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IGN: Madden 2006 preview
- Thread starter DMczaf
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FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i've heard the scripted argument before but i'm not really sure what people mean. i'm not sure how a game where you pick the plays and run them can be scripted
I love madden and sometimes it is scripted. Or at least it feels that way.
And what I mean by scripted is that sometimes when I snap the ball, no matter what plays have been called, shit will happen that I wont be in any control of. Random shit like one of my O linemen just taking a freaking vacation and letting me get sacked or just missing a block. And other shit like the defensive line making that weird "ROAAGGH!" during the snap that gives them the power to come crashing through the O line like paper.
Basically, shit that, no matter what play I've called, I cant stop.
Oh, then there are the totally scripted events during a play action play that I'm sure everyone knows about.
OK, maybe I'm wrong in saying that the play action plays are scripted. But there is something wrong with them. It takes way too long to gain control of the QB after you snap the ball because of the animation of him faking the handoff to the running back. It feels like Im watching a mini movie.
And if someone from the defense is breathing down your neck about to sack the crap out of you, you cant do anything. You just have to watch because you have to wait until the fake handoff movie is done.
Maybe not scripted, but maybe a bad game design?
I dont know. There are just some times in madden where if the comp wants to do something, it'll do something. No matter what you call.
And if someone from the defense is breathing down your neck about to sack the crap out of you, you cant do anything. You just have to watch because you have to wait until the fake handoff movie is done.
Maybe not scripted, but maybe a bad game design?
I dont know. There are just some times in madden where if the comp wants to do something, it'll do something. No matter what you call.
I don't know if anyone else uses that term, but me and my friends use that to describe something in a sports game where you don't have total control over the action. This is why I am so in love with Winning Eleven, it just seems like you can do anything in the game and that you have total control over everything the player does.
Probably not doing the best job of explaining this though. I gotta run to school now though, so hopefully another WE fanatic or someone who understands what the hell I am talking about can explain it better.
Probably not doing the best job of explaining this though. I gotta run to school now though, so hopefully another WE fanatic or someone who understands what the hell I am talking about can explain it better.
OK, I see what you're saying, but my question is how would you do it differently? Would you force the player to manually carry out the fake themselves? Or are you asking to be able to abort the fake midway?
Play Action fakes in real life are meant to take a while to develop and are vulnerable when the defense is blitzing. My problem with Play Action is that the fake doesn't work well enough! Defenders either don't go for the fake at all, or they completely sell out on it, and this is where Madden AI is fatally flawed, imo. Defenders don't adapt as the game goes on, you can literally run the same cheesy play all game long and the defense doesn't change it's ways at all. I'd like to see a blitzing linebacker hesitate when the PA fake occurs, rather than just continueing towards the QB at full speed. If I run the same sweep play over and over I want the AI to start cheating towards it, which sets up PA, reverses, counters, bootlegs, etc.
Play Action fakes in real life are meant to take a while to develop and are vulnerable when the defense is blitzing. My problem with Play Action is that the fake doesn't work well enough! Defenders either don't go for the fake at all, or they completely sell out on it, and this is where Madden AI is fatally flawed, imo. Defenders don't adapt as the game goes on, you can literally run the same cheesy play all game long and the defense doesn't change it's ways at all. I'd like to see a blitzing linebacker hesitate when the PA fake occurs, rather than just continueing towards the QB at full speed. If I run the same sweep play over and over I want the AI to start cheating towards it, which sets up PA, reverses, counters, bootlegs, etc.
Yeah, AI like that would rock in madden. And that abort a play action would rock too.
I agree, play actions should leave you in a bad position for a small amount of time (and if you're caught in a blitz, that should be your ass) but the way madden does it just isnt very fun. In real football play actions are quick and loose. In madden its way too tight and limited. But with some changes, it could be perfect.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
you guys have never seen the linebackers or safeties bite on the PA pass? wow, we are playing 2 different maddens then. just the other night i was running, running running it down DM's throat, then i called a PA pass and that bitches entire D bit on the PA and i had horn open by 5 yards. sad part is i overthrew him 
but i do agree that the PA animation takes too long to develop. they need to tighten it up. and you say there are some plays where there is nothing you can do about it, well welcome to random plays in professional football. people miss assignments in real life. do you think after tim rattay got sacked for the 7th time against the Jets he said "oh what a crock of shit this game is scripted" no.
it's not that i don't understand what you are trying to say, i just don't agree with it. there is nothing you can do about a lineman running over your LT? yeah there is. have a hot read always waiting, that is the sign of a good offensive playcaller. problem i see with a lot of people playing online is they say "ok i'm going to call all streaks". ok... that means every receiver on the field is running deep. now what happens when i blitz 2 guys off the corner, and you have no one to go to because they are all running deep patterns? maybe you should have audibled your RB to go hang out in the flats JUST IN CASE!
anyways, i dont feel like madden is scripted. i think that on any play any random thing can happen. this is the exact opposite of "scripted". the game is very consistent in its play mechanics and matchups, but every now and again someone is going to blow a coverage, get beat off a block, or some other unpredictable thing, just like in real life
but i do agree that the PA animation takes too long to develop. they need to tighten it up. and you say there are some plays where there is nothing you can do about it, well welcome to random plays in professional football. people miss assignments in real life. do you think after tim rattay got sacked for the 7th time against the Jets he said "oh what a crock of shit this game is scripted" no.
it's not that i don't understand what you are trying to say, i just don't agree with it. there is nothing you can do about a lineman running over your LT? yeah there is. have a hot read always waiting, that is the sign of a good offensive playcaller. problem i see with a lot of people playing online is they say "ok i'm going to call all streaks". ok... that means every receiver on the field is running deep. now what happens when i blitz 2 guys off the corner, and you have no one to go to because they are all running deep patterns? maybe you should have audibled your RB to go hang out in the flats JUST IN CASE!
anyways, i dont feel like madden is scripted. i think that on any play any random thing can happen. this is the exact opposite of "scripted". the game is very consistent in its play mechanics and matchups, but every now and again someone is going to blow a coverage, get beat off a block, or some other unpredictable thing, just like in real life
Spectral Glider
Member
Why do I get the feeling that if somebody can't gain 15 yards on every single play, they get pissed off and blame it on the "shitty AI" or "bad programming."
FMT, don't misunderstand, PA does work sometimes. This is just my gut feeling from my experience, but it feels like it's all or nothing. For example a safety will either pretend like nothing at all happened and stay glued to his coverage assignment, or he'll buy the fake 100% completely and his man will be open by 20 yards.
The enhancements I'd like to see are a) there should be some middle ground (i.e. hesitation) and b) the chances of the player falling for the fake should have to do with the success of recent plays and how much faith he has in his teammates. If the safety can trust his Linebackers to make a play against the run, he'd be more likely to stay back and in his coverage responsiblities. If I'm running the ball down the D's throat, the safety would be more likely to crash in to stop the run.
I dunno, maybe I'm just dreamin'
The enhancements I'd like to see are a) there should be some middle ground (i.e. hesitation) and b) the chances of the player falling for the fake should have to do with the success of recent plays and how much faith he has in his teammates. If the safety can trust his Linebackers to make a play against the run, he'd be more likely to stay back and in his coverage responsiblities. If I'm running the ball down the D's throat, the safety would be more likely to crash in to stop the run.
I dunno, maybe I'm just dreamin'
I get the random stuff. I know that a play cant be 100% perfect everytime (just like real life). But, to me, the random stuff is TOO good or bad. Its not like something small happens like a defensive lineman getting through the line maybe a second quicker than 'normal', but the big things where it seems the whole offensive line just breaks down and leaves you ass out for a big loss.
The random stuff doesnt really give you a chance to adapt. Its just, "BOOM! We're in your face and you're going to lose 5 yards no matter what."
It needs more flexibilty so that even if a ton of shit goes wrong and you're stuck in a broken play, that you still have the control to get out of it. Or AT LEAST not lose yards. (Unless the defense just owned you.)
And no, I dont want to gain 15 yards every play.
Yeah, the really good point Slo brings up is PA vs. blitz. I see defenders in coverage bite fairly often, but the one thing I never see is it affecting anyone who's coming in on a blitz. Not even by a moment's hesitation, even if he's a player who would be blind to the handoff (or lack thereof)
FrenchMovieTheme said:
You guys are misunderstanding what I meant when I said the game is scripted at certain points. And remember I think Madden destroys the competition when it comes to football games, I just want more control over what happens on screen, like in WE. Probably not possible because the games are so different, but I want so much control over the game that I control every aspect of the pass, the reciever's route, everything. And to some extent you can do those things in Madden, I just want even more control over it. That is the direction I hope Madden takes next gen, though I don't really blame EA for continuing to go in the direction they are going, because when it comes down to it, Madden is still an incredibly fun game to play. I just want more control over everything, though maybe casuals might not like that change if it happens.
When I play Winning Eleven I really get a feeling that literally anything can happen on almost any play. I can play the same exact teams in Winning Eleven with a friend in a exhibition 10 times in a row, and nothing will occur the same in any of those games. I want that same feeling in Madden. Maybe the games are too different for it to happen, but I would like for them to try it, or VC, or whoever.
Fifty, I don't come into Madden threads dissing Madden, I am just trying to convert some other sports game fans to the greatest game on the planet (for now).
Still, if my 'advertising' gets too annoying I will try and cut down on it.FrenchMovieTheme
Member
you want MORE control over everything? i'm not understanding what you can't control at the line of scrimage. before the snap of any play, you can do all of the following:
* Change a receivers route to basically anywhere on the field
* Motion the receiver to strong/weakside, this will also detail whether the defense is playing zone or man
* Have receiver stay in to block
and that's just WR. i'm still not understanding what more you want to control. football, more than any other sport on the planet, is a team game where you are just 1 person that is part of a team. i guess you mean you want to be able to play any position on the field (which you can already do) or that you want to somehow control every position on the field at once? i'm not sure, but that doesn't sound very feasible or fun.
you are losing me dude. you are telling me that if you play 49ers Vs. Dolphins every game, the outcomes/plays are nearly identical? take a look at the GA madden league to see how untrue that is amongst us. i played malley a season back and in our first game (49ers vs. chiefs) the final score was 17-13. the next game we played the final score was (i believe) 49-45. i understand you aren't me and etc etc. but what you are describing (variety in game styles and results) is all there in madden. but again maybe i am misunderstanding.
i have winning 11 for xbox and i like the game a lot. i have loved this series since it was internation superstar soccer on N64. it is likely tied for the greatest multiplayer (on one console) sports game ever (w/ madden). but i just dont understand why you feel it is not scripted. soccer is a different game with different components.
Wellington
BAAAALLLINNN'
Enough with the damned Winning Eleven talk, wtf. :lol
I agree with Slo on his points on the PA. The animation should be tightened up a bit, we all agree on that. But I will also step to bat on the blitzing players going straight to the QB and not even flinching at the handoff. I know that Malley, Slo, and Fifty play secondary as their user controlled athlete and as a human are susceptible to a PA fake. I too, when I play line, am susceptible to the PA. I often bite for the run unless it's an obvious passing down and tackle the man that I think has the ball. Not the case with AI players. This could easily be fixed by realting it to awareness in 2006.
However I disagree that PA plays are all or nothing. I've had PA's where the defender doesn't bite but the receiver ends up beating the guy outright on the play.
I think about scripting, what they mean is that they just catch an endless amount of bad breaks. Like for example, my games against DM are scripted. There's no point to the first three quarters. BS turnovers, BS stops, etc. Other than the stupid fucking QB fumble shit (and I guess when a ball bounces off of a receivers hands and into a defenders) I have no real problems with turnovers. Just gotta play smart to avoid them. Stops are stops... there are always other play options.
QB Fumble BS - When you are in the throwing motion, ball goes forward after you get hit, and for some QBs it's a fumble, for others it's an incomplete. It's garbage, I don't give a fuck what the carry ratings are, it's clear as fucking day what happened in game. Make the right calls!
I agree with Slo on his points on the PA. The animation should be tightened up a bit, we all agree on that. But I will also step to bat on the blitzing players going straight to the QB and not even flinching at the handoff. I know that Malley, Slo, and Fifty play secondary as their user controlled athlete and as a human are susceptible to a PA fake. I too, when I play line, am susceptible to the PA. I often bite for the run unless it's an obvious passing down and tackle the man that I think has the ball. Not the case with AI players. This could easily be fixed by realting it to awareness in 2006.
However I disagree that PA plays are all or nothing. I've had PA's where the defender doesn't bite but the receiver ends up beating the guy outright on the play.
I think about scripting, what they mean is that they just catch an endless amount of bad breaks. Like for example, my games against DM are scripted. There's no point to the first three quarters. BS turnovers, BS stops, etc. Other than the stupid fucking QB fumble shit (and I guess when a ball bounces off of a receivers hands and into a defenders) I have no real problems with turnovers. Just gotta play smart to avoid them. Stops are stops... there are always other play options.
QB Fumble BS - When you are in the throwing motion, ball goes forward after you get hit, and for some QBs it's a fumble, for others it's an incomplete. It's garbage, I don't give a fuck what the carry ratings are, it's clear as fucking day what happened in game. Make the right calls!
I don't have a problem with how long play actions take to develop in Madden except for when it's a rollout, but I know what to expect when I choose the play.
I find my success with play action just varies. I've experienced the full range of possibilites, where I've been blitzed and subsequently crushed, I've had defenders totally bite on it and get torched, but I've also had them hesitate for a moment, sometimes long enough for me to squeeze a pass in there, but other times they've recovered enough and I fail to read it and get picked off. I don't have any real PA complaints with Madden except for the other day when one CB bit on it hardcore and I had Burress wide open downfield and I didn't notice until it was too late. That's more of an IO error though.
I find my success with play action just varies. I've experienced the full range of possibilites, where I've been blitzed and subsequently crushed, I've had defenders totally bite on it and get torched, but I've also had them hesitate for a moment, sometimes long enough for me to squeeze a pass in there, but other times they've recovered enough and I fail to read it and get picked off. I don't have any real PA complaints with Madden except for the other day when one CB bit on it hardcore and I had Burress wide open downfield and I didn't notice until it was too late. That's more of an IO error though.
Wellington said:
It seems to be getting better, but I think this is a key point as well... I think the game needs to call the game it actually displays through the graphics engine. Nothing more frustrating in single-player than seeing a play, challenging it, seeing conclusive evidence to support your challenge on the replay, and still having the refs fuck it up.
Grr..