ToyMachine228
Member
My two personal favorites are Alexander Hamilton and General Patton.
History Buffs: who is the greatest American?
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Crag Dweller
aka kindbudmaster
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861.
Sathsquatch
Member
The point about Lincoln isn't exactly true. Lincoln did not want to free the slaves if it meant destroying the Union, and he would not have freed them if the war had ended quickly. Nonetheless, the Republican party and Lincoln opposed Slavery as part of their political platform. That's one of the main reasons that Lincoln's election triggered the civil war.whytemyke said:
:lol :lol :lolMatlock said:
No, that just isn't true. Lincoln tried everything he could do to avoid freeing the slaves, including giving them free passage back to Africa. Lincoln's only impetus for freeing the slaves was to induce Southern blacks from fighting alongside the Confederate army and to fuck up all sorts of logistical stuff in the South, from food lines to clothing to weapons and munitions. Eliminate the people doing all that work, and you can incredibly hinder the supply lines. It was a completely political move... so I guess if you want to look at it as one of those "ends justify the means" type deals, you could say it was good, but there definitely wasn't any great moral justification behind his actions.sathsquatch said:
Not to mention he also put one of the most vile war criminals in American history into power-- Sherman. Remember that whole "March to the Atlantic" thing? Lincoln was NOT a great man and, in my personal opinion, is only as revered as he is because of luck (Lee was stupid for trying to take on the army in Gettysburg... he should have listened to Longstreet and just marched on Washington instead of trying to flex his muscle in Pennsylvania for no real reason) and not any great leadership qualities on his behalf.
Though, I do admit, whoever wrote his speeches was a phenomenal writer.
teruterubozu
Member
Too many white men with wigs here:
MLK, biatch.
MLK, biatch.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
okay, probably Franklin, Washington or Lincoln. Or at least the case can be made that they make up both the pros and some cons of what the ideal American would be.
whytemyke said:
You are the one that is incorrect. Abe Lincoln was opposed to slavery, and in particular the spread of slavery all his life. But it is silly to believe that he could have realisticly come in and freed them from the start of his presidency without totally destroying the union.
When Lincoln finally did take office, the Union was already falling apart due to Southern fears about what he might do. But a number of border states still tenuously remained (Maryland, Kentucky, and others). If Lincoln had chosen to make a blanket Emancipation statement at this time he would have instantly lost these states (and the capital as a result), and the Union would never have been salvaged. So he was patient, and waited till the political climate was more favorable (and the Army was in stronger control in the border states).
Was it political? Of course it was - any choice a President makes has to take the political situation into consideration. But Lincoln always wanted to free the slaves, and in the end he did so, even if he had to make many half-measures in the meantime. On top of doing the seemingly impossible task of holding the Union together, this makes him a quite remarkable president indeed.
picking one is rather foolish, but i would have to err on Washington. his leadership and rather daft political mind saved the nation and established the new federal government when it so easily could've folded again. if i could i would pick the leaders of the entire revolutionary era, however.
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
Trust-buster, environmentalist, and progressive. However he was a true asskicker, an explorer, and still gave out a speech after someone shot him.
The only reason he was opposed to slavery, was because of the economic impact it had on industrialization in the northern states. He didn't give a fuck morally about slavery and only used it as a springboard to gain the moral high ground in the US Civil War, hence why he didn't call for emancipation until the war had already started and only really vouched his career as marginalizing slavery to the south.Bregor said:
He didn't wait until the political climate was more favorable. He sent troops against his own states at Ft. Sumter and once they reacted as ANY OTHER STATE WOULD at having an army they consider foreign on their own soil, and declared cessation from the union (which they should have been able to do), THEN he declared the emancipation proclomation so as to effect supplies, morale, and soldier counts in the South. Mind you, ol' Honest Abe didn't seem to give too much of a damn about the rights of slaves, or poor people in general, until they enlisted into the army. He left protection of slaves up to local officials in all the Union states and even used Irish immigrants as cannon fodder so as to protect the growing American proletariat. What am I saying here? He never was against slavery for moral reasons.Bregor said:
Lincoln never wanted to free the slaves. His platform never even touched on it. It only touched on keeping slavery in the south.Bregor said:
Christ, don't buy into this cookiecutter high school history bullshit, man. If Lincoln really cared about slavery, and really cared about blacks as a whole, don't you think he would have taken the extra measure to ensure their security and well-being once they got to the north?
Abraham Lincoln said:
Lincoln is only made a hero because of two things: 1) Winning the Civil War and 2) His assassination (which we also see with JFK). He barely won the war and couldn't have possibly tried to have more incompetent leadership at the first 3 years of the war. He also did nothing to Sherman's crimes against humanity throughout the war and if this had happened in today's international milieu, the world would demand Lincoln appear at the Hague for his treatment of citizens during the war. Christ... he allowed the US Navy to open fire on NEW YORK to quell riots. He ignored the Constitution continually in order to preserve the Union, and, like I said... if you're one of these "The ends justify the means" type people, then you're more than welcome, in my opinion, to worship Lincoln. But if that's how you feel then we should probably nuke Iran and north korea right now, too.
How can anyone think Lincoln is a great American?
Ash Housewares
The Mountain Jew
damn I really hate Teddy, I hate most of our history, um, I'll nominate this guy since I read his book
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
He also suspended Habeas Corpus (sp?) also during the Civil War.
Also in the 1840s and 1850s, the Presidents at that time waffled around the issue. They were too pathetic to say that slavery sucks to keep the country together. That or they'd pass weak ass laws that did nothing to help out the abolitionist cause. However there was just too much unrest so Lincoln backed the anti-slavery pony.
You make many claims all of them factually incorrect.
His opposition to slavery is well established even prior to his joining the Republican party. You need only to examine the Lincoln - Douglas debates to see many clear demonstrations of this. But lets have his own words speak for himself.
"Slavery is founded in the selfishness of man's nature, opposition to it in his love of justice. These principles are an eternal antagonism, and when brought into collision so fiercly as slavery extension brings them, shocks and throes and convulsions must ceaselessly follow. Repeal the Missouri Compromise, repeal all compromises; repeal the Declaration of Independence, repeal all past history - you still cannot repeal human nature. It still will be the abundance of man's heart that slavery extension is wrong, and out of the abundance of his heart his mouth will continue to speak."
All factually incorrect. South Carolina had alread seceeded from the Union, the first state to do so. It did so in reaction to Lincolns election - he had not be sworn in at the time, had made no statements about slaves or emancipation since election, and had made no orders to the army (as he was not yet President). The garrison at Fort Sumter was made up of US Army troops that had been stationed in South Carolina before the state seceeded. The withdrew to the island because it was more secure and there was less of a chance of troops and civilians antagonizing each other. For many months they remained there, with South Carolina requesting their withdraw. When they learned that Lincoln had dispatched a group of Navy vessels to resupply the fort with food (not arms) they then choose to attack.
Once again wrong. His disdain for slavery is clearly established in many, many statements. And given that Abe himself grew up poor, your attempt to pass him of as one of the rich elite is just plain silly.
Well of course, if his platform had been anti slavery, he would have destroyed his chances of receiving any support in the border states. You must play politics to get elected - that doesn't mean that he had no hope of eventually freeing the slaves.
I'm basing none of this on my highschool education, but rather on my long interest and reading on the Civil War era.
And once again you seem to be confusing the ideals he may have held with the political realities he had to face. Any change as great as the ones from slavery to free man must be done slowly, and in steps. Society, even in the north, was not yet truly prepared for the free black man. It would take over a hundred years before it was (and inequality exists even today).
Lincoln is thought of as a great man because he led his nation through the most troubling period it has ever gone through (even to this day), saved the Union, and freed the slaves. Any other man in his position may well have just let the Union dissolve, with the result of the preservation of slavery in the south.
I am aware of his violations of the Constitution, and I do not condone them. But to forget all the other important achievements he accomplished is foolish.
whytemyke said:
His opposition to slavery is well established even prior to his joining the Republican party. You need only to examine the Lincoln - Douglas debates to see many clear demonstrations of this. But lets have his own words speak for himself.
"Slavery is founded in the selfishness of man's nature, opposition to it in his love of justice. These principles are an eternal antagonism, and when brought into collision so fiercly as slavery extension brings them, shocks and throes and convulsions must ceaselessly follow. Repeal the Missouri Compromise, repeal all compromises; repeal the Declaration of Independence, repeal all past history - you still cannot repeal human nature. It still will be the abundance of man's heart that slavery extension is wrong, and out of the abundance of his heart his mouth will continue to speak."
All factually incorrect. South Carolina had alread seceeded from the Union, the first state to do so. It did so in reaction to Lincolns election - he had not be sworn in at the time, had made no statements about slaves or emancipation since election, and had made no orders to the army (as he was not yet President). The garrison at Fort Sumter was made up of US Army troops that had been stationed in South Carolina before the state seceeded. The withdrew to the island because it was more secure and there was less of a chance of troops and civilians antagonizing each other. For many months they remained there, with South Carolina requesting their withdraw. When they learned that Lincoln had dispatched a group of Navy vessels to resupply the fort with food (not arms) they then choose to attack.
Once again wrong. His disdain for slavery is clearly established in many, many statements. And given that Abe himself grew up poor, your attempt to pass him of as one of the rich elite is just plain silly.
Well of course, if his platform had been anti slavery, he would have destroyed his chances of receiving any support in the border states. You must play politics to get elected - that doesn't mean that he had no hope of eventually freeing the slaves.
I'm basing none of this on my highschool education, but rather on my long interest and reading on the Civil War era.
And once again you seem to be confusing the ideals he may have held with the political realities he had to face. Any change as great as the ones from slavery to free man must be done slowly, and in steps. Society, even in the north, was not yet truly prepared for the free black man. It would take over a hundred years before it was (and inequality exists even today).
Lincoln is thought of as a great man because he led his nation through the most troubling period it has ever gone through (even to this day), saved the Union, and freed the slaves. Any other man in his position may well have just let the Union dissolve, with the result of the preservation of slavery in the south.
I am aware of his violations of the Constitution, and I do not condone them. But to forget all the other important achievements he accomplished is foolish.
Josiah Harlan
Josiah Harlan (June 12, 1799 - 1871) was an American adventurer, best known for travelling to Afghanistan and Punjab with the intention of being made king. While there, he became involved in local politics and factional military actions, eventually winning the title Prince of Ghor in perpetuity for himself and his descendants in exchange for military aid.
Boogie9IGN
Member
Benjamin Franklin for the win.
(I recently read he was quite the popular guy to have sex with when he was in France, what a thug)
(I recently read he was quite the popular guy to have sex with when he was in France, what a thug)
The Experiment said:
Trust-buster, environmentalist, and progressive. However he was a true asskicker, an explorer, and still gave out a speech after someone shot him.
I'm rather surprised by the lack of Roosevelt (either) love going on in this thread so far.
And :lol at Washington being the greatest American.
WAY too many celebrities (movies and sport) on that list from that link.
Despite that, no JBL!
"Who are the individuals that make this country great?" is how they seem to define "greatest American".
With that, I don't see how GWB could be in the Top 25. He's run the country's name through dirt in the eyes of the World...I'm not bashing Bush here, I'm just saying that under his Presidency, the US has done more harm than good to itself and to others.
Despite that, no JBL!
"Who are the individuals that make this country great?" is how they seem to define "greatest American".
With that, I don't see how GWB could be in the Top 25. He's run the country's name through dirt in the eyes of the World...I'm not bashing Bush here, I'm just saying that under his Presidency, the US has done more harm than good to itself and to others.
Ninja Scooter
Member
android said:I'll put in Wilbur and Orville Wright
the popcorn guys?
There's also a lack of writers...examples:
Mark Twain
Ernest Hemingway
William Faulkner
John Steinbeck
J. D. Salinger
Kurt Vonnegut
Jack Kerouac
Arthur Miller
Richard Wright
James Baldwin
Maya Angelou
Langston Hughes
August Wilson
Emily Dickinson
Robert Frost
Walt Whitman
E. E. Cummings
Mark Twain
Ernest Hemingway
William Faulkner
John Steinbeck
J. D. Salinger
Kurt Vonnegut
Jack Kerouac
Arthur Miller
Richard Wright
James Baldwin
Maya Angelou
Langston Hughes
August Wilson
Emily Dickinson
Robert Frost
Walt Whitman
E. E. Cummings
Hamilton and Jefferson and Franklin, oh my. After the 1700s: Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Albert Thayer Mahan and Woodrow Wilson in his supporting role as best failure. Postwar should include John F. Kennedy and Fiorello LaGuardia (who left the mayoralty in 1946, if I remember correctly).
And I am an idiot beyond belief for ignoring Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Robert F. Kennedy in the what could have been slot.
And I am an idiot beyond belief for ignoring Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Robert F. Kennedy in the what could have been slot.
automagnus
Member
Ben Franklin FTW
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
For Bregor who is arguing Lincoln was against slavery you are dead wrong. At the lest you could say he was a freestater, a freestater being one who thought the states should decide if slavery would be allowed, but the bulk of the evidence points at him being an old fashioned racist, despite the poor boy raised in an Illinois log cab, rhetoric that has been shoved down the throats of children for decades. Lincoln as a state legislator made several speeches using racist language. He issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military strategy, to weaken the south and cause far and panic that the blacks upon hearing they were free, would stop supporting the southern war machine and go ape shit and start fucking stuff up in the south. Douglass and the other abolitionist and his military advisors, were begging Lincoln from day one to free the blacks but he refused, until it became absolutely necessary to do so. To bolster this claim the Proclamation did not free all the slaves, just those in the states fighting the North. I'm sure you will come up with some bullshit cock and bull story on why he did that, and why he was such a freed to the black man. Lincoln was quoted several times in his life claiming that blacks were inferior to whites and his desire to see the white man dominate the black race.
Here is another quote from Lincoln during the Douglas debates:
"Now I say to you, my fellow citizen, that in my opinion, the signers of the Declaration of Independence had no reference to the Negro whatever. One great evidence is to be found in the fact that at the time every one of the thirteen colonies was a slaveholding colony, every signer of the Declaration representing a slaveholding constituency, and not one of them emancipated his slaves, much less offered citizenship to them when they signed the Declaration. If they intended to declare the Negro was equal of the white man, they were bound that day and hour to have put the Negroes on an equality with themselves." - Abraham Lincoln, during the October 16, 1858 debate in Peoria, IL with Douglas.
What say you now mister Lincoln loved the blacks so much? Here are some more quotes:
"I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the Negro into our social and political life as our equal. . . We can never attain the ideal union our fathers dreamed, with millions of an alien, inferior race among us, whose assimilation is neither possible nor desirable." - Abraham Lincoln, after signing the Emancipation Proclamation
IN A SPEECH IN CINCINNATI OHIO SEPT 17, 1859
There is a physical difference between the white and black races which, I believe, will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality! And, inasmuch as they cannot so live while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position, the negroes should be denied everthing! - THE WORDS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN
Here is another quote from Lincoln during the Douglas debates:
"Now I say to you, my fellow citizen, that in my opinion, the signers of the Declaration of Independence had no reference to the Negro whatever. One great evidence is to be found in the fact that at the time every one of the thirteen colonies was a slaveholding colony, every signer of the Declaration representing a slaveholding constituency, and not one of them emancipated his slaves, much less offered citizenship to them when they signed the Declaration. If they intended to declare the Negro was equal of the white man, they were bound that day and hour to have put the Negroes on an equality with themselves." - Abraham Lincoln, during the October 16, 1858 debate in Peoria, IL with Douglas.
What say you now mister Lincoln loved the blacks so much? Here are some more quotes:
"I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the Negro into our social and political life as our equal. . . We can never attain the ideal union our fathers dreamed, with millions of an alien, inferior race among us, whose assimilation is neither possible nor desirable." - Abraham Lincoln, after signing the Emancipation Proclamation
IN A SPEECH IN CINCINNATI OHIO SEPT 17, 1859
There is a physical difference between the white and black races which, I believe, will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality! And, inasmuch as they cannot so live while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position, the negroes should be denied everthing! - THE WORDS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN
ronito said:
Somewhere between the boorish and villified Lincoln the revisionists are now pushing to the fore (revisionism being a very important tool for historians seeking publication and notoriety) and the saintly Honest Abe lies the real Lincoln.
He preserved the Union -- by force. He freed the slaves -- out of political necessity. He was the first American dictator -- to ensure the American democracy wouldn't pass into oblivion.
I consider him to be one of the greatest Americans ever because he had the strength of will do to what he thought was correct -- even while he was wholly hated in the South and largely hated in the North. Without him holding the United States together, we would most likely have, as author Michael Shaara suggested, three separate countries, a north and south with armed borders and a third country in the west serving as a balance of power.
History is never quite as black and white as dullards want us to believe.
ToyMachine228
Member
Ah man, how could I forget good old TR? So Hamilton, Theodore Roosevelt and General Patton for me.
And yes, Washington was a magnificent man. Not only did he realize that we couldn't beat the British is straight up warfare and lead us to victory through guerilla tactics, but he also set almost every precident for a US President that we take for granted today. An amazing man.
And yes, Washington was a magnificent man. Not only did he realize that we couldn't beat the British is straight up warfare and lead us to victory through guerilla tactics, but he also set almost every precident for a US President that we take for granted today. An amazing man.
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