History Buffs: who is the greatest American?

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Bregor said:
Once again you are missing the point. I don't consider any work with an agenda to be a reputable source. You made the claims, now you back them up. You have claimed to have copies of primary sources, provide them.
Did you even read my post? I just did. They're all in that book. Go read the book.

Oh wait... I suppose you're going to say that since I don't have the sources online, I can't back up what I said and therefore you win the argument?

Fine. You win. I don't even care anymore. Go on and love Lincoln... it matters naught to me. I lied about my sources. Just ignore the books I told you to read and ignore the fact that one of them is still laced with sources throughout which can easily be read without biases. Seriously. Ignore it all. You win. I quit. This is stupid.
 
MC Safety said:
Somewhere between the boorish and villified Lincoln the revisionists are now pushing to the fore (revisionism being a very important tool for historians seeking publication and notoriety) and the saintly Honest Abe lies the real Lincoln.

He preserved the Union -- by force. He freed the slaves -- out of political necessity. He was the first American dictator -- to ensure the American democracy wouldn't pass into oblivion.
I consider him to be one of the greatest Americans ever because he had the strength of will do to what he thought was correct -- even while he was wholly hated in the South and largely hated in the North. Without him holding the United States together, we would most likely have, as author Michael Shaara suggested, three separate countries, a north and south with armed borders and a third country in the west serving as a balance of power.

History is never quite as black and white as dullards want us to believe.

Bah, I personally believe Lee could ahve done those same things WHILE being loved. My votes go to Franklin and Robert E. Lee.
 
I´m not an american (from Sweden), but if I´m allowed to participate, I´d say that your greatest countrymen are Robert E. Lee and Elvis Presley.

Abraham Lincoln, Bill Clinton and Michael Jordan is almost up there with them, but has some flaws that doesn´t make them as good as the other two.
 
Yamauchi said:
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Josiah Harlan

Josiah Harlan (June 12, 1799 - 1871) was an American adventurer, best known for travelling to Afghanistan and Punjab with the intention of being made king. While there, he became involved in local politics and factional military actions, eventually winning the title Prince of Ghor in perpetuity for himself and his descendants in exchange for military aid.

I actually just bought a book about this guy. He is so fucking amazing.
 
Boogie said:
I'm rather surprised by the lack of Roosevelt (either) love going on in this thread so far.

And :lol at Washington being the greatest American.

Why laugh and then not even provide a rationale? And why would it even be irrational to suggest Washington as being the greatest American?
 
Way too many old white men in people's lists, all of whom had substantial flaws in some way or another (whether they held slaves, or held bigoted and antiquated views, or whatever). When I think of the people that make me proud to be American, I think of people who went against the grain.

Specifically, I think of people like MLK, Henry David Thorough, Frederick Douglas, F. Scott Fitzgerald, or hell, even Bob Dylan. Those are who define America's best qualities to me.
 
Don't judge Lincoln by what he said in Public, there is evidence in his private messages that he believed Slavery to be an evil and ungodly act.
 
FDR was the man.. but I don't know if I would rank him as the greatest single American ever.. it is a tough call no matter who you pick..
 
Blackace said:
FDR was the man.. but I don't know if I would rank him as the greatest single American ever.. it is a tough call no matter who you pick..

What do you think about the internment camps he set up for Japanese-Americans? Like I said, I don't think picking Presidents is the best way to go, because all of them have major flaws.
 
kablooey said:
What do you think about the internment camps he set up for Japanese-Americans? Like I said, I don't think picking Presidents is the best way to go, because all of them have major flaws.

Modern Presidents don't a lot less power than before.. and like I said I wouldn't pick him for the greatest American award..
 
Blackace said:
Modern Presidents don't a lot less power than before.. and like I said I wouldn't pick him for the greatest American award..

Um, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say...can you try rewording that post?
 
Mashing said:
Bah, I personally believe Lee could ahve done those same things WHILE being loved. My votes go to Franklin and Robert E. Lee.

Except...Robert E. Lee was a slaveholder and a traitor. He was a brilliant military mind, but he chose to give up his allegiance to the United States of America.
 
kablooey said:
Um, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say...can you try rewording that post?

I didn't say he was the greatest American, just I stated that he was the "man" during tough times in America. And do you really think he (or any Modern President) decides all aspects of running the States? Sure he could have said "No camps!!! I don't want camps!!" and that in itself is a fault.. But I am pretty sure he wasn't sitting in the White House and said "You know we should put all the Japanese in camps."
 
Ok, that's a bit clearer, but now you're even more wrong.

But I am pretty sure he wasn't sitting in the White House and said "You know we should put all the Japanese in camps."

That's exactly what he did, actually. The idea of internment camps was an Executive Order...meaning it was a mandate issued by Roosevelt himself.
 
kablooey said:
Ok, that's a bit clearer, but now you're even more wrong.



That's exactly what he did, actually. The idea of internment camps was an Executive Order...meaning it was a mandate issued by Roosevelt himself.

the order was yes..

A number of sources I have read have the idea coming from someone else in his admin.. but of course I focused on Japanese history not American, just the two crossed paths in my studies during this era..
 
kablooey said:
Specifically, I think of people like MLK, Henry David Thorough, Frederick Douglas, F. Scott Fitzgerald, or hell, even Bob Dylan. Those are who define America's best qualities to me.
I can't say anything bad about MLK or Douglas, but Thoreau and Fitzgerald had their personal flaws as well. Thoreau conveniently left out parts of his experience at Walden, specifically, the times that he went into the city with friends to enjoy fine dining and other aspects of high society. Fitzgerald was unfaithful to his wife and addicted to the lavish lifestyle that he criticized. Both of these writers had an important role in defining the image of the American, but it is not fair to say that they were any less flawed than the presidents listed here.

I don't think that flaws are enough to prevent someone from being the greatest American unless the flaw was really bad. The internment camps were terrible, but I feel that FDR's achievements deserve recognition. Lincoln was certainly a racist and fairly reluctant to free the slaves, but his ability to hold the Union together and the fact that he ultimately did free the slaves deserves recognition. The flaws should not be ignored, but I don't think that they necessarily diminish the accomplishments of these people. I think that these people should be judged by their strengths rather than their weaknesses as none of them were truly reprehensible yet all of them were "great".
 
kablooey said:
Ok, that's a bit clearer, but now you're even more wrong.



That's exactly what he did, actually. The idea of internment camps was an Executive Order...meaning it was a mandate issued by Roosevelt himself.

I agree with you on the internment camps, but aside from that, Roosevelt pretty much saved the country from going through a revolution with the New Deal. That's pretty big. I'm not saying there would have been a revolution, but without the New Deal this country would have been heading towards it.

Also, Executive Orders are a direct mandate from the President, but that doesn't mean he's the only one who came up with the idea. There are other people who are direct influences to the President who may have come up with the idea. There might have been a lot of pressure on him to do it.
 
Sathsquatch said:
I can't say anything bad about MLK or Douglas, but Thoreau and Fitzgerald had their personal flaws as well. Thoreau conveniently left out parts of his experience at Walden, specifically, the times that he went into the city with friends to enjoy fine dining and other aspects of high society. Fitzgerald was unfaithful to his wife and addicted to the lavish lifestyle that he criticized. Both of these writers had an important role in defining the image of the American, but it is not fair to say that they were any less flawed than the presidents listed here.

Well, I don't really have a problem with people being capricious in their private lives (or at least I don't have as much of a problem with it); the quality of the work they left behind is what really matters to me. Fitzgerald being unfaithful to his wife or Thoreau being lavish don't really affect the lives of others much. On the other hand, FDR confining Japanese to internment camps had a significant negative impact on thousands of people, and most other presidents made poor policy decisions sometime that caused suffering of some kind. So because of that, I'll stand by what I said before.
 
Meh, I generally love FDR but he really was an outward racist and hated blacks, from what I've been hearing. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that he didn't really hesitate to throw japanese into camps. who was that one japanese-american that Clinton honored back in like 98? The guy who even went so far as have plastic surgery and change his name so that people didn't think he was japanese, then broke curfew and got taken to an internment camp, and all the while he didn't hold a grudge against anyone. Now that guy should be revered as a fucking hero, and the saddest thing is that in 20 years nobody will even know who he is. (I'm pissed at myself for having forgotten the guys name... I just studied the supreme court decision last year. BAH!)

Edit: KOREMATSU!!! That's the guy's name... you can read about the case here. Case in point that he's forgotten? He died back in March and I didn't even hear about it. Did anyone else? Here's a quick summary of his life.
 
whytemyke said:
Meh, I generally love FDR but he really was an outward racist and hated blacks, from what I've been hearing. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that he didn't really hesitate to throw japanese into camps. who was that one japanese-american that Clinton honored back in like 98? The guy who even went so far as have plastic surgery and change his name so that people didn't think he was japanese, then broke curfew and got taken to an internment camp, and all the while he didn't hold a grudge against anyone. Now that guy should be revered as a fucking hero, and the saddest thing is that in 20 years nobody will even know who he is. (I'm pissed at myself for having forgotten the guys name... I just studied the supreme court decision last year. BAH!)

He was a racist like his Gernerals in his armed forces.. MacAurther was a serious racist..
 
Yes, King was unfaithful to his wife - it is documented in EVERY legitimate biography about his life; no he did not credit EVERY quote used in his writings, speeches and sermons (I would point the anonymous critic to criticism of Dr.W.A. Criswell along the same lines!) King was not trying to be an academic, he was presenting an ethic upon which to build a freedom movement and it was based on exposure to legitimate scholars (many of whom he dialogued with personally, or with whom he had correspondance) ALL PREACHERS ARE GUILTY OF FAILURE TO ATTRIBUTE ALL OF THEIR SOURCE MATERIALS! It doesn't make the truth of what they are saying any less valid.

Yes King was advised by some those who were FORMER members of the communist party. Stanley Levison was a trusted advisor; yes Bayard Rustin was a communist sympathizer, if not member and yes he was gay. Does that mean that we no longer mention the March on Washington because he helped organize it? Were 250,000 people who gathered on that day completely delusional and unpatriotic?


.
 
sans_pants said:
mlk really only helped one segment of america, unlike a president that sweepingly helps all of america


huh. I thought he helped us all by attempting to bring us together.
 
sans_pants said:
mlk really only helped one segment of america, unlike a president that sweepingly helps all of america
I don't know of any presidents that tried to help everyone. we don't have people like that here.
 
FDR was a socialist, Hoover's economic theories would have yielded recovery sooner, Hitler did more to revitalize our economy than FDR did
 
I would choose Thomas Jefferson.


Bregor said:
You are the one that is incorrect. Abe Lincoln was opposed to slavery, and in particular the spread of slavery all his life. But it is silly to believe that he could have realisticly come in and freed them from the start of his presidency without totally destroying the union.
Bregor said:
You make many claims all of them factually incorrect.

His opposition to slavery is well established even prior to his joining the Republican party. You need only to examine the Lincoln - Douglas debates to see many clear demonstrations of this. But lets have his own words speak for himself.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it" - Lincoln writing to Horace Greeley on Aug. 22, 1862

Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858: (First Debate - Ottawa, Illinois - August 21, 1858)
http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm
When Southern people tell us they are no more responsible for the origin of slavery than we, I acknowledge the fact. When it is said that the institution exists, and that it is very difficult to get rid of it, in any satisfactory way, I can understand and appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for not doing what I should not know how to do myself. If all earthly power were given me, I should not know what to do, as to the existing institution. My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia,-to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope, (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible. If they were all landed there in a day, they would all perish in the next ten days; and there are not surplus shipping and surplus money enough in the world to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all, and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not hold one in slavery at any rate; yet the point is not clear enough to me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not. Whether this feeling accords with justice and sound judgment, is not the sole question, if, indeed, it is any part of it. A universal feeling, whether well or ill-founded, cannot be safely disregarded. We cannot, then, make them equals. It does seem to me that systems of gradual emancipation might be adopted; but for their tardiness in this, I will not undertake to judge our brethren of the South.
 
kablooey said:
Sorry, but I don't take people very seriously who try to discredit MLK by saying he only impacted half of America. :) Does that make me an arrogant asshole? Probably. :P
QFT.... black people were only like 1/3rd of the population. AMIRITE KABLOOEY? LOLZ




kidding. :)
 
whytemyke said:
I don't know of any presidents that tried to help everyone. we don't have people like that here.


im not here to pick anyone, im here to pick choices apart, very very lazily i might add
 
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