dreamcastmaster
Banned
They have made it easier for mainlanders to get Visas to visit Hong Kong. It can sometimes take a long time to get through the border from China to Hong Kong now. Upto 2 hours.
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Hong Kong marches for democracy (Live: Police begins to remove protesters)
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They have made it easier for mainlanders to get Visas to visit Hong Kong. It can sometimes take a long time to get through the border from China to Hong Kong now. Upto 2 hours.
This article is a good summary: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/world/asia/hong-kong-national-education-controversy/
AlphaTwo00
Member
In 2012:
http://www.ibtimes.com/hong-kong-protesters-national-education-wary-integration-mainland-china-780011
Specifically, the reform curriculum did not go through educators in Hong Kong, but were designed by outside sources in China. Upon review, many educators and students slammed the favourable Chinese bias, such as the removal of Tiananmen Square and other "sensitive subject matter" that had always been within the Hong Kong curriculum.
Either that or they identify more with Britain than China, which isn't surprising at all.
freeofgreed
Member
They were doing fine before losing their manufacturing jobs to China. Right now they need tourist money from China to stay afloat.
The brainwashing and whitewashing had always been in the system. Racial and class equality were always brushed aside. How else could you convince a majority being treated as second class citizen in their own city?
While the libertarian policies lifted the economy to a certain height, it was never sustainable, and many of its bad side effects are raring their ugly heads. The city is run by a few families. When you are ranked #1 by the Heritage Foundation for 20 years a row, you know it's a fucking bad thing.
Other people have addressed this so I won't pile on but... This is an amazingly stupid post. Well met, tino.
They had a similar protest last year, I really hope they can get democracy or independence at some point. A lot of Hong Kongers came here to British Columbia around the time of the handover.
Stuff like this must really piss off the Communist Party:
a few years ago when I was a senior in HS, I made friends with a exchange student from HK. She was staunchly anti beijing and before she left, she gave me a 3x5 flag of British Hong Kong.
AlphaTwo00
Member
That, unfortunately, is a much stickier mess that isn't part of China's intervention. The core low end manufacturing were bound to disappear from Hong Kong once China opened up. The last 10 years Hong Kong attempted to stage itself with the tech sector, but by sheer size and output it was going to get crushed by it's neighbours Taiwan and China anyways (I mean, the entire idea behind Cyberport was literally to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, be it software, hardware, games, and even movies). I'm not too sure if there's a good solution from anyone on that front, but having China interfering definitely gives the people a blame for all their current problems.
MissDeviling
Member
Shit, I knew they wanted to reform education in HK, but I had no idea they wanted to remove the Tiananmen incident. That's absolutely disgusting.
I remember when Hong Kong was featured in Street Fighter.
And so was the USSR.
The period after the the iron curtain collapsed and before Kosovo was actually the most optimistic time of the world. I miss that early Clinton year. Hong Kong used to make good movies too.
My family left Hong Kong in 87 because of the impending handover as well. Back then I was too young to understand what was happening, but I totally get it now. Imagine it's the Cold War, and Communist China is gonna take control of your country. "NOPE I'M OUT" would be my reaction too.
ProfessorMoran
Member
They identify more with a country that enacted discriminatory policy against them until nearly the very end, and wouldn't even grant them citizenship.
Thus the lack of critical thinking skills.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Are you just incredibly dense or just ignorant? Hong Kong was a colony under UK rules, and, dispite you claiming discriminatory policies, in most people's view, were still way better off than what china was (and is proposing) (and also, look no further than the creation of the ICAC, the crackdown of native Chinese corruption, and the near powerless state it lies today). More importantly, given how the colony was established (as a 99 year lease) handover rules were written, it's not even in the British right or rule to hand everyone citizenship right. Frankly, in my view, they've done more than their share of what they did (establish the city as a leadin benchmark in the area, developed its infrastructure like transport, health, and education, and even granting the citizens the BNO), only to have the current government install leaders through "democracy" that are mere hand puppets to squander it all away.
Fun fact: despite some that will tell you that Hong Kong people have the right to vote, the leaders in the past 17 years were all part of a self selection process as dictated by Beijing. That, by the way, is what china expects democratic process to be for HK.
Yup. Back then the climate was very different. China had no clear plans for governance, and everyone was scared that it would be exactly like communist China. The Tiananmen incident made things infinitely worse, tanks used to flatten teens at a peaceful protest. I remember watching CNN live feeds filmed on infrared cameras, it was fucking terrifying. Everyone who could get out of Hong Kong got the heck out of there.
SecretMoblin
Member
For folks who live there or have strong ties to HK:
do the people in HK largely see themselves as members of a broader "China", or do they see themselves as distinct? The situations around HK/Macau/Taiwan are different, of course, but the question of identity and its potential political ramifications has always been really interesting to me...
do the people in HK largely see themselves as members of a broader "China", or do they see themselves as distinct? The situations around HK/Macau/Taiwan are different, of course, but the question of identity and its potential political ramifications has always been really interesting to me...
AlphaTwo00
Member
It's not even strictly to China anymore either: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/confucius-institute-chinese-for-conflict-of-interest/article19401054/
If this is the kind of stuff that is happening in other countries, you can't exactly blame the Hong Kong people to be worried about exactly what is being taught.
Right, you're the one thinking for yourself. Please do show the "discriminatory and failed polices", and how they're currently more detrimental to the current set of failed discriminatory and failed policies, AND interference of actual politics. The people of Hong Kong are looking at what was before, and what is now, and it's a matter of seeing what had worked, and what isn't working. Is the statement of reverting back to British rule naive? Yes, but it's a simplified point that, upon examination, showcases a series of problems that exist.
But then again, it's probably easier for you to just ignore what's going on, the facts, toe the party line and ignore what anyone would say.
EDIT: You know what. Thinking about it. I'm not even going to apologize for it. It physically makes me sick that there somehow, given both sides (China and UK) had signed a treaty dictating what can and is allowed to happen, following the letter of intent is "picking a side" and "had discriminatory and failed policies". You might as well silence opinion like how they'd like people to do so.
Hey, since we're all on the course of disclosure: family moved to Canada in 92, I was 9 at the time, and did understand some of what was happening. Personally, I'm so detached to it now, Hong Kong feels like a part of my history as a place I'd visit because of family, and I do wish it well, but it can go either way and not really affect me. What I do feel sad about though, is the relatives, and mainly knowing that for some of them, what's happening IS affecting them negatively, and they don't actually have full control of their destiny.
Distinct, and vocally so. And more importantly, this recent rise in the push for democracy is mostly lead by the 20-30 somethings, the ones who were living through the transition as teens to young adults. Some of the older generation had resigned to the fact that the diminishment of Hong Kong as a distinct society was inevitable (and some of those were the ones that left), while very few carried on with the cause.
Interesting to bring in Taiwan into the equation: I'm honestly not familiar with how their political feelings about this currently, but I've always understood it that many have observed Hong Kong as the potential test for a unified China that integrated Taiwan. I wonder if they're looking at Hong Kong right now and going "...nope, no thanks".
Glass ceiling and pay gap was a real thing for all Chinese living in Hong Kong during the colonial era. Even within the government there's such a policy until the 90s.
There were never any concerted effort to create an equal society through education (because they don't want to), and thus discrimination, whether it be against minorities from SE Asia, new immigrants, domestic workers, the poor, the LGBT society, you name it, is rampant.
The tycoons running the city wasn't created overnight, it's through decades of low tax, zero capital gains tax and government relying on revenue generated from land sales, which makes housing unaffordable. Aside from the free public healthcare system this is pretty much a libertarian heaven that would make Ron Paul proud.
There were never any concerted effort to create an equal society through education (because they don't want to), and thus discrimination, whether it be against minorities from SE Asia, new immigrants, domestic workers, the poor, the LGBT society, you name it, is rampant.
The tycoons running the city wasn't created overnight, it's through decades of low tax, zero capital gains tax and government relying on revenue generated from land sales, which makes housing unaffordable. Aside from the free public healthcare system this is pretty much a libertarian heaven that would make Ron Paul proud.
these demonstrations occur every year, just that this year there's more people, especially since they just had that "invalid" vote thing
1st time i experienced this i asked my cousins there and they told me it was normal, it happens every year
anyway i would say most cantonese think of themselves as cantonese rather than chinese, generally it's the older population that favour closer ties to china
i'm not cantonese, but i go there often, almost yearly
1st time i experienced this i asked my cousins there and they told me it was normal, it happens every year
anyway i would say most cantonese think of themselves as cantonese rather than chinese, generally it's the older population that favour closer ties to china
i'm not cantonese, but i go there often, almost yearly
Sectorseven
Member
OT, but can I get some recommendations for films that take place in Hong Kong?
I'm looking for more contemporary stuff with nice cinematography. The city has really developed over the past decades and I want to see how it has changed since...Bloodsport.
I'm looking for more contemporary stuff with nice cinematography. The city has really developed over the past decades and I want to see how it has changed since...Bloodsport.
AlphaTwo00
Member
Yes, the glass ceiling and pay gap was an issue within the government branch, but to my understanding, in the private sector it would had been no different than any other areas of the world at the time. And yes, I do agree that there is a level of discrimination (and still does today) within the society against many different groups, but again, it's something that sadly takes time for to ease over in the region as a whole.
The tycoons are an interesting thing too, because while all those factors did help create such magnate, they were the same forces that allowed Hong Kong's tremendous growth from the 70s to the 90s as a business and financial centre. It's true that the government generates much of it's revenue in land sales, but the cost of housing isn't directly inflated there, but rather through the large increase in mainland purchasing powers squeezing out low to mid income families.
09 - A massive influx of buyers from mainland China has been a partial cause. The Chinese stimulus package of November 2008 boosted liquidity, and cash-rich Chinese, facing restrictions on bringing out capital from China, bought properties in Hong Kong.
12 - Mainland buyers are also expected to account for a higher percentage of Hong Kong's luxury sales in 2012 as local buyers sit on the sidelines.
"We believe mainland demand will be stronger this year (because) the real-high-net-worth people need to buy a fixed asset," says Thomas Lam, Knight Frank's head of research for Greater China. "They will purchase more properties in Hong Kong."
14 - Property agents said mainlanders own close to a third of the existing homes that are now for sale in Hong Kong up 20 per cent from a year ago.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Fallen Angels, Chungking Express.
Under the colonial government, there were actual rent controls. The current runaway inflation in housing stems from speculative investing by the mainland, but the renting problem is pretty much one of deregulation. I think the cause of the problem was in the sixties and seventies when the tycoons and magnates were allowed to corner the market. That stranglehold has never been relinquished, which leads to today's situation. It did not help that until then, the police in general were quite corrupt and triads ran the streets. There were lots of shady deals made that laid the ground for today's scenario.
Incidentally, the whole 'invalid vote' on the northeast New Territories development is a crazy issue. HK doesn't have much land to develop, but the process of expropriation has turned into a rallying point for social activism. The problem is that the government stopped building 'suburbs' for a long while, and it's now trying to play catch-up on the housing issue. Well, it brings all kinds of issues to the forefront, and ruffles a lot of feathers in the process.
I would say that people look too fondly upon the old colonial system - people have painted mainland China as the enemy for so long that it's entrenched. HK is the product of generations of China's best and brightest (especially the south), from the end of the Qing dynasty through the warlord era and onto the PRC. They fled to HK for good reason. That being said, I have a lot more sympathy for the SAR government than most - they have to try and appease an increasingly disgruntled populace while reporting to a boss that is an ideological opposite.
Stuff like this must really piss off the Communist Party:
Why? That is a reflection of a few generations. Countries last centuries.
All I am saying is: if you want to fight for your rights, you fight for your rights. You go out and protest and make demands.
Those people were asking for a less stinky pile of shit back.That's a guarantee to not be taken seriously.
Elfforkusu
Member
HK is a really interesting case. Rooting for them.
I don't see these annual protests stopping anytime soon. They gain steam every year and the younger generation will only fuel this. For a young person coming out of college in HK, it is almost impossible to own any sort of property. When tiny apartments cost around 1 million USD and your average monthly salary is around 1500 USD, you have no choice but to live with your parents forever. Right or wrong, it is true that mainland chinese are buying up a lot of property and driving up the prices. Also incidents like the one this past April where some little kid was going to the washroom on the street (http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/vide...on-street-in-hong-kong-chinese-reactions.html) just adds to people's frustrations. Lately it has been an us vs. them attitude for both sides. Essentially no matter who is right or wrong, they will always argue for their side. I don't see a reconciliation between the two anytime soon...
There's a lack of a liberal movement. Hong Kong is very much a right-wing city.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Isnt that true in every big city though? No one here in germany that just came out of uni, can afford an own appartment in Munich, Berlin or Cologne, if they dont have rich parents.
And HK is even smaller in terms of space compared to my hometown in germany, where only 100.000 people live.
Yup that's exactly what Taiwanese think, haha. We see what is happening to Hong Kong and the reaction is definitely a "... NOPE". We see an erosion of the "one country two system" rule that was set up to govern HK.
I think my parents left for Australia in the early 80s. Then they had me in the late 80s, and now I'm living and working HK. I'm pretty sure they hate that I'm here. My mum is constantly reminding me not to buy stuff made in China lol!
I'm not too worried about the political stuff going on here cos, you know, I can just get the hell out if everything does go bad. I do think however that some of the people are kind of abusing the freedom they have, which kinda just gives Beijing the excuse to say that you shouldn't really have that much freedom at all...
You're right, it is true that when you just come out of university you can't afford anything. The problem with HK is that even when you're 40 you still can't afford property unless you're one of the very few that earn a lot. The income disparity in HK is extremely large. There is almost no middle class. Also since HK is such a small place with very few housing development, theres no chance for people to move to the suburbs since suburbs essentially don't exist.
AmuroChan
Member
A lot less mainlanders. Nowadays mainlanders come in droves each day to buy up goods in HK and then bring them back to China to sell.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I wonder if Hong Kong nationalism will become a thing. Although I imagine China could solve that problem very easily by just opening the flood gates and having people move into HK the same way they did with Tibet and other parts of China.
Nope there was no lease UK had HK island and Kowloon in perpetuity, only the New Territories were "leased".
firehawk12
Subete no aware
In America, you're only allowed to piss on the street if it's 2am and you're drunk from 10 pints of beer. lol
Nope we don't. Tourist GDP has only grown 1.5% of GDP since Mainland Chinese were allowed in 10 years ago. The need for Mainland tourists is a blatant lie. All HK'ers would gladly donate 1.5% of their salary if they could get more breathing room in their streets, hospitals and public facilities.
We pay 200x times more for our water from China then Singapore does for its water from Malaysia.
Nope not relying on tourist money, see my previous post.
HK nationalism has been a thing for years.
That would totally breach the Joint Agreement with the UK, HK was promised to be unchanged for 50 years. A breakdown of the border can only happen in 2047. Breaking the border now would cause open revolt and anarchy.
Junior Mint
Member
Don't forget: signs added everywhere asking people (mainlanders) not to spit, hundreds of businesses converted to jewelry stores and high end fashion, even more overcrowding, general rudeness and disgusting behaviours - usually at tourist destinations, and people with rolling luggages EVERYWHERE.
I think it's only a matter of time before HK culture withers away. Cantonese will die off and every store in Causeway Bay and Tsim Sha Tsui will turn into a Chow Tai Fook jewelry store or sell baby milk powder.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Are there rules preventing mainland Chinese from buying property and living in HK? I mean, I could see the Chinese government simply giving people special incentives to move there. Certainly it's how they've tried to solve the Tibet and Uyghur problem, to (I assume) some effect.
Yes they is an extra prohibitive tax imposed on any foreigner buying property in HK, including Mainland Chinese. Also Mainland Chinese can only stay for a week maximum in HK and only a couple of times each year. They are not allowed to work or live in HK without a proper work or related visa.
Dreamgazer
Member
If there's one thing the world should know about Chinese people - it's that nothing will really stop them and their real property buying ("investments".)
HK's foreign buyer tax was a double edged sword in that regards. The tax lowered the overall demand for high end luxury residential properties, but buyers simply shifted down to mid to low tier residential properties or industrial properties. The overall housing market price therefore didn't see much of a drop for HK residence.
As for moving to HK...mainlanders can apply for HK residency after 2.5 years if they have more than 10M HKD in assets/investments ( a mere 1 million USD.) The rules are hardly stopping the mega riches.
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