market.

 

[gofreak]

I very sincerely hope Warner and Universal move to support Bluray. I don't want to be supporting two formats, even in the short term..I mean if forced I probably would, but it would be very nice to be able to completely ignore one.

 

[Raistlin]

Tenacious-V
Thinks his PR is better than yours.

:lol

 

[Lord Error]

1) Every single movie will be available on Blu-Ray vs less than half on HD-DVD at best

I wouldn't go there yet. Universal and Warner haven't announced any form of support for BRD. I hope in future they will simply support both formats, at least until it clears out whether either of them will come out as a clear market winner.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

The HD-DVD software layer is a Microsoft/Toshiba technology, whereas the Blu-Ray layer is Java based. The amount of FUD spewing from the Microsoft camp is to be expected, but their hand in this game is pretty weak.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Great thread....very intertaining

 

[pestul]

I will buy Blu-Ray.. but I want HD-DVD to succeed too. Sure it may be bad for the consumer.. but it's good for us if we have both in the market. We need a fight to keep the prices down. Geez... that said, buy Blu-Ray if it's superior format, let the consumers be stupid and buy HD-DVD & Blu-Ray and be confused. We win in the end.

 

[teiresias]

Keeping prices down is a secondary concern at this point - as a niche market either HiDef disc format is going to have a kind of premium pricing - indeed, one of the motivations for the studios to push out the new formats is to create a new market where they can get higher profit margins than are possible with regular DVD nowadays do to consumer expectations of DVD pricing.