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[Guilty_AI]

I've come to feel that way because we've been throwing the name "indie" on pretty much all games that don't belong to a major company. From a solo dev making something by himself on his mom's basement with rpg maker, to 50 people big studios with a budget on the millions. I don't think they should be thrown together in the same category.

This is indie:



These are also indie:




And apparently even this sometimes is considered indie:



Yet, this is not indie:



Indie used to refer to just the first type of game i've shown above, basically a solo dev with a shoestring budget and maybe a few useful connections. The others were either solo devs with a company backing them with money and resources, or even full proper studios.

Normally they'd be considered AA, but these seem to refer more to medium-lower budget games made by estabilished companies (like the zelda above).

I think it'd be more adequate to call them an "alternative" industry, refering to the fact they aren't part of the main brands leading the market.

Anyway, thats it for your friday GAF.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yeah its basically a loose genre term now, like indie rock. Only in rare cases will you find something actually self-published and thats what I call it. Self published. Can also be used loosely to refer to budget, "single A" games.

 

[bender]

This is Indy:

 

[Hugare]

Indie = independently made/published, imo

So yeah, Baldurs Gate 3 is indie, so is Stardew Valey or Celeste. They were all made independently from publishers.

Sure, Larian is 30% owned by Tencent, but they arent owned by Tencent like DICE is to EA, for example. And they've self published the game.

Dave the diver, for example, isn't indie

I hate this notion that any pixel art game is automatically indie.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

To me, the indie-scene is primarily for those that think it's cool to be anti-mainstream.

And it seems that the more niche and retro a game is, the "better" it is being labeled just for the sake of it.

 

[Gaiff]

To me, the indie-scene is primarily for those that think it's cool to be anti-mainstream.

And it seems that the more niche and retro a game is, the "better" it is being labeled just for the sake of it.

I dunno about that. A lot of indie games are actually trend chasers.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Indie = independently made/published, imo

So yeah, Baldurs Gate 3 is indie, so is Stardew Valey or Celeste. They were all made independently from publishers.

Dave the diver, for example, isn't indie

I hate this notion that any pixel art game is automatically indie.

But thats the issue i have, we just throw everything into the same pot. Also, the term "indie" specifically also used to refer to small independent devs, not just independent. Basically some guy making a game by himself or a group of friends who got together to make something.

 

[nush]

This is Indy:

No, this is Indy.

 

[bender]

But thats the issue i have, we just throw everything into the same pot. Also, the term "indie" specifically also used to refer to small independent devs, not just independent. Basically some guy making a game by himself or a group of friends who got together to make something.

It's a conflation of terms as being indie really doesn't have much to do with team size.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I dunno about that. A lot of indie games are actually trend chasers.

Fair enough.

But that's why I never understood the hype about all these indie games, even the good ones.
They're all just more of the same, but low-budget and retro/archaic.

 

[Black_Stride]

Indie = independently made/published, imo

So yeah, Baldurs Gate 3 is indie, so is Stardew Valey or Celeste. They were all made independently from publishers.

Sure, Larian is 30% owned by Tencent, but they arent owned by Tencent like DICE is to EA, for example. And they've self published the game.

Dave the diver, for example, isn't indie

I hate this notion that any pixel art game is automatically indie.

Mate once a game is licensed it has to fall out of the Indie category.
Being part of Dungeon and Dragons i cant in good faith call Baldurs Gate 3 an Indie game.

 

[winjer]

Indie just means independent. Not tied to a major publisher.
But because making a game while being indie is hard, most end up being made on the cheap.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I dunno about that. A lot of indie games are actually trend chasers.

Many also invest on visual fidelity all the same.

 

[Wildebeest]

When you are looking for funding to pay the dozens of contract or asset store artists and developers you need to make the game you tell the investors it is an "indie game" but when you are selling it on the summer game fest you insist on having Geoff call it a game made by a "single developer making games all by himself".

 

[Guilty_AI]

Fair enough.

But that's why I never understood the hype about all these indie games, even the good ones.
They're all just more of the same, but low-budget and retro/archaic.

You don't understand because you don't even know this side of the industry to begin with.

 

[hemo memo]

To me, the indie-scene is primarily for those that think it's cool to be anti-mainstream.

And it seems that the more niche and retro a game is, the "better" it is being labeled just for the sake of it.

Sometimes they are not niche or retro but still indie. Hades is massive and still indie.

 

[clarky]

Said it before when I think you brought it up in the wukong thread.

Independently developed and published = Indie.

The only grey area I suppose how they are financed.

From wiki which i think sums it up:

"An indie game, short for independent video game, is a video game created by individuals or smaller development teams without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher, in contrast to most "AAA" (triple-A) games. Because of their independence and freedom to develop, indie games often focus on innovation, experimental gameplay, and taking risks not usually afforded in AAA games. Indie games tend to be sold through digital distribution channels rather than at retail due to a lack of publisher support.

Indie games generally share certain common characteristics. One method to define an indie game is the nature of independence, which can either be:[8]

• Financial independence: In such situations, the developers have paid for the development and/or publication of the game themselves or from other funding sources such as crowd funding, and specifically without financial support of a large publisher.
• Independence of thought: In this case, the developers crafted their game without any oversight or directional influence by a third party such as a publisher."

 

[Killjoy-NL]

You don't understand because you don't even know this side of the industry to begin with.

The indie-side of the industry isn't that hard to understand.

I'd even argue that being part of a team that was considered one of the projects in Dreams at launch that showed it's potential would somewhat have made us part of the indie-scene.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The indie-side of the industry isn't that hard to understand.

So why do you think everything is retro/low-budget when that's just factually incorrect?

 

[Loomy]

Indie does not infer a level of quality of visual fidelity. The label is fine, your understanding is flawed.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

So why do you think everything is retro/low-budget when that's just factually incorrect?

That was maybe a bit hyperbolic, but my general take is that it mostly seems to be an anti-mainstream movement.

 

[nial]

Just be glad it's not as convoluted as it's in music.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Said it before when I think you brought it up in the wukong thread.

Independently developed and published = Indie.

The only grey area I suppose how they are financed.

From wiki which i think sums it up:

"An indie game, short for independent video game, is a video game created by individuals or smaller development teams without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher, in contrast to most "AAA" (triple-A) games. Because of their independence and freedom to develop, indie games often focus on innovation, experimental gameplay, and taking risks not usually afforded in AAA games. Indie games tend to be sold through digital distribution channels rather than at retail due to a lack of publisher support.

Indie games generally share certain common characteristics. One method to define an indie game is the nature of independence, which can either be:[8]

• Financial independence: In such situations, the developers have paid for the development and/or publication of the game themselves or from other funding sources such as crowd funding, and specifically without financial support of a large publisher.
• Independence of thought: In this case, the developers crafted their game without any oversight or directional influence by a third party such as a publisher."

This actually brings up another situation where a developer starts a project independently then find a publisher midway through who becomes interested in the idea, or publishers that still allow independence of thought/creativity. Recent cases i can think of are Teardown (who got a publisher after the game was released) and Animal Well. This all further muddies the waters.

Part of this definition even denies Wukong being an indie game, seeing as the team isn't small (i think).

 

[_Justinian_]

The "Indie" label never should have existed in the first place. As I have said in another thread, a game is either good or bad. It should be judged on that criteria alone. How much money you spent on developing it, or whether or not it was developed by one person or one thousand people shouldn't matter.

 

[Hugare]

But thats the issue i have, we just throw everything into the same pot. Also, the term "indie" specifically also used to refer to small independent devs, not just independent. Basically some guy making a game by himself or a group of friends who got together to make something.

It's usually used to refer to small independent devs because there are way more guys in basements making independent games than a big studio like Larian

Larian is an unicorn. A studio of that size is probably owned by a big company or making games for said company as 3rd party, like Asobo for Microsoft.

Mate once a game is licensed it has to fall out of the Indie category.
Being part of Dungeon and Dragons i cant in good faith call Baldurs Gate 3 an Indie game.

Just because of how big the IP is? Nonsense

It was still developed and published independently. Therefore, indie.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Indie does not infer a level of quality of visual fidelity. The label is fine, your understanding is flawed.

Neither did i affirm this anywhere. I'm saying we use the term loosely without being certain if it refers to budget, the existence of a publisher or the publisher in question.

 

[killatopak]

So why do you think everything is retro/low-budget when that's just factually incorrect?

Because most AAA are modern/big budget.

It’s easier to see it that way when 99% falls into that category.

There are always exceptions but the perception of it will always fall that way. Just like the word candy automatically has a sweet connotation to it despite having sour and spicy variants.

 

[Guilty_AI]

That was maybe a bit hyperbolic, but my general take is that it mostly seems to be an anti-mainstream movement.

Even though many will gladly use mainstream formulas and concepts?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Because most AAA are modern/big budget.

It’s easier to see it that way when 99% falls into that category.

There are always exceptions but the perception of it will always fall that way. Just like the word candy automatically has a sweet connotation to it despite having sour and spicy variants.

i mean, 99% of games in general fall into that category, yet no one thinks of Pyramid Runner when talking about games.

 

[Fbh]

I don't necessarily disagree but at this point I think it's going to be hard to get away from the term, which has basically become synonymous with "smaller scale game that isn't from a major publisher".
I see it a bit as the "JRPG" argument, where you can go with the technical definition of "an RPG made in Japan", under which games like Bloodborne, Elden Ring and Dragons Dogma 2 would be included, but they aren't really the types of games most people associate with the term JRPG.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Indie is fine. Though I think bad games made by Indie developers should just get the term Kusoge.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't necessarily disagree but at this point I think it's going to be hard to get away from the term, which has basically become synonymous with "smaller scale game that isn't from a major publisher".
I see it a bit as the "JRPG" argument, where you can go with the technical definition of "an RPG made in Japan", under which games like Bloodborne, Elden Ring and Dragons Dogma 2 would be included, but they aren't really the types of games most people associate with the term JRPG.

I'd argue JRPG is any heavily story-driven game with at least some roots in rpgs that use anime/manga as inspiration for their presentation and art.

So basically Japanese pop-culture aesthetics + western RPG systems.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Even though many will gladly use mainstream formulas and concepts?

Yes, because I don't think a large part of the indie-fans would even look at it that way.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yes, because I don't think a large part of the indie-fans would even look at it that way.

Do you even know who "indie-fans" are?

 

[killatopak]

i mean, 99% of games in general fall into that category, yet no one thinks of Pyramid Runner when talking about games.

It’s just a popularity contest. Turns out a lot more people buy AAA than indie ones so they think of them when talking about games. Not to mention they actually advertise them to the general public. When you think of Basketball, do you imagine the NBA or some small island country’s basketball league? Huge indie game like BG3? Euroleague basketball.

To be fair, I agree with your thread title. I just don’t see how when it’s so ingrained in the community. I mean the first time I heard the term indie was a mega64 skit with the developer of Castle Crashers and that stuck to me that those types of games are indie. Of course, I know better now since I’m active in the enthusiast community but I don’t think that’s the case with everybody else especially casuals. Actually, I doubt casuals even know the term indie and AAA.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

What's wrong, BennyBlanco , don't think a team working in Dreams could function as any other development team just because it was working within Dreams?

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Do you even know who "indie-fans" are?

People who prefer indie games or consider only indie games to be "original" because they're not forced by suits of major companies?

What kind of rethorical question is that?

 

[Guilty_AI]

What's wrong, BennyBlanco , don't think a team working in Dreams could function as any other development team just because it was working within Dreams?

A game made in Dreams isn't commercially viable (because you can't sell it). I'd say it falls more in the same category as mods.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

A game made in Dreams isn't commercially viable (because you can't sell it). I'd say it falls more in the same category as mods.

I was referring to how the team functioned and worked on the project.

And I think even those who develop mods could be seen as indie developers.

But then we would probably get into semantics.

And if you want to talk about business, would being part of the biggest Kickstarter project in Dreams (raising $30,000) count?
(Granted, it was an animation, but whatever. Although then we would be indie in the movie/animation industry).

 

[Guilty_AI]

People who prefer indie games or consider only indie games to be "original" because they're not forced by suits of major companies?

Wrong. "Indie-fans" are people who are fans of very specific genres - city-builders, boomer shooters, metroidvanias, crpgs, visual novels, etc - and go towards the indie-market to have their tastes met, as its pretty much the only one who offers such games to begin with.

What kind of rethorical question is that?

The kind you apparently give wrong answers to.

 

[tr1p1ex]

This is Indy.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Wrong. "Indie-fans" are people who are fans of very specific genres - city-builders, boomer shooters, metroidvanias, crpgs, visual novels, etc - and go towards the indie-market to have their tastes met, as its pretty much the only one who offers such games to begin with.


The kind you apparently give wrong answers to.

That's basically what I was saying.

 

[BennyBlanco]

What's wrong, BennyBlanco , don't think a team working in Dreams could function as any other development team just because it was working within Dreams?

Your posts in this thread are embarrassing. Making something in Dreams is like messing around with Garry’s Mod. Not really the same thing. And to say people only like indies to be contrarians is so incredibly dumb. AAA gaming has become so predictable and boring. I will take Balatro over every AAA game from the big western publishers this gen and I say that without a hint of irony.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Your posts in this thread are embarrassing. Making something in Dreams is like messing around with Garry’s Mod. Not really the same thing. And to say people only like indies to be contrarians is so incredibly dumb. AAA gaming has become so predictable and boring. I will take Balatro over every AAA game from the big western publishers this gen and I say that without a hint of irony.

Or maybe you have no idea what you're talking about?

 

[Guilty_AI]

That's basically what I was saying.

It is not what you said at all.

You tried implying these "fans" are trying to be anti-mainstream, when in fact they're after something which feels generally familiar to them with good quality and maybe a few twists. No one plays SKALD to be "original", they play SKALD because they like classic rpgs such as Ultima, or maybe just rpgs in general, or maybe they just like the art and the setting.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

It is not what you said at all.

You tried implying these "fans" are trying to be anti-mainstream, when in fact they're after something which feels generally familiar to them with good quality and maybe a few twists. No one plays SKALD to be "original", they play SKALD because they like classic rpgs such as Ultima, or maybe just rpgs in general, or maybe they just like the art and the setting.

Is that what triggered you?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Is that what triggered you?

I see you ran out of arguments. Laugh emojis for you it is from now on.

 

[Red5]

An independent company is like Larian and Valve, they're not publicly tradable, you cannot buy yourself into them they are entirely owned by one or a few individuals.

The opposite is a publicly traded company like EA or Microsoft.

 

[The Cockatrice]

indie used to mean self made no publishers but since Devolver Digital or 505 games or whatever came to the scene, that name changed. We dont know how much help theyre getting and certainly games published by NewBlood for example without a doubt have no budget at all. So to me indie nowadays is basically any studio with a small budget or at all regardless if its published or not.

 

[DryvBy]

I think what you want is more of "this game feels small" vs "big". Indie budget vs big budget.