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[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

PlatinumGames vice president Hideki Kamiya has said he thinks Japan should be proud of the term ‘JRPG’, amid fresh claims it could be considered discriminatory to Japanese developers.

"When you look at God of War, you have Kratos," Kamiya said. "He's muscly, he's huge, he's bald, he looks really kick-ass, basically. So we thought, 'okay, we have games like this which are becoming more popular globally, could we create something similar from a Japanese standpoint?'

"We discussed this internally, and the conclusion was that no, we obviously can't, because this is something that's not unique to us as Japanese creators. So in order to make an action game that would stand out we needed to create something that expressed our unique sensitivities as Japanese creators, and Bayonetta was a result of that.

"When you look at Bayonetta as a character, she doesn't look strong like Kratos, she doesn't look like she could take on these massive demons, but she was very unique in the way she was created, in the way we view action game heroes, from a unique Japanese viewpoint.

He added: "So when it comes to the term 'JRPG', this is something that ties into this – these are RPG games that, in a sense, only Japanese creators can make with their unique sensitivity when it comes to creating these experiences.

"I think it's certainly something that should be celebrated moving forward, and someone should actually aim to make a 'king of JRPGs' game to express that. As Japanese game creators, we're very proud of the actual term JRPG."

We asked Kamiya if he'd be offended if people started using the term 'J-Action' to describe games like Bayonetta.

"On the contrary, I'd be very proud if you used that term," he replied. "It's more focused than the broad genre of action, and it highlights the unique elements that only Japanese developers can make. So yeah, if you wanted to do that, go for it, we'd be proud more than anything else."

Although Kamiya has no issues with the term JRPG, there's another term that's commonly used in the west that he's clearly less happy with.

When VGC asked him about his love of retro games, he replied: "First of all, I don't like the word 'retro game'. I'm obviously not a native English speaker so it might be something I'm interpreting from a Japanese perspective, but hearing the word 'retro' from a Japanese viewpoint, suggests more of a "fad" brought back from a past era and reskinned for the current era.

"So I prefer the terms 'old games' or 'classic games', because they show more respect to those games of the past.

"I love games from all generations, and just because the game is 'retro' doesn't mean it's retro, because it's the same game that existed years or decades ago – it still exists and it's still playable and it's still an experience that's very unique in its own right – so there's really no need to refer to it as 'retro' because it still does have special memories and experiences that stay with you after all these years. That's why I like to use the term 'classic games'."

I recommend reading the full article on VGC before engaging in the thread:

Hideki Kamiya thinks Japan should be proud of ‘JRPG’ and wants to use ‘J-Action’ | VGC

The PlatinumGames exec addresses recent criticism of the term, which has been accused of being discriminatory…

www.videogameschronicle.com

 

[Portugeezer]

I don't know if they feel different enough in the way JRPG feels, even then, we call certain games musou when it's that musou garbage action.

I understand his point about "retro" though, classic makes more sense as he said.

 

[DenSho]

Eh, no, he's wrong. Some other forum told me the "J" in "JRPG" is othering and racist. How dare he.

 

[Roman Empire]

As long as they keep making good games, I don't give a shit what they will call the genre.

 

[Mr Hyde]

Since when is the term JRPG discrimination? It stands for Japanese role playing games, a pretty accurate description. Have people become so detached from reality that everything is considered discriminatory and racist now? Or am I just getting old?

 

[Synless]

Discriminatory? really? whoever says that is a cuck.

 

[[Sigma]]

That's all fine Kamiya but where is Project G.G?

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

tfw you look up why people think the term jrpg is discriminatory and a polygon article is the first thing to pop up

 

[Isa]

Good. Intersectional marxism inserts itself in everything intentionally with the express intent to divide and conquer. Oppressors and all that lot. Not saying that people and groups of all types that abuse or subjugate don't or haven't existed or continue to exist. I'm of the mindset that Japan has a lengthy and storied history in entertainment much less the videogame industry, and have developed a prestigious reputation(which some dislike greatly for various reasons). If anything, and its opening a different can of worms with a set of people, is the claim that Jrpg can only mean anime style games, or cliched Final Fantasy style games. For me personally I use Japanese Role Playing Game to refer to a game that has rpg mechanics that was made in Japan. Not western and inspired by, not Korean or Chinese etc. It can take any form(turn-based, action, strategy etc) or artstyle. FromSoft for example russles a few jimmies and I suspect it is due to people experiencing cognitive dissonance when liking something more to their tastes, but disliking the association to other Japanese games that predominantly utilize different themes and stereotypes. Rooted in insecurities essentially.

His opinion in regards to retro is fair. Retro denotes a throwback, more of a fad as he said. Something stylistic to reference something that once was, whereas at the time those things were the norm. And again to my point made in other threads throughout the years, the fact that there is even a label for catagorizing Jrpgs, unlike the generalized term of western rpg is profound and frankly very impressive. That little island nation boasts so much imagination and brainpower, not to mention sheer creativity that its arguably competing with the world for decades says quite a lot. Now I know that not everybody has had access to the same tech and resources to cultivate the skillsets and interests required to build up a game development industry, but damn if it isn't impressive. And all this time later I'm still excited for upcoming Jrpgs as well as enjoy watching documentaries on Japanese game development and Jrpg history.

At its root the claim that Jrpg is discriminatory is by grifters looking to lump their works(or those they like) in with the games that developed such a legacy. I suspect it also coincides with those that dislike the traditionalism that is displayed in many eastern works. Beauty, femininity, heterosexuality, traditional gender roles. Even when those roles are reversed, or some unique characters or situations are presented, it is not the norm, and that goes against the cultural revolution that's been taking place in the west these past few years if not decades.

 

[GrayChild]

Based Kamiya.

 

[Rentahamster]

amid fresh claims it could be considered discriminatory to Japanese developers.

Who the hell is saying that? First time I'm hearing of it.

Is this another "one person on Twitter says something so let's make a story about it" thing?

 

[The Cockatrice]

Who the hell is saying that? First time I'm hearing of it.

Is this another "one person on Twitter says something so let's make a story about it" thing?

Earlier this year, Final Fantasy 16 producer Naoki Yoshida told Skill Up that he wasn’t a big fan of the ‘JRPG’ term at all, saying that in the past, it felt like a discriminatory term with negative connotations.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Who the hell is saying that? First time I'm hearing of it.

Is this another "one person on Twitter says something so let's make a story about it" thing?

The usual suspects (certain members of resetera dot com, polygon, kotaku, etc.).

 

[The Cockatrice]

The usual suspects (certain members of resetera dot com, polygon, kotaku, etc.).

Nah, not in this case.

 

[SlimySnake]

Yeah but Bayonetta isnt a JRPG. Its a straight up action game. Where is the role playing in it?

 

[Bloobs]

In before Kojima claims J-Strand

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

He's right, they should be. Not so sure about "JAction" though.

 

[diffusionx]

JRPG is a perfectly valid term and represents the way the genre evolved in Japan vs. USA/Europe. Dragon Quest was conceptualized as, literally, a Japanese RPG - a game, for Japanese people, inspired by American RPGs like Ultima and Wizardry. Those were games that were rooted in the grandfather of all RPGs, D&D. Yet after DQ, the genre split in half, where the west made RPGs that were continued to be rooted in D&D whereas Japanese ones had their roots in Dragon Quest. Compare Dragon Quest XI to Baldurs Gate 3, both recent titles, both RPGs, TOTALLY DIFFERENT. You can trace the difference to that split.

The people making these claims are just not serious people and need to be ignored.

 

[Fbh]

It's interesting that back in the day he saw the characters and tone as the main difference between his games and western action franchises like God of War.
While arguably these days the biggest difference is that Bayonetta is still very gameplay focused while God of War has become a story heavy cinematic sad dad simulator.

Since when is the term JRPG discrimination? It stands for Japanese role playing games, a pretty accurate description. Have people become so detached from reality that everything is considered discriminatory and racist now? Or am I just getting old?

In an interview Yoshi P basically said that when the term first showed up he and others saw it as derogatory, because it was basically compartmentalizing the work of japanese devs. His argument never made that much sense to me, and I don't remember JRPG ever being used as a negative, but his point was basically that he saw himself as just making "RPG's" not "JRPG's".

Which is kinda Ironic when FFXVI basically stripped down all the RPG elements and barely qualifies as one (if at all)

 

[BootsLoader]

In Japan, the kid that is not eating, getting his ass kicked every day is the strongest kid through supernatural powers that emerge when kid screams “aaaaauuhhfdhhgdaaaa” loudly.

 

[gaming_again]

Wait. What. Discriminatory? LOL

 

[JimboJones]

In an interview Yoshi P basically said that when the term first showed up he and others saw it as derogatory, because it was basically compartmentalizing the work of japanese devs. His argument never made that much sense to me, and I don't remember JRPG ever being used as a negative, but his point was basically that he saw himself as just making "RPG's" not "JRPG's".

Which is kinda Ironic when FFXVI basically stripped down all the RPG elements and barely qualifies as one (if at all)

There was definitely a time from about 2007 to about 2013 where a lot of Japanese developers where having a really rough time going to HD consoles.
Even had game devs like Phil Fish saying all Japanese developed games sucked and I think a lot of people held that opinion as western RPGs where becoming quite popular on home consoles then, plus FF13 was sort of the tentpole console JRPG at that time..not the best look.
Maybe that's what he is referring to when he says people used it in a negative connotation.

 

[SmokedMeat]

There’s nothing wrong with the jrpg term, but obviously the wet blankets are going to cry about it.

It’s a style of role playing game. You say JRPG I have a vision in my mind. Just like WRPG, CRPG, and ARPG.

J-action though…sounds weird. But there’s certainly a difference with Japanese action games and western action games.

 

[Hendrick's]

 

[Klosshufvud]

It was always a stupid statement by Yoshi-P, alongside his many other statements meant to justify FF16's design. Kamiya is right that whenever the Japanese attempt to ape westerners, they fail. They have to embrace what they're good and unique at. The copycat game is a losing game.

 

[Kakax11]

He ruined the budget of Scalebound

 

[Evil Calvin]

PlatinumGames vice president Hideki Kamiya has said he thinks Japan should be proud of the term ‘JRPG’, amid fresh claims it could be considered discriminatory to Japanese developers.







I recommend reading the full article on VGC before engaging in the thread:

Hideki Kamiya thinks Japan should be proud of ‘JRPG’ and wants to use ‘J-Action’ | VGC

The PlatinumGames exec addresses recent criticism of the term, which has been accused of being discriminatory…

www.videogameschronicle.com

How about J-Ack'd games

 

[Hudo]

Discriminatory? really? whoever says that is a cuck.

I think Yoshi-P was the one who was crying about the term "JRPG" in some interview before FF XVI's release.

 

[MayauMiao]

JRPG is racist? What is this, 2022?

To me the term means RPG with Japanese centric theme, from the wonderful artwork to the solid game mechanic.

 

[MagiusNecros]

WRPG has a specific style just like JRPG has a specific style. I don't see a lot of negatives to glean from that.

Yoshi P tends to make a lot of stupid statements. All he really said is he doesn't like the term JRPG. More of an opinion not supported by any arguments. In order to know what he doesn't like about the term he should probably explain it...which he really doesn't.

He gets a lot of clout because of how popular FFXIV is and some take what he says too seriously.

But maybe he doesn't like the term JRPG because he can't live up to the genre himself given what he is known for is FFXIV and FFXVI and his most recent game is devoid of anything remotely related to a JRPG and FFXIV is lacking in some areas as well.

 

[lh032]

Since when is the term JRPG discrimination? It stands for Japanese role playing games, a pretty accurate description. Have people become so detached from reality that everything is considered discriminatory and racist now? Or am I just getting old?

Resetera:

 

[Bring Back Scalebound]

I can see where Yoshi-P is coming from, but I agree with Kamiya.

I personally never used the term "JRPG" in a dismissive or derogatory way... It always seemed like a accurate description of a RPG with Japanese sensibilities. When it comes to game design, characters, themes, so on...

Western devs wouldn't put out RPGs like Persona, Disgaea, Final Fantasy, any Shin Megami Tensei game, so on.

And beyond the RPG genre, Resident Evil 2 Remake, for example, is quite Japanese. Which is not as apparent if you aren't familiar with Japanese media.

It's filled with sensibilities and nuances that western devs wouldn't be able to or wouldn't want to replicate. In its gameplay design, in its character design, plot and dialogue, representation of Americans, the more "out there" themes, so on...

And in my opinion, "quite Japanese" is not an insult. It CAN be used as one, 100%, but I don't think most people do. They mostly use it as a descriptor. A positive one at that, cuz A LOT of people love Japanese games.

 

[Wildebeest]

Seems like squeenix are always being crybabies about something or other.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

There was definitely a time from about 2007 to about 2013 where a lot of Japanese developers where having a really rough time going to HD consoles.
Even had game devs like Phil Fish saying all Japanese developed games sucked and I think a lot of people held that opinion as western RPGs where becoming quite popular on home consoles then, plus FF13 was sort of the tentpole console JRPG at that time..not the best look.
Maybe that's what he is referring to when he says people used it in a negative connotation.

There was definitely a time when games like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Fallout 3, The Witcher etc were getting tons of mainstream attention, while at the same time JRPGs kinda shit the bed.

DQ and FF hadn’t made the leap to HD yet. Series like Suikoden/Breath of Fire/Lunar/Seiken Densetsu/Grandia either went handheld/mobile or committed seppuku. The few next gen JRPGs we did get were mostly mediocre cringey weeb trash (Infinite Undiscovery, Enchanted Arms, Blue Dragon, Last Remnant, Star Ocean 4).

Many JRPG fans were extremely butthurt seeing JRPGs not receiving the same prestige and interest as WRPGs, and in fact some of them still carry that persecution complex with them to this day.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

I think Yoshi-P was the one who was crying about the term "JRPG" in some interview before FF XVI's release.

He had his chance and XVI was trash so opinion ignored. Now swiftly moving on with the future JRPG releases.

 

[SublimeCorruptor]

Time to admit that JRPGs aren't actually RPGs. It's just too late to give them an accurate name.
It's always been a misnomer that has only become more confused and controversial as the definition gets diluted and twisted.
It's like when people describe tactics games as strategy or srpgs.

Remember where RPGs came from.

 

[Majukun]

don't see why they should not be proud of it...westernification, or at least an attempt at that, already happened and failed, people like japan's flavour of games and there's no reason why they should be ashamed of their heritage.

in terms of j action, i don't know if you can consider that kind of action game a japan exclusuve when games like a god of war exist (even if several times less refined)

 

[kiphalfton]

As long as they keep making good games, I don't give a shit what they will call the genre.

That infers they have good consistency though...

 

[SirTerry-T]

 

[Valonquar]

J-LastGenEngines

 

[Hudo]

I kinda want a poster of this, lmao.

 

[FearlessBelgian]

Yoshi-P frequents too many woke Westerners in my humble opinion...


J-RPG has never been pejorative, on the contrary, it's often a sign of quality and of a genre different from Western RPGs... But then, coming from a guy who's made a game that has nothing to envy the worst Western action games, nothing surprises me... FFXVI isn't even an RPG, it's a pure action game...

 

[Clear]

Yoshi-P frequents too many woke Westerners in my humble opinion...


J-RPG has never been pejorative, on the contrary, it's often a sign of quality and of a genre different from Western RPGs... But then, coming from a guy who's made a game that has nothing to envy the worst Western action games, nothing surprises me... FFXVI isn't even an RPG, it's a pure action game...

I support both interpretations because its a matter of perspective.

If you're looking to create something with global appeal you might find it restricting to be bound to the traditions and tropes of older Japanese titles.

On the other hand if you feel strongly that those same tropes are something you wish to carry forwards in your work its right and proper to embrace those traditions including its sub-genre naming conventions.

The problem here is expecting every Japanese creative to have the same viewpoint because they are Japanese. Which is retarded, and kinda racist to tell the truth.

Note: not calling out anyone here specifically, just criticizing the position of treating all creators who live in the same country or culture interchangably. Thanks.

 

[March Climber]

To expand on The Cockatrice 's post (and add much needed context), here is what Yoshida fully said:

Naoki Yoshida Is Not a Fan of the Term 'JRPG'

"It wasn't a compliment to a lot of developers in Japan."

www.pushsquare.com

In an interview with SkillUp, who travelled to Japan to speak to the senior development team, Yoshida was asked how JRPGs have advanced compared to action games. According to the interviewer, Yoshida was visibly uncomfortable with the phrase.

Localisation director Koji Fox explained that "one thing [Yoshida] wants to get across is that when we create games, we don't go into them thinking we are creating JRPGs, we are just creating RPGs. The term JRPG is used by western media rather than users and media in Japan".

Yoshida goes on to say (as translated by Fox) that some Japanese developers don't like the term, explaining that "this is going to depend on who you ask, but there was a time when this term first appeared 15 years ago, and for us as developers the first time we heard it, it was like a discriminatory term. As though we were being made fun of for creating these games, and so for some developers, the term JRPG can be something that will maybe trigger bad feelings because of what it was in the past."

Continuing, Yoshida states that "it wasn't a compliment to a lot of developers in Japan. We understand that recently, JRPG has better connotations and it's being used as a positive, but we still remember the time when it was used as a negative."

Logically, his gripe kind of adds up. Most western media does not call European RPGs 'EuroRPG', they are just called RPG or WRPG. From Japan's perspective, every other country gets to enjoy the label 'RPG' but them, because they were separated early on in gaming in an odd way, simply because of their point of origin. What makes this even weirder is when you look up eastern region games like 'Genshin Impact' and 'Honkai Star Rail' those are classified as RPG and Turn based RPG, even though from a casual western perspective they might as well be inseparable from the term 'JRPG' and the look of anime, due to their outward appearance. The fact that Korean and Chinese studios can get away with enjoying the RPG label, but Japanese games can't escape the JRPG label, is quite interesting

Unless we have an 80s japan historian on GAF, it seems like many here will simply dismiss this as...well, you can see the above posts, when this has nothing to do with western media or "woke-isms", because well...it's Japan lol.

 

[daclynk]

 

[Yumi]

Shit, I already liked Kamiya, now I think I love him. Really well said, and great work on the translators part too.

 

[The Fuzz damn you!]

“Japaction” definitely rolls off the tongue easier, but might be a little more… problematic.

 

[daclynk]

Yeah but Bayonetta isnt a JRPG. Its a straight up action game. Where is the role playing in it?

he didnt say Bayo was JRPG

 

[Mediocre Arachno-Lad]

I don't know if they feel different enough in the way JRPG feels

They sure do. I think we already commonly distinguish japanese action games from the western ones, we just don't have a label for it.
There's nothing quite like DMC or MGR in the west.
In fact, DMC vs DmC might be the best litmus test for it.
They don't look like each other, play like each other, paced like each other, or tell the story like each other.
Japanese one has a goofy-ass story and highly technical gameplay. It's all combat and combat accessories with short flashy cutscenes in-between.
Western one has a tryhard story with its gameplay streamlined to oblivion. Cinematic walks, cinematic non-combat gameplay sequences.

 

[Fbh]

There was definitely a time from about 2007 to about 2013 where a lot of Japanese developers where having a really rough time going to HD consoles.
Even had game devs like Phil Fish saying all Japanese developed games sucked and I think a lot of people held that opinion as western RPGs where becoming quite popular on home consoles then, plus FF13 was sort of the tentpole console JRPG at that time..not the best look.
Maybe that's what he is referring to when he says people used it in a negative connotation.

Yeah that era was rather rough for a lot of japanese devs. Though I'd argue JRPG's didn't do that poorly with games like Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia and Valkyria Chronicles getting a good reception from critics and users.

To me it seems like he just takes issue with the fact that devs from other parts of the world basically get to make "RPG's" while the RPG's made in japan all get put into a separate category, as if they were all the same or there wasn't much variety between them. Maybe he seems comments like "I don't like JRPG's" and he think it's unfair someone would write off a bunch of different games just because they are RPG's made in Japan.

But then again I still don't think it ever really had a negative connotation. Also these days it's more of a separate genre because many people don't consider games like Dark Souls to be JRPG's while it's hard to describe other games like Chained Echoes (made in Germany) or Sea of Stars (made in Canada) as anything but JRPG's