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[ManaByte]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10/11/hobbit.jaw.ap/index.html

AP) -- Scientists digging in a remote Indonesian cave have uncovered a jaw bone that they say adds more evidence that a tiny prehistoric Hobbit-like species once existed.

The jaw is from the ninth individual believed to have lived as recently as 12,000 years ago. The bones are in a wet cave on the on the island of Flores in the eastern limb of the Indonesian archipelago, near Australia.

The research team which reported the original, sensational finding nearly a year ago strongly believes that the skeletons belong to a separate species of early human that shared Earth with modern humans far more recently than anyone thought.

The bones have enchanted many anthropologists who have come to accept the interpretation of these diminutive skeletons marooned on Flores with dwarf elephants and other miniaturized animals, giving the discovery a kind of fairy tale quality.

But a vocal scientific minority insists the specimens are nothing more than the bones of modern humans that suffered from microencephaly, a broadly defined genetic disorder that results in small brain size.

The latest discovery on Flores to be published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature does not change their minds, they said, with one critic describing the latest artifacts as "pretty scrappy."

And, at least two groups of opponents have submitted their own studies to other leading scientific journals refuting the Flores work.

The result is a controversy unlike any other in the often-contentious study of human origins. Those caught in the middle say the debate is a real test for what we know about human evolution.

"Many syndromes can cause microencephaly and dwarfism and they all need to be considered," said Daniel E. Lieberman of the Peabody Museum at Harvard, who wrote a commentary in Nature. "The findings are not only astonishing, but also exciting because of the questions they raise."

 

[Ecrofirt]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10/11/hobbit.jaw.ap/index.html

Gollum, no!

You should have left the cave, little buddy! Your precious decieved you!

 

[Instigator]

But a vocal scientific minority insists the specimens are nothing more than the bones of modern humans that suffered from microencephaly, a broadly defined genetic disorder that results in small brain size.

Wouldn't a simple DNA analysis state without a shadow of a doubt whether those hobbits are humans or not? Neanderthals are clearly not deformed humans, their DNA does not lie (on top of mutliple Neanderthal bone sites scattered in Eurasia).

 

[Hitokage]

If this group of people ALL had microencephaly and were genetically segregated from normal humans... then they would be far along the way to speciation regardless.

 

[Phoenix]

Wouldn't a simple DNA analysis state without a shadow of a doubt whether those hobbits are humans or not?

They are of course human, just a different species of (or so is the claim). There was (thousands upon thousands of years ago) MANY different species of human. We're just the only one that survived this far.

 

[Instigator]

There are descendants of homo herectus, just like modern humans and Neanderthals are. But hundreds of thousands of years of genetic drift should be evident in the DNA and thus show them to be a different human species.

I'm just amazed not DNA test have been done yet (?). This is not the 19th century anymore, get to it and use the technology to silence (or prove right) the skeptics.

There is a possibility that DNA, particularly mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), might be able to be retrieved from the bones. Their relatively recent age and the fact that the bones have not been been fossilized increases the likelihood that this can be done, but the tropical climate of Indonesia reduces the chance of success. High temperatures degrade DNA, and the Neandertal fossils from which mtDNA have been extracted all came from much colder climates than Indonesia. We will have to wait and see whether mtDNA can be successfully extracted from LB1.

Here's possibly why DNA testing has not been done yet.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/flores.html

 

[Phoenix]

There are descendants of homo herectus, just like modern humans and Neanderthals are. But hundreds of thousands of years of genetic drift should be evident in the DNA and thus show them to be a different human species.

They are saying that they should be near neighbors - 12-20k years, not 100k years.

I'm just amazed not DNA test have been done yet (?). This is not the 19th century anymore, get to it and use the technology to silence (or prove right) the skeptics.

Yep, and soon people will see just how 'decisive' scientific evidence can be. Any analysis you make of 12k+ year old DNA will be open to large amounts of interpretation just as there are groups of scientists who have scientific evidence that it likely wasn't a meteor that brought about the extinction of the dinos - just perhaps finished them off.

 

[Dice]

I saw a TV special on that island, I thought they had way more things than a jawbone.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I saw a TV special on that island, I thought they had way more things than a jawbone.

they do, its just the latest discovery.

 

[Hitokage]

It helps to keep in mind that formation and classification of species is entirely relative and sometimes arbitrary. If B is just a "malformed" A, and C is a "malformed" B... you could say that A = B = C even though A is clearly different from C(add as many letters as you want to this example). This is why some people throw out terms like "micro" and "macro" evolution, because they can't make that sequence of steps even though the process that allows for small variations and large variations are the same, just one has acted longer.

 

[Instigator]

They are saying that they should be near neighbors - 12-20k years, not 100k years.

What? The bones are 12 000 years old, not the amount of time that seperates them from modern humans. Don't confuse the two. DNA analysis would answer the latter issue about the hobbit.

The most recent Neanderthal bones are 30 000 years old, but the amount of genetic drift between them and modern humans is in the hundreds of thousands of years.

12 000 years old is less time that what separates all the races in modern humans. There would be no more fuss about the 'hobbit' than some old bones from pigmeys from Africa.

 

[ToyMachine228]

I want to see comparison pictures. Modern human jaw, vs Hobbit jaw.

 

[sans_pants]

this could be a ploy for a live action hobbit movie being made


just like that simpsons episode with the angel

 

[The Shadow]

They are saying that they should be near neighbors - 12-20k years, not 100k years.

Uh no. They didn't split from other Homo 12k years ago. The bones they found are 12k years old alone. That just means they were still around relatively recently unlike the other the Homo which died off once Archaic Homo sapiens started spreading around.

 

[Widfara]

Holy shit, if these are just 12 thousand years old.... that's incredible... 12 thousand years is.... nothing.

 

[Phoenix]

What the article says is that there are Hobbit bones from around the same time Homo sapiens were evolving (100k years ago where there are hobbit bones 95K years old). This means that we are near neighbors in evolution - we didn't evolve hundreds of thousands of years after they died.

n 2004, scientists announced their original, sensational discovery of a delicate skull and partial skeleton of a female, nicknamed "Hobbit" and believed to be 18,000 years old. In addition, they found separate bones and fragments of other individuals ranging in age from 12,000 to 95,000 years old.