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[Overseer]

No, I couldn't have. Besides which, I wanted to address the particular issue of the relationship between my religious beliefs and my beliefs vis-a-vis homosexuality, because many people assume that anybody who "disagrees" with homosexuality must do so solely due to their religious convictions, which is not the case.


Btw, hi Futami. XS+ was no dope or anything, but he never was notably eloquent-- not that you are, either, but I've seen your particular brand of verbal diarrhea for years now, and can spot it a mile away. Besides which, XS+ was never virulently atheist, nor was he fond of personal attacks, as is your wont.


You only think that I said "nothing" because it is your own thought process which is hollow and insubstantial. I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how "the question of God is not immune to fundamental scientific scrutiny", as seen in this thread, by the way. Because you pretty much "said nothing in 4 pages" in that thread.




I've never in any way been personally affected by homosexuality as a "concept" or by homosexuals themselves. Btw, "personally against" wasn't a phrase I used, but one that levious used. Still, I think you're quibbling-- "personally against" and "personal disagreement with" are, for all intents and purposes, synonymous when used in common speech. Saying that people can only "take issue" with homosexuality if they've been personally affected by it in some way is pretty foolish imo. Does that logic extend to everything else in life that one can "disagree" with? Seems quite the untenable stance...

Sorry, should of directed the comment straight to levious, I know you didn't say that. That was in response to what he/she said. I guess I really can't make an honest attempt to say what you should or shouldn't do because I have never been put in that situation.

 

[XS+]

No, I couldn't have. Besides which, I wanted to address the particular issue of the relationship between my religious beliefs and my beliefs vis-a-vis homosexuality, because many people assume that anybody who "disagrees" with homosexuality must do so solely due to their religious convictions, which is not the case.


Btw, hi Futami. XS+ was no dope or anything, but he never was notably eloquent-- not that you are, either, but I've seen your particular brand of verbal diarrhea for years now, and can spot it a mile away. Besides which, XS+ was never virulently atheist, nor was he fond of personal attacks, as is your wont.


You only think that I said "nothing" because it is your own thought process which is hollow and insubstantial. I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how "the question of God is not immune to fundamental scientific scrutiny", as seen in this thread, by the way. Because you pretty much "said nothing in 4 pages" in that thread.

I'm the same XS+, Loki. Sorry to disappoint you.

Now, if your "disagreement" with homosexuality is not a case of religious opposition, why, then, are you personally against it? Is it because you're not gay? If that's it, then your "disagreement" with homosexuality is understandable. I have a similar disagreement with necrophilia. It just isn't my thing. Couldn't you have spared us your monotonous missive and simply said, "I'm not gay. But I respect homosexuals, nonetheless."?

If I'm mistaken and your "disagreement" is rooted elsewhere, then, please, explain yourself.

 

[Cool]

This girl sounds perfect. Too bad I already have a girlfriend.

ROFL I knew something like this was coming.

 

[Saturnman]

Why's everyone attacking Loki? If only more people who were "personally against" homosexuality could be as open-minded as he is.

They are not attacking him, well most of them aren't. They're demanding answers from him but he's dancing around the issue.

 

[Loki]

They are not attacking him, well most of them aren't. They're demanding answers from him but he's dancing around the issue.

You do realize that I'm under no obligation to flesh out each and every one of my beliefs, right? Especially when each time I do so ends up being a multi-day affair. Like I said, if that means that some people are going to conclude that I don't have any non-religious reasons for my beliefs regarding this issue, then that's their right, and I'll have to deal with that consequence; I would hope, however, that my candid elucidation of said reasons in the past, as well as my general manner of discourse and thinking, speak against such a conclusion. If not, then what can I say?


"Demanding answers from him"-- doesn't that strike you as a bit odd in general?

 

[XS+]

:lol

 

[Saturnman]

Well, if we have to read all those paragraphs that you write, what do we get in return? So that's why I demand answers. You owe them to us, in concise form.

We let you babble and occasionally, you give us real answers. Sounds fair to me. Now get to it, Brooklyn boy.

 

[etiolate]

Someone posted in another thread about how they dumped someone because she didn't believe in souls, and he felt 'she could never know love' because of it.

Hey I didn't dump her. It was nothing ever serious enough to "dump". It was just something that would be a problem down the road. I don't casually date. If JC is someone who doesn't casually date then I can understand, but I still suggest sticking it out and seeing how much its really an issue.

edit: oh I see she has issues now

 

[Fresh Prince]

I read the perfect thread.... or so I thought!!

Nobody said this thread was perfect....

 

[Loki]

Well, if we have to read all those paragraphs that you write, what do we get in return? So that's why I demand answers.

Umm, you don't have to read my "babble", you do realize. Many people don't.

 

[maharg]

I want to hear the explanation as well. You keep alluding to making your point clear in past posts, but I don't remember it, and I've seen a lot of posts by you. Seems like you always skirt around it. I would be interested in hearing it because you ARE the type of person whom I can believe might be able to point to some rational and realistic reasons.

You don't have to let it become a multiday affair, just let it out and then don't respond to jackasses ;P

 

[speedpop]

This thread topic is misleading! I was expecting a transexual turn-out grandieur!!

I am not reading all 6 pages unless there is a form of male-finding-out-female-is-really-male relationship crisis issue.

 

[KingV]

I haven't posted about any personal issues on GAF since Valentine's Day (some of you may recall that thread). This is partially because not much has happened and partially because I didn't think it was interesting enough to share.

So here's the deal. I was walking my dog last week and I came across this girl walking her dog too. We both had the same kind of dog (yellow lab). We got to talking and we started realizing that we had a lot in common. We just really clicked. I asked her if she was seeing anyone and if she wouldn't mind giving me her number so that I could call her up sometime. She said she wasn't and she told me her number. Luckily it was only a couple digits off from my number so it was easy to remember.

Two days later I gave her a call and asked her if she wanted to go out and she said that she was tired and that she didn't feel like going out but she suggested that I stop by her place (which is only like 2 blocks away from mine). I show up at her place and she invites me in and gives me a tour. The first thing I notice in her living room is a PS2 and GC. I asked her if she lived with her brother and she was like "I get asked that a lot, those are mine." So I'm already thinking to myself:

"attractive?" Check.
"dog lover?" Check.
"gamer too!?!" Check.
"Holy crap...this is the perfect woman for me."

We talked some more and come to find out we both went to the same college too. A this point its starting to get really freaky how much we have in common. I left her house a few hours later and we agreed to go out on Saturday. We went out. Things were great.

I went back to her house last night and then IT happened. The news was on and it mentioned how the supreme court had elected to let the states decide on the gay marriage issue. Then she blurts out "I can't believe they aren't going to do something about that. Those liberals are demoralizing the country. Thank God George Bush is the president. He wants to ammend the constitution."

My heart litterally SANK! Now granted, I do live in an upper-middle class neighborhood where the majority of people are republicans so I shouldn't have been too surprised... but hearing those words come out of her mouth was shocking. A short time later I told her I wasn't feeling well and I headed home.

So I'm thinking about calling her tonight and telling her how I feel about what she said. I want to explain to her that politics is something that I am very passionate about and that I don't think we should take the relationship any further because quite frankly I don't think this is something I could get over... plus I'm sure that at some point I'd have to meet her family and they would make me sick too. Relationships are difficult enough sometimes without having politics get in the way. I just don't see how having a long term relationship with someone who disagrees with me on these issues could ever work out. This girl just might be the female version of Ripclawe.

Is this a good idea, a bad idea? Should I tell her a BS excuse instead of just being totally up front and telling her how I really feel? Thoughts?

My girlfriend and I disagree on politics quite a bit, but it's never been an issue, Check that with some of my best friends. It's not worth it to ruin what could be awesome over political differences.

 

[Dilbert]

I want to hear the explanation as well. You keep alluding to making your point clear in past posts, but I don't remember it, and I've seen a lot of posts by you. Seems like you always skirt around it. I would be interested in hearing it because you ARE the type of person whom I can believe might be able to point to some rational and realistic reasons.

I'm going to agree with maharg (and others) here. I don't ever remember you presenting such a position, and I've love to hear it.

As for the brevity issue: At the risk of offending you (which is not my intent), learning how to express something in clear, succinct language is a NECESSARY skill in life. I'm lucky to get two minutes of time from my boss on some days, and that's my entire window to pass along critical information and get their approval/position on pressing issues. Business email works exactly the same way -- if someone is reading on a BlackBerry, it had better get to the point in about three lines, or they are going to skip over it.

This isn't abstract advice, by the way -- this is based on personal experience. Early in my career, I had a habit of writing long, detailed emails...which frequently went unread. Thankfully, I got some feedback from my mentors and was able to change. I know you can too, and it will help you down the road.

So...waiting for your rationale.

 

[Maxwell House]

This isn't just a difference of political opinion, though. She is a homophobe and actually said "fucking fags." This isn't about her opinion on tax reform or national health care. This is about her being a narrow minded biggot. There is a big difference there. I know I could never date anyone who ever used the words fag, nigger, chink, etc. in a hateful way.

 

[Baron Aloha]

Jesus, this thread is still going? :lol :lol :lol

 

[maharg]

You'll be glad when she starts begging to have you back, you give in, then she cheats on you with your friend, you kick her out, everyone says you have balls of steel, you think about taking her back, people start posting ackbar pictures, you take her back, and everyone mocks you mercilecly for it.

Oh yes, you will.

 

[Zaptruder]

Loki, maybe for your sake, it's best if you write out several books on your beliefs and how it incorporates the whole spectrum of life and existence.

Then you can print those out and hand it to people and then you can argue among the people that bother reading those books.

 

[Xenon]

Great move to bail dude. Any fucking neo-con who would say fucking fag is a fucking worthless waste of flesh.


Or... since your first impression was good you could have discussed this with her more. Maybe find out why she thinks that way. Maybe her last boyfriend left her for another dude. She could have been spoon fed that shit from the crib and is just to ignorant to know any better. Maybe she just said it to say it and doesn't really harbor any hatred. Or maybe she does. You'll never know..... You might even had changed her mind. Or at least been able to help her understand the other side of the argument a little more. I find it funny how people can discard people so easily of one aspect of their personality. I know that intolerance of intolerance is the way it has to be. Its amusing that both groups in that eqaution handle the people they are intolerant of in the same manner.


understanding -1


I personally am drawn to people who have different views on things than me. This is one of the reasons I keep coming to GAFs. If I wanted to hear an echo I'd go to a cave.

 

[Dan]

My girlfriend and I disagree on politics quite a bit, but it's never been an issue, Check that with some of my best friends. It's not worth it to ruin what could be awesome over political differences.

There are political differences, and then there are ideological differences. The former is a hell of a lot easier to reconcile or overcome than the latter, and from what JC10001 has posted, these are most definitely ideological differences. She doesn't sound like someone who would even be remotely interested in reconciling anything anyway, which is something that a lot of people in this thread seemed to gloss over. Even if he wanted to, someone who thinks "fucking fags" and "assholes" like John Kerry should get the hell out of the country doesn't seem like someone interested in any form of understanding, tolerance or reconciliation.

I'm amazed this thread is still going.

I personally am drawn to people who have different views on things than me. This is one of the reasons I keep coming to GAFs. If I wanted to hear an echo I'd go to a cave.

No doubt, but uh, I'm not sure who would want to hear this girl's views under ANY circumstances.

 

[Xenon]

No doubt, but uh, I'm not sure who would want to hear this girl's views under ANY circumstances.

Why not? To just label her a bigot and dismiss her is akin to what she is doing to the gay community. Granted there are differences in severity. The result however is the same both sides walk away without really trying to understand the other.

 

[Dan]

I'm not dismissing her. I'm not telling her to get the hell out of the country. I just wouldn't want to personally deal with shit like that. I appreciate people with differences, and all the girls I've dated have been wildly different from me, especially in religious and ethnic terms. We can still relate though because there's some decent understanding and tolerance in there, even if we don't remotely agree. However, if you have somewhat strong convictions and disagree with the following, I don't see on what level you can really relate to a person who thinks "fucking fags" and people like John Kerry should leave the country, or a person who explodes at the mention that you might not appreciate what they had to say. I don't see why you would want to deal with that.

My relationships are not political or ideological campaigns to change someone's perspective on life. That's not what I'm looking for in a girlfriend, and obviously JC10001 isn't either.

 

[AstroLad]

Why not? To just label her a bigot and dismiss her is akin to what she is doing to the gay community. Granted there are differences in severity. The result however is the same both sides walk away without really trying to understand the other.

God damn that's fucking retarded logic. And that's an insult to the retarded community.

 

[luxsol]

Or... since your first impression was good you could have discussed this with her more. Maybe find out why she thinks that way. Maybe her last boyfriend left her for another dude. She could have been spoon fed that shit from the crib and is just to ignorant to know any better. Maybe she just said it to say it and doesn't really harbor any hatred. Or maybe she does. You'll never know..... You might even had changed her mind. Or at least been able to help her understand the other side of the argument a little more. I find it funny how people can discard people so easily of one aspect of their personality. I know that intolerance of intolerance is the way it has to be. Its amusing that both groups in that eqaution handle the people they are intolerant of in the same manner.


understanding -1

Words of wisdom.

To just label her a bigot and dismiss her is akin to what she is doing to the gay community. Granted there are differences in severity. The result however is the same both sides walk away without really trying to understand the other.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with Xenon. I've experienced this first hand. I once met a guy who said a lot worse things than this girl (whom this thread is about). I talked to him to understand where he was coming from and found out that he was just repressed. After talking with him for several weeks he let out that he was attracted to guys. And months later, he started dating another guy.
And no, i wasn't trying to hit on him or anything, i just found what he said to be amusing and questioned him further on his beliefs.

These people shouldn't be discarded unless they're just hopelessly stubborn or you're just not into caring about it and ignoring their side (which is pretty dangerous). People can say a lot of bad things but they're just words and don't always represent their true view. It's only when it's like talking to a brick wall that it should be stopped or discarded (whatever).

 

[Xenon]

I just wouldn't want to personally deal with shit like that.

I think most of the world agrees with you. I'm not saying its wrong but in the end it doesn't help the situation. Its not what he should have done, just what he could have done.

God damn that's fucking retarded logic.

as is you attempt to refute it but you comment made me laugh. My point is that both sides dissmiss the other for a what the feel is a moral flaw. Now I agree that the bigot is the one who is wrong in this situation. But the end result is the same. Neither of them make any effort to understand the other person.



One thing that strikes me as interesting about this thread is how it changed from the first post to when JC added more details later. At first he said that he had a problem with her political stance with no mention of derogatory comments. Later he comes back with a much more inflamed account. I’m not saying it didn't happen but there is a big difference between the two accounts. It reminds me of when I fight with my wife. We'll be going at it and she say something like "You said I cant cook." I'll think back and remember that I said she burned the roast because she had the temp wrong. In her mind however all she would hear is "YOU CANT COOK" She takes what I said and comes back with what she thought I meant. Shit happens all the time =( I smell that a little here.

 

[Socreges]

If anyone is wondering how Xenon can delude himself so...

I'm just saying now the [Daily Show] is biased. It is. It's beyond obvious that they pick guests, conduct interviews, and create skits to make an ass out of Bush & Co.

:lol

And just some food for thought:

+1 Bush

GO BUSH!

Bush wins!!


GOD WHY ARE PEOPLE ON INTERNET FORUMS SO STUPID!!!!!!
WHAAAA!
WHHAAAAAA !
WHAAAAAAAAA !

I think [Bush] provides stable leadership, something I could not see in Kerry. I also agree with his position on fighting terror. I like the fact that he is trying to curb medical lawsuits. His health care plan is actually feasible. And most importantly.... he doesn't try blow smoke up my ass!

 

[karasu]

Why not? To just label her a bigot and dismiss her is akin to what she is doing to the gay community. Granted there are differences in severity. The result however is the same both sides walk away without really trying to understand the other.

So what, he's supposed to spend 5 years of his life trying to change her or something? Walking away from a bigot has nothing to do with a lack of understanding. I don't even understand how you can say that it's the same as hating gay people. That's ridiculous.

 

[luxsol]

So what, he's supposed to spend 5 years of his life trying to change her or something? Walking away from a bigot has nothing to do with a lack of understanding. I don't even understand how you can say that it's the same as hating gay people. That's ridiculous.

No one knows how long it would take to change her and apparently, he doesn't have to considering she says she was doing it just to impress him or something. That's probably worse though... or great, depending on how you view it. According to her, she just wanted to impress him by going to the extreme.

No one in this room really knows the girl, not even the guy who ditched her. Who knows what her real beliefs are. Not everyone who spouts bigotted remarks will defend them to the death or are even serious about them. Everyone is just jumping to conclusions about her and the guy who bailed just wanted to avoid any problems there might be. A good choice for him, but not everyone would so quickly give up.

 

[karasu]

That's all fine and good, but I think it's silly to tell someone that something is inherently wrong with them because they don't devote a good measure of their lives to changing the hearts and minds of those who say hateful things to gain the approval of those around them. He isn't her father or her priest, that is not his obligation.

 

[EviLore]

Loki, dude, if you're willing to type out thousands of words that barely skim the issue at hand, perhaps you should instead spend the time deeply considering your views and trying to come to distinct conclusions. I'm a pretty young fellow, but I've certainly had enough time to gather my thoughts on the subject.

What the hell is rationally "disagreeable" with homosexuality, besides the obvious that it's not reproductively constructive? Even then, we're faced with population crises all over the world. Consenting adults of sound mind feel an attraction to the same sex and act on it to sate their physical and emotional needs. No one is hurt, unlike pedo. No incestual defects are birthed. Some male homosexual sex acts might be prone to spreading some diseases easier than vaginal intercourse, but hetero couples have plenty of anal too. If we're to disregard faith-based doctrine as a legitimate argument, then what are you left with? I'm very curious.

You have an opportunity to prove yourself here. Capitalize on it, or earn a respect -1 token...to go along with your new tag ;b

 

[Azih]

The result however is the same both sides walk away without really trying to understand the other.

Well if one side doesn't care about trying to understand the other then it's foolish to persist and you have to make a judgement as to when that is the case.

 

[Xenon]

That's all fine and good, but I think it's silly to tell someone that something is inherently wrong with them because they don't devote a good measure of their lives to changing the hearts and minds of those who say hateful things to gain the approval of those around them. He isn't her father or her priest, that is not his obligation.

Show me where I said anything that remotely resembles this. Read the part I wrote about how people filter things to see what you just did. =P

Well if one side doesn't care about trying to understand the other then it's foolish to persist and you have to make a judgment as to when that is the case.

I never said that this is what he has to do. I just wanted to offer a different perspective on things. I mainly wanted to note that it was kind of funny that even though the bigot is the person who is wrong in the situation that both sides tend to treat the other in the same manner. This pretty much removes any chance of change in the situation. If you take this event as a microcosm of the way an these two groups interact. You can see that it will be a long time before there is any progress. I’m not judging anyone. I just want to note that fact. The one thing a person has over a bigot is they know exactly why they hate the person. With a bigot it is usually driven by fear and ignorance. These things can be changed.

 

[karasu]

Show me where I said anything that remotely resembles this. Read the part I wrote about how people filter things to see what you just did. =P

You said that by equating it wih bigotry.

 

[Xenon]

You said that by equating it wih bigotry.

First that’s not what I said. I said that the two groups act the same by slapping a label on them and not bothering to go any deeper, be it fag or bigot. I’m not saying that bigots and those that judge them are equally wrong. I'm just saying they deal with this single aspect in the same way. so I’m not equating it with bigotry.

Second, That comment has nothing to do with your original assertion that I said that people MUST do this and if not then they are not good people. I also never said he had to dedicate months, weeks or even days. But pretending to be sick to get out of there, asking people on a message board what I should do and calling back the next day probably wouldn't have been the way I would have played it. I would have called her on it then and there and tried to size up if she really had a deep hatred for gays. Then maybe try to find out why. I would make a decision from there. But that’s me.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Booooo Loki, don't abandon your explanation...you spent ample time protecting it from becoming an open insult to concerned posters. Now enlighten us with the argument.

 

[Saturnman]

The GA OT forum rises against Loki:

 

[luxsol]

That's all fine and good, but I think it's silly to tell someone that something is inherently wrong with them because they don't devote a good measure of their lives to changing the hearts and minds of those who say hateful things to gain the approval of those around them. He isn't her father or her priest, that is not his obligation.

Judging from what the original poster said, changing her heart and mind wouldn't be all that hard if she already was willing to please him. =P

Anyway, if I found someone to be "the perfect girl" i probably would want to change or at least understand that one aspect about the person I don't like.
Like Xenon said, not everyone must do this and it isn't right or wrong. It's up to the person in the situation in how to deal with it.
Personally, I wouldn't be able to handle any girl who screams or curses like some people have brought up in this thread. It's either embarassing or hilarious (maybe both, just not at the same time tho) and I'd just end up mocking or laughing at her. Girls like the one this thread is about are amusing and would lead to some nice conversatoins if handled right. Like the closet gay guy I mentioned, I thought he was very cute even when he spouted his ignorance. When I challenged his beliefs it almost turned me on as he slowly started to accept that being gay isn't wrong.

 

[BuddyC]

How is this still going?

 

[BuddyC]

Point.
Counterpoint.
Bump.

or

Game.
Set.
Match.

Your choice.