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[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Gun-related suicides shouldn't be exempt from being used as an example of why the risks of city gun ownership outweigh the very, very rare benefit.

You seem very desperate to make every single method of killing ones different from a gun. You need to accept its just a tool. It's not this magical device separate from everything else.

Besides who cares if a person wants to go that way, who are you to say their wrong?

No I don't, I believe they should be able to see Doctor Kevorkian and discuss their options. Once again, removing the chance for impulsive, drunk or drug-fuelled suicides.

It's their choice, so you do favor government control of a persons decision to end their life then.

What about people who committed suicide who were stuck in the WTC, where those improper impulse suicides in your eyes?

 

[areal]

Some stats from the CDC are pretty disturbing.

In 1999, 489 children under 15 were were killed by guns in the US.

In 1997, 2514 children under 15 were wounded by guns in the US.

Between 1990 to 1995, 86 percent of all children killed by guns in a group of 26 industrialized countries were killed in the US.

Old data, but I doubt things have changed much since then. It's obviously harder to work out how many children are "saved" by guns. Does anyone think it's more than one per day?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Some stats from the CDC are pretty disturbing.

In 1999, 489 children under 15 were were killed by guns in the US.

In 1997, 2514 children under 15 were wounded by guns in the US.

Between 1990 to 1995, 86 percent of all children killed by guns in a group of 26 industrialized countries were killed in the US.

Old data, but I doubt things have changed much since then. It's obviously harder to work out how many children are "saved" by guns. Does anyone think it's more than one per day?

Those are pretty small numbers considering the size of the United States and its population.

 

[mcrae]

You seem very desperate to make every single method of killing ones different from a gun. You need to accept its just a tool. It's not this magical device separate from everything else.

Besides who cares if a person wants to go that way, who are you to say their wrong?



It's their choice, so you do favor government control of a persons decision to end their life then.

What about people who committed suicide who were stuck in the WTC, where those improper impulse suicides in your eyes?

im curious whether you know who doctor kevorkian is or not?

Those are pretty small numbers considering the size of the United States and its population.

you cant ignore percentages though.

 

[areal]

Those are pretty small numbers considering the size of the United States and its population.

The rate of gun deaths among children is 12 times higher per capita in the US than the average rate of the other 25 countries surveyed.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

The rate of gun deaths among children is 12 times higher per capita in the US than the average rate of the other 25 countries surveyed.

Out of curiosity, how much higher is the rate of deaths among children in the US? I wouldn't be surprised if that was ALSO 12 times higher.

 

[Fusebox]

What about people who committed suicide who were stuck in the WTC, where those improper impulse suicides in your eyes?

Bloody hell, really? That's an argument for gun ownership? Fuck me Manos...

Out of curiosity, how much higher is the rate of deaths among children in the US? I wouldn't be surprised if that was ALSO 12 times higher.

"Per Capita".

 

[Ken Masters]

perfect

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Bloody hell, really? That's an argument for gun ownership? Fuck me Manos...
.

No thanks, I'm married.

 

[areal]

Out of curiosity, how much higher is the rate of deaths among children in the US? I wouldn't be surprised if that was ALSO 12 times higher.

According to this data, the rate of homicide is five times higher whereas the rate of gun-related homicide is 16 times higher. The rate of suicide is two times higher whereas the rate of gun-related suicide is 11 times higher. All for children under 15. Again, this is old, but it's not irrelevant.

 

[mcrae]

No thanks, I'm married.

ill take your ignoring my post as you not knowing who kevorkian is then

 

[kamspy]

There's always a shitty ending about the gun owner getting arrested and burried in legal bullshit.

 

[alphaNoid]

lololol at people who think they stand a chance against gang members.

A trained gunman who spends hours at the range with his side arm, most certainly has every advantage against a group of untrained thugs who hold their weapons sideways.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

According to this data, the rate of homicide is five times higher whereas the rate of gun-related homicide is 16 times higher. The rate of suicide is two times higher whereas the rate of gun-related suicide is 11 times higher. All for children under 15. Again, this is old, but it's not irrelevant.

So is it 12 times higher or 16 times higher? Still, I am (pleasantly) surprised the overall rate is not higher. Still, the issue with the statistic is, how much o those gun-related homicides would still be homicides without the guns? I honestly don't know if it would be THAT different. Maybe it would, but that's the problem with trying to do the math on the gun issue.

 

[Myansie]

Any actual proof of that?

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones always gets the story.

Serious news reports on that site, copied and pasted from the links on the right handside

From Our News Partners

Why Friday has couples clamoring to the chapels
Officers kill dog that bit child's face
Column: University's 'between the palms' slogan has unintended connection to gay travel site
White House: U.S. not hiding ET
MC Hammer takes to mic in Oakland Occupy protest


Very credible source you've given us there Manos, it's one step off a tabloid. MC Hammer at Occupy Oakland for the win!

 

[areal]

So is it 12 times higher or 16 times higher?

Twelve times higher overall, for homicide, suicide, accidental, and "intention undetermined".

Still, the issue with the statistic is, how much o those gun-related homicides would still be homicides without the guns?

That's fair enough. But the rate of unintentional deaths in the US is higher than the rate of deaths by all causes in half of the other countries.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Slashing your wrist still takes a long time and gives people plenty of time to change their mind. You'll notice very few suicides are done by jumping out of a building, because not everyone lives in a tall building. See point 1 about having enough time to sober the fuck up.

Gun-related suicides shouldn't be exempt from being used as an example of why the risks of city gun ownership outweigh the very, very rare benefit.



No I don't, I believe they should be able to see Doctor Kevorkian and discuss their options. Once again, removing the chance for impulsive, drunk or drug-fuelled suicides.

hardly anyone "changes" their mind once they are on the rail to suicide. mental health problems isn't just something you can turn off.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

ill take your ignoring my post as you not knowing who kevorkian is then

You mean Doctor Jack Kevorkian Dr. Death who assisted in the suicides of numerous terminally ill patients, eventually sentence to prison for his participating in one that was videotaped and aired on tv.

Yeah, no clue. lol

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones always gets the story.

Serious news reports on that site, copied and pasted from the links on the right handside

From Our News Partners

Why Friday has couples clamoring to the chapels
Officers kill dog that bit child's face
Column: University's 'between the palms' slogan has unintended connection to gay travel site
White House: U.S. not hiding ET
MC Hammer takes to mic in Oakland Occupy protest


Very credible source you've given us there Manos, it's one step off a tabloid. MC Hammer at Occupy Oakland for the win!

So your answer is no, you have no evidence to refute this, correct?

 

[meadowrag]

Bloody hell, really? That's an argument for gun ownership? Fuck me Manos...

No it isn't, but to be fair, suicide by firearm certainly isn't an argument against gun ownership either.

 

[areal]

hardly anyone "changes" their mind once they are on the rail to suicide. mental health problems isn't just something you can turn off.

"Hardly anyone" doesn't sound right to me, but I don't know. The problem with the "gun is just a tool" argument is that it's the most effective method of suicide. Self-poisoning and cutting are the most common ways to attempt suicide and they just don't work that well. The success rates are less than one percent and less than three percent, respectively. Suffocation has a 70 percent success rate. Suicide by gunshot has an 85 percent success rate. If people are forced to use another method to kill themselves they're more likely to survive and get the chance to seek help and hopefully recover. If everyone in a given year who attempted suicide by gunshot was forced to try suffocation instead, around three thousand more people would survive the first attempt. Way, way more if the distribution of attempts matched the current distribution (minus gunshot). Even if many of them end up killing themselves anyway, the number of lives saved wouldn't be insignificant.

 

[sangreal]

Old data, but I doubt things have changed much since then. It's obviously harder to work out how many children are "saved" by guns. Does anyone think it's more than one per day?

I'm pretty sure the reason we have gun rights in the US is not because people think it will save more children than not having gun rights.

I don't have much of an opinion on the matter and I don't own any guns (I don't even know the laws where I live), but I can understand the liberty argument. It was actually on display recently with the crackdowns on the Occupy protests

 

[Fusebox]

No thanks, I'm married.

Dammit.

 

[areal]

I'm pretty sure the reason we have gun rights in the US is not because people think it will save more children than not having gun rights.

Obviously. But it's a common argument that people should be allowed to carry weapons to defende themselves and their family. The OP wants to know if "people saying they need guns for 'protection' is a bad excuse".

 

[Zeke]

Can be done with non-lethal firearms or keeping your pistol at the range.

oh how I miss the laughing smiley

 

[Volimar]

Probably because terrible accidents or cases of 'misuse' are far, far more likely to occur for people who own firearms than any likelihood that said person will have the firearm at the moment he or she becomes the victim of a crime, and also be able to properly use said firearm to deter or stop the criminal.

Agreed. Most statistics show that the likelihood of a firearm wounding or killing an innocent person is far more likely than the amount of times it will be used against a perpetrator of a crime.

How about me, earlier in this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32504310&postcount=18

219 justifiable homicides with firearms by private citizens in 2008.

Here's another one:

592 accidental gun deaths in the US in 2008.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

Also 18,223 gun suicides, but that's a whole other can of worms.

This doesn't even cover people that were accidentally wounded. It's scary.

Guns aren't going away. But I do believe that firearms should be more strictly regulated (gun shows, resales need to be covered), owners should have to pass a mandatory safety course, and guns should be forced to be kept secured with gun locks or unlocked at all times (preferably both). Unfortunately, there's not much we can do about people with such lax attitudes toward firearm safety.

 

[Myansie]

So your answer is no, you have no evidence to refute this, correct?

And you have evidence to prove it's true? Are you seriously defending this website that writes about ETs in the White House? Or is it because they've posted an article that backs up your point of view? You do have an agenda as evidenced by your avatar.

If the story is true, I'd love to know the background, because that is an extreme situation. There are far more poignant solutions for society at large than to arm college kids with guns, that article doesn't give me a lot to work with though. But for all my researching the only people reporting it is that news source and gun sites quoting that article. Show me a legit news source and I'll give it credit. As it stands it's bullshit.

You might be convinced Manos, but I'd be surprised if anyone else on Gaf is.

Edit: I shouldn't say bullshit, because honestly there is probably some truth to it. The article is so loaded in creating a narrative it's difficult to assess where the bullshit ends and the truth begins.

 

[Shake Appeal]

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

 

[Flo_Evans]

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

That is interesting, but it doesn't really differentiate between people legally carrying guns and criminals.

 

[mcrae]

That is interesting, but it doesn't really differentiate between people legally carrying guns and criminals.

im pretty sure the number of non-criminals carrying guns is at the very least equal to the number of criminals carrying guns. theres what, 10 guns per person in the US?

 

[Blackace]

A trained gunman who spends hours at the range with his side arm, most certainly has every advantage against a group of untrained thugs who hold their weapons sideways.

lol.. When I was younger and around them.. gang members could shoot. Don't think posers and TV is what happens.

 

[G.O.O.]

how come i never see any threads about instances where concealed firearms saved lives

Guns aren't made to save lives.

 

[travisbickle]

The psychology behind carrying concealed weapons is the scary part. How could you feel safe in an environment where anyone can carry a concealed weapon? because you can carry a concealed weapon? Like the banned poster said, in an distasteful manner, are you gonna shoot someone because you think they are going to shoot you?

 

[Mortrialus]

Statistics of accidents versus saving people's lives with guns are not good bedfellows.

This. More people are struck by lightning in the United States than civilians shooting criminals in the act of committing a serious crime.

 

[SpacLock]

I don't know where you've been for the last few years, but the news is always negative. There's very rarely a positive story on the news, let alone one about guns.

Edit:
I guess guns are never a good thing though, well, other than hunting for food.

I do believe in the rights we have to carry concealed weapons though. Even if you never hear good stories about it. It would be absolutely dreadful to be unable to stop a sickening crime like rape because you were underpowered when you came across it. But this argument could go on forever, so I'll just step aside for the rest of this discussion.

 

[Timedog]

God I bet it feels awesome to just shoot guns like this, just fucking firing away like an asshole. I should probably never own a firearm. My wild fingers would just want to be firing that shit.

I don't think anyone should own guns sans for hunters, policeman, etc.

 

[jaxword]

lololol at any gang members who think they stand a chance against me.

This is the most embarrassingly INTERNET TOUGH GUY post I've read in ages.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

lol.. When I was younger and around them.. gang members could shoot. Don't think posers and TV is what happens.

Not these guys. Lol

The psychology behind carrying concealed weapons is the scary part. How could you feel safe in an environment where anyone can carry a concealed weapon? because you can carry a concealed weapon? Like the banned poster said, in an distasteful manner, are you gonna shoot someone because you think they are going to shoot you?

Sounds like someone has an irrational feel of guns, perhaps because they've never actually been around them.

 

[Boogie]

When we butcher steer or hogs I just use a 22lr pistol and shoot them between the eyes. Death is instant and clean, anything more powerful would make a mess.

*shrug*

Okay. I've just heard a bunch of horror stories from rural cops about the frustration of trying to put down injured deer/cattle/etc. with their sidearms when they didn't have a shotgun or rifle around.

 

[Evil Benius]

The psychology behind carrying concealed weapons is the scary part. How could you feel safe in an environment where anyone can carry a concealed weapon? because you can carry a concealed weapon? Like the banned poster said, in an distasteful manner, are you gonna shoot someone because you think they are going to shoot you?

Because in general anyone who is legally carrying concealed is not someone I am going to worry about. Time and time again it has been stated that those looking to commit a crime with a firearm are not going to go out of their way to go through legal channels to carry legally. If you already are willing to commit attempted murder I seriously doubt breaking any carry laws bothers you.

 

[remnant]

Most of the people who cause gun violence are professional criminals. This phobia about guns is foolish, and in my opinion is far more driven by fear and distrust of things they see connected to political views they don't like.

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

It really upsets me when people don't use the proper form of the gif.

 

[Fari]

lololol at any gang members who think they stand a chance against me.

 

[Monroeski]

Ironically, he has a real-life law enforcement qualification. And viewing that shaky shooting, I sure hope he never discharges a weapon in the line of duty.

 

[scar tissue]

because its much less common.

This.

Those stories are

Spoiler

concealed

Bravo.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

GAF gun threads are always a carousel of shit.

 

[jaxword]

GAF gun threads are always a carousel of shit.

Any thread with internet tough guys telling others they're just scared wusses should embarrass everyone collectively.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The rate of gun deaths among children is 12 times higher per capita in the US than the average rate of the other 25 countries surveyed.

A heavy cost....

 

[Timedog]

It really upsets me when people don't use the proper form of the gif.

Nah, the kids one was funny the first couple times I saw, but the original just kicks some major butt every time big time. Makes me want to just start shooting guns any which way.

 

[The Technomancer]

That is interesting, but it doesn't really differentiate between people legally carrying guns and criminals.

You missed the crucial bit:

When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

Pulling a gun on a criminal makes them more likely to shoot you. Which, honestly, isn't surprising in the least. Everyone seems to think that criminals are cowards who will flee at the sight of a gun, or that you will somehow manage to surprise them by drawing and aiming without them noticing, as opposed to the criminal thinking the exact same way as the victim when he sees you draw. Both parties are then thinking "oh shit, this guy is armed, my hesitation to shoot him has just gone down"

Pulling a gun raises the stakes. It changes the entire dynamic of the encounter, and according to that study, not favorably

 

[travisbickle]

Sounds like someone has an irrational feel of guns, perhaps because they've never actually been around them.

I don't understand the need for a gun, it's the opposite of an irrational fear. An irrational fear would be someone who carries a gun under the 0.1% chance they will be confronted by a dangerous criminal with a gun, even though there's a higher chance the gun owner will end up blowing a family member's head off.