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[WinFonda]

the more time i've put into Genji, the more i see his design focus to be this general assassin counter play out

his level 7 basically opens him up to counter mages and auto attackers, and with his W options he can be especially pointed towards heroes that do tons of micro damage like Tych, Tracer, Tass, Zarya and disintegrate Li Ming... Tych has fallen out of meta and Ming WoF is always an option, but Tracer is rising again with Varian nerfs, and honestly Tracer is one of the most OP heroes in the game if no one drafts around her, so this gives her another check which is good.. Genji can also chase down and harass stealth assassins like no tomorrow, and yeah Tracer aint safe either

the cool balance thing with genji is unlike other assassins, he struggles with tanks and high sustain heroes way more from what i've noticed - like he's still going to be near impossible to kill in the hands of a good player if there's not a lot of CC, but there's plenty of fights i don't think he can win... honestly Genji is quite a lot like Tracer in terms of his design end-goal, but he's got a much different kit that i think is more fun and potentially more rewarding

 

[scoobs]

I think Uther will destroy him. The stuns and his high health pool and armor make him a Genji slayer

 

[WinFonda]

I think Uther will destroy him. The stuns and his high health pool and armor make him a Genji slayer

lol yeah genji def has some counters, but none of em come out of the assassin pool. most of my early games with Genji did all have uther in them tho and ya he was not to fun to play around, especially being new to the hero

frankly out of a teamfight, it's prob a waste of time to targeting supports as genji without help

in a teamfight it's a little more moot since Genji is basically like Ming or Tracer, fishing for resets

 

[Dice]

If the new character isn't D.va there is no reason to make a big deal with a cinematic.

 

[protonium]

.

 

[scoobs]

pretty much nailed it right on the head. I would have talked a bit more about the unique maps and how different they all are from one another, because that's actually what I enjoy most about the game personally but you did a sufficient job.

I hope more people try the game out, its really in a great spot right now.

 

[Ketch]

I don't know. there's a lot of good things about dota and lol that aren't present in heroes. I think your list of reasons for liking hots is great, but I don't think that it's fair to say that dota and league are bad because they have things you don't like.

to me the best comparison has always been like the mario kart : forza, or NFL Blitz : Madden.

It doesn't make forza or madden bad, it's just that there's something to be said for playing the "for fun" version of a thing instead of the simulator version of a thing... and vice versa.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I really wanna save my gold and I only have around 13k but man does Cassia seem really, really freaking good.

I'm really tempted to cough it up for her.

My character lvl is 425 currently so I do wanna save until 2.0 but I really want Cassia.

 

[scoobs]

I really wanna save my gold and I only have around 13k but man does Cassia seem really, really freaking good.

I'm really tempted to cough it up for her.

My character lvl is 425 currently so I do wanna save until 2.0 but I really want Cassia.

Be strong. I believe in you.

I don't think she's that strong. Just play some Valla, she's better

 

[Ketch]

I really wanna save my gold and I only have around 13k but man does Cassia seem really, really freaking good.

I'm really tempted to cough it up for her.

My character lvl is 425 currently so I do wanna save until 2.0 but I really want Cassia.

she's not that good, and you'll get her free in a box.

 

[Kioshen]

Did I miss anything? I know some of y'all have played DotA2.

If you have played the three main MOBAs (LoL, Dota 2, HotS), which do you prefer?

After my quick exploratory MOBA crisis during the week-end, I think I land on this: HotS = DotA2 > LoL. DotA2's client is light years ahead of both of them but gameplay wise I think they both have merits. HotS streamlines its mechanics in a good amount of places to make it more like a video game than a job. I like the approach of making many battlegrounds to provide strategic depth but I never felt like they nailed the talent system ever. Very rarely does a hero have more than a viable build with a slight tweak here and there. I admire their dedication to it and many attempts at reworks to keep it up to date but still, I think it's still a sore spot for the game.

DotA2, on the other hand, keeps a single map but stacks on mechanics on it instead for strategic depth. The feeling of accomplishment is greater when you succeed at DotA I think. The subtle intricacies you can do to win a lane is very rewarding. The very fact that you can control your xp/gold income while impacting the opponent in a fast pace chess-like match is unique to it. There's something to be said when people can run away in fear from a 6 slotted Anti-Mage or Morphling. You can never replicate that in Heroes of the Storm ever. I also like the item system in DotA2 better but I don't think it would work in HotS. I do find silly when people keep pointing at Abathur or Cho'Gall for something unique which it is don't get me wrong but unique heroes also exist in other games like Invoker or Io. Those heroes can only exist in that game structure. Ironically, I have no idea what really exists in LoL but their recent champion announcement is puzzling. Why would you lock some champion powers behind a strict pairing but hopefully that works out for them.

All in all, I think both games succeeds at what they are attempting to do at their core which is collaboration in HotS and empowerment in DotA.

I really wanna save my gold and I only have around 13k but man does Cassia seem really, really freaking good.

I'm really tempted to cough it up for her.

My character lvl is 425 currently so I do wanna save until 2.0 but I really want Cassia.

Just wait until 2.0. There's really no rush to play her. With your account level, you'll probably get her from a loot box anyway when it launches next week. If anything, just hop on the 2.0 Beta, play three matches and you'll get enough space bucks to buy her and keep playing.

 

[Milly79]

Wait what famalie got banned?

 

[Kioshen]

Most people going into off-topic are eventually.

 

[Milly79]

We need to send scoobs there...

 

[brian!]

League and dota are both more intricate and strategic and dependent on mechanics, but hots is shorter so hots is the best

 

[protonium]

.

 

[Alur]

This deal with it story from John on CORE that touches on the HORSEPANTS thing and this game they all had is hilarious. The only persons it would've been more funny for the bug to happen to would be Garrett (for the raging) or Scott (for the utter confusion).

 

[brian!]

Dang i just lost a post but

Yeah didnt mean to driveby post my b

Dota and league include a lot of mechanics that hots either doesnt have or doesnt build on much (by design) including: vision (floor height, wards (and ensuing things like deep warding for map manipulation, counter-warding, escorted warding, alternative routes due to ward knowledge, invis revealing during fights, etc.), wave manipulation (exists in hots but way less important due to mounts/small map size), real economy (getting items and preventing the enemy from getting items, all mobas strats revolve around capitalistic hyper-exploitation of the map, but heroes has one real resource and low amounts of comeback via playing the map correct compared to the comeback from scoring a good fight when down lvls; conversely in lota economy and map manipulation is the name of the game), minions actually do stuff vs. hots where they ignore you unless you are the only thing left (meaning positioning actually matters), and so on. There are a lot of things to mention such as how hero base kits and items take advantage of each games unique mechanics (nightstalker w/ day/night cycle, summoner spells in league, etc.), how the shape of the map is more free (larger size makes the map more reactive and decisions more weighty; see jungler spending time at bot? Take his jungle or push a power play somewhere else or you're wasting time/resources), how the map obj system in hots is rigid (a mechanic that funnels players; dota/league have this as well in the shape of things like dragon, timed jungle camps, etc. but again it's more free and on the fly feeling). Cant really cover everything

Agree that denying/last hitting isnt compelling in of itself but the major key (bless) is how it affects the lane dance which hots doesnt have (in hots the exp range is ludicrously long and 1v1 kills in lane...really shouldnt happen). This means you get stuff like bush manipulation in league (to prevent lane ganks, to reset minion aggro) and jungle pulling in dota. Not to mention that yeah the lane dance is extremely compelling in of itself, and decisions are weighty (including but not limited to: teleporting accross the map reactively, playing the vision game, putting pressure on the lane to manipulate the jungler, and just general burden of all things coalescing vs. hots where you pretty much just use body numbers, smash a wave safely, and move on to the next one. Plus kills and deaths have much more impact in lota compared to hots which has a built-in exp comeback mechanic and in general low value for early k/d.


Being less intricate and having less things to consider and less agency isnt necesarily a negative tho, like some ppl like chess and some ppl like checkers. I prefer hots cuz i can kind of zone out and it's short/compelling enough for ~20 min, whereas in lota id prob have to put a lot more energy in. I watched a pro brood war match recently and holy shit they looked like they were going to die, def prefer a game like hots over starcraft (use map settings still da best tho).

Oh and holy shit not to mention comp building (mainly a dota strength, league can be cool w/ this but usually adheres to very top 5 hero style drafting like heroes) and the range of things to consider vs. heroes drafting. Both are based in need (do we need waveclear, do we need something to deal w/ x, do we need something to enable y), but the needs of lota consider a lot more due to the relation of the timing of power spikes and the more intricate map and mechanics. Plus more role fluidity; compare say maokai + what he can do w/ his base kit and itemization (top/mid/jungle/supp, tho iirc hes basically top these days since it's optimal vs. blizz's attempt with varian, like the whole concept of varian being a sneaky fluid pick has never held water not even once)

 

[Kioshen]

Invoker's unique but Io isn't? Io has a global (?) TP, a tether buff and a range adjustable AOE lightning shield? Saying one game has unique heroes doesn't mean that other games don't but Aba and Cho'Gall are unique in that you play them in fundamentally different ways.

DotA does have an amazing game client too. The in-game tournament spectating is great.

General comments that one game is more casual/in-depth/intricate/mechanically demanding/whatever doesn't add value without examples...

Well, I meant is unique in that he can't accomplish much by himself but empowers other to do things. Tethering, sharing of healing items, recall, temporary boosting damage ... ok, I've just described Lt. Morales so never mind. I dunno I just picked two off the top of my head but if I looked at the roster a bit better I'm sure I would find other heroes that aren't available in hots or wouldn't work at all inside their sandbox.

I was vaguer around the mechanics because I didn't have time to go in-depth. I was waiting for yet another progress bar so it was a quick drive by but tonight I could elaborate more if you'd like. I also need to take time and read Brian's post too.

====

I haven't finished listening to this week's CORE but that intro was godlike. Beau surpassed himself with nazeebro's intro.

 

[brian!]

My post is just text-vomit, i think we can all generally agree that league/dota has more going on and is more tight and less forgiving, but that these arent end-all attributes for a good game

Also kinda want to say the io/medic comparison is superficial, just as im sure league's introduction of pushing jungler camps and dota's introduction of talents are much more than different in practice compared to their respective iteration in hots. Support in dota is way more...supporty compared to supports in hots where they are pretty much sustainy teamfighters and post-fight patcheruppers

__
As an aside, someone said earlier said tychus was out of the meta (i thought so too w/ the range nerf), but apparently he's the shit right now and the buffs he got made his range nerf fine.

 

[Alur]

Looks like there are gonna be new ~20 hero bundles coming in 2.0. The link is currently broken but there's an image floating around on reddit of a couple of them.

Reddit sleuths say they are themed of course:

The 1st appears to be a mix of everything.
The 2nd has every healer in it, and most pseudo supports.
3rd is melees with a lot of tanks.
4th one seems to be mostly ranged dmg.

And another dude says some heroes are missing.

Here is a list of all the heroes not in one of the bundles in alphabetic order (please correct me if, I missed one):

Cassia
Cho'Gall
Genji
Gazlowe
Jaina
Murky
Probius
Sgt. Hammer
Tyrande
Zagara

 

[Ketch]

The missing heroes will be bundled together in the "shitters bundle".


Also, @ league/Dota/hots comparison, all the he shit that Brian brings up isn't even all inclusive there's so much more going on in dota that people called league dumbed down by comparison and then hots sits somewhere further down that spectrum. I don't mind the comparisons, but when people try to say that hots has just as much depth as the other two it's just a giant red flag to me that they have no idea what they're talking about. But, it doesn't even matter that those games are more complex, that doesn't automatically make them better. Just like even though I'm sure dwarf fortress is fuckin amazing, it's not for everybody, I certainly don't have time for that shit and it doesn't make it a better game then sim city or whatever.

 

[Maledict]

So the new bundles are free, and you get to pick one next week. That is totally unexpected, well played Blizzard.

And Ketch, re Dota. obviously, Dota is more complicated. Wildly so. In most areas, it requires greater knowledge and understanding than HotS. I would say there are some areas where it doesn't - team work being the main one. You can't carry like you can in Dota and Lol, and team co-ordination is more important.

As you say though, complexity isn't automatically better. One of the things I like about HotS is that it got rid of all the stupid "anti-logic" things built into MOBAs that are legacies of the original game.

 

[Alur]

So the new bundles are free, and you get to pick one next week. That is totally unexpected, well played Blizzard.

Ehhh, I think either you or myself needs to read that again. It doesn't look free to me at all.

Each bundle contains 20 Heroes, and has its own unique theme. The best part? We’re giving you enough free gems to unlock the Mega Bundle of your choice once Heroes of the Storm 2.0 goes live in your region after April 25!

The way I'm reading it is that 1000 gems you had pegged for something else, now you can use it on this if you like. But it's not like you're getting extra. It's just simply that you can use the 1000 everyone is getting to get a bundle.

It's still a hell of a leg up for new players, so kudos indeed.

 

[kirblar]

The way they're doing it is really good for established players since the bundles will scale. And of course, it's an insane deal for newbies at $10 (or less) each.

 

[Alur]

Yeah, you will win no matter what.

If you don't have many heroes - 1000 gems (or maybe it's 100) gets you 20 when the rumor was a new hero was 750 I believe?

If you do have a good number of heroes, it'll still be a dynamic bundle and you can maybe dip into two bundles. Apparently you can't ever get another one. Just the one. That makes sense, though.

If you already have all the heroes, you can simply just keep the gems.

The little text at the bottom implies they are gifting another 100 gems that you can use for these bundles:

*Limited time offer. Mega Bundles will be available following the launch of Heroes of the Storm 2.0 in your region, lasting until May 22, 2017. All players who log in to Heroes of the Storm during that timeframe will automatically receive 100 Gems, which can be used to permanently unlock one (1) Mega Bundle of their choosing. Choose wisely! Once you have unlocked one of the four Mega Bundles described above, the other three will become unavailable.

Seems very odd, though. We know they are giving us 1000. Why not mention it as 1100 at the time, or is that just a typo?

 

[Lamptramp]

Hey all, I posted a similar question in the thread talking about the free bundles but thought I'd try in here as well.

Total MOBA noob (and if I'm honest not a lover of PvP/shouty communities) but some friends and I were looking for something to try that's FTP and good. I enjoy watching people play HOTS and we considered maybe dipping a toe in as far as I know you can play against bots to get the hang without getting shouted at for ruining someones day. The free characters seems to be a good a time as any to try.

Having said that I tried the tutorial the other week then a few minutes in a bot game and found the controls very difficult to get the hang of, is it just one of those things you need to stick with and it gets better, or is there a preferred "Noob friendly" setup people recommend. I'm OK with either it would just be good to know

Cheers!

 

[thekillermuffin]

Yeah, you will win no matter what.

If you don't have many heroes - 1000 gems gets you 20 when the rumor was a new hero was 750 I believe?

If you do have a good number of heroes, it'll still be a dynamic bundle and you can maybe dip into two bundles. Apparently you can't ever get another one. Just the one. That makes sense, though.

If you already have all the heroes, you can simply just keep the gems.

The Mega Hero Bundles are 100 (not 1,000) gems, and you get to choose which bundle you want. You're granted 100 gems automatically to choose your bundle. This is separate from the 1,000 gems you get from hitting player level 5.

EDIT: Looked like you edited during my clarification

 

[kirblar]

If you already own all the heroes, it's an extra 100 gems. Which is nice I guess.

 

[Maledict]

Yeah, you will win no matter what.

If you don't have many heroes - 1000 gems (or maybe it's 100) gets you 20 when the rumor was a new hero was 750 I believe?

If you do have a good number of heroes, it'll still be a dynamic bundle and you can maybe dip into two bundles. Apparently you can't ever get another one. Just the one. That makes sense, though.

If you already have all the heroes, you can simply just keep the gems.

The little text at the bottom implies they are gifting another 100 gems that you can use for these bundles:



Seems very odd, though. We know they are giving us 1000. Why not mention it as 1100 at the time, or is that just a typo?

No, it's a separate thing. You get 1000 back dated for reaching level 5, as an existing player. You then get 100 for this special offer which is enough to buy one mega bundle. New players don't get the 1000 games until they hit level 5. and you can only buy one mega bundle, for the month duration it's up.

 

[Alur]

Having said that I tried the tutorial the other week then a few minutes in a bot game and found the controls very difficult to get the hang of, is it just one of those things you need to stick with and it gets better, or is there a preferred "Noob friendly" setup people recommend. I'm OK with either it would just be good to know

Cheers!

There's not really much you can do with the controls. It's pretty standard fare across all mobas (Q W E R for abilities) and clicking for movement. If you're talking about how they deploy, you can adjust it to use Quick Cast (Ie: as soon as you hit the button the skill goes off wherever your mouse is currently at) or Quick Cast on release and so forth.

What issues were you having with the controls exactly?

No, it's a separate thing. You get 1000 back dated for reaching level 5, as an existing player. You then get 100 for this special offer which is enough to buy one mega bundle. New players don't get the 1000 games until they hit level 5. and you can only buy one mega bundle, for the month duration it's up.

Kind of a weird way to do it, but whatever works I guess. Another reason why it's beneficial for them to switch to space bux over real currency.

 

[Maledict]

I'll be getting the assassin bundle purely because it has Valeera, and she's the only one of the 7 heroes I don't own that I actually want. time to be toxic in quick match!

 

[KevMan1815]

That bundle thing is pretty awesome. I haven't really looked to decide which to get, but this is getting me more hyped for 2.0. I haven't really played much outside of brawls since they announced the update, but I'm ready to go all in right after I get back from vacation next Friday!

 

[Altairre]

Is Nova in one of those bundles? Oh shit...

 

[Lamptramp]

There's not really much you can do with the controls. It's pretty standard fare across all mobas (Q W E R for abilities) and clicking for movement. If you're talking about how they deploy, you can adjust it to use Quick Cast (Ie: as soon as you hit the button the skill goes off wherever your mouse is currently at) or Quick Cast on release and so forth.

What issues were you having with the controls exactly?

Honestly I can't quite remember, I got the concept of the QWER etc and right clicking but something just didn't seem to click (no pun) about moving the camera and moving about. It's probably coming to it from absolutely no experience of the genre and me just being daft. If its just a case of making the effort to learn then that's OK.
In fact I'm re-installing now I'll have another try and see if I can put it into words, thanks Alur.

 

[Alur]

Honestly I can't quite remember, I got the concept of the QWER etc and right clicking but something just didn't seem to click (no pun) about moving the camera and moving about. It's probably coming to it from absolutely no experience of the genre and me just being daft. If its just a case of making the effort to learn then that's OK.
In fact I'm re-installing now I'll have another try and see if I can put it into words, thanks Alur.

Maybe it was just the camera itself? I forget how the game introduces it, but most people suggest you need to play with the camera unlocked. However, if you've never played a MOBA before it can feel really strange...and it can certainly be hard to keep track of yourself in the middle of a teamfight.

If that's the issue, you can do one of two things. Holding spacebar will keep the camera centered on your hero when you need it, and you can simply release it when you don't need it. You can also hit (L) and play with the camera locked til you get used to the rest of the game, and then attempt to get used to an unlocked camera after. I've played this game for three years now and I still play with a locked camera on some heroes (fite me MOBA pros). Sometimes it's just easier that way.

 

[brian!]

Incoming patch wont include uther and ressurect rework

 

[Ketch]

I've played this game for three years now and I still play with a locked camera on some heroes (fite me MOBA pros). Sometimes it's just easier that way.

which heroes?

Spoiler

inb4 abathur

 

[Milly79]

Space bar almost always on is life

 

[Alur]

which heroes?

Spoiler

inb4 abathur

u rite it was abathur

 

[Kioshen]

I'm quite puzzled as to why you would do that on specific heroes but whatever works I guess. I wasn't using quick cast for the longest while so what do I know.

 

[Lamptramp]

Maybe it was just the camera itself? I forget how the game introduces it, but most people suggest you need to play with the camera unlocked. However, if you've never played a MOBA before it can feel really strange...and it can certainly be hard to keep track of yourself in the middle of a teamfight.

If that's the issue, you can do one of two things. Holding spacebar will keep the camera centered on your hero when you need it, and you can simply release it when you don't need it. You can also hit (L) and play with the camera locked til you get used to the rest of the game, and then attempt to get used to an unlocked camera after. I've played this game for three years now and I still play with a locked camera on some heroes (fite me MOBA pros). Sometimes it's just easier that way.

Thanks, I just came off a bot match and I think you're right its the camera as much as anything else, it seems so easy when you're watching other people play it. Almost everything else seems OK now I come to try again, I get a bit flustered when things start happening and lose keys etc but that's more my ineptitude rather than a fault in the game.
Considering how much I actually watch I thought I had a reasonable grasp on the basics of the game but when its all happening in front of you it seems really difficult to know where to go and what skills you should grab in an instant. Again down to practice I suspect.
I also suspect I maybe shouldn't have picked Tyrande as my starter hero, I'm not 100% sure I know what I'm doing

I think I may try a couple more with a different Hero and keep the camera locked for now til I get a little more confidence.

Cheers again

 

[Kioshen]

Tyrande has a lot of skill shots and is very intensive positionally so it might be overwhelming for you. As long as you keep at it, it'll eventually become second nature so don't worry. If you want to try a very simple hero mechanically you could give Raynor a shot. He doesn't have a very high skill cap but is a very relaxing hero to play and learn.

 

[Lamptramp]

Tyrande has a lot of skill shots and is very intensive positionally so it might be overwhelming for you. As long as you keep at it, it'll eventually become second nature so don't worry. If you want to try a very simple hero mechanically you could give Raynor a shot. He doesn't have a very high skill cap but is a very relaxing hero to play and learn.

I'd seen as much, though Raynor wasn't a choice as a free unlock when I first tried (or if he was I didn't notice). I just tried a bot match with Valla and that went a lot more smoothly in terms of knowing what I was doing.

Cheers for the advice guys

 

[Alur]

If you aren't account level 5 you can use someone's recruit a friend link to get Sylvanas, Raynor, and a free stimpack if you'd like. I can link you mine or someone else who still needs the referrals can give you theirs.

 

[Lamptramp]

If you aren't account level 5 you can use someone's recruit a friend link to get Sylvanas, Raynor, and a free stimpack if you'd like. I can link you mine or someone else who still needs the referrals can give you theirs.

Second round with Valla went as well, still finding it difficult but I figure the right Hero helps in the early days...

And only level 3 ATM so whatever you reccomend

 

[Zackat]

Man that 20 hero bundle is amazing for new players. I have most, but I imagine that will get a lot of people to try the game.

New OT for 2.0 or nah? Idk the parameters on something like that.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I saw the free bundle thread, said that new players should pick the bundle with Chromie.

 

[KevMan1815]

I saw the free bundle thread, said that new players should pick the bundle with Chromie.

Haha, I just saw that post and immediately thought of scoobs.

 

[Ketch]

u rite it was abathur

I knew it.