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How Buffys worst season became most important

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Well, Warren's hatred of women was so profound he wanted to make thr most powerful one in the world his sex slave. Tested it on a ex girlfriend, raped her, killed her, killed another woman, and was just...fucking evil. The 'Super villain vs super hero' nerd types don't touch that kind of a misogyny
Shit fills TRP to a tee, lol.

I can see how people can see that as cartoonish even if such psychos exist. But sometimes you need an evil as shit character like that and it can work within the fiction. Just needs a strong writer's hand.

Certainly does mirror real life. Though I feel like those people existed before and are just in the spotlight now. Like Trump supporters.
 

The Wart

Member
Really? I think you're confusing socially awkward but "loveable" nerd who is the ""comedy"" with evil nerd who hates women because he can't get laid. Only the first one ever gets the girl. Even if he creeps on her. Bleh.

Haven't watched Buffy so I can't comment on the character. Just the general trends I see.

Edit: Need to put comedy in double quotes.

I dunno, my impression is that the nerd was either the underdog hero or the hapless comic relief. I can't think of any other pop culture from that era that took seriously the bitterness and misogyny in nerd culture. Heck, I can't think of much that does so today, no one wants to alienate a lucrative audience.

Also, Doublemeat Palace is awesome. The worst part of the season was the incredibly heavy handed magic <-> drugs theme. They played it far too literal for a show that operated on metaphor.
 
The dark Buffy Season 6 themes of female anger, sexual aggression, self-destruction, and frustrated masculinity have cropped up again and again in Noxon’s recent work: the deliciously dark first season of UnREAL and the 2017 Sundance hit To the Bone.

It was a recurring theme in her Buffy work as well. Just look at Beauty and the Beasts or her Oz episodes in season 4. That element of the Trio was total Noxon.

I mean fucking Dead Things alone...

Dead Things was when the Trio accidentally killed Warren's girlfriend and Jonathan and Andrew had (mild?) moral crises over it, while Warren felt nothing, right?

I feel like Jonathan's role in things was interesting as well. I always got the vibe that he wasn't psychotic like Warren, but some naive kid looking for acceptance who got dragged and pressured into things that turned ugly fast. That's something else that can relate pretty hard to nerd culture.

He never got the chance to redeem himself like Andrew did though. What's funny is Andrew's role by the end of the show was basically a lot like Xander's was at the beginning.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I think the Reavers from Firefly were Josh Whedon's far more accurate and preccient portrayal of modern day misogynists and their movement.
 
No, just no. There is no defense for season six even if the nerd trio does seem like proto-gamergate scum in retrospect.

It was such a bad season of television outside of "Once More, With Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa". I mean, the magic as drugs storyline, Spuffy, the horrible lesbian death cliche end of Tara, the penis monster in Doublemeat Palace and so on and so forth. Anything it got right was easily overshadowed by the hundreds of things it got wrong. It's one of the biggest quality declines between seasons that I've ever seen on TV.

UPN probably had a huge case of buyer's remorse after they saw what they actually poached from The WB.
 

AoM

Member
No, just no. There is no defense for season six even if the nerd trio does seem like proto-gamergate scum in retrospect.

It was such a bad season of television outside of "Once More, With Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa". I mean, the magic as drugs storyline, Spuffy, the horrible lesbian death cliche end of Tara, the penis monster in Doublemeat Palace and so on and so forth. Anything it got right was easily overshadowed by the hundreds of things it got wrong. It's one of the biggest quality declines between seasons that I've ever seen on TV.

UPN probably had a huge case of buyer's remorse after they saw what they actually poached from The WB.

I pretty much agree with this (besides S7, the worst season for me), but it has probably my favorite scene in the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBs6x1xRwh8
 

Slygmous

Member
I though this was going to be about season 7...

6 had a solid start with several enjoyable comedy episodes, it got bogged down and dark (in a heavy-handed edgy way) towards the end though. While I understand what the article is getting at, I can't help but feel sad that this is how the trio may appear to new viewers :(
Also people are being a little hard on season 4. Sure it was a bit of a drag on a first viewing, and Adam is a dull villain, but it has some of the most memorable standalone episodes of the series.
 
S6 is a good solid season, but more to the point on Warren, Jonathan, and Andrew. Warren is really the mastermind, and truly despicable. While you get a glimpse into what kind of person he is in S5, he comes off as a bit sympathetic given the circumstances: was insanely lonely, so he did the only thing he thought he could at the time. It's weird and unhealthy, but somewhat sympathetic. Then he meets Katrina and he has no need for April anymore. Again, scummy (which makes the scene at the end of that episode so much more poignant).

Here's where it really kicks in: He attempts to (I can't recall if he actually does) rape Katrina and then murders her when she doesn't give him what she wants. Warren is unquestionably a scumbag. There's not much else to say. He's a horrendously entitled, controlling mysogynist. The interest here is in Andrew and Jonathan, and I think they're basically the reason why opening a dialogue with people is important.

Andrew got caught up in Warren's wake. He's literally in love with Warren, but we also get another sense that he's entitled. I mean, go back to "The Prom"; his brother was also an entitled brat. His plan is "I hate girls because they rejected me, so Imma kill em." Andrew's origin is that he summoned demons to attack the school play because people were mean to him (Maybe. Was never really clear why). Andrew's weak-willed and wants to be liked more than anything.

Jonathan is easily the most likable of the group, considering is arc is the longest in the series. I mean, he just wants people to care about him. At all. "Earshot" literally has him attempting to commit suicide at school just to make a point. Later on down the line, "Superstar" had him create a reality where he was loved and adored. He never came off as entitled, though. Just the desire to be loved. That's it. He doesn't even think he deserves it, he just wants it, and Warren promises to get him that. They want to "rule town" just to do it. Warren wants control, Jonathan wants love, and Andrew just feels he's entitled to some attention.

They're a complex group, and they are important as entities that stand against feminism and females in general. Hell, if BtVS were a more racially diverse series, then they'd most certainly represent an opposition to that as well.

That said, Caleb is still a far bigger misogynist as far as I'm concerned, and thus I think S7 is equally important in that regard.
 

Carcetti

Member
I didn't even remember all of this stuff but the Trio story arc seems even more topical now than then.

Also, thread has a definite lack of Warren-flaying gifs.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Willow's magic addiction was some industrial strength unintentional comedy.
And the season overall deserves every bit of hate that it gets.
 
Willow's magic addiction was some industrial strength unintentional comedy.
And the season overall deserves every bit of hate that it gets.

It's a solid season. Very solid. Not great, but not bad. Just solid. Right in the middle. Plus, the magic addiction didn't come out of nowhere. There was build up, even if it was incredibly heavy-handed.
 
My first thought was Season 4 as well...though that season did have some of the best one-off episodes in the entire run.
Yeah but it was largely inconsistent. Even with some great one-offs, it had some really horrible ones as well. "Where the Wild Things Are" is particularly notable in this regard.
 

Replicant

Member
Also, thread has a definite lack of Warren-flaying gifs.

Bored now.....

tumblr_nhxjk7DzjR1u4nkcto1_500.gif
 

Aske

Member
I didn't even remember all of this stuff but the Trio story arc seems even more topical now than then.

Also, thread has a definite lack of Warren-flaying gifs.

Back then, it was all post-Columbine, if I'm recalling history correctly. Evil nerds weren't using Twitter to shatter women's lives; they were shooting up schools. Warren was the classic and archetypical nerd with a gun, reminiscent of Christian Slater in Heathers.

The evolution of hate-nerds is horrifyingly obvious, and had we known what kinds of tools would be available to them in the 21st century, the current state of affairs would have been completely predictable. While Warren was misogynistic through and through like the little terror cells that formed in the wake of Gamergate, the Trenchcoat Mafia nerds were racist in that Weeaboo-Nazi kind of way.

As relevant as those characters are today, they were just as relevant back then; and there's nothing especially prophetic about the way they were written. They continue to reflect the three ugliest faces of the socially rejected: evil, ignorant, and desperate.
 

Media

Member
Back then, it was all post-Columbine, if I'm recalling history correctly. Evil nerds weren't using Twitter to shatter women's lives; they were shooting up schools. Warren was the classic and archetypical nerd with a gun, reminiscent of Christian Slater in Heathers.

The evolution of hate-nerds is horrifyingly obvious, and had we known what kinds of tools would be available to them in the 21st century, the current state of affairs would have been completely predictable. While Warren was misogynistic through and through like the little terror cells that formed in the wake of Gamergate, the Trenchcoat Mafia nerds were racist in that Weeaboo-Nazi kind of way.

As relevant as those characters are today, they were just as relevant back then; and there's nothing especially prophetic about the way they were written. They continue to reflect the three ugliest faces of the socially rejected: evil, ignorant, and desperate.

I agree and disagree. It's weird.

The episodes Earshot and Graduation Day pt II didn't even air at the right time because of Columbine. Yes, it was the first big school shooting, but it was about outcasts shooting everyone (I recall the Columbine guys specifically targeting religious people) not misogyny. Warren and the Trio were.
 

Maledict

Member
Season 6 was dreadful, simply because the 'drugs are bad, mmkay' message was handled *so* badly it ruined everything else. It clubbed you over the head with the simplicity of the metaphor, and then hit you some more just to make sure you got it.
 

ascii42

Member
Bored now.....

This was a great nod back to vampire Willow from Season 3.

My mom and sister watched the show during its original run, but I only watched sporadically. Mostly stuff in the first couple seasons, but a handful later on, including what turned out to be the finale of Season 6. Knowing what Willow would become gave me an interesting perspective on her early on.
 

The Hobo

Member
Yeah, that scene is hilarious. And it's made even better that it's all happening in the background, with the principal none the wiser.
 

Volimar

Member
Things I liked about season 6:

When they make Warren's ex their sex slave and she comes out of it saying it was rape and the other two were shocked that she thought that. I could just imagine all those teen boys watching, thinking how amazing it would be to make a girl do whatever they wanted only to be slapped in the face with reality.

Willow and Tara was probably the best romantic relationship on the show until Willow started messing with her memory. Speaking of...

Veiny Willow was scary and awesome as a villain.

Xander saving the day with the power of friendship.

The three of them being villains at all as basically a callback to old one off episodes featuring each of them.

Speaking of callbacks. When Andrew later goes on Angel about the deranged slayer that attacks Spike and he and the other slayers stand up to Angel and his crew. Excellent.
 

Krowley

Member
Season 6 is not the worst season. 7 isn't either.

Season 4 is BY FAR the worst season.

And, actually, 4 is the only season that's even "bad."

6 has issues, the metaphor is overdone, it gets heavy handed about everything and overly depressing, but it's still pretty cool and has several amazing episodes. 7 has a few annoying characters but gets better with each viewing, and it's probably my 3rd or 4th favorite season now. The ending delivers in a big way.

4 though... Sometimes I skip 4 when I do a rewatch.

As for the article:

I agree with the general premise that the Trio are kind of a flash to the future. I like the way they started off funny, and then went really dark by the end. They were good villains, very believable villains, and one of the best things about that season.
 
While Season 4 had some issues, it did a great job of transitioning the show from the high school setting of the first 3 years to a college setting and it is BY FAR the funniest season of the seven.
 

Media

Member
Season 6 is not the worst season. 7 isn't either.

Season 4 is BY FAR the worst season.

And, actually, 4 is the only season that's even "bad."

6 has issues, the metaphor is overdone, it gets heavy handed about everything and overly depressing, but it's still pretty cool and has several amazing episodes. 7 has a few annoying characters but gets better with each viewing, and it's probably my 3rd or 4th favorite season now. The ending delivers in a big way.

4 though... Sometimes I skip 4 when I do a rewatch.

As for the article:

I agree with the general premise that the Trio are kind of a flash to the future. I like the way they started off funny, and then went really dark by the end. They were good villains, very believable villains, and one of the best things about that season.

I hate Riley enough I would skip four if not for Something Blue, Hush, and Restless.
While Season 4 had some issues, it did a great job of transitioning the show from the high school setting of the first 3 years to a college setting and it is BY FAR the funniest season of the seven.
I wouldn't say it's the funniest, but I agree overall with this. Wait, damn it, you are right I think it was. It also had Fear Itself.
 

ascii42

Member
I hate Riley enough I would skip four if not for Something Blue, Hush, and Restless.

Riley's best scene was his first one, which he says "I'm sorry, I've forgotten my manners in all the concussion" after Buffy accidentally drops a book on his head.
 
While Season 4 had some issues, it did a great job of transitioning the show from the high school setting of the first 3 years to a college setting and it is BY FAR the funniest season of the seven.

Yeah, 4 is definitely a transitional season in many ways. It's the season that made Spike part of the main cast and that's one of the most significant changes that ever happened to the show.

Plus losing Oz, Anya and Tara joining... Giles and Xander's arcs for the rest of the show are basically set up there too, and Restless set the tone for season 5 and everything after.

It really sucks when you think about it. There is such good stuff in season 4 and it really does have some GOAT individual episodes (Hush, Restless, Fear Itself, Something Blue, Superstar is pretty funny) but the Initiative stuff is so lame and bogs the whole thing down. What was really telling is that IIRC, actual arc episodes don't even make up half the season.
 

Aske

Member
I agree and disagree. It's weird.

The episodes Earshot and Graduation Day pt II didn't even air at the right time because of Columbine. Yes, it was the first big school shooting, but it was about outcasts shooting everyone (I recall the Columbine guys specifically targeting religious people) not misogyny. Warren and the Trio were.

I remember a survivor saying "then he shot the black kid...because he was black." Religious people primarily though, for sure. The "outcasts vs everyone" mindset was muddied by other influences they gravitated towards - Marilyn Manson got the blame for the anti-religious stuff. You're right that there didn't seem to be a vein of misogyny twisted into their tapestry of blame.

And of course you're not wrong about The Trio. I don't know if we'd ever seen misogynistic evil nerds depicted like that before. I guess my point is that writing Warren as aggressively misogynistic and the other two as ignorant perpetuators of rape culture made sense and was natural at the time based on what we all knew about angry downtrodden nerds, rather than because Whedon could see something rotten at the core of nerd culture that was invisible to everyone else. Not that it matters that much either way; it was still groundbreaking stuff.
 

Media

Member
I remember a survivor saying "then he shot the black kid...because he was black." Religious people primarily though, for sure. The "outcasts vs everyone" mindset was muddied by other influences they gravitated towards - Marilyn Manson got the blame for the anti-religious stuff. You're right that there didn't seem to be a vein of misogyny twisted into their tapestry of blame.

And of course you're not wrong about The Trio. I don't know if we'd ever seen misogynistic evil nerds depicted like that before. I guess my point is that writing Warren as aggressively misogynistic and the other two as ignorant perpetuators of rape culture made sense and was natural at the time based on what we all knew about angry downtrodden nerds, rather than because Whedon could see something rotten at the core of nerd culture that was invisible to everyone else. Not that it matters that much either way; it was still groundbreaking stuff.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, thanks for replying. It's nice to hear from people from the same Era:p
 

jstripes

Banned
Yeah this is a bit of revisionist history. Joss Whedon didn't see the future at all. Nerds looking for revenge on society is the oldest trope in the book. What you know now as "Gamergate" has always existed. You could even argue the show in itself largely existed in response to them in the first place.

It's almost like people forgot about Columbine or something.
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Was it season 6 that had the episode where Buffy is having a groundhog day moment in the magic shop because the nerds cast a spell on her? Loved that episode.
 

ascii42

Member
Was it season 6 that had the episode where Buffy is having a groundhog day moment in the magic shop because the nerds cast a spell on her? Loved that episode.

"Life Serial"

Yeah, but that was part of that obnoxious plot point that Buffy had to be a mom to Dawn, be the Slayer, and either hold a job or go to college, because there's mortgage payments she's solely responsible for, meanwhile Willow and Tara have been living at Buffy's house seemingly for free (they mention her mom's life insurance had run out)
 

AdaWong

Junior Member
Season 6 was honestly my favorite. The twist where the Big Bad happened to be Dark Willow instead of Warren was well played I felt. A season that was truly head of its time!
 
Season 6 is not the worst season. 7 isn't either.

Season 4 is BY FAR the worst season.

And, actually, 4 is the only season that's even "bad."

6 has issues, the metaphor is overdone, it gets heavy handed about everything and overly depressing, but it's still pretty cool and has several amazing episodes. 7 has a few annoying characters but gets better with each viewing, and it's probably my 3rd or 4th favorite season now. The ending delivers in a big way.

4 though... Sometimes I skip 4 when I do a rewatch.

As for the article:

I agree with the general premise that the Trio are kind of a flash to the future. I like the way they started off funny, and then went really dark by the end. They were good villains, very believable villains, and one of the best things about that season.

I hate Riley enough I would skip four if not for Something Blue, Hush, and Restless.

I wouldn't say it's the funniest, but I agree overall with this. Wait, damn it, you are right I think it was. It also had Fear Itself.

Riley's best scene was his first one, which he says "I'm sorry, I've forgotten my manners in all the concussion" after Buffy accidentally drops a book on his head.

Yeah, 4 is definitely a transitional season in many ways. It's the season that made Spike part of the main cast and that's one of the most significant changes that ever happened to the show.

Plus losing Oz, Anya and Tara joining... Giles and Xander's arcs for the rest of the show are basically set up there too, and Restless set the tone for season 5 and everything after.

It really sucks when you think about it. There is such good stuff in season 4 and it really does have some GOAT individual episodes (Hush, Restless, Fear Itself, Something Blue, Superstar is pretty funny) but the Initiative stuff is so lame and bogs the whole thing down. What was really telling is that IIRC, actual arc episodes don't even make up half the season.
Y'all agreeing with me on S4 being the worst, but none of you are citing the Faith episodes as being some of the best of the season. True enough that the best part of those are the two episodes they lead into on Angel, but they're still dope.

"Into the Woods" is also the only reason I need to say that Riley's arc is completely worth it. Xander putting Buffy in her place never gets old.
 
Hey I liked season 4

Spike getting captured by the US government was good fun

e7822ee619b2998c4335edb0deb94ee5.jpg
S4 is fun on a certain level, but what kills it for me is the consistency. The themes involving belonging and adulthood are great, but it's botched by having to slog through a largely mixed bag of episodes. It's just so inconsistent.
 

Aske

Member
Season 4 will always be my favourite just for the vibe and the setting. I think of it like season 1 of Buffy TNG. We were pre-Dawn and the show getting really dark, and it was the final season where things were still bright and optimistic. I love the direction the show went in season 5, and the the whole Dawn subplot was genius, but I still don't like her as a character, and I much prefer the atmosphere of seasons 1-4.
 

Media

Member
Season 4 will always be my favourite just for the vibe and the setting. I think of it like season 1 of Buffy TNG. We were pre-Dawn and the show getting really dark, and it was the final season where things were still bright and optimistic. I love the direction the show went in season 5, and the the whole Dawn subplot was genius, but I still don't like her as a character, and I much prefer the atmosphere of seasons 1-4.
I I loved how the dawn sub plot played out. Especially the way we all knew something was so fucked up and the characters were acting like nothing was wrong and that Dawn had been there the whole time. It was so confusing and amazing. I don't think any other show could have pulled that off.
 
Y'all agreeing with me on S4 being the worst, but none of you are citing the Faith episodes as being some of the best of the season. True enough that the best part of those are the two episodes they lead into on Angel, but they're still dope.

"Into the Woods" is also the only reason I need to say that Riley's arc is completely worth it. Xander putting Buffy in her place never gets old.

I forgot about the Faith two-parter. When she and Buffy switch bodies, that was a good one.

S4 is fun on a certain level, but what kills it for me is the consistency. The themes involving belonging and adulthood are great, but it's botched by having to slog through a largely mixed bag of episodes. It's just so inconsistent.

The Initiative stuff is just so muddled. You can tell they're leading up to Lindsey Crouse being the villain, which could've been cool, but then she gets killed off and Adam shows up 3/4 through and just kind of becomes the big bad by default.

Also I was always bitter about the Initiative stealing all the spotlight in Oz's last episode. :|

I I loved how the dawn sub plot played out. Especially the way we all knew something was so fucked up and the characters were acting like nothing was wrong and that Dawn had been there the whole time. It was so confusing and amazing. I don't think any other show could have pulled that off.

Season 5 is one of the best. 2 and 3 are still GOAT overall, but 5 has to be one of the most consistent in quality. Dawn's intro episode was really funny.
 

kunonabi

Member
I I loved how the dawn sub plot played out. Especially the way we all knew something was so fucked up and the characters were acting like nothing was wrong and that Dawn had been there the whole time. It was so confusing and amazing. I don't think any other show could have pulled that off.

I thought the addition of Dawn was pretty inspired. Honestly season 5 could have been amazing had they gotten a different actress for Glory.
 
Season 6 was the most depressing season, like forreals.

Dealing with death and coming back to life to work at a bad fast food job trying to support your younger sibling because mom died and dads nowhere to be found...
 

Taruranto

Member
But Buffy's worst season is 4.

Also 6 has Once More With Feeling which makes it Top-Tier television by default and I don't even like musicals.
 

Goodstyle

Member
Say what you will about Riley, but his speech in As You Were was great... so great that Spike straight up rips it off in his "hell of a woman" speech in S7. No joke, he just steals it, and Spike's is way more popular since it's Spike.
 
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