• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

I finally finished Watchmen. (Spoilers, oh and thoughts on Marvels as well)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
I was kinda pissed when I finished it.

I began reading it during the flight back from E3 and finished it about an hour ago, which kind of describes my experience with it. Early on, the book was hellaciously boring. In fact I almost dropped it entirely it was that boring. Blake's death was an interesting way to start the book off, but it just trailed from there. It was a revolving door of characters with no real introduction to them or any reason to care for them at all. Why should I have cared about the two Nite Owls meeting? Why should I have cared if Dan and Laurie had been killed by that small gang of thugs early on? Why would I care about Dr. Manhattan giving others cancer and being subsequently exiled from the planet (even though he could just pretty much cure the cancer and vaporize whoever wanted him exiled...)? The first three chapters were extremely boring and so disjointed, they were a major turn off.

The story finally started to pick up a bit with the Dr. Manhattan chapter. His origin was at least interesting, and it made the reader feel a bit of sympathy for a character that would otherwise have been the all powerful naked blue guy. Seriously who gives a fuck about that? Then it continued into the Rorschach chapters which were even better and provided even more insight into these vigilantes. Still, immediately after that, Moore jumps into this forced relationship between Laurie and Dan, the two most boring characters in the book. It was a very very slow and annoying chapter, friends, and not only that, but it really didn't have much of an impact on anything. Though it can be argued that through Dan, Laurie was able to get back in touch with her humanity after being with Jon for so many years, and would ultimately lead up to her debate with Jon on Mars.

From then on it picked up and never really slowed down. The debate between the above mentioned characters, Nite Owl and Rorschach teaming up again, finding out that Viedt was behind it all, and then reading his (insanely) long monologue detailing his plans, damn near rivaling Dr. Doom's in Secret Wars. The end made me mad that it was over, and had so much to offer, but was dragged down by stupid and meandering characters that no one cared about nor did they even matter. I never gave a flying fuck about Laurie or Dan that pitiful wuss. Laurie's mom (can't even remember her name she was so unimportant) Blake, and even Viedt were pretty dull characters. (Up until the end for Viedt)

I didn't really understand the whole deal with that pirate dude, but eh, it's unimportant. Since we're all so interested in numerical scores, I'd give Watchmen an 86/100. When it was good, it was great, but it took a lot of will power to muscle throught the boring parts.

On the way to E3 I started and finished Marvels. I guess I should get into that too.

For one, the art was phenomenal. Alex Ross owns and I love his style but I thought Kingdom Come was better. It was a pretty interesting take on the Marvel universe. The world had just come into contact with superheroes for the first time and didn't even know how to react. I was totally enthralled by the style of writing pretty much right off the bat. The Namor/Human Torch sightings, fights, and damn near any movement from them was completely thrilling and involving. The world stopped whenever the marvels came out in public. Each of the four mini-retellings were pretty interestng and provided a fresh new take on old Marvel stories, particularly the first battle of the Fantastic Four and Galactus. That was fucking amazing. If I had to knock it for anything it'd be the pithy social commentary and the fact that... it is a retelling. I was quite bored with the Spider-Man/Green Goblin/Gwen Stacy chapter. Been there, done that, multiple times. Oh well. I'd recommend it though, I'd score it at an 89/100.

/me prepares to be burned at the stake.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
I've caught flack from the likes of Nomoment for claiming that it's overrated, but there's no denying its impact on the industry. I too agree that the pacing is rather uneven and some of the characters are not nearly as interesting as others.

Of the two books referred to as reinventing the industry, I prefer The Dark Knight Returns over The Watchmen. Sure, The Watchmen is more cerebral and Alan Moore has a way with words that Frank Miller can only dream about, but for my money, The Dark Knight Returns is more enjoyable.

Having read Alan Moore's run on Miracleman, and having the run in physical form (and holding it in my own two hands!), I can say that that book is a lot better than The Watchmen!
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
If I had to rank the books I've read recently, this is how I'd place them:

Kingdom Come
Dark Knight Returns
Marvels
Watchmen
Secret Wars
...
Green Arrow: Quiver

It's not that Watchmen is inherently bad, it's just not as good as the others.

I'm thinking about what to get next. Probably Batman: Year One and The Killing Joke.
 

nomoment

Member
It took me about a week to finish Watchmen for the first time. Some of the pirate stuff really dragged on, but, like everyone of the little excerpts at the end of the issues, contributed to the story as a whole. I wouldn't label Watchmen the best the medium has to offer either, but it's very good. It's definitely on my top ten list.

Wellington, if you can, try to acquire scans for those Miracleman issues Willco mentions. The issues have long gone out of print, but the scans should be relatively easy to find if you know where to look.

As for your next book, I'm going to disagree with Willco and say, read YEAR ONE first. It's my favorite Batman story (Yes, I liked it better than DKR), and the art and coloring is absolutely stunning. A shame Richmond Lewis hasn't colored more stuff.
 

nomoment

Member
And I'm going to chime in and say... you need to read Grant Morrison's Animal Man. All three volumes.

A few things, though --

1. The art is terrible.
2. It doesn't really start getting great until the third and final volume. After reading the first volume, you'll probably think... "meh." After the second volume, you'll probably think... "average, nothing special." But by the middle of the third volume, you'll realize what genius you're reading. The fact that the first two volumes didn't jump out at you immediately is part of the surprise, trust me.

Animal Man is my favorite mainstream comic of all-time, and deserves ALL the accolade it's been given over the past 15 years. It just takes a while to get started, though.
 

Cafeman

Member
I just read Kingdom Come, it is flat-out the best thing I think I've ever read in a comic. I read it about 2 or 3 months ago, got the bound complete trade book.

Alex Ross' art ... phenomenal. I like the large-size Superman book a lot, also Marvels, and the Justice League recent one from last November.

But Kingdom Come is in a league of its own. My favorite part of the book (in addition to Captain Marvel's constant demented grin!) is this part .. see if you remember it ..

"Don't you understand? If any of use are to survive .. any of us .. now more than ever .. We Need HOPE! "

And suddenly .. there was a wind.
No, Not a wind. A blur of motion .. bending the steel of their weapons...
... and changing the very course of the mighty river below.
Even before the bystanders freed themselves from the cablecar, they knew. We all did.
We knew... and remembered.

"Look!"

"Up in the sky!"

He had not turned his back on us. He stands in the sky... faith rewarded.

(I love that sequence,and the art is outstanding.)
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
nomoment said:
As for your next book, I'm going to disagree with Willco and say, read YEAR ONE first. It's my favorite Batman story (Yes, I liked it better than DKR), and the art and coloring is absolutely stunning. A shame Richmond Lewis hasn't colored more stuff.

I don't know why you say this. Year One comes off so pedestrian.
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Cafeman said:
I just read Kingdom Come, it is flat-out the best thing I think I've ever read in a comic. I read it about 2 or 3 months ago, got the bound complete trade book.

Alex Ross' art ... phenomenal. I like the large-size Superman book a lot, also Marvels, and the Justice League recent one from last November.

But Kingdom Come is in a league of its own. My favorite part of the book (in addition to Captain Marvel's constant demented grin!) is this part .. see if you remember it ..

"Don't you understand? If any of use are to survive .. any of us .. now more than ever .. We Need HOPE! "

And suddenly .. there was a wind.
No, Not a wind. A blur of motion .. bending the steel of their weapons...
... and changing the very course of the mighty river below.
Even before the bystanders freed themselves from the cablecar, they knew. We all did.
We knew... and remembered.

"Look!"

"Up in the sky!"

He had not turned his back on us. He stands in the sky... faith rewarded.

(I love that sequence,and the art is outstanding.)

Fuck yeah dude. That moment with the meta-humans versus the oldschool heroes was AWESOME! Kingdom Come is unparalleled imo.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=4708 <-- Batman Vs. Ozymandius. WHO WINS!?
 
Wellington said:
If I had to rank the books I've read recently, this is how I'd place them:

Kingdom Come
Dark Knight Returns
Marvels
Watchmen

Not to be negative, but WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE KINGDOM COME?! I didn't get it when I first read it, and I read it again a month ago now that I'm far more versed in DC lore, and I still didn't get it. Why is it interesting or good? Seriously. Explain this to me.

Watchmen is at the top of my list, but I concur that if you like "mainstream" stuff YOU MUST READ GRANT MORRISON'S ANIMAL MAN!
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Well for one, on the surface it's a kickass all out battle.

For two, I liked the religious undertones. If you look closely, there was a lot of religious imagery with Supes.

For three, the underlying message was great.

For four, seeing all of those great heroes later on in their lives was cool.

I really can't put it into words to be honest, I just really really enjoyed the book. I had a decent writeup on the old forum but forgot to save it. :/
 

lordmrw

Member
For those of you looking for something else to read, I can't recommend Sandman and Preacher enough. Sandman ranks as one of the most intelligent comic series ever written; but the only problem with that is sometimes certain elements will go over your head. Preacher is damn good, but has some truly fucked up shit in it. If you're the type that is easily offended, stay away, or you'll see
a man who sodomizes animals parking his bicycle in another man's ass (i'm serious), Assface (who deserves a whole nother topic by himself), and any of the numerous fucked up things that happen to Herr Starr (a fucking laundry list). Like the type he had to wipe a retarded hillbilly's ass in order to get his gun before they kill him and eat him.
.
 

Asbel

Member
I had just recently read DKR and Watchmen myself. I liked Watchmen throughout though the book is quite long. It kept me thinking for the most part and that kept me interested. Who is the killer? What's the point of the pirate story? Is Ozymandaz right? I plan to give it another read when I have the time. My only fault with Watchmen is that I felt the ending could have been stronger. Moore didn't seem to be able to decide which side was right and just simply had the characters split on the issue. I know that is asking a lot but great stories have higher standards.

DKR spoilers since this isn't a DKR topic.
I came into DKR and Watchmen with high expectations so when I say that I was dissapointed with DKR, it doesn't mean the book wasn't good. It had everything most Batman fans would want in a Batman story. I know I'm in the minority for not liking DKR but I was really expecting a smarter Batman from his age, not one who still had his pride rule his logic as when he was younger. Batman also got out of situations through luck too many times in this book as opposed to using the most well thought out plan. (Going up against the gang leader one on one?) Now why did he act like he knew the nuke fallout was going to happen yet did nothing, not even warn Supes about it? I also don't understand why the Pres would send Supes after Bats when they now have the nuke fallout to take care of. And all the planning Bats did for the fight was pointless cuz he could have just pulled out the kryptonite from the start. The Batarmor was useless and Supes even mentioned holding back so Batman's claim to victory wasn't anything anyone with kryptonite couldn't do to Supes. But I understand they did this show for the fans. Poor Supes just looks like he's all powers and no brain which is just poor writing of his character.

I've been thinking of picking up one of Ross' books. Guess I should start with Kingdom Come.
 

FnordChan

Member
Asbel said:
I've been thinking of picking up one of Ross' books. Guess I should start with Kingdom Come.

I'm with JackFrost on this one. Kingdom Come...eh. Marvels is pretty good, but you get more out of it depending on how much of a Marvel Comics geek you are.

For Alan Moore, Watchmen is damn good but From Hell is fucking amazing.

In addition to Sandman (crucial) and Preacher (fun, but not crucial), I'd add Transmetropolitan (somewhere inbetween). The final volume was recently released, so all 60 issues await your attention. Ellis at his finest.

FnordChan
 
Kingdom Come is a turd. I can't believe people actually hold it in such high regard. I found it to be preachy and overly sentimental in terms of both the art and writing. Ugh. Come to think of it, I hate this comic.

The Watchmen is also overrated, but I like it a lot more. The narrative structure, especially the chapter involving Doc Manhatten's origin and the stuff with the pirate ship really blew me away. Alan Moore is truly one of a kind, but I think my favorite work of his will always be V for Vendetta, which is probably my favorite comic of all time.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
I liked playing spot the character in Kingdom Come. I couldn't spot the story though.
I don't like V for Vendetta due to it's recoloured format. It looked so much better in Black & White in Warrior compared to the gaudy colouring from DC.
 

Matlock

Banned
I'd go with Year One (Frank Miller) next, then delve into Killing Joke (Alan Moore) and Arkham Asylum (Grant Morrisson). They're all really good Bat-titles from the 80's, and they're all unique in their ways.

Year One plays out like DKR quite a bit in pacing, but introduces Batman to the reader in a way that makes his origin and (then-Detective) Gordon's intertwine and shine. If you didn't lthink much of Gordon before, you'll love the old coot after this book.

Killing Joke is a weird title, cruel and brutal...and overall horrible. But that's how the Joker is. This is pretty much the Joker's defining title. With a bit of origin-based backstory (not the same as the movie!) and some really screwed up things that he does, you'll come to realize more of what he's capable of.

...and Arkham Asylum...Arkham is a crazy place. Between Morrison's batshit writing (no pun intended) and McKean's bizarre paints, it's definitely not a normal title. As insane as the place it encapsulates, and darker than most any Batman title, but still recommended reading.

Also, and I forgot this up until now, a non-Batman related title to look into.

Brian Michael Bendis' "Powers: Who Killed Retro Girl?" trade. It's a murder mystery with superheroes that somehow avoids the modern Bendis plot-padding and comes off with some genuinely great characters that are easy enough to relate to.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
Oh and if you're talking Alan Moore, get Supreme - Story of the Year. It's a collection of the greatest Superman stories never told, and knocks all of his serious stuff into a cocked hat.
 
Wellington said:
Why should I have cared about the two Nite Owls meeting?

It's the old guard/new guard situation that Watchmen is basically about. The old Nite Owl was about having a grand ol' time fighting evil. The new Nite Owl is retired by the reality of being a masked vigilante. In a sense, you're supposed to see how silly those golden age guys really were.

Why should I have cared if Dan and Laurie had been killed by that small gang of thugs early on?

That was never in question. Dan and Laurie couldn't lose - they're trained superheroes. The question was whether they could relent to being them anymore. They could, and it woke a sense of nostalgia in them that was long thought dead.

Why would I care about Dr. Manhattan giving others cancer and being subsequently exiled from the planet (even though he could just pretty much cure the cancer and vaporize whoever wanted him exiled...)?

1. He didn't show any signs of curing cancer.
2. It was self exile.
3. He didn't cause cancer.

Originally, Dr. Manhattan worked for the US Government out of an old sense of nationality - he was american - but he gradually became so distanced from humanity let alone america, that when Laurie left him, he finally had no chains remaining. He could build whatever equipment he needed on Mars just as soon as he could on earth, so why bother sticking around?

Still, immediately after that, Moore jumps into this forced relationship between Laurie and Dan, the two most boring characters in the book.

Think of Dan as the fanboy. The guy who eats his cereal and thinks being a superhero would be the coolest thing in the world. Dan is the only guy who made the no-duress decision to be a superhero, and as you say, that basically makes him the most qualified man to understand basic humanity among the Watchmen.

and then reading his (insanely) long monologue detailing his plans

Veidt forgets nothing, so no doubt his mind unfolds that way.

The end made me mad that it was over, and had so much to offer, but was dragged down by stupid and meandering characters that no one cared about nor did they even matter. I never gave a flying fuck about Laurie or Dan that pitiful wuss.

Didn't seem like a wuss to me - he just didn't have the crazy attack dog nature of his partner, or Manhattan's superhuman abilities. Dan was all about the gadgets, and in the face of Veidt, throwing yourself at him multiple times like Rorscach just didn't make much sense.

That moment in the book was the second greatest moment therein - Veidt has issued the ultimate "ends justify the means" statement. Rorscach refuses to give up on his principles - the ends cannot justify the means - while Dan admits the damage is done, and perhaps the the means are justified.

(The greatest moment being at the end, where Veidt learns the horrible truth about his plan. I'd like to think that for one moment, he was more troubled than any possible moment in his life beforehand).

The whole point of Watchmen when it was released was to take a serious look at Superheroes and how the Avengers model of teams, codewords, banquets, and supervillains was unsustainable - you just can't have them fight it out every week with no harm done. Moore paints a far more realistic picture of what was on the line that would pave the way for more recent comics like The Authority or (sometimes) the Ultimates.
 

Musashi Wins!

FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
nomoment said:
And I'm going to chime in and say... you need to read Grant Morrison's Animal Man. All three volumes.

A few things, though --

1. The art is terrible.
2. It doesn't really start getting great until the third and final volume. After reading the first volume, you'll probably think... "meh." After the second volume, you'll probably think... "average, nothing special." But by the middle of the third volume, you'll realize what genius you're reading. The fact that the first two volumes didn't jump out at you immediately is part of the surprise, trust me.

Animal Man is my favorite mainstream comic of all-time, and deserves ALL the accolade it's been given over the past 15 years. It just takes a while to get started, though.

I remember reading this comic back in the day. It was extremely average until all of a sudden...it leaves the rails for a bit. It made quite an impression on me, though I don't remember the lead-up to the...changes being anything worthwhile. Except as being part of an introductory experiment of what we expect in a super-hero comic, etc. I'd like to know more about the background of its writing and development. I also had no idea it had been collected in graphic novel form, and will now search them out.
 
Crazymoogle said:
The whole point of Watchmen when it was released was to take a serious look at Superheroes and how the Avengers model of teams, codewords, banquets, and supervillains was unsustainable - you just can't have them fight it out every week with no harm done. Moore paints a far more realistic picture of what was on the line that would pave the way for more recent comics like The Authority or (sometimes) the Ultimates.

IAWTP. It's important that people remember that before Watchmen, there weren't really any comic works that examined the psychology of superheroes. Even now, nearly 20 years after it was first published, Watchmen still towers over books like the Authority, Kingdom Come, and Ultimates. I don't know, it took me a long time and several rereadings to really appreciate how important the comic is, and how lasting its influence has been. I said it before and I'll say it again, no one can touch Alan Moore's writing.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
So how come all this mention of Moore and no one mentions his Swamp Thing run? That's some classic shit right there. *Remembers "The Anatomy Lesson*

Also, a lot of the beefs I'm hearing about Watchmen sound more like a lack of attention span than anything else:

"I didn't really understand the whole deal with that pirate dude, but eh, it's unimportant."

Oh come on!
 

8bit

Knows the Score
bob_arctor said:
So how come all this mention of Moore and no one mentions his Swamp Thing run? That's some classic shit right there. *Remembers "The Anatomy Lesson*

Also, a lot of the beefs I'm hearing about Watchmen sound more like a lack of attention span than anything else:

"I didn't really understand the whole deal with that pirate dude, but eh, it's unimportant."

Oh come on!

I'll see your Swamp Thing and raise you Halo Jones.
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Crazymoogle said:
It's the old guard/new guard situation that Watchmen is basically about. The old Nite Owl was about having a grand ol' time fighting evil. The new Nite Owl is retired by the reality of being a masked vigilante. In a sense, you're supposed to see how silly those golden age guys really were.

But at the very beginning of the story? How is the reader supposed to know that?

That was never in question. Dan and Laurie couldn't lose - they're trained superheroes. The question was whether they could relent to being them anymore. They could, and it woke a sense of nostalgia in them that was long thought dead.

Again, this is near the beginning of the story. The reader hasn't seen any of their superhero exploits nor does he know the extent of their abilities.
1. He didn't show any signs of curing cancer.
2. It was self exile.
3. He didn't cause cancer.

Originally, Dr. Manhattan worked for the US Government out of an old sense of nationality - he was american - but he gradually became so distanced from humanity let alone america, that when Laurie left him, he finally had no chains remaining. He could build whatever equipment he needed on Mars just as soon as he could on earth, so why bother sticking around?

Yeah, I actually did read the story thanks. I know it was self imposed, but within the book Moore always makes it seem like he was forced out. He could have disintegrated everyone there. And yes, I know he didn't cause any cancer, in fact it's quite obvious since they mention it several times in the book. But again, early on, without the plot twist, that's what the first time reader would think. I'd assume that since he was supposedly going off to another galaxy to recreate life as alluded to at the end, he could cure mere cancer.
Think of Dan as the fanboy. The guy who eats his cereal and thinks being a superhero would be the coolest thing in the world. Dan is the only guy who made the no-duress decision to be a superhero, and as you say, that basically makes him the most qualified man to understand basic humanity among the Watchmen.

I agree to an extent. Rorschach was still perfectly human and not as boring or insecure as Dan was. Fine, so it's the character he plays, but he's boring and annoying. Man up and fuck Laurie like a hero instead of going to bed and saying "Hell and damnation."

Veidt forgets nothing, so no doubt his mind unfolds that way.

That's cool and all, but there's no sense in launching into the cliche'd villain's diatribe other than to wrap up loose plotholes.

Didn't seem like a wuss to me - he just didn't have the crazy attack dog nature of his partner, or Manhattan's superhuman abilities. Dan was all about the gadgets, and in the face of Veidt, throwing yourself at him multiple times like Rorscach just didn't make much sense.

You're talking about Nite Owl, I'm talking about Dan Drieberg.

That moment in the book was the second greatest moment therein - Veidt has issued the ultimate "ends justify the means" statement. Rorscach refuses to give up on his principles - the ends cannot justify the means - while Dan admits the damage is done, and perhaps the the means are justified.

That's not him being badass, that's Moore showing that, as you alluded too, even within a team of superheroes there can be dissenting opinions.

I liked the book, but it is a bit overratedin my opinion. I can see how it would have had an impact on the industry, but it's definitely not infallible.
 
Wellington said:
But at the very beginning of the story? How is the reader supposed to know that?

Maybe you have the issue order mixed up? Looking at the TPB here, they don't get into the fight with the thugs until at least the third issue, whereas the dual identities of Dan and Laurie are made very clear in the first issue.

This isn't marvel "mutation" comics - the guys with real superpowers clearly show it, and those who don't, don't. Seeing Dreiburg as a somewhat rotund guy with an owl costume tells me he can probably beat up underlings - the sort of batman thing.

Yeah, I actually did read the story thanks. I know it was self imposed, but within the book Moore always makes it seem like he was forced out.

Another undercurrent of the writing, really. By the definition of most of the characters, yeah, it seems like extenuating circumstances pushed out Dr. M, but I thought it was rather clear at the end that he just gave up. I mean, he's creating clones to keep Laurie busy, and he doesn't even think in linear form anymore. He asks Laurie to argue for humanity because the link really just isn't there for him.

I'd assume that since he was supposedly going off to another galaxy to recreate life as alluded to at the end, he could cure mere cancer.

Well, to argue that, at no point does he seem to show any sort of medical ability - his reaction to humanity seems more like puzzlement most of the time - and cancer isn't something you can just wave a magic wand at. You can argue that Dr. M may have came up with a solution if he was motivated, but he wasn't god, so fixing things right off the bat wasn't very likely.

That's cool and all, but there's no sense in launching into the cliche'd villain's diatribe other than to wrap up loose plotholes.

Or to make things perfectly understood between himself and the other Watchmen. Veidt needed them to understand he wasn't just another one of those villains they fought years ago, but rather a man with a plan so well thought out it couldn't help but succeed.

Didn't seem cliched at all to me, but whatever. I mean, I have trouble reading LOTR because I've read a lot of important material afterwards (WoT, for example), so if you've read a lot of work inspired by Watchmen, it only makes sense that you might have issues with Watchmen itself.

Bob: If this was a general Alan Moore thread, I would put Top 10 at the front of the pack. Damn I love that series.
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Our differences in opinion can almost all be attributed to the point of view we are applying. I'm talking about each event as a reader that does not know anything that happened after said event. Meanwhile you are approaching them as if it were your second or third read. I have just finished it a little over 24 hours ago. As an example:

Another undercurrent of the writing, really. By the definition of most of the characters, yeah, it seems like extenuating circumstances pushed out Dr. M, but I thought it was rather clear at the end that he just gave up.

Blake's death was an interesting way to start the book off, but it just trailed from there. It was a revolving door of characters with no real introduction to them or any reason to care for them at all. Why should I have cared about the two Nite Owls meeting? Why should I have cared if Dan and Laurie had been killed by that small gang of thugs early on? Why would I care about Dr. Manhattan giving others cancer and being subsequently exiled from the planet (even though he could just pretty much cure the cancer and vaporize whoever wanted him exiled...)? The first three chapters were extremely boring and so disjointed, they were a major turn off.

As for the Dan and Laurie fight against the thugs, I wasn't confused of their status as former heroes at that point of the story, I was confused about their ability. IIRC, other than a brief reminisced moment from Nite Owl, there is no other mention of their skill at fighting off evil doers in the first three issues. In fact, I don't remember Laurie doing much of anything until she shot at Viedt in the last chapter. They could have been like The Tick or Duckman unwittingly stumbling onto the solutions of whatever mystery they were trying to solve for all the reader knows.
 
Wellington said:
I was confused about their ability. IIRC, other than a brief reminisced moment from Nite Owl, there is no other mention of their skill at fighting off evil doers in the first three issues.

My argument is that their fighting ability is implied. Laurie isn't just some girl in a skimpy dress - she was a crime fighter, who despite her looks was called forth to join a supergroup. Furthermore, they were fighting some garden variety thugs.

If they couldn't protect themselves in a dark alley at night, what business would they ever have being super heroes?
 
8bit said:
images

Is that thing real?! Me want!!
 

FoneBone

Member
nomoment said:
And I'm going to chime in and say... you need to read Grant Morrison's Animal Man. All three volumes.

A few things, though --

1. The art is terrible.
2. It doesn't really start getting great until the third and final volume. After reading the first volume, you'll probably think... "meh." After the second volume, you'll probably think... "average, nothing special." But by the middle of the third volume, you'll realize what genius you're reading. The fact that the first two volumes didn't jump out at you immediately is part of the surprise, trust me.

Animal Man is my favorite mainstream comic of all-time, and deserves ALL the accolade it's been given over the past 15 years. It just takes a while to get started, though.
Morrison's Animal Man run is fucking brilliant. I can't believe it took Vertigo so long to collect it, though.

Also, I'll join in on the "Kingdom Come is overrated" bandwagon -- great art, but the story is kind of meh. Marvels is great, although some knowledge of Marvel history is probably needed to appreciate it (you hardly need to be an expert, though -- I sure wasn't when I read it).
 

Dujour

Banned
You didn't read the inbetween chapters, did you? I remember last time you asked you said you didn't. Bad boy. That's like... half the book right there. Altogether, it's a great experience. I thought it was boring up until the third issue. These characters were new to me, but in the end, I loved them all. Yeah, even the Owl. I really can't see how they'd make this into a movie. Miniseries, maybe.

As for Kingdom Come being overrated: you have to understand the theme behind the theme. If you were a fan of all those spawn-esque/image brand comics in the early 90's, then you probably won't understand. It's alright, just let it go over your little insignificant minds. Ants.
 

AniHawk

Member
I'm not into comics at all. Though I saw a Kingdom Come action figure dealy at Gamestop one day, and was intrigued. I liked Superman and Batman as a kid, and still enjoy The Animated Series whenever I can catch it. Is KC something that someone who hasn't read a single comic book in his life can enjoy? I'm really interested by the premise.
 

Dujour

Banned
Yeah, it is. Even if you know a little bit about superman, that's good enough. Since it's set in the future, the superman of old is a has-been. And batman, you just have to know how obsessive he was/is.
 
Serafitia said:
As for Kingdom Come being overrated: you have to understand the theme behind the theme. If you were a fan of all those spawn-esque/image brand comics in the early 90's, then you probably won't understand. It's alright, just let it go over your little insignificant minds. Ants.

I feel like I deserve an apology for you suggesting I'm a Spawn fan. :p
 

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Serafitia said:
You didn't read the inbetween chapters, did you? I remember last time you asked you said you didn't. Bad boy. That's like... half the book right there. Altogether, it's a great experience. I thought it was boring up until the third issue. These characters were new to me, but in the end, I loved them all. Yeah, even the Owl. I really can't see how they'd make this into a movie. Miniseries, maybe.

As for Kingdom Come being overrated: you have to understand the theme behind the theme. If you were a fan of all those spawn-esque/image brand comics in the early 90's, then you probably won't understand. It's alright, just let it go over your little insignificant minds. Ants.

You're right, I didn't. :( It just doesn't really seem important enough to make much of an impact on the story, and I don't think it will change any of my views on Watchmen in general.

Anihawk: Kingdom Come is great, check it out.

I ordered Killing Joke, Year one, and Superman: Red Son the other day. Go me.
 

FnordChan

Member
Wellington said:
You're right, I didn't. :( It just doesn't really seem important enough to make much of an impact on the story, and I don't think it will change any of my views on Watchmen in general.

Just so you know, if you read Watchmen and skipped all the text chapters, you're really missing the point.

FnordChan
 

Asbel

Member
I got Kingdom Come and I'm a Mark Waid fan so I have to say I was disapointed. I really enjoyed the first half and couldn't stop reading but the ending really fell apart.
How come WW was such a hypocrite? She condemned other heros for killing but was willing to do it herself. Sigh.. Superman was too dumb to be believable. Even a kid would have known the Gulag was a bad idea. Batman was sly but would have been smarter to trick Luthor while talking some sense into the League instead of ignoring them and letting them build the Gulag. I'll also pretend that Dick wasn't actually in this story. It wasn't all bad since the creepy Captain Marvel was pretty cool. It's just idea of the Gulag and then the war with the prisoners that was too forced and would have been more natural coming from characters like Luthor and his MLF.

KC has great art and is a decent story as a whole. I was disappointed but I do expect better from Waid. This would not be a bad entry into comics but realize this is not how the normal characters in the Justice League would behave.
 

Dujour

Banned
Alright, here I go. Even if you undestood it, you should appreciate what Waid was trying to do. It's about the comics in the early nineties and how fans turned their backs on traditional heroes and favored the new needlessly violent comics that were spawned by Image. No one cared about Superman. That kind of justice was supposedly tried and tired. Basically, it's about classic necessities that shouldn't change about comics versus the ones that cross the line. Superman versus Magog. Old versus new.
 

AniHawk

Member
Serafitia said:
Yeah, it is. Even if you know a little bit about superman, that's good enough. Since it's set in the future, the superman of old is a has-been. And batman, you just have to know how obsessive he was/is.

Wellington said:
Anihawk: Kingdom Come is great, check it out.

Cool, cool. I'll check it out. My first comic book/graphic novel dealy evar!
 
Serafitia said:
Even if you undestood it, you should appreciate what Waid was trying to do. It's about the comics in the early nineties and how fans turned their backs on traditional heroes and favored the new needlessly violent comics that were spawned by Image. No one cared about Superman. That kind of justice was supposedly tried and tired. Basically, it's about classic necessities that shouldn't change about comics versus the ones that cross the line. Superman versus Magog. Old versus new.

Duh. I mean, duh. Since nothing actually HAPPENS in Kingdom Come besides sitting around feeling good about the Classic Unities of Comicdom, those themes are all as obvious as a sledgehammer to the forebrain. So yes, I understood it.

Moreover: I understand it and DON'T appreciate it, as the themes were executed poorly and ham-handedly in the service of an extremely boring story. I judge by what I read, not by the author's intent. I hate Spawn, I hate Image, I hate those "extreme" early 90's comics. But that doesn't meant I have to get off on tedious, photorealistic Superman-as-Christ pornography.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
Chesapeake Silt said:
In a few years nobody will even remember Kingdom Come. We'll be talking about New Frontier instead. And that's a good thing.

New Frontier has been very nice so far. Very few people seem able to write Batman well.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
FnordChan said:
Just so you know, if you read Watchmen and skipped all the text chapters, you're really missing the point.

FnordChan

This is why I mentioned the lack of attention spans earlier in this thread. Claiming to have read the Watchmen by essentially skipping whole bodies of very relevant text, well, how can you seriously discuss it?

Wellington said:
It just doesn't really seem important enough to make much of an impact on the story

Wellington

Come on, man! You're killing me! :)
 

Matlock

Banned
JackFrost2012 said:
Superman-as-Christ

That was one of the things that annoyed me about KC, only because they found it necessary to not only reference it 19 billion and one times, but they had a panel that even had him looking like Christ hanging on the cross (early on, on his "farm").

Although it was pretty amusing in a way.
 

Bowser

Member
I just finished Watchmen as well, but I think I'll need to reread it to get the whole bit. I'll admit that I skipped a lot of the text parts (I read the first three, the one on Dr. Manhatten [something about physics], and the one with Viedt describing expansion of the toyline and etc., but I didn't read the rest). They felt like a chore, to be honest. But maybe that was because I felt the book was very sluggish in the beginning and decided that the rest of the text parts would be the same.

The feeling I get from the book is...mixed. On one hand, I was bored out of mind with the first three or so chapters. As Wellington said, it starts out great with the murder of Blake. But after that, I felt that the book just droned on and I found it really hard to read. So hard, in fact, that after Chapter III or IV, I put down the book and left it for about a week. It kind of took (for lack of a better word) courage to pick it up and finish it. However, towards the end of the book, I really liked it. I loved Dr. M's origin chapter and the one with him on Mars, the chapters dealing with Rorschach, and the ending chapters. I liked the way Dan and Laurie's relationship progressed (although I was a bit miffed when Dr. M returned and swiped her away from him [but the ensuing chapter of Laurie presenting the case of the human race was wonderful]) and I loved the irony in what Viedt was doing, about how he created the "alien invasion," killing [half of New York] as a means to reach peace.

Overall, I think the book is very good, and while right now I'd say I was a bit disappointed, I may change my opinion by rereading it once more and reading the text bits that I skipped over. Even though it sounds like I'm a bit negative, I don't regret spending the time to read the book at all. It was an enjoyable experience, and I can't wait to reread it and pick up on the parts I missed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom