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[Power Pro]

I'm in the middle of Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition right now, and early in the game, I was impressed with game willing to kill a character like Fiora so early in the game. Like, alright...let's break the trope and kill the main characters childhood friend right away, alright. There were blood on the claws, so I took it as not seeing a body as them just keeping that T rating....

Of course anyone who plays these games knows that Fiora doesn't stay dead, and comes back as a mech lady in the party. Ugh, fine...I guess it was important for the plot that she lived. One character I thought for sure was dead was a minor character Vangarre who had a killer mustache, but got a tank thrown at him, and he seemed totally dead. We didn't see him in town, or the rest of the game...dude's dead. But then he just shows up in chapter 14 again during this big battle. I'm still working on the game, but I expect everyone will be perfectly happy at the end of this, and Fiora will magically get her human body back, because god forbid we ever feel sad, or bittersweet.

This is a trend I see a lot in JRPGs. Characters refuse to stay dead when they should. It's fucking annoying honestly. Death gives stakes, and tension. I remember really really being disappointed with Final Fantasy 4 when I finally finished that game, because it pulled this shit also. I remember when I first played it, one of the most memorable moments in FF4 was when Palom and Porom turned themselves into stone to save the party's live...I thought this was a good dramatic moment in the game, and their sacrifice really makes it work...but then the game fucks it up because yay, they show up, we're fine...we didn't actually kill ourselves. Way to ruin the dramatic moment.

I can't think of any specific examples again right now, but even though I love the genre, and most of my favorite games are JRPGs....this is something I notice I see too much. Death is rarely permanent, and characters keep coming back just to have their happy reunion moments, completely killing the dramatic tension that a character's death can bring to a story. They need to cut that shit out.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

It's called bad writing and happens everywhere, not only in JRPG.

Cheap deaths are as bad as cheap resurrections.

 

[IAmRei]

I'm in the middle of Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition right now, and early in the game, I was impressed with game willing to kill a character like Fiora so early in the game. Like, alright...let's break the trope and kill the main characters childhood friend right away, alright. There were blood on the claws, so I took it as not seeing a body as them just keeping that T rating....

Of course anyone who plays these games knows that Fiora doesn't stay dead, and comes back as a mech lady in the party. Ugh, fine...I guess it was important for the plot that she lived. One character I thought for sure was dead was a minor character Vangarre who had a killer mustache, but got a tank thrown at him, and he seemed totally dead. We didn't see him in town, or the rest of the game...dude's dead. But then he just shows up in chapter 14 again during this big battle. I'm still working on the game, but I expect everyone will be perfectly happy at the end of this, and Fiora will magically get her human body back, because god forbid we ever feel sad, or bittersweet.

This is a trend I see a lot in JRPGs. Characters refuse to stay dead when they should. It's fucking annoying honestly. Death gives stakes, and tension. I remember really really being disappointed with Final Fantasy 4 when I finally finished that game, because it pulled this shit also. I remember when I first played it, one of the most memorable moments in FF4 was when Palom and Porom turned themselves into stone to save the party's live...I thought this was a good dramatic moment in the game, and their sacrifice really makes it work...but then the game fucks it up because yay, they show up, we're fine...we didn't actually kill ourselves. Way to ruin the dramatic moment.

I can't think of any specific examples again right now, but even though I love the genre, and most of my favorite games are JRPGs....this is something I notice I see too much. Death is rarely permanent, and characters keep coming back just to have their happy reunion moments, completely killing the dramatic tension that a character's death can bring to a story. They need to cut that shit out.

Not all RPG have that moment, popular RPG might be, but lot of RPG not having resurrections like that. But again, yea, the worst I ever feels are FF4, in FF5 and 3, 7, 9, dead stay dead.
I recall SMT SJ, also had people stay dead, but "the dungeon" revive them, as another person with same body. hmm, i gotta play that game again someday

 

[Lokaum D+]

Man, Xenoblade DE, i have almost 34 hours into It and never left Colony 9, the ammount of fetch quest this game has is higher than an MMO i played in my life, droped the game cause of It.

 

[SamusXAran89]

Man, Xenoblade DE, i have almost 34 hours into It and never left Colony 9, the ammount of fetch quest this game has is higher than an MMO i played in my life, droped the game cause of It.

Why don't you just play the story?

 

[Power Pro]

Man, Xenoblade DE, i have almost 34 hours into It and never left Colony 9, the ammount of fetch quest this game has is higher than an MMO i played in my life, droped the game cause of It.

Yeah...the side quests in this game have been overwhelming. Especially for a person like me where I just can't progress until I get rid of every ! on the map.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

I'm in the middle of Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition right now, and early in the game, I was impressed with game willing to kill a character like Fiora so early in the game. Like, alright...let's break the trope and kill the main characters childhood friend right away, alright. There were blood on the claws, so I took it as not seeing a body as them just keeping that T rating....

Of course anyone who plays these games knows that Fiora doesn't stay dead, and comes back as a mech lady in the party. Ugh, fine...I guess it was important for the plot that she lived. One character I thought for sure was dead was a minor character Vangarre who had a killer mustache, but got a tank thrown at him, and he seemed totally dead. We didn't see him in town, or the rest of the game...dude's dead. But then he just shows up in chapter 14 again during this big battle. I'm still working on the game, but I expect everyone will be perfectly happy at the end of this, and Fiora will magically get her human body back, because god forbid we ever feel sad, or bittersweet.

This is a trend I see a lot in JRPGs. Characters refuse to stay dead when they should. It's fucking annoying honestly. Death gives stakes, and tension. I remember really really being disappointed with Final Fantasy 4 when I finally finished that game, because it pulled this shit also. I remember when I first played it, one of the most memorable moments in FF4 was when Palom and Porom turned themselves into stone to save the party's live...I thought this was a good dramatic moment in the game, and their sacrifice really makes it work...but then the game fucks it up because yay, they show up, we're fine...we didn't actually kill ourselves. Way to ruin the dramatic moment.

I can't think of any specific examples again right now, but even though I love the genre, and most of my favorite games are JRPGs....this is something I notice I see too much. Death is rarely permanent, and characters keep coming back just to have their happy reunion moments, completely killing the dramatic tension that a character's death can bring to a story. They need to cut that shit out.

Absolutely one of my least favorite things about FF IV - the near constant "seems like that's the end of X - oh wait here they are again.." that goes on in that game. It's so aggravating.

 

[Power Pro]

Absolutely one of my least favorite things about FF IV - the near constant "seems like that's the end of X - oh wait here they are again.." that goes on in that game. It's so aggravating.

Yeah. I wanted to love that game so much, but pretty much every character you thought died comes back. And the villain is not really the villain. It honestly shocked me that the game has any reverence after seeing how poorly written it is.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Why don't you just play the story?

Cause of my OCD, i cant have "!" on the map and just leave it behind

 

[Herr Edgy]

It's called bad writing and happens everywhere, not only in JRPG.

Cheap deaths are as bad as cheap resurrections.

Except it's far from cheap here, it's fundamental to all the threads of the story.
If the emotional reaction to the turning point of the journey is "meh why she alive" then I'd suggest you stop playing, at least for story reasons

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

not a jrpg thing, a big problem every where

and not the case for party member 7 in Xenoblade though, that was well executed and planned around from the start

 

[Power Pro]

not a jrpg thing, a big problem every where

and not the case for party member 7 in Xenoblade though, that was well executed and planned around from the start

Yeah, I kinda get that was the intention for her...it was when Vangarre shows up out of no where in 14 chapters later that this subject just came up to me again.

 

[Liopleurodon]

I love when characters are resurrected.

They are useless when they are dead.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Fiora is just a KOS-MOS reference.

 

[Merkades]

The epitome of this problem is the "Trails in the ..." series. It is maddening how much they use this trope, it got so bad I just started assuming anyone who died actually lived and anyone who was introduced as dead, even for centuries, is actually alive and well. I might actually dislike this more than I dislike Rean. Btw, this happens probably in the double digits, it is a lot.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

The whole fakeout death trope and the "important character presumed dead…. and on an unrelated note, who's this mysterious masked character that just showed up?" thing is so tired and cliche.

Any time a character "dies" in a JRPG it has no emotional impact on me because I'm just assuming they're coming back to life later.

I almost feel relieved when I find out that a character is dead dead, just so I don't have to see this stupid cliche again.

 

[mèx]

99% of times definitive deaths are not that impactful anyway, so I don't mind. And this is not a problem unique to JRPGs.

Man, Xenoblade DE, i have almost 34 hours into It and never left Colony 9, the ammount of fetch quest this game has is higher than an MMO i played in my life, droped the game cause of It.

While I found it fun to complete the affinity chart in Xenoblade 1, the side quests can be safely skipped.

That's not the case with XB2 and XB3 though, they improved a lot there, specifically with Blade Quests and Hero Quests.

 

[Pejo]

I love when characters are resurrected.

They are useless when they are dead.

Disagree.

I think the most reasonable answer is that most JRPGs are written primarily for kids/teenagers, and people that age (hopefully) don't have enough life experience to properly understand the ramifications of death, loss, etc. It's also a difficult subject for writers to do justice with. Asspull resurrections and cheating death is just an easy way to dig into emotion a bit without having to go all in or bring down the mood of the game if that's not what it's mainly about.

Then again, I remember as a kid hearing the rumors that you could bring Aerith back in FF7 and hoping it was true.

 

[Judge Magister]

Then again, I remember as a kid hearing the rumors that you could bring Aerith back in FF7 and hoping it was true.

Your kid self may still have his wish completely fulfilled...

 

[Rran]

I agree although it happens outside of JRPGs too. Take it away Star Wars:

I'm not saying there aren't places where it can't be used well, but there are probably more examples of it being done to quickly manufacture drama. FFIV, Fire Emblem Awakening, Tales of Symphonia, Suikoden II does it to an extent (although it's got some legitimate death too). Persona 4 does it. Even Chrono Trigger!

FFVI and Mother 3 generally commit to legitimate deaths. FFVII does. DQV does. DQXI sort of does depending on how you look at things.

I think it's so common because writers want the shock and emotional punch of a character death...but also don't want the long-term commitment of loss that comes with it. So you get this situation a lot. It's apparently hoping the player's relief at seeing who survived will outweigh the feeling of being emotionally manipulated.

Sometimes it works.

 

[fbnaulin]

Yeah, it's bad.

Same reason why the new ending in Radiant Historia: Perfect Chronology should be considered post-commentary, instead of canon.

 

[Sakura]

I prefer when characters don't die. I want happy endings.

 

[The Cockatrice]

aside from From Software I thinnk pretty much all JRPG's have generic tropes. I don't think Japanese writers enjoy taking risks.

 

[TintoConCasera]

aside from From Software I thinnk pretty much all JRPG's have generic tropes. I don't think Japanese writers enjoy taking risks.

yeah I'm currently watching One Piece and that shit gets me insane. Fake death after fake death, all the time. Gets to a point where it makes you question the actual deaths lol.

I hate that trope and prefer when a character actually dies, adds a lot of drama. Like in Final Fantasy V, that shit was kino.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Disagree.

I think the most reasonable answer is that most JRPGs are written primarily for kids/teenagers, and people that age (hopefully) don't have enough life experience to properly understand the ramifications of death, loss, etc. It's also a difficult subject for writers to do justice with. Asspull resurrections and cheating death is just an easy way to dig into emotion a bit without having to go all in or bring down the mood of the game if that's not what it's mainly about.

Then again, I remember as a kid hearing the rumors that you could bring Aerith back in FF7 and hoping it was true.

I don't buy it.

日本における代表的なゲームの男女比や平均年齢がこちら

調査会社GEM Partnersが延べ18万人を対象に行った調査データをもとに日経エンタテインメントが集計した「推し活MAP」で、各エンターテインメントの男女比や平均年齢等が明らかになっている。調査データはあらゆるエンターテインメントを対象...

kultur.jp

According to this poll, average age of Japanese DQ/FF gamers is 42 years old, the highest of any series listed. I wouldn't be surprised if Tales of, Persona, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Legend of Heroes fanbases are close to that.

I think it's so common because writers want the shock and emotional punch of a character death...but also don't want the long-term commitment of loss that comes with it. So you get this situation a lot. It's apparently hoping the player's relief at seeing who survived will outweigh the feeling of being emotionally manipulated.

^ yup, this is it. Just one of many lazy storytelling cliches that are so prevalent in shounen anime.

 

[Chukhopops]

I think it kinda works in Xenoblade because a) the story explains what the humans in robots are used for and b) there is enough time between the death and resurrection of Fiora for it to be a surprise.

It's dumber in Rebirth when Tseng gets skewered front to back by Sephiroth, does his agony speech and then just walks away. A pure wtf moment.

 

[mèx]

aside from From Software I thinnk pretty much all JRPG's have generic tropes. I don't think Japanese writers enjoy taking risks.

From Software has not made a single JRPG (in the past couple decades at least).

Western games use tropes as much as Japanese games. You just notice them less because you are used to them.

 

[The Cockatrice]

From Software has not made a single JRPG (in the past couple decades at least).

all their souls games are jrpgs because I dont like to refer to jrpg as the boring generic term. It's a japanese role playing game. Sticking to its old generic definition is stupid these days, as genres have evolved considerably.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

From Software has not made a single JRPG (in the past couple decades at least).

Western games use tropes as much as Japanese games. You just notice them less because you are used to them.

Look at Clair Obscur. Finally a French developer came along and made the "JRPG for grown ups" that many of us desperately wanted for decades, and they were handsomely rewarded for it.

Spoiler

and they even had the balls to kill off the the leading man less than halfway through the game.

Not saying that western games don't have tropes, but that is a lame attempt at deflecting criticism away from lame storytelling that plagues many JRPGs

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Man, Xenoblade DE, i have almost 34 hours into It and never left Colony 9, the ammount of fetch quest this game has is higher than an MMO i played in my life, droped the game cause of It.

I enjoyed the game a lot, but worse than just the MMO fetch quests was the throwaway dialogue you have to button mash through when embarking on one and when returning. I've never seen a single player game attempt to waste so much of the player's time like that.

 

[cireza]

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

 

[mèx]

Look at Clair Obscur. Finally a French developer came along and made the "JRPG for grown ups" that many of us desperately wanted for decades, and they were handsomely rewarded for it.

Spoiler

and they even had the balls to kill off the the leading man less than halfway through the game.

Not saying that western games don't have tropes, but that is a lame attempt at deflecting criticism away from lame storytelling that plagues many JRPGs

In my opinion that's a great example of a pointless death only used to jump start the narrative in the short term. By the end it's completely irrelevant. I also think the writing of Expedition 33 is all over the place but that's another discussion to have.

I'm not deflecting, Western games truly have as many tropes as Japanese games. To make a recent example, KCD2 has plenty of characters that are walking tropes, with the difference that the writing in KCD2 is basically one of the best in gaming. Tropes can be good.

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

Y-yes.

 

[captainpat]

It's not really a JRPG thing it's a "media-for-kids/teens-thing" which is the group most jrpgs are for. If you want more perma-death it's best to stick to the ones going for a more mature audience.

 

[Synless]

You know what game recently had the balls to kill off a main character and keep it that way? Expedition 33.

They need to follow this direction. What happens in JRPG's with supporting cast deaths and mains is exactly why I hate FF4's story, which I consider a major offender.

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

Yes, I think it's one of the best overall. Great series and great lore.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

? These games have hours and hours of dialog and cutscenes. If you're not supposed to play these games for the story, someone should've told that to the writers.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

I play them because I love drinking a shot whenever Shulk goes FOR THE POWER OF THE MONADO AAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[struggler_guts]

Go play persona 3 OP

 

[Hudo]

Some people are playing Xenoblade games for the story ?

Yes. They are among the better ones in the JRPG genre, imho.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

aside from From Software I thinnk pretty much all JRPG's have generic tropes. I don't think Japanese writers enjoy taking risks.

FromSoft games are just misery porn.

 

[GateofD]

I think it kinda works in Xenoblade because a) the story explains what the humans in robots are used for and b) there is enough time between the death and resurrection of Fiora for it to be a surprise.

It's dumber in Rebirth when Tseng gets skewered front to back by Sephiroth, does his agony speech and then just walks away. A pure wtf moment.

this for me, like sure I could use some permanent death. But I focus more on what the narrative reason is. Instead of "oh they came back" and nothing thinking anymore else about it.

How is Xenoblade Chronicles X though, does it have the share the same kind of theatrical themes as the other chronicles games even if they're not directly related.

 

[Danjin44]

Spoiler: Valkyrie Chronicles 4 spoiler.

 

[cireza]

Yes. They are among the better ones in the JRPG genre, imho.

And how do you feel about Xeno X then ? Because I might be simply missing something and be wrong.

 

[Danjin44]

And how do you feel about Xeno X then ? Because I might be simply missing something and be wrong.

I only speak for myself I highly enjoyed XCX but I enjoyed story of XC1-3 waaaay more.

 

[cireza]

I highly enjoyed XCX

I love the game, the lore, the various systems etc... but the story is absolutely abysmal bad.

 

[Danjin44]

I love the game, the lore, the various systems etc... but the story is absolutely abysmal bad.

I personally agree with that but for my taste I enjoyed story telling in numbered Xenoblade games more.

 

[cireza]

I personally agree with that but for my taste I enjoyed story telling in numbered Xenoblade games more.

Got this, I will give these game a better chance in the future and admit I was in the wrong here. Xeno X was certainly not representative of the other games.

 

[Hudo]

And how do you feel about Xeno X then ? Because I might be simply missing something and be wrong.

Xeno X is the weakest of the Xenoblade games when it comes to a main story line because it's more focused on you just doing shit in the open-world. Xeno X has a real open-world, not just connected bigger regions like XBC 1-3. Some of the side-stories/quests in Xenoblade X are neat. That being said, Xenoblade Chronicles X DE added things to tie it in with the other xenoblade games.

 

[Danjin44]

Got this, I will give these game a better chance in the future and admit I was in the wrong here. Xeno X was certainly not representative of the other games.

Xenoblade X very different game not just how it structured but also how it told it stories.

Numbered Xenoblade might have big maps but they are not open world and story told in traditional way compare to XCX.

With being said Xenoblade games are anime ass anime games (kinda why I love it)….(especially XC2) if you don't like that there might be a chance you won't like XC 1-3 games either.

 

[Hudo]

With being said Xenoblade games are anime ass anime games (kinda why I love it)….(especially XC2) if you don't like that there might be a chance you won't like XC 1-3 games either.

That's a good point. Xenoblade games are essentially Shonen manga. You have a teenage protagonist saving the world with usually a happy ending. But among these types of stories, the Xeno games are among the better ones.

 

[March Climber]

Disagree

Counterpoint: The show's plot went down a very odd and steep cliff the minute this character and his motivations left.

If a character is so important that they are an anchor to the game, book, or show's well-being (and everything suffers afterwards including weak secondary characters and/or bad writing in general), then there's an argument for not letting them die if they're carrying the property and plot.

Otherwise I agree with the point of the thread.