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[Idiot Member]

I was playing sword of mana the other day, comparing it to Final Fantasy Adventure, not to mention Link's Awakening.

I have to say that I would love to see a Br2 Zelda rather than the crappy Flagship games.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Br2?

 

[Idiot Member]

Brownie Brown

 

[Mama Smurf]

Will be purged sooner or later

Could we make it sooner?

The Flagship games are far from crappy, particularly Minish Cap.

 

[Deku Tree]

I have to say that I would love to see a Br2 Zelda rather than the crappy Flagship games.

Got anything to back that up with? All I've heard is uniformly high praise for Minish Cap.

 

[Idiot Member]

Could we make it sooner?

The Flagship games are far from crappy, particularly Minish Cap.

I haven't played Minish Cap, what sets it apart from the other zelda flagship games.

And how can you not call them crap when games like a link to the past were made over 10 years earlier...

 

[jarrod]

The Flagship games are far from crappy, particularly Minish Cap.

Indeed, they're arguably better than EAD's efforts even (though it's actually Flagship and Capcom Studio 1 making the games together). Brownie Brown (and Square Enix Division 8) makes nice looking games, but they just don't compare when it comes to game design and mechanics. No thanks.

 

[Idiot Member]

Got anything to back that up with? All I've heard is uniformly high praise for Minish Cap.

All I know is that Sword of Mana is one of the best handheld action rpgs I've ever played and it was only a remake of FFA. Imagining what they did to FFA, I'm drooling over what they could do with the unlimited zelda universe and make a good game.

 

[Idiot Member]

Indeed, they're arguably better than EAD's efforts even (though it's actually Flagship and Capcom Studio 1 making the games together). Brownie Brown (and Square Enix Division 8) makes nice looking games, but they just don't compare when it comes to game design and mechanics. No thanks.

Do you mean to tell me that you don't love the magic and weapon systems from Sword of Mana, not to mention the technique/skills from Seiken Densetsu 3? They are far superior to what has been offered in the Zelda GB/A games.

I think Br2 is great, and would add quite a bit of wealth to the handheld series that has been lacking.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I hear very mixed reactions to BB's games, I wouldn;t want them working on Zelda.

A lot of people prefer the Oracle games to LttP, or at least see them as comparable (even though they're made on a weaker system).

Minish Cap is definitely better than LttP, if a little short.

 

[Idiot Member]

Indeed, they're arguably better than EAD's efforts even (though it's actually Flagship and Capcom Studio 1 making the games together). Brownie Brown (and Square Enix Division 8) makes nice looking games, but they just don't compare when it comes to game design and mechanics. No thanks.

Didn't EAD make Link's Awakening/DX? I think that was better than Oracle of Ages/Seasons. I haven't played the last two zelda games though. Wasn't the last one just a port of a link to the past (not minish cap, but the 4 player one before it)?

 

[Idiot Member]

I hear very mixed reactions to BB's games, I wouldn;t want them working on Zelda.

A lot of people prefer the Oracle games to LttP, or at least see them as comparable (even though they're made on a weaker system).

Minish Cap is definitely better than LttP, if a little short.

Clearly I have to play Minish Cap, does it use the same system as the other flagship zelda games? If so I wouldn't be so easily convinced. The system seems extremely limited compared to a game made in 1991.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Do you mean control system?

 

[darscot]

Minish Cap is definitely better than LttP, if a little short.

You really think so I thought Minish Cap was a great game but the length and the keystones hold it back. LttP is a far better game.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I loved LttP, and the music is probably about equal in each (though the greater variation in MC probably puts it ahead), but the dungeons were better designed, the graphics are superior, the overworld is far more interesting and seems to play like a dungeon itself often and the combat kicks LttP's ass all over the shop.

Also, MC has

Spoiler

the four sword

which is a ridiculously fun play mechanic, and adds much more variety to puzzles.

 

[Swordian]

All I know is that Sword of Mana is one of the best handheld action rpgs I've ever played and it was only a remake of FFA. Imagining what they did to FFA, I'm drooling over what they could do with the unlimited zelda universe and make a good game.

Considering what they did to FFA, I don't want them touching anything ever again. SoM was a travesty.

 

[Idiot Member]

Do you mean control system?

The fluidity of the controls, the weak monster design, the world design.

And overall the games felt far more generic in general. I wasn't a huge fan of links awakening compared to LttP, but it was good for it's time. Why are they still using the same system that was behind even then?

That is why I would like to see Br2 make a Zelda game.

They (with Square Enix) made Seiken Densetsu in 1991 (I think they did a pretty piss poor job).

They evolved their efforts on a more advanced system in 1993, though I think they were still really behind Nintendo in a lot of ways (lttp)

But in 1995 Seiken Densetsu 3 was released and it completely outshines lttp. They keep improving their games, albeit SD3 and LoM do regress in some (many) areas.

Then they go back and remake a game made in 1991, and it shines in my opinion over anything I've seen from Flagship. I am genuinely impressed with Sword of Mana. Is it perfect no... but it's a remake with a lot of quality and evolution put into it.

 

[fennec fox]

Hello GAF! I like to be an idiot!'s nick is messing up the spacing on the main index page. Maybe someone could rename him to HG! ILTBAI! or something.

 

[Idiot Member]

Considering what they did to FFA, I don't want them touching anything ever again. SoM was a travesty.

What did you have against Sword of Mana? It completely improves upon FFA. Even the convoluted story is better than the weak sauce in FFA.

 

[tedtropy]

I loved LttP, and the music is probably about equal in each (though the greater variation in MC probably puts it ahead), but the dungeons were better designed, the graphics are superior, the overworld is far more interesting and seems to play like a dungeon itself often and the combat kicks LttP's ass all over the shop.

Also, MC has

Spoiler

the four sword

which is a ridiculously fun play mechanic, and adds much more variety to puzzles.

I'm enjoying Minish Cap immensely, but better the LttP? Eh, I don't know. LttP felt so much larger and I enjoyed the darker atmosphere more, especially the transitions from the light world to the dark. You really felt the doom and gloom in that title - Ocarina was the same way. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the upbeat Zelda titles as well, just not as much...

 

[darscot]

Tedtropy nailed my point LttP was an epic. MC just didn't have the scope.

 

[jarrod]

Do you mean to tell me that you don't love the magic and weapon systems from Sword of Mana, not to mention the technique/skills from Seiken Densetsu 3? They are far superior to what has been offered in the Zelda GB/A games.

In terms of only weapon grind and magic systems... sure SD2-3 have any Zelda beat. But then, that not really what Zelda's about. I just don't think Brownie Brown has what it takes to manage Zelda's item based exploration/progression and intricate puzzle dungeons. Every Mana game pales in comparison to Zelda when looked at from those angles.

I think Br2 is great, and would add quite a bit of wealth to the handheld series that has been lacking.

Visually maybe, but game design would be dumbed down or altered to the point of not being Zelda anymore, if the Mana games are anything to go by. I think they'd be better off doing something like a Mario ARPG.

Didn't EAD make Link's Awakening/DX? I think that was better than Oracle of Ages/Seasons. I haven't played the last two zelda games though. Wasn't the last one just a port of a link to the past (not minish cap, but the 4 player one before it)?

A Link to the Past was ported by Nintendo R&D2 actually (who also handled the DX version of Link's Awakening). Flagship/Capcom Studio 1 handled the Four Swords multiplayer game that was included with it though. Link's Awakening is excellent, but I'd also say the same for the Oracle games (particularly Ages)... I was talking more interms of what EAD's producing today (The Wind Waker, Four Swords Adventures, etc). So the Zelda series breaks down like this...

Nintendo EAD
-The Legend of Zelda (1986)
-The Adventure of Link (1987)
-A Link to the Past (1991)
-Link's Awakening (1993)
-Ocarina of Time (1998)
-Majora's Mask (2000)
-Ocarina of Time Master Quest (2002)
-The Wind Waker (2002)
-Four Swords Adventures (2004)

Nintendo R&D2
-Link's Awakening DX (1998)
-A Link to the Past DX (2002)

Capcom Studio 1 + Flagship
-Oracle of Ages (2001)
-Oracle of Seasons (2001)
-Four Swords (2002)
-The Minish Cap (2004)

 

[Idiot Member]

Tedtropy nailed my point LttP was an epic. MC just didn't have the scope.

That is the EXACT word I would use. EPIC.

The feeling I get when I see Legend of Zelda for Gamecube is just that EPIC. I don't feel that way about Wind Waker, or any of the handheld zeldas.

 

[nubbe]

Minish Cap is definitely better than LttP, if a little short.

Minish Cap is better looking. But it is definitely inferior to LttP.

It’s too god damn short. I thought it was just starting when it was actually ending!
The Minish is nothing more then a ploy then an actual addition to the Zelda Universe, they could have cut them out entirely.

They where unable to deliver a satisfying experience. The Oracle games where great and I felt fulfilled after playing them. Minish feels just as rushed as WW.
It’s almost as if the Zelda seriese has reached a dead end where they can no longer come up with anything fresh… Minish cap had some creative Boss encounter but that’s about it… Everything else about Minish Cap felt recycled.

 

[jarrod]

Oh and ALTTP is criminally overrated... in fact it's by a wide margin the worst overhead Zelda in terms of dungeon design, world progression and mechanics/puzzles/challenge in general. Link's Awakening and the Oracle games smoke it in terms of overall game design, no joke.*

*note: I haven't played Minish Cap yet, so I'll reserve judgement there.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I can agree that MC wasn't as epic, but I still feel it was the better game. Everyone seems to agree that MM was much darker than OoT with a more interesting story etc, but I still think OoT is better. I like the epic feeling, but it isn't the be all and end all. MC felt more like WW.

It seems not many people agree with BB's prowess:

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/914616.asp

SoM get's an average of 74%. 74% for an extremely fondly remembered game is poor.

Magical Vacation never came out outside of Japan, so it's harder to judge, but I know there was a lot of disappointment with it from impressions back when it was released.

It’s almost as if the Zelda seriese has reached a dead end where they can no longer come up with anything fresh… Minish cap had some creative Boss encounter but that’s about it… Everything else about Minish Cap felt recycled.

If nothing else,

Spoiler

the four sword

is still new enough to be considered fresh. I don't see how kinstones are recycled either.

And jarrod is king.

 

[Swordian]

What did you have against Sword of Mana? It completely improves upon FFA. Even the convoluted story is better than the weak sauce in FFA.

SoM is depressingly mediocre. Aside from the crap story and glitchy graphics, a good portion of the gameplay is just poorly done. I was happy to hear they were using ring menus because I loved them in Secret of Mana, but the ones here went too many levels deep. They so finely categorized everything that it took too long to get down to the item or whatever that you were looking for. Combine this with enemies being immune to certain weapon types and switching weapons became very very tedious.

The partner system is terrible as well. In FFA they didn't do much in the way of attacking, but the ASK command was great. In Secret of Mana, if they were CPU controlled they weren't very helpful, but I could access thier menus to cast spells. In SoM, the partners are just useless. They even took out the Chocobo partner.

At the very least, the remixed music is quite good.

 

[Idiot Member]

It seems not many people agree with BB's prowess:

http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/914616.asp

SoM get's an average of 74%. 74% for an extremely fondly remembered game is poor.

I don't take Gamerankings seriously at all. A lot of good games have received poor critical acclaim. And a lot of poor games that received good reviews that they didn't deserve.

FFA is hardly a game that is extremely fondly remembered, it lives in the shadow of games like SoM and even SD3.

The fact that it was a remake, probably reduced it's value with a lot of reviewers.

 

[Ironclad]

To add fuel to the fire, the controls in SoM were absolutely terrible. The combatwas absolutely misearable as well. I really wouldn't want Br2 to make a Zelda game because Flagship/Capcom have proven that they can make a Zelda game that is faithful to what Nintendo originally created. The LOZ games are about the gameplay, item progression, dungeon-designs, and bosses but I fear that Br2 would forget some of that.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Alright, maybe extremely was the wrong word.

Gamerankings isn't really a system I would argue against. Their scores are based on opinions from many different sources, it's surely more reliable than reviews from a single site/mag.

I haven't read all the reviews, but IGN barely mention it being a remake and gave it a 7.

However I look at it, Zelda games shouldn't be handled by such a team.

 

[jarrod]

I thought Sword of Mana was okay... a bit buggy and rough around the edges but still great looking and pretty fun. Brownie Brown could've really used an extra few months to clean things up and add those single cart GB Player options but they did all right given the time constraints and budget. At least it didn't have the messed up auto-attacking that completely broke Seiken Densetsu 3.

 

[Idiot Member]

SD3 was limited by the auto-attacking, but the game wasn't broken, it was fun.

 

[jarrod]

SD3 was limited by the auto-attacking, but the game wasn't broken, it was fun.

I dunno... an ARPG where you get by in combat mainly by repeatedly pressing a single button sort of loses it's appeal. I think it's really the worst Mana game because of that, looks/sounds nice though.

 

[Idiot Member]

I definitely didn't like that aspect. It's weak sauce. But I digress. Other than the auto-attacking and weak magic that battle system is really good, not to mention the class change system.

 

[Azih]

Sword of Mana sucks. I mean in 2004 what the hell is their excuse for absolute shit brain dead partner A.I?

 

[Idiot Member]

The AI did suck in sword of mana, and has always imo been the weakness of the seiken densetsu series.

 

[Azih]

For me the A.I has killed every Seiken Densetsu game I've ever attempted.

Got quite far in both SNES games too. GBA one I stopped as soon as I got the partner

 

[Idiot Member]

For me the A.I has killed every Seiken Densetsu game I've ever attempted.

Got quite far in both SNES games too. GBA one I stopped as soon as I got the partner

LOL, that's like 10-15 minutes into the game =)

 

[SomeDude]

On a unrelated note, I'd like to see Alpha Dreams do a 2d Mario game.

 

[SantaC]

I haven't played Minish Cap

And yet you call it crap?

 

[Idiot Member]

quote me saying minish was crap.

 

[SantaC]

you talk about crappy Flagship games. How about playing their latest creation before writing them off?

Minish cap is a wonderful game btw. Just a little short.

 

[Swordian]

quote me saying minish was crap.

Ok.

minish was crap.

 

[Idiot Member]

you talk about crappy Flagship games. How about playing their latest creation before writing them off?

Minish cap is a wonderful game btw. Just a little short.

I never wrote them off, I simply said that the games I've played from them have been lackluster, and I would like to see another studio take a stab.

As I said I probably should play Minish Cap, after hearing such praise.

 

[Ironclad]

On a unrelated note, I'd like to see Alpha Dreams do a 2d Mario game.

Really? I would rather see a M & L : SS sequel.

 

[Azih]

LOL, that's like 10-15 minutes into the game =)

slight exaggeration , I stopped at the vampire boss, in that haunted house thing.

 

[Idiot Member]

That's a lot more understandable.

 

[0wn3d]

I absolutely hate the Capcom Zeldas.

Oracles was just a quick cash-in that reused pretty much everything from Link's Awakening DX. The overworlds were awful. The dungeons were straightforward. Terrible games. I forced myself to beat Seasons to see what the link between the games would be... I think you got an extra heart or something. Lame. After playing a bit of Ages I just got so pissed off and quick. People are so quit to say the CDi Zeldas are bad, but I personally think the Oracle games seriously challenge them for the worst Zeldas ever.

Four Swords was terrible too. Connectivity gimmick wasn't really needed. And it was 2D on the Gamecube! Why didn't they just steal the Wind Waker graphics instead of the Link to the Past graphics?? There was no overworld. It was 100% straightforward. Another cash-in using Zeldas name.

And now the Minish Cap? What do you guys find so charming about this game? Just because it is 2D? Not even 8 dungeons. That alone makes it worse all the other great Zeldas like Link's Awakening and Ocarina of Time. You can't freely explore the overworld because something is always blocking your path like a construction crew or soldiers... No freedom... totally straightforward. The dungeons *are* better than in Oracles, but still nothing special or memorable.

 

[Mama Smurf]

And now the Minish Cap? What do you guys find so charming about this game? Just because it is 2D? Not even 8 dungeons. That alone makes it worse all the other great Zeldas like Link's Awakening and Ocarina of Time. You can't freely explore the overworld because something is always blocking your path like a construction crew or soldiers... No freedom... totally straightforward. The dungeons *are* better than in Oracles, but still nothing special or memorable.

I prefer all the 3D Zeldas to the 2D Zeldas with the exception of MC which is up there with them somewhere, so no, not because it's just 2D.

At least 8 dungeons is the cut off point for quality or something all of a sudden? How many people have you heard say MM is the best Zelda? I hear it all the time, and that only has 4 dungeons. Now, despite liking the game a lot, one of my biggest complaints against that game was the lack of dungeons, but I didn't feel that with MC. While only 6 dungeons, I think the reason I didn't feel it hurt the quality was not only the fact that they were fantastic fun to go through, but the build up to the dungeons in the overworld often had similar puzzle and enemy elements as dungeons themselves.

Can't freely explore the overworld stright away? No, you can't. Played OoT lately? Can you get into Gerudo Valley straight away? How about the desert? Can you just walk straight out of the opening area? Did you manage to get up Death Mountain before completing other quests? This is nothing new to the Zelda series, and personally I love having areas restricted so I can get that thrill of exploring a new area that has opened up.

I disagree on the dungeons, but there's not much we can do about that, just opinions.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

And overall the games felt far more generic in general. I wasn't a huge fan of links awakening compared to LttP, but it was good for it's time. Why are they still using the same system that was behind even then?

What are you talking about them still doing this? Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons was essentially one hugeass game which used an upgrade of the upgraded Link's Awakening DX engine. 4 years ago.