This hits a bit of what actually did it.
Nuthing but a g thang kinda broke the mold.
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Hot take but Nirvana ruined rock
- Thread starter Woggleman
- Start date
Nuthing but a g thang kinda broke the mold.
This is the moment that hip hop crossed over. Even back in the day white kids loved NWA and even Public Enemy but it was still seen as niche music for the urban crowds. You had heavily watered down stuff like Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer selling tons of records but in general Dre and Snoop were the first time hardcore hip hop got airplay outside of Yo MTV raps without losing it's credibility. Then white kids started getting into Wu Tang and DMX and when Eminem came out white kids saw that they can do it as well and rock was really left behind.
Power ballads might be mocked but I would rather listen to Poison or Whitesnake over Coldplay, Matchbox 20 or James Blunt any day of the week. At least power ballads have some power.
I will happily mock what Coldplay became and what they stand for, especially Chris Martin but damn, God Put A Smile Upon On Your Face is a banger, that bass line, and annoyingly they never really did anything like it again
Flash Junkins
Member
Nirvana was never rock. Trust me I was there. They were the 80/90's emo brigade.
Nobody was confusing them with Guns and Roses.
I liked them btw. But above is the truth.
Nobody was confusing them with Guns and Roses.
I liked them btw. But above is the truth.
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Scotty W
Banned
The difference is that none of those bands can write a good pop hook. Nirvana could. Even at their Noisiest, like on Jam After Dinner, they are still catchy.
MTV was always trying to find the next revolution. There is a paradox at play.
A- is fame the cause of success? Is it 100% manufactured? I recall seeing One Direction advertising displays before ever hearing anything about them.
B- is quality the cause of fame? I recall hearing Teen Spirit when I was young, and being flattened by its power. That can’t be faked. However, people have similar experiences with all kinds of terrible music. The first play of SLTS in MTV is similar to Welcome to the Jungle, where the station resisted playing it, but the first play led to a deluge of requests.
This is basically the famous old nature vs nurture debate. MTV tried to cherry pick everything, but only a cherry with a pop hook could have borne the fame.
It is interesting to note that MTV tried to turn Faith No More into the next big thing as well, but they were far too strange for that, and Angel Dust is very radio unfriendly.
Kurt Cobain was also an infinite liar. He wanted the fame, that’s why there are so many band photo sessions, and so many hours of MTV interviews.
midnightAI
Banned
Top of the Pops in the UK tried to tell Mike Patton how they should perform the song (no live audio so mime to the backing track)... Mike was having none of that...
Spaceman292
Banned
Have you even listened to any new music in the past 20 years?
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
Also signing to a major label
Solarstrike
Member
"Rock" except for the classics of course, was becoming stagnant and repetitive. "Hair" bands were a dime a dozen. Yeah a few stood out (Guns N' Roses, Billy Idol, Motley Crue, Poison, Twisted Sister, Bon Jovi) but for the most part, the genre needed a kick in the ass. Nirvana wasn't anything "new" per se, there's always a band that's done it all before but it was the sound Nirvana brought which caught people. It was a paradigm shift and so then bands like Pearl Jam, White Stripes, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Temple of the Dog (Before Soundgarden) Tool, Alice in Chains, Stone Roses, Mudhoney, Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots and the energy they all brought became a powerful force. It all arrived like a giant wave. And it was great.
SLESS
Member
Numerous unplugged have released 6+ months post recording. Given I was old enough to enjoy their music and live/party in their pre-suicide popularity I disagree.
JCK75
Member
I'm in this weird spot where I adore Justin Hawkins and think he is one of the most talented people in the business but...
I hate this song so much.
Yeah, that's not a Nirvana thing. People dictate how the market turns, and people turned toward Nirvana because they related to it more and as a reaction to hair metal and the superficiality associated with the rock lifestyle. Hell, why do people think Wayne's World was so popular?
Also, rap was pretty much along the same lines as Nirvana back then, basically talking about the 'reality' of their various lifestyles. It wasn't just about sex and swagger. Nirvana's entry era was also the era of N.W.A. and Public Enemy, going into Biggy and Tupac era of Gangsta rap, coming off the era of socially conscious rap. Late 90's and early to mid-2000s is where you mostly get that swagger and rock star-like rap that I feel you mean.
But I was never a fan of hair metal and rock of that sort and I was kinda glad it died out to make way for more experimental metal and more hardcore stuff. More hardcore metal was also coming up around that time as well, I think that was about around where Gothenburg metal and black metal were on the rise or developing and were an antithesis to hair metal and that kind of rock.
Also, rap was pretty much along the same lines as Nirvana back then, basically talking about the 'reality' of their various lifestyles. It wasn't just about sex and swagger. Nirvana's entry era was also the era of N.W.A. and Public Enemy, going into Biggy and Tupac era of Gangsta rap, coming off the era of socially conscious rap. Late 90's and early to mid-2000s is where you mostly get that swagger and rock star-like rap that I feel you mean.
But I was never a fan of hair metal and rock of that sort and I was kinda glad it died out to make way for more experimental metal and more hardcore stuff. More hardcore metal was also coming up around that time as well, I think that was about around where Gothenburg metal and black metal were on the rise or developing and were an antithesis to hair metal and that kind of rock.
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Scotty W
Banned
There has to be something else.
Bleach sold 40,000 before Nevermind came out, Geffen hoped Nevermind would sell 100k. Most of the other big 90’s bands got signed to a major label before Nevermind came out, even Stone Temple Pilots. But lots of great bands also got signed and never made it big- Kyuss, Sonic Youth (who I don’t like, but they have a cult following) and the Melvins.
I recall an anecdote from Ben Shepard from Soundgarden, who was at the side of the stage for an early performance of Lithium. Hearing it, he commented that Nirvana had just written a top 40 hit. Ever seen the first performance of SLTS? It was clearly going to be unstoppable.
Toons
Member
Rap rock happened because rap was actually interesting snd innovative and rock wasn't anymore. It was the last ditch attempt to make rock actually relevant when it had already been waning for years and wasn't going every direction but forward. Soft rock was killing it, and yet the folks that rock wanted to appeal too didn't want soft rock.
The reason rap survived and rock didn't. (Because both of them come from the same place, and both of then were campaigned against to a large extent for YEARS) is because of the puritan campaign against both that inversely affected rock. Metal bands got called Satanist and promoting all sorts of stuff all throughout the 80s. Rap music got called music only criminals would listen to despite the fact that much of it was simple music with a conscious if not positive message, even in the early days.
The difference is that the audience for rap music didn't buy into that propaganda because well, it was nothing new for them, same old same old story of propaganda pushing against anything... let's use their terminology and call it, "urban". The folks who made the music and the folks who listened to it were used to this. rock was forced to be sanitized and when it wasn't, it was divisive if not outright vilified and THAT audience would be ostracized into obscurity or pushed towards more palatable versions. This didn't really happen to the same extent for rap.
Rap was allowed to evolve with the times and the new generation, and meanwhile everytime a rock innovation would spring up it would never be allowed to evolve both due to its fanbase being conditioned to reject anything that sounded too sanitized, nd the mainstream being too purist to allow radical new approaches. A generational divide became created that would neuter any movement beyond a certain extent. Also, the genre had arguably been oversaturated.
Eventually all the stereotypes about rap began to fade and folks realized it wss same as any other genre with some good stuff some and stuff and plenty of mixed messages, but that it was innovative and bold art that, almost by nature of its very existence was under constant suppression and ostracizing. Eventually rap was more punk than punk music, harder than metal, and edgier than grunge.
Rock music corners too often eventually fall into self parody or die on the vine, because there's always this divide. Happenened with grunge, nu metal and pop punk over the last couple decades. Its happening with rap now but thats too mainstream to fail at this time.
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Toons
Member
I still think Coldplay is a great freaking band but I've never considered them true rock. The strength of their songwriting and instrumentals is what carried them as long as it has. Even still they don't really sound like much else. They survived out of radiohesds shadow and actually managed to carve out an existence for themselves.
He is definitely talented and unique. I like watching his vids on YT from time to time https://www.youtube.com/@JustinHawkinsRidesAgain
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JCK75
Member
I watch it regurly and love it
Wildebeest
Member
Rap metal was never considered innovative or interesting, it was considered to be some trashy throwback genre that people with bad taste liked. Nu-Metal came later, and I've never really cared about that.
What is more accurately describable as the interesting and innovative direction for rock was postrock which brought in more elements of jazz, electronic music, space rock, and so on.
With music there is always a conflict between people who want something more musically complicated or emotionally dense and with the masses of young people who just want basic as shit danceable party music with big hooks, big "drops", memorable lines, or whatever. I think to raps credit it often walks the line between those two.
Muffdraul
Member
Sonic Youth, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam all had major label albums and videos on MTV before Nevermind released in Sept 1991 and blew the fuck up. Nirvana didn't have any particular advantages over any of those other bands... beyond writing songs that were simply way catchier and poppier and more appealing to the general public. Nirvana opened the doors, then the other bands were able to make headway.
Before they went mainstream, virtually all of Nirvana's audience were ex-punks in their early 20s like me who had grown up listening to the stuff you mentioned. Most of that stuff were Nirvana's influences. So to say you disliked Nirvana because you liked that earlier stuff is
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
I listened to all kinds of stuff but early techno and house were my main jam when I was young. My hatred of mtv and grunge is 2nd to none I blame them for America never having a proper rave scene in the 90'sSonic Youth, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam all had major label albums and videos on MTV before Nevermind released in Sept 1991 and blew the fuck up. Nirvana didn't have any particular advantages over any of those other bands... beyond writing songs that were simply way catchier and poppier and more appealing to the general public. Nirvana opened the doors, then the other bands were able to make headway.
Before they went mainstream, virtually all of Nirvana's audience were ex-punks in their early 20s like me who had grown up listening to the stuff you mentioned. Most of that stuff were Nirvana's influences. So to say you disliked Nirvana because you liked that earlier stuff is
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