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[64bitmodels]

In 2020, moon studios unveiled their most gorgeous game to date: Ori and the Will of the Wisps. Only needed 80 people to do it, too (and the first game was made by 10.) And it was boasting a level of detail only matched by Rayman Legends in the past.

then, in 2021 and 2022, Kena and Stray were indie games and yet their visuals are some of the most beautiful stuff the PS5 has to offer... made by a small team of indie devs in france for Stray, and 15 people for Kena.

Fortnite Unreal Creator 2.0 is allowing people to use Unreal Editor to create stunning assets and gameplay... in fucking fortnite. Any kid can go out now and make a stunning game in Fortnite.

And not too long ago, everyone had a big shock with Unrecord, the big bodycam FPS shooter that blew everyone away because of low genuinely lifelike it looked.

and now, we just got Trepang2, which is another great looking game made by an indie dev just called "trepang studios"


More and more indie games are coming out that look identical to big AAA teams spending their time and effort on a gigantic blockbuster production, all thanks to UE5's magic allowing even the biggest nobody to make incredible works. In 2017 something like A Hat in Time (which is still a very good looking game, but clearly on par with a late gamecube/early 360 title) took a kickstarter and years of work to develop, and now we've got indies outdoing them at every minute.

I have a theory that in the next 10 years, more and more of these graphically impressive projects from independent studios will come out, and as they slowly start to compete more and more with the AAA studios in graphics, people will eventually lose interest in AAA games because they get tired of the safe formulas AAA produce, the greedy practices, high prices, worker abuse, etc etc etc. Why support the big AAA live service junk when you can play the Indie that's just as good graphically and far superior gameplay wise?

I mean, making beautiful environments in UE5 is pretty damn fast in comparison to other programs... Just look at what people could accomplish in 90 days.


In any other engine this work would take devs years and here it is being easily replicated in under 3 months by a bunch of passionate artists. How will AAA compete when the same stuff they're working on takes 6 years and a bunch of delays to come out broken and unfinished, when they can't innovate due to ballooning budgets, when they're sexually harassing their employees and getting into scandals?

I know i sound crazy here and i expect a great majority of the site to disagree with me. I want to put the idea out there and- as usual- spark discussion.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Sorry, but no - the strength of AAA games is not just graphical fidelty, it is production value!
Indie studios may be able to create something that looks like AAA, but at the cost of limited content!

 

[64bitmodels]

Indie studios may be able to create something that looks like AAA, but at the cost of limited content!

I can understand that but at the same time many people are already complaining that modern AAA games are too long, because the gigantic budgets and 70 dollar price tag means that developers have to add shittons of content into their game to keep players playing and to justify that big ol price tag. Indies may have less content sure, but a return to the 10-15 hour singleplayer campaigns of the 2000s (or even the 1-5 hour campaigns of the early 90s) wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[CGNoire]

I think indie devs willingness to fully utilize and leverage Quixel assets has led to the demos often looking better than most AAA enviroments do.

The real question is why do AAA games not do the same? Some do but the vast majority seem to create the bulk of there assets from scratch even if they still look worse.

 

[UnNamed]

The reality is very different actually.

We shouldn't talk about how many people are working on a project, but how much that project costs and the amount of time to make it.

Indie games are not that much indie as they use to be. The cheaper indie project can cost a few million dollar to make, and thousand of (unpaid) work.
Every project has a cost even if you make it in your spare time, and many of those demo are made "at loss", with months of work, and zero money just to promote their work.

Also, people mistakenly think games are just graphics, so you create some assets, and here you have your game. But developing a game is also create mechanics, plan the settings, imagine the levels, tuning the envinorments and gameplay, work on the coherence with the artstyle, etc.

That's why I hate when people say "modders are better than lazy devs". Modders are just tuning a huge amount of work some people already did for them, spending a huge amount of time, for free. Turn all this stuff in payed work and you'll have the same issues all games companies have.

 

[Bloobs]

 

[ScHlAuChi]

I can understand that but at the same time many people are already complaining that modern AAA games are too long, because the gigantic budgets and 70 dollar price tag means that developers have to add shittons of content into their game to keep players playing and to justify that big ol price tag. Indies may have less content sure, but a return to the 10-15 hour singleplayer campaigns of the 2000s (or even the 1-5 hour campaigns of the early 90s) wouldn't be a bad thing.

10-15 hour SP campaign still requires alot of content - take "A Plague Tale Requiem" for example which was made by only 70 people in France.
By AAA standards Asobo is a small indie team, but do you really think the majority of indie studios consisting of 5-10 people would be able to do the same? I dont think so!

 

[64bitmodels]

10-15 hour SP campaign still requires alot of content - take "A Plague Tale Requiem" for example which was made by only 70 people in France.
By AAA standards Asobo is a small indie team, but do you really think the majority of indie studios consisting of 5-10 people would be able to do the same? I dont think so!

you raise a very good point there! IMO that's sort of a testament to how much better development has gotten though. You have to consider that while also making Requiem, Asobo were working on Flight Simulator and Innocence, their first plague tale game, came out only 3 years before Requiem. And now they're going to be making a Flight Sim sequel in 2024.

Asobo Studio may be more AA than Indie, but their output for only 70 people and the quality that comes with it is insane. While they should be commended, i also think it has to do with just how much easier and faster game development is now, that an 70 developer team can make games as fast as Insomniac and Capcom.

 

[nemiroff]

Your points are pretty good, but..

Asset flipping is easily noticeable in games, you can't just replace artistic value by downloading modules and plugins willy nilly.

Trepang plays well but its visuals looks like garbage.

Indie is also not so indie anymore. AFAIK (correct me if wrong) Stray was made by a team of up to ~28 developers

 

[Pakoe]

And you find out that graphics aren't even that important.
In the last few months I've been enjoying indie titles that aren't graphically that amazing, but are amazing in the gameplay department.
I've always been a gameplay>graphics person, even with a top of the line PC it never really was that important to me. The last few years in gaming made this even more clear to me.

 

[theStartupSound]

I would say, you have a point with games from indies looking much better than before, sometimes even more impressive than AAA games.

And also that the chance of a highly innovative or strange game concept getting through is much more likely when it’s not coming from a big studio.

I also think that a single indie dev or a small team can be much faster because they don’t have all these corporate structures which slow you down and where some decisions get made by people who don’t care about the art form.

But it is pretty hard to finish a game when you have not much experience or standard processes. So this is the part where many games disappear or getting released in a very unpolished/buggy state.

So yeah, when they get it through the finish line in a good state, I think indie games are a big competition for AAA. And I would like that, because the safe formula of the most AAA games is pretty boring.

But then there is also a part of the indie market which has its own safe formula: Can we please stop with these generic 2d pixel art and the “we talk pretty much but not with voice overs, we use text boxes instead” games? They bore me the same way as uninspired AAA games.

 

[hyperbertha]

I think an indie game will be able to match the visuals and presentation of games like starfield and outerworlds.

 

[Wildebeest]

Wow, just one random guy made this! (A team of 80 people including industry veterans with support of a long-established publisher made it)

 

[winjer]

Game engines like UE5 and middleware, can help small indies to close the gap, but AAA studios will always have the advantage of creating more assets, more motion capture, more voice acting, etc.
And then there is the technical side, a AAA studio can afford to spend more on optimization. For example, the Coalition was able to optimize UE4, even better than Epic did.
Unfortunately, most AAA studios choose not to spend money optimizing their games. But at least they have the budget if ever they choose to.

 

[rofif]

Stray is genuinely fantastic looking and playing.
But then you launch up ff16 or similar big AAA game and it's in another dimension.
It's not only graphics. it's the whole production value

 

[Ballthyrm]

If AAA don't compete on graphical fidelity anymore as you said, they will find another way to make themselves wanted.
They did that because it was the cheapest way to fight the concurrence.

Gamers have often wanted graphical fidelity over everything else so that what the market provided.
It has always been a dumb race if you want my opinion.

One can hope that now that the field has been evened out we will see people fighting over stuff that actually matters, like gameplay.

 

[Rickyiez]

I like indie games don't get me wrong, but they can only get so far. Let me know again when indie game reaches the content level of Witcher 3, FF16, TLOU2, Bloodborne or Elden Ring. Until then, /thread

 

[K2D]

 

[BootsLoader]

I highly doubt that CDPR or Naughty Dog rely only on graphics.

 

[StueyDuck]

i mean these indie games that look amazing are usually a really big team of talented artists (or outsourced)

it's not far off what AAA games use to be.

they are essentially "AA"

 

[ArtHands]

Its nice on consoles, but there are countless of these releasing on PC every week

 

[Ballthyrm]

it's not far off what AAA games use to be.

This period never existed, we just remember the good games and forget 90% of the crap they served at the time too.
It is the same with every other type of entertainment

 

[Fabieter]

you raise a very good point there! IMO that's sort of a testament to how much better development has gotten though. You have to consider that while also making Requiem, Asobo were working on Flight Simulator and Innocence, their first plague tale game, came out only 3 years before Requiem. And now they're going to be making a Flight Sim sequel in 2024.

Asobo Studio may be more AA than Indie, but their output for only 70 people and the quality that comes with it is insane. While they should be commended, i also think it has to do with just how much easier and faster game development is now, that an 70 developer team can make games as fast as Insomniac and Capcom.

You miss that most of these studio's have work done by contractors and support studios. Last of us part 2 was made by 2000 people despite naughty dog "only" having 500 while also working on other games.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Sadly, the truth is that for most people it seems the columns are flipped.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I have to disagree here. For starters, there is more to visual fidelity than graphics, and when a project is trying to cut corners its very obvious (Trepang2 ib the OP for example has every character masked, thats so they don't have to make facial animations). Another thing you have to consider is that the budget for a lot of these games that look good isn't exactly small.

I like indie games don't get me wrong, but they can only get so far. Let me know again when indie game reaches the content level of Witcher 3, FF16, TLOU2, Bloodborne or Elden Ring. Until then, /thread

If that content doesn't include high visual fidelity, i'd say indie games often have more content than your average big budget title. Crosscode has a 50-100 hour campaign filled with unique content, games like Disco Elysium or Kenshi are massive RPGs, not to mention the stuff that can be played essentially forever like Factorio.

 

[Three]

I somewhat agree with you and it's not just UE but middleware in general improving drastically too but AAA has an eye for detail that smaller teams dont. Things like clipping in animations, better mocap, spending more time on little details when creating within the engine in general. Smaller teams mean more shortcuts still and that "that's good enough" due to team size and time constraints will always be there.

 

[Fabieter]

Thing thing is the right makes the left even more impactful .

 

[KXVXII9X]

Wow, just one random guy made this! (A team of 80 people including industry veterans with support of a long-established publisher made it)

This bugs me a lot when people say that.

 

[Trilobit]

Interesting post, OP, while I agree with some of the stuff you mentioned I don't think graphics are the only strength of AAA. Gameplay and content are still so above the quality of indies. Something like RDR2 could never be made by indies. And Stardew Valley always felt like a poor imitiation of Harvest Moon to GBA.

 

[artsi]

No matter what kind of engine there is, show me an indie team that creates a blockbuster like FF16 and we'll talk.

 

[thuGG_pl]

Where is my indie Elden Ring then?

 

[64bitmodels]

Gameplay and content are still so above the quality of indie

Many indie games can have gameplay good or even better than AAA. There are many indies I know that iterate beautifully on their inspirations.

AAA and Indie are fighting on other terms besides gameplay, that being level of polish, graphics, prod values like many people stated, etc

 

[Porticus]

This take shows ignorance and a lack of understanding regarding videogame production.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Interesting post, OP, while I agree with some of the stuff you mentioned I don't think graphics are the only strength of AAA. Gameplay and content are still so above the quality of indies. Something like RDR2 could never be made by indies. And Stardew Valley always felt like a poor imitiation of Harvest Moon to GBA.

Take invalidated. RDR2 gameplay design is a major atrocity against humankind.

 

[Trilobit]

Take invalidated. RDR2 gameplay design is a major atrocity against humankind.

If RDR3 has you running over enemies with the added "+10 ammo +20 dollares" or over killed animals "+1 pelt +5 venison" I'll pull my hair out! I want them to go even further in their realism. Let me sharpen my knife, let me take the carcasse to the butcher before I get my meat parts!

 

[Guilty_AI]

If RDR3 has you running over enemies with the added "+10 ammo +20 dollares" or over killed animals "+1 pelt +5 venison" I'll pull my hair out! I want them to go even further in their realism. Let me sharpen my knife, let me take the carcasse to the butcher before I get my meat parts!

Realism isn't even the major issue with it. Its the utter lack of consistency of everything.

Heck take that very same realism as an example. You can't carry more than a couple of guns and one pelt, yet your satchel is almost bottomless when it comes to miscellaneous items. Mass murdering innocent people made your karma bad? No problem, just go around greeting randoms and releasing fish you caught.

Its like there was no thought whatsoever put into the game mechanics and systems, they just kept throwing whatever came into mind.

 

[64bitmodels]

And you find out that graphics aren't even that important.
In the last few months I've been enjoying indie titles that aren't graphically that amazing, but are amazing in the gameplay department.
I've always been a gameplay>graphics person, even with a top of the line PC it never really was that important to me. The last few years in gaming made this even more clear to me.

I can understand, i personally agree. Graphics do not make or break a game for me, it's usually the art style.

But the biggest drawback for indies in many peoples eyes are the lacking graphics, everything looks pixellated and dated to many people and that's enough to turn off a major portion of people who otherwise would love these types of games. But we're now in this new age where indie/AA developers are getting access to better tools that enable them to make amazing looking games once again.

Stray is genuinely fantastic looking and playing.
But then you launch up ff16 or similar big AAA game and it's in another dimension.
It's not only graphics. it's the whole production value

I can understand production value when it comes to content, afterall bigger budget equals bigger team and the potential for a bigger game.

But what else does it really exist for? Indies can have well animated cutscenes and great voice acting too, well made UIs and all that other stuff that contributes to the premium feeling of a AAA game. Mocap isn't THAT expensive these days seeing how it's a technology that's been readily available for 20 years, and it's only going to get cheaper thanks to advancements in full body tracking from the VR space

 

[captainpat]

Play Bright memory infinite. It's graphically fidelity dunks on most AAA games but you can tell easily it was made by a small team.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I wish there was more space for midrange games, AA 8-10 hour decent graphical experiences for 40 dollars or so

 

[mdkirby]

For me the big factors are; meta human paired with ai voices like muli, this will enable small indie teams to tell interesting stories with actual characters. You all too often see text only indies or ones that avoid characters entirely with a pretext of “on a mysterious dead and barren world”. The new tools should help remedy that tired narrative trope.

 

[mcjmetroid]

I think you're mostly right, the gap is narrowing between AAA Devs and indie. They're not stuck in the 8bit generation anymore not that there's anything wrong with that.

The only thing stopping them really is the length of the game and the content at the moment. There are also times you can tell it is indeed an indie game like a quirky mechanic that might have been resolved with more testing etc.

But I find myself enjoying a game more and more that does one single thing very well than trying to do everything and not being good at anything that a lot of AAA games are doing.

No matter what kind of engine there is, show me an indie team that creates a blockbuster like FF16 and we'll talk.

Ya but how many AAA blockbusters on this scale are there? A lot of people's counterargument to this poster is to list the best open world games of the last 10 years and say " see see.. indie Devs can't do this".

Well yes but most AAA studios can't either. Be fair here...

 

[diffusionx]

A lot of these indie and "indie" games that go for an AAA-type graphics level have a "hire this man" look and you can see where corners are cut. Like Kena, it kind of looks the same start to finish, and it's using all the usual UE4 tricks you see in every game. It's fine, but you're not going to mistake it for a Nintendo platformer.

 

[64bitmodels]

he best open world games of the last 10 years

it's especially baffling when you consider the general open world burnout many people here have. Outside of the select few games like elden ring and TOTK people here really don't like open world games... yet they still try to say that Indie games are lesser for not having tried to go for that scope that people here are clearly not fond of anymore

 

[peronmls]

Yep. All engine and no talent when it comes to showcase indie games and UE. I thought people played games for the substance it holds? At least I do. Indie devs like to make a small $2.99 mechanics and think they have a brilliant video game. I’ll never buy indie games. No room on my self.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Sorry, but no - the strength of AAA games is not just graphical fidelty, it is production value!
Indie studios may be able to create something that looks like AAA, but at the cost of limited content!

First post nails it.

 

[damidu]

kind of agree that you can make great looking game easier now with aa sized teams. plaque requiem being good example.

unfortunately great looking vistas don’t automatically translate to great looking character models, animations, or rich gameplay systems , which are equally important aspects of game presentation.
plaque requiem again being the example

 

[existensmaximum]

Another strength is budget, polish and high quality motion capture. The animation and motion capture is what sets the styles of games apart imo, and what can easily make games look cheap, even if the graphics is generally nice.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

you raise a very good point there! IMO that's sort of a testament to how much better development has gotten though. You have to consider that while also making Requiem, Asobo were working on Flight Simulator and Innocence, their first plague tale game, came out only 3 years before Requiem. And now they're going to be making a Flight Sim sequel in 2024.

Asobo Studio may be more AA than Indie, but their output for only 70 people and the quality that comes with it is insane. While they should be commended, i also think it has to do with just how much easier and faster game development is now, that an 70 developer team can make games as fast as Insomniac and Capcom.

Asobo is over 250 people, most of them work on Flight Simulator!

 

[TrueLegend]

Original RE or Dark Souls, UE 5 40 USD. Endame. That's what they should strive for, but you def need originally that hits the spot.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Sorry, but no - the strength of AAA games is not just graphical fidelty, it is production value!
Indie studios may be able to create something that looks like AAA, but at the cost of limited content!

I wouldn’t say AAA games are packed with content. It’s usually just open world copy/paste activities.