How KOTOR2 attempted to destroy the Star Wars universe from within (article)

S

shiftplusone

Member
I searched for this and didn't find it

I thought it was super interesting. as someone who isn't a huge fan of star wars for precisely the reasons outlined in this article, KOTOR 2 managed to be my favorite piece of Star Wars media by far.

Also i've never posted an article here so sorry if I grab the wrong parts or too much or whatever

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/The-Jedi-Exile-and-bare-life-in-Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

Knights of the Old Republic is a game, in other words, that believes in Star Wars, in what Star Wars is and stands for. The simple storytelling that celebrates when Luke beats the bad guys and blows up the Death Star while ignoring the possibility that a lot of innocent Stormjanitors were killed in the process. That worships the Force, the mystical framework holding together the galaxy while giving the greatest heroes and villains incredible power to reshape it. That believes in happy endings and dancing, fuzzy little bear people who can hold their own against a galactic monolith like the Empire.

Knights of the Old Republic II, even played in the “lightest,” most heroic way possible, doesn’t seem particularly invested in any of that. No one gets a happy ending, and the Force is as much of a threat as a promise. Knights of the Old Republic II, in short, doesn’t believe in Star Wars.
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And instead of playing as a returning hero or a hopeful outsider, working their way to success, you are an exile in the most absolute sense, alienated and forced to stand alone.
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The subject position of exile, what it means, how it comes to be, is a complicated beast to unravel. By its very nature, it’s hard to talk about. After all, how can you, from within a culture, speak to a position that inherently suggests a separation from that culture?
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Here, Kreia’s true intentions are revealed. Using the Exile’s wound in the Force as a starting point, Kreia wants to create further wounds in the Force, damaging it directly, with the ultimate goal of killing it entirely. No more Force, and without it, she reasons, no more Jedi, no more Sith, no more war. Where the Jedi see a threat, Kreia sees a revolutionary opportunity, a chance to break the galaxy free of the recurring cycle of cataclysmic ideological warfare. A chance to burn it all down and start over, to rethink all categories, to imagine the world without the Force—without ideology.
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gut my mythology if old
 
This is why KotOR II was so interesting.
 
KOTOR 2 is one of the most underrated games of all time. It always gets mentioned on big websites as the red headed stepchild of the Star Wars franchise, while in fact it's the best SW game ever.
 
KOTOR2 is the best piece of Star Wars media ever made thanks to its incredible writing. Sadly we will never see anything like it again. :(
 
This is why KotOR 2 is edit: kinda mediocre

Well, that and it being half completed and full of dull characters. And taking the already poor combat and making it more tediously fiddly.
 
I believe it. The whole 'Kreia trying to show us The Force might not be a benevolent entity/construct' goes against everything Jorge stood for.

It was...an interesting concept.

I do like how KOTOR gave the Sith a badass Oath that kinda put them in a 'Chaotic' light as opposed to 'neerr, we're evil' role.
 
CloudWolf said:
KOTOR 2 is one of the most underrated games of all time. It always gets mentioned on big websites as the red headed stepchild of the Star Wars franchise, while in fact it's the best SW game ever.
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Not really, the beginning of that game is terrible and when it launched it was so ridiculously buggy that you need a mod to fix it, the ending as well was extremely underwhelming.

I did somewhat enjoy it though and I do appreciate what it was doing but at the time when I first played it I kinda wanted a follow up to Kotor with it's same tones of adventure.
 
Knights of the Old Republic II, even played in the “lightest,” most heroic way possible, doesn’t seem particularly invested in any of that. No one gets a happy ending, and the Force is as much of a threat as a promise. Knights of the Old Republic II, in short, doesn’t believe in Star Wars.
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Sounds way more interesting than most Star Wars dreck.
 
It added grey in an otherwise black and white universe, to which it deserves to be commended for and deserved better than its 18 month turnaround and slashed ending.
 
On my phone, someone please link the Scorchy lp. Kotor 2 is highly subversive of Star Wars lore, and that it's what makes the story so great. Kreia is an extremely impressive character. The Sith lords are conceptually interesting and highly menacing.

Bioware could never.

The game itself is too broken to recommend and time constraints interfered with large sections of the game being cut in part or whole. The promise of what the game could have been is far greater than what it actually is. The Scorchy lp is honestly amazing for filling in the gaps and providing commentary and analysis.
 
The writing in Kotor 2 was great, other than that I think it was slightly inferior to the original in every way. I loved the dark hopeless atmosphere in the game but the huge chucks of missing game were noticeable towards the end and it really had an impact imo.
 
It's an interesting piece, but he's really stretching the Agamben metaphor to encompass something it doesn't quite fit. Much of Homo Sacer is based around the legal ramifications of the relationship between the "sovereign" and the "bandit" in ways that don't quite fit the Exile.

Nevertheless he's right about why KOTOR 2 is interesting, considering its disillusion with the Star Wars mythology. I always thought where they went with it was a bit stupid, but having Kreia develop a nuanced solution to the Jedi/Sith wars would have taken much more dialogue and time than they had. If a nuanced solution is even possible, of course. As it is Kreia has a lot of interesting points to make but her problem solving is simplistic. She's a better philosopher than revolutionary, unless anyone here seriously thinks destroying the Force solves anything.

I always thought KOTOR 1 and 2 were a good summary of the strengths and weaknesses of each developer. The plot in KOTOR 1 is standard (besides the famous twist) but the characters are well-developed with a variety of voices. KOTOR 2 is more intellectually focused and interested in its characters as a means if displaying the writers' thoughts on the setting, but they fall a bit flat as characters themselves. I can't really choose which style I like more in this case.
 
I really enjoyed KOTOR 2. I liked the first more, but overall, I thought 2 was very good. The rushed ending bothered me the most, but I thought the story was very good. Very compelling, mature concept for the light hearted nature of most of Star Wars. I think Obsidian is a painfully underrated developer. I wish they would partner up with a company that has a budget, though.
 
seph1roth said:
So trying to give some logic to the universe...is considered as a way to destroy it.

Ok...
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I think you misunderstood

ThoseDeafMutes said:
On my phone, someone please link the Scorchy lp. Kotor 2 is highly subversive of Star Wars lore, and that it's what makes the story so great. Kreia is an extremely impressive character. The Sith lords are conceptually interesting and highly menacing.

Bioware could never.

The game itself is too broken to recommend and time constraints interfered with large sections of the game being cut in part or whole. The promise of what the game could have been is far greater than what it actually is. The Scorchy lp is honestly amazing for filling in the gaps and providing commentary and analysis.
Click to expand...

Markitron said:
The writing in Kotor 2 was great, other than that I think it was slightly inferior to the original in every way. I loved the dark hopeless atmosphere in the game but the huge chucks of missing game were noticeable towards the end and it really had an impact imo.
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For sure. I haven't kept up with what the Restoration mods have done for the game. I know they were looking really good last glance. I am lead to believe there was no "missing ending" or cut content, and that they were time constrained on that and did the best they could so not sure what could be "restored" in that area without ACTUAL new content being replaced.

But the ideas and the "lets actually dig into star wars as a piece of art to critique" vs the "we love star wars lets make a star wars" that the two KOTOR games both deal with I think is super fantastic.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
On my phone, someone please link the Scorchy lp. Kotor 2 is highly subversive of Star Wars lore, and that it's what makes the story so great. Kreia is an extremely impressive character. The Sith lords are conceptually interesting and highly menacing.

Bioware could never.

The game itself is too broken to recommend and time constraints interfered with large sections of the game being cut in part or whole. The promise of what the game could have been is far greater than what it actually is. The Scorchy lp is honestly amazing for filling in the gaps and providing commentary and analysis.
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Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II by Scorchy

I'm going to give it a thorough read later today after such a glowing recommendation.
 
Chris Avellone once said he disliked the Star Wars universe, so it's no surprise he went against the grain. He also happened to make one of Star Wars' best works, imo. Easily one of the most underrated games of all time.

How I wish Obsidian could get a chance to remake the game with all new graphics and with everything originally cut from the project. I imagine it would sell well.
 
The only thing I disliked about KotoR II is that
Everyone bound to the Exile have the potential to be jedi
Star Wars has run this into the ground hard I can forgive KotoR II though since I love it so much. I might have to replay it some time this year, truly an excellent game that shames the original in every way possible and I never even played with the the mod to patch in the lost content.
 
Obsidian's handling of the Star Wars lore makes it one of my favourite piece of the (old)EU. Trying to give more depth to the series beyond "Good vs Evil/Light vs Dark," was quite refreshing.
 
Personally I found it too cynical for it's own good. Too 1-sided without giving proper chances to argue in favor of my light-sided character's actions.I felt like I was the only sane man surrounded by aggressive idiots.
 
KOTOR2 was pretty awesome with its handling of the Force, and Kreia is one of the best written game characters out there.

It's been over 10 yrs since Chris Avellone has been lead designer for a game. That's way too long ;____;
 
Llyranor said:
KOTOR2 was pretty awesome with its handling of the Force, and Kreia is one of the best written game characters out there.

It's been over 10 yrs since Chris Avellone has been lead designer for a game. That's way too long ;____;
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I believe he was lead design on Alpha Protocol, right?
 
Was it KOTOR 1 or 2 where the Jedi Council realizes that its methods of teaching may share the blame in why so many of their students eschewed their advice and joined the Mandalore wars? Was just as relevant when applied to any Jedi-turned-dark-side story.
 
Raphael said:
Pillars did really well I think, so they should have room to breathe.
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Pillars' success is probably enough to ensure the same team can continue to make more Pillars content (expansion, sequels, etc). But I believe that team was only around 25 people max. So Obsidian probably still needs some "major" projects if they want to continue to stay their current size. However since I don't think I've read about any layoffs on their end since completing South Park I'm assuming they have something or things in the pipeline already that just haven't been announced. They couldn't support a studio of that size for a year plus otherwise.
 
I loved how it added so much subjectivity to a world that is too often described in terms of black and white. I think the Star Wars universe would benefit from more of that.
 
I find the plot of kotor2 to be very intriguing but I couldn't get into the game because of the characters/companions. That said the star wars universe is far from black and white if you know where to look. There's plenty of novels that deals with corruption and grey zones.
 
to imagine the world without the Force—without ideology.
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On the surface that looks so smart and poetic but if you think for 2 seconds, it's stupid. All the non force people have ideologies and will fight for that too. The whole rebel side was fought without any input from Jedi. The "squabbling delegates" in the galactic senate were constantly fighting without any Jedi v Sith war going on.

Star Wars is a money making franchise for capitalists. If the war ever ends, so will the money. Thus, Star Wars will never end. The perpetual war to bring in more cash. The cycle is; make 3 movies one side wins. Wait a decade. Make 3 movies one side wins. repeat.
 
Natureboy99 said:
On the surface that looks so smart and poetic but if you think for 2 seconds, it's stupid. All the non force people have ideologies and will fight for that too. The whole rebel side was fought without any input from Jedi. The "squabbling delegates" in the galactic senate were constantly fighting without any Jedi v Sith war going on.

Star Wars is a money making franchise for capitalists. If the war ever ends, so will the money. Thus, Star Wars will never end. The perpetual war to bring in more cash. The cycle is; make 3 movies one side wins. Wait a decade. Make 3 movies one side wins. repeat.
Click to expand...

Another way to completely miss the point.
 
I adored KOTOR 2, such a great game. First one was great too but I played the second one first and preferred it, first time I played it properly I more or less sat down and played until I finished it, I stayed up for 2 days, and when I finished I immediately started a new game, though eventually I had to sleep starting to feel my heart rate raise to unhealthy degrees

Llyranor said:
Oh yeah,I forgot that game existed
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It's best that way
 
She would be killing everything in the universe, not just the force. Nihilus consumed the force, and every living thing died because of him.

Kreia was batshit insane.
 
I just could not get into KOTOR2. Bland characters, boring worlds, bad voice acting. Writing and RPG elements were decent, but not nearly as great as it gets credit for.
 
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